Guild Wars 2

I like the design of HoT maps, i even like the overall design of Tangled Depths, however i must acept that it can be a maze at the start and its more than just figuring where to go, first lets check how navegable its after you get the key way points:

- Ley line coalescense give you the overall acces to all the chack regent meta.

- Novus, race, ogre and nuloch waypoints allow you to have acces to the key event parts.

- Once you have the waypoints explorng for hero points, achivments, fun and map completition but its overall navegable.

Then whats the problem?:

The start can be frustrating, the three ways to explorea fter the initial way point include: going for a three or up a tree full of mordrems that its a small maze also or for a bigger maze if you go down.

One thing its to have a map that has tons of things to explore and some or a lot are intrincated, hidden in the weirdest, rarest and difficult to find mazes; another its to have to get for a maze just to get the key/basic elements of the maps.

Thats were Tangled Depths fail, it provides an intrincate map, but at the same the start doesnt allow you to get neither to the meat of the map (meta and events) fast, neither to have the choice to skip the “exploring on the darkests and intrincated depths” to get to it.

Also after that its the part that map skippers have it tough, I have alredy helped 2 friends to get to Dragon Stand because of this.

So what to do about it:

Personally a way to get to the ley line coalecense waypoint could do the trick, that way point its the key to acesing most of the map evets and meta, plus give you an easy way to get to the next map.

In fact, this way point is a reference of how a start to a “Maze map” could be:

Friendly, allowing the players to get acces to more group content faster, without doing the intrincated exploring aif they dont like it; with a “relativly clear” way to get to the next map; and the aluring maze doors waiting for them in some of the corners.

I like TD as it is. The map is supposed to be a challenge that we overcome and TD should be a challenge to navigate until you learn the map.

Or you could go into the cave by the waterfall, dodge two or three mob packs, glide off an edge, and dodge some chak on your way up to the wallows in sw ogre camp. Hop in the wallows, you’re in Ogre lane by the HP. (I have done this multiple times the last two days moving alts through Sign Cutting for PS. It takes a minute, maybe two, to get to the wallows). East along the lane and you get to ley line confluence, from which point you can get pretty much anywhere event related.

DolknowYou:

I prefer it to have a more firendly start because the start doesnt help people getting in it. Its like when you get on a game without tutorial: Swim or sink.

Some of us will swim, but what about the ones that sink?, and the question later its, was the sinking necesary or was there another way to implement this same content?

I go with: “There was another way”.

Donari:

Knowing that requires either you involucrating yourself with the maze and learn, been guided or seen a guide. My point its that that kind of first involvment frustrate/ have anegative hit to the players.

So to the points i put again with what you said, some “solutions” to this first impression could be:

- Implement a gyro that send you to the coalecense way point.

- Make an arrow/poster/sign indicated path made by the Pact to direct troops to an important way point, like the path you stated in your post.

Actually it took me a couple of minutes max to figure out something like Donari did. Your solutions will probably never be implemented (not saying they aren’t good suggestions) and given how simple the solution provided by Donari is, you can see why they wouldn’t be.

General Health.9678:

Actually it took me a couple of minutes max to figure out something like Donari did. Your solutions will probably never be implemented (not saying they aren’t good suggestions) and given how simple the solution provided by Donari is, you can see why they wouldn’t be.

I love people who answer a post about how some players are having difficulty with a subject and the response is “it was easy for me”. Great for you. I’m not sure what your point is tho – the OP said it wasn’t easy for his friends, you calling him a liar? You saying there’s something wrong with his friends cause it was easy for you?

I happen to agree with the OP. I hate TD with a passion. Spend as little time there as possible. I’m glad it’s “easy” for some people. Maybe they enjoy a “tangled” path or maybe they think or see things differently than those of us having trouble. But its like people who enjoy / are good at math. People who don’t enjoy it or aren’t good at it aren’t inferior or have something wrong with them.

