Guild Wars 2

When I heard that Defiant was finally being addressed, I must admit I was relieved. But when I heard how it would be addressed, that initial enthusiasm quickly faded away.

So, how is the break-bar any different from Defiant? My biggest issue with Defiant has always been how it renders control skills completely useless, and basically removes their functionality. It makes all control skills do the same thing: remove 1 stack of defiance.

With the break-bar apparently there will be a difference between how much each control skill reduces the bar… but their mechanics are still rendered void, perhaps even more so than with Defiant.

If you design a game mechanic, then commit to it. If you are not willing to make the game mechanic part of the entire game, then why add it in the first place? What good are my necromancer’s fear-skills, if the break-bar removes the functionality of fear, and replaces it with a default behavior that is the same for all control skills? I understand that there are technical limitations with bosses such as Tequatl, who cannot flee simply because they are static. And I also understand that having over 60 players land control skills on a boss at the same time, causes some design problems. But you (the game designer) are designing for an MMO, and thus these large numbers of players are exactly what you are designing a combat system for. As such, bosses should take existing game mechanics into account, or the presence of such mechanics in the game is invalidated.

The break-bar mechanic sounds to me, like a doctor patching up a wound, when the patient really needs to be brought into surgery.

Valid points but realistically they’re not gonna spend precious resources to change the combat system now. It’s something they should have done from the beginning they didn’t, so we get this middle ground solution. Might be interesting, we’ll know more after we see it in action a bit more.

And let us not forget the clusterkitten that follows combat overhowls… folks still remember the revamp in sw galaxies… i don’t think they’re gonna risk it.

Why does it matter anyway? Even if bosses were periodically susceptible to one CC, only knockbacks from rangers would work.

In other MMOs most bosses are simply invulnerable to all CC.

That said there are quite a bit of champions in Guild Wars 2. So just looking at some of those champions and changing the way defiance works on those should help.

But otherwise there’s not that much of a problem with defiance I think.

Permanently stable mobs tend to more of a problem.

I don’t see a point in this… all games have control skills and most of them gives bosses immunity to control to prevent abusing of his mechanics, it’s nothing new… so where is the problem? also on top of this defiance still gives your CC skills some purpose at least, not being completely useless…

I think the difference is that the defiance is away for a certain time in which you can cc the boss. That reminds me of Final Fantasy XIII’s staggering mechanic, which I thought was a pretty cool idea.

You want individual CCs to be to do what they’re supposed to do in large group encounters? Do you want to fail?

Designing encounters like that requires either a horde of enemies (ie, boss + elite guards, +2 for every 3 players) or a boss that is designed to instantly kill everyone, making CC required. Most MMOs simply go the route of disabling CC, since CC spam trivializes everything.

Why should a boss be vulnerable to CC? A boss wouldn’t be afraid (fear) and they should have a overpowering combat stance preventing any knockbacks/knockdowns/stuns. If anything, attempting to CC a boss should make them counter you, punishing your feeble attempts. Try to knockback the boss? It pulls you in/grabs you.

How would you design an encounter where CC was useful yet didn’t trivialize the encounter due to a large group? The break system they’re using isn’t exactly a new concept. It’s purpose is to make CC useful and even required, yet not rely on any specific CC or the coordination of a group on voice chat. Remember, casual friendly.

I’ve honestly just accepted