I don’t quite understand. We already had a “tutorial” with Verdant Brink and Auric Basin. Both maps introduced the ideas that TD has (Multiple layers, hidden areas, etc) so unless someone hasn’t been to those two maps (I hope they would) then of course they would have trouble.

Djinn.9245:

I love people who answer a post about how some players are having difficulty with a subject and the response is “it was easy for me”. Great for you. I’m not sure what your point is tho – the OP said it wasn’t easy for his friends, you calling him a liar? You saying there’s something wrong with his friends cause it was easy for you?

Whoa.. really? Everyone has the same option of turning left and running in a straight line at a marker. I’m not calling people out for hating TD, there are a lot of people who don’t like it. I’m just saying you can hang a left and run down the middle.. whether you come to that conclusion easily or the hard way or indeed never doesn’t change the fact that you can do this.

I happen to agree with the OP. I hate TD with a passion. Spend as little time there as possible. I’m glad it’s “easy” for some people. Maybe they enjoy a “tangled” path or maybe they think or see things differently than those of us having trouble. But its like people who enjoy / are good at math. People who don’t enjoy it or aren’t good at it aren’t inferior or have something wrong with them.

You aren’t alone in that sentiment but it’s a weird analogy. I hated maths at school until I got a good teacher then I passed the exam in it. I still don’t love math, I would be terrible figuring out fermats second to last therorem let along his actual last one but if someone said to me “look it’s complicated, just remember this formula and write down these things in order to pass your exam” I wouldn’t be all hostile and stuff..

General Health.9678:

I would be terrible figuring out fermats second to last therorem let along his actual last one but if someone said to me “look it’s complicated, just remember this formula and write down these things in order to pass your exam” I wouldn’t be all hostile and stuff..

I don’t see how objecting to someone basically saying “its too bad you’re having a hard time but its actually easy” is “hostile”. And you gave a vague answer about “run down the middle and turn left” or whatever. That isn’t exactly helpful in the huge maze of TD. Do you really think that if someone said “here’s a couple of hints” someone would suddenly be better at math? Nor are some people going to be any better at finding their way around TD. I have gone round in circles and found myself completely at the opposite side from where I was trying to go. It is hugely frustrating and not at all fun to do that while being frozen constantly by Chak or whatever. Never anywhere you can stop and breathe in the Jungle, nevermind alt-tab and consult something about how to get where you want to go.

Djinn.9245:

General Health.9678:

I would be terrible figuring out fermats second to last therorem let along his actual last one but if someone said to me “look it’s complicated, just remember this formula and write down these things in order to pass your exam” I wouldn’t be all hostile and stuff..

I don’t see how objecting to someone basically saying “its too bad you’re having a hard time but its actually easy” is “hostile”. And you gave a vague answer about “run down the middle and turn left” or whatever. That isn’t exactly helpful in the huge maze of TD. Do you really think that if someone said “here’s a couple of hints” someone would suddenly be better at math? Nor are some people going to be any better at finding their way around TD. I have gone round in circles and found myself completely at the opposite side from where I was trying to go. It is hugely frustrating and not at all fun to do that while being frozen constantly by Chak or whatever. Never anywhere you can stop and breathe in the Jungle, nevermind alt-tab and consult something about how to get where you want to go.

It might be easier than you think. Much of the map – notably including the entire event cycle – is contained within the lanes and associated camps and connected by wallows. It’s only the POIs, HPs, and MPs that are hidden in the maze.

If you just wanted to reach all of the waypoints and participate in the events, for instance. Here’s a fairly easy description of how you would go about doing that:

From Order of Whispers WP, head toward the nearby wallow to the south. It’s marked on the map and you can simply walk right over to it. This will take you to a cave. Take the tunnel heading upward and you will find another wallow very close by (again, marked on your map and you can trust the map in this instance by following the path!) to the east that will take you straight to Teku Nuhoch waypoint.

At the waypoint, take the wallow to confluence passage and take the downward path to Rata Novus lane (it’s visible from the wallow so you can’t miss it!). You’ll see a wallow directly across the passage upon entering Rata Novus lane that will take you to the Rata Novus WP.

Take the wallow back to Rata Novus lane and head south down the lane to find the leyline confluence waypoint at the center of the huge cavern at the southern exit of Rata Novus lane.

Take the SCAR lane northeast from the leyline confluence. Hug the right-hand wall of the passage and you’ll run right into a wallow (marked on your map!) that leads straight to SCAR WP.

WP back to leyline confluence. Take the southernmost path west from the confluence. You’ll see a wallow along the way (marked on your map!) that will take you to the ogre camp and WP.

Take the wallow back to Ogre lane and continue west to reach Dragon’s passage WP.

That’s it. That’s all the waypoints in TD and a straightforward explanation on how to reach them. I feel confident that anyone can follow these directions and unlock every waypoint on the map in significantly less time than it would take to unlock every WP on a given core Tyria map.

Don’t believe me? I just tested it out myself and the round trip took 8 minutes. Please show me a core Tyria map that you can navigate that quickly. You guys need to give this map a chance. Seriously.

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

General Health.9678:

I would be terrible figuring out fermats second to last therorem let along his actual last one but if someone said to me “look it’s complicated, just remember this formula and write down these things in order to pass your exam” I wouldn’t be all hostile and stuff..

I don’t see how objecting to someone basically saying “its too bad you’re having a hard time but its actually easy” is “hostile”. And you gave a vague answer about “run down the middle and turn left” or whatever. That isn’t exactly helpful in the huge maze of TD. Do you really think that if someone said “here’s a couple of hints” someone would suddenly be better at math? Nor are some people going to be any better at finding their way around TD. I have gone round in circles and found myself completely at the opposite side from where I was trying to go. It is hugely frustrating and not at all fun to do that while being frozen constantly by Chak or whatever. Never anywhere you can stop and breathe in the Jungle, nevermind alt-tab and consult something about how to get where you want to go.

It might be easier than you think. Much of the map – notably including the entire event cycle – is contained within the lanes and associated camps and connected by wallows.

Until last week I didn’t have the wallows unlocked. I did other Masteries first and only recently had enough points to unlock wallows. I’m sure other people are in the same boat.

If TD is easier with wallows that’s great. But without them it is really terrible.

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

General Health.9678:

I would be terrible figuring out fermats second to last therorem let along his actual last one but if someone said to me “look it’s complicated, just remember this formula and write down these things in order to pass your exam” I wouldn’t be all hostile and stuff..

I don’t see how objecting to someone basically saying “its too bad you’re having a hard time but its actually easy” is “hostile”. And you gave a vague answer about “run down the middle and turn left” or whatever. That isn’t exactly helpful in the huge maze of TD. Do you really think that if someone said “here’s a couple of hints” someone would suddenly be better at math? Nor are some people going to be any better at finding their way around TD. I have gone round in circles and found myself completely at the opposite side from where I was trying to go. It is hugely frustrating and not at all fun to do that while being frozen constantly by Chak or whatever. Never anywhere you can stop and breathe in the Jungle, nevermind alt-tab and consult something about how to get where you want to go.

It might be easier than you think. Much of the map – notably including the entire event cycle – is contained within the lanes and associated camps and connected by wallows.

Until last week I didn’t have the wallows unlocked. I did other Masteries first and only recently had enough points to unlock wallows. I’m sure other people are in the same boat.

If TD is easier with wallows that’s great. But without them it is really terrible.

Wallows require 3 mastery points and 1.5m experience (equivalent to 6 levels using 79-80 as the standard). You may prefer to be able to explore free of the constraints of the mastery system, but I think the effort required to unlock wallows is fairly minimal given that TD is the third map out of four in the expansion. But for the sake of argument, let’s say you don’t have wallows.

Start at Order of Whispers waypoint. Head south, taking the central path that slopes downward into a narrow high-walled canyon. Glide off the shelf and follow the canyon around the bend and straight toward the mastery point marked on the map east and slightly south of Order of Whispers waypoint.

Next to the MP is a waterfall that drops straight down into the end of Nuhoch lane. Hug the left wall of the passage and follow the path upward toward the northern confluence tunnel. The path will fork left toward a cave exit marker on the map that lets out just outside Teku Nuhoch and the associated WP.

Take the cave back to the northern confluence tunnel and follow the other path at the fork leading directly into Rata Novus lane. Take the passage directly across from where you enter the lane into Rata Novus itself and follow the path (marked on the map) to the WP.

Head back to Rata Novus lane and follow it south to the leyline confluence WP.

This time you will take the southernmost passage east rather than the SCAR lane wallow, but it will still take you straight to SCAR camp WP.

WP back to leyline confluence. Head west down ogre lane. Take the passage north (it’s the only one). Head to the far side of the pool and up the vine (once again it’s the only path you can take). Don’t go into the chak hive (you’ll see the clear signs of a bug nest at the entrance), but continue upward. There are two paths when you reach the top of the ramp (the ramp is marked on the map), one of which heads directly east into ogre camp WP and is easy to follow on the map.

WP back to leyline confluence. Follow ogre lane west to the end to find dragon’s passage WP.

Done. Round trip time: 14 minutes. Wallows were 6 minutes faster and cut out a lot of running around. But TD is still easy to navigate entirely on foot and via WPs like a traditional map. In fact, I’d imagine it’s still a good bit quicker to discover all of the WPs than a core Tyria map.

The map is not as convoluted as it appears. As I said before, the waypoints and the events are contained in areas of the map that are fairly easy to navigate. It’s the map completion objectives (HPs, MPs, vistas, and POIs) that are hidden in the maze.

I’d be glad to show you around some time if you’d like. Contact me in game.

Djinn.9245:

And you gave a vague answer about “run down the middle and turn left” or whatever. That isn’t exactly helpful in the huge maze of TD.

TD is a maze but there is a simple path from the entrance that runs right through it ignoring the rest of the maze to the bottom. Sure it’s lined with chak but we can all run faster than centaurs and chak aren’t that scary.

I didn’t feel a detailed description on the forums of how to navigate TD would be much use, there are videos and maps and mapchat to help with that. I’m also more than happy to help anyone round HoT maps (or anywhere else). I play on US servers at UK times.

There already is a guide built into the game to navigate TD. Open your story journal, select Heart of Thorns Act 3, and play. It guides you from the Entrance all the way through to Rata Novus (Which has easy access to the Ley Line Confluence even without any masteries) and the end of the map to Dragon’s Stand. And, as observed – once you’ve made it to the Ley Line Confluence waypoint, you have access to every part of the map that matters.

AliamRationem.5172:

Wallows require 3 mastery points and 1.5m experience (equivalent to 6 levels using 79-80 as the standard). You may prefer to be able to explore free of the constraints of the mastery system, but I think the effort required to unlock wallows is fairly minimal given that TD is the third map out of four in the expansion. But for the sake of argument, let’s say you don’t have wallows.

The issue isn’t “preferring” not to have wallows, the issue is not knowing that they were such a huge deal. Just starting HoT, they looked like a convenience. There is nothing in-game to indicate which Masteries are better than others so I just picked the ones that looked good to me. When I got to TD I discovered that wallows was probably something I should get but I didn’t have the MP at that time so I wandered around without them.

As for TD not being as confusing as I think, I have watched videos before in order to try to get places and even following a video I can sometimes end up in the wrong place because of having to deal with mobs or whatever. It’s not like it is a flat map like Queensdale where if I get off-track dealing with some mobs I can literally still see my destination and go there in a generally straight line. And I’m not saying that I necessarily want that, just that between all the layers, and things blocking your vision, and adding all the really difficult mobs so you don’t have a chance to stop and get your bearings, it can be very frustrating.

Sartharina.3542:

There already is a guide built into the game to navigate TD. Open your story journal, select Heart of Thorns Act 3, and play. It guides you from the Entrance all the way through to Rata Novus (Which has easy access to the Ley Line Confluence even without any masteries) and the end of the map to Dragon’s Stand. And, as observed – once you’ve made it to the Ley Line Confluence waypoint, you have access to every part of the map that matters.

“Having access” isn’t the issue. It is navigating between the WP. Trying to get FROM the WP to a particular Vista, HP, MP, etc. is the challenge. Have you ever heard the saying “you can’t get there from here”? Very frustrating to go to the WP that seems closest to your objective and try to get to that objective that you can actually see only to find that “you can’t get there from here”. In the rest of Tyria you can literally go around your objective until you find a way to it. In HoT since there are many layers that is not the case.

Donari.5237:

Or you could go into the cave by the waterfall, dodge two or three mob packs, glide off an edge, and dodge some chak on your way up to the wallows in sw ogre camp. Hop in the wallows, you’re in Ogre lane by the HP. (I have done this multiple times the last two days moving alts through Sign Cutting for PS. It takes a minute, maybe two, to get to the wallows). East along the lane and you get to ley line confluence, from which point you can get pretty much anywhere event related.

That sounds a lot more convoluted than jumping down the hole near whisper wp into Nuhoch lane. On the way you can grab Teku Nuchoch which also gives you easy access to Rata Novus.

Djinn.9245:

Sartharina.3542:

There already is a guide built into the game to navigate TD. Open your story journal, select Heart of Thorns Act 3, and play. It guides you from the Entrance all the way through to Rata Novus (Which has easy access to the Ley Line Confluence even without any masteries) and the end of the map to Dragon’s Stand. And, as observed – once you’ve made it to the Ley Line Confluence waypoint, you have access to every part of the map that matters.

“Having access” isn’t the issue. It is navigating between the WP. Trying to get FROM the WP to a particular Vista, HP, MP, etc. is the challenge. Have you ever heard the saying “you can’t get there from here”? Very frustrating to go to the WP that seems closest to your objective and try to get to that objective that you can actually see only to find that “you can’t get there from here”. In the rest of Tyria you can literally go around your objective until you find a way to it. In HoT since there are many layers that is not the case.

It’s also not a problem. Learn how the different zones interconnect. Once you have the waypoints and can get through the map to the next, the rest should be actual exploration, not running stupidly at the nearest minimap marker. In HoT, every part of the map is its own little mini-zone connected to others. And the minimap starts making perfect sense once you realize that and see how the zones interconnect.

Sartharina.3542:

Djinn.9245:

Sartharina.3542:

There already is a guide built into the game to navigate TD. Open your story journal, select Heart of Thorns Act 3, and play. It guides you from the Entrance all the way through to Rata Novus (Which has easy access to the Ley Line Confluence even without any masteries) and the end of the map to Dragon’s Stand. And, as observed – once you’ve made it to the Ley Line Confluence waypoint, you have access to every part of the map that matters.

“Having access” isn’t the issue. It is navigating between the WP. Trying to get FROM the WP to a particular Vista, HP, MP, etc. is the challenge. Have you ever heard the saying “you can’t get there from here”? Very frustrating to go to the WP that seems closest to your objective and try to get to that objective that you can actually see only to find that “you can’t get there from here”. In the rest of Tyria you can literally go around your objective until you find a way to it. In HoT since there are many layers that is not the case.

It’s also not a problem. Learn how the different zones interconnect. Once you have the waypoints and can get through the map to the next, the rest should be actual exploration, not running stupidly at the nearest minimap marker. In HoT, every part of the map is its own little mini-zone connected to others. And the minimap starts making perfect sense once you realize that and see how the zones interconnect.

Wow, thanks so much for telling me that my concerns are not actually a problem and that I shouldn’t run stupidly while trying to avoid being killed. Very helpful.

Djinn.9245:

General Health.9678:

Actually it took me a couple of minutes max to figure out something like Donari did. Your solutions will probably never be implemented (not saying they aren’t good suggestions) and given how simple the solution provided by Donari is, you can see why they wouldn’t be.

I love people who answer a post about how some players are having difficulty with a subject and the response is “it was easy for me”. Great for you. I’m not sure what your point is tho – the OP said it wasn’t easy for his friends, you calling him a liar? You saying there’s something wrong with his friends cause it was easy for you?

I happen to agree with the OP. I hate TD with a passion. Spend as little time there as possible. I’m glad it’s “easy” for some people. Maybe they enjoy a “tangled” path or maybe they think or see things differently than those of us having trouble. But its like people who enjoy / are good at math. People who don’t enjoy it or aren’t good at it aren’t inferior or have something wrong with them.

Those people are providing an answer for those who have problems. I did this for my guild and since I did, suddenly no one has a problem.

The solution is there, but not obvious, sort of like a game. If it’s too frustrating you use the hintbook. Either a video or whatever.

Too many people want everything served up on a silver platter with a nice little green arrow pointing to a nice little green star.

I wish we had a lot less of that.

Djinn.9245:

Wow, thanks so much for telling me that my concerns are not actually a problem and that I shouldn’t run stupidly while trying to avoid being killed. Very helpful.

I have offered to help in-game by taking you (or anyone) around this or other maps. I know a couple of other people in this thread also have that as a standing offer.

There isn’t the need for the hostility born of frustration, we will happily help you. You can (I did first few times) run blindly round into every single dead end and every vet until I finally hit champions I couldn’t run past. I quite enjoyed it however and I know that isn’t how many people want to play.

There is a really simple route from start to end of TD. It doesn’t get you to that hard to reach adventure or take you the sneaky way to that HP you need but it does get you through TD and opens up a huge chunk of the map in the process.

And really you shouldn’t run stupidly whilst trying to avoid getting killed as that doesn’t work in TD. gw2.mmorpglife maps were/are my absolute go-to alongside dulfy.net. If those don’t work for you let one or more of us show you around. Can’t make you love TD but can take the pain out of it.

Djinn.9245:

Sartharina.3542:

Djinn.9245:

Sartharina.3542:

There already is a guide built into the game to navigate TD. Open your story journal, select Heart of Thorns Act 3, and play. It guides you from the Entrance all the way through to Rata Novus (Which has easy access to the Ley Line Confluence even without any masteries) and the end of the map to Dragon’s Stand. And, as observed – once you’ve made it to the Ley Line Confluence waypoint, you have access to every part of the map that matters.

“Having access” isn’t the issue. It is navigating between the WP. Trying to get FROM the WP to a particular Vista, HP, MP, etc. is the challenge. Have you ever heard the saying “you can’t get there from here”? Very frustrating to go to the WP that seems closest to your objective and try to get to that objective that you can actually see only to find that “you can’t get there from here”. In the rest of Tyria you can literally go around your objective until you find a way to it. In HoT since there are many layers that is not the case.

It’s also not a problem. Learn how the different zones interconnect. Once you have the waypoints and can get through the map to the next, the rest should be actual exploration, not running stupidly at the nearest minimap marker. In HoT, every part of the map is its own little mini-zone connected to others. And the minimap starts making perfect sense once you realize that and see how the zones interconnect.

Wow, thanks so much for telling me that my concerns are not actually a problem and that I shouldn’t run stupidly while trying to avoid being killed. Very helpful.

You’re welcome. Yes, running stupidly while trying to avoid being killed is something you shouldn’t do unless you’re a high-sustain/high-evade/easy cripple-clear class (Running intelligently or quickly, though, is viable)

The OP said the problem with Tangled Depths was that it’s hard to find your way to the Ley Line Confluence (From where all significant parts of participating in the map can be accessed) from the entrance to the level. I pointed out that the game does provide a guide for getting from the Order of Whispers camp to the Ley Line Confluence tunnel thanks to the story. So the game has a problem, yet it also has a solution. If you’re piggybacking your own grievances against the map (Which even the OP acknowledges as not a problem), that’s a personal problem, not a game problem.

It does suck without access to wallows. And the first time you get there, it is not a guarantee that you have them. It’s a shame that the HoT masteries ended up being annoyance-removers rather than fun enhancements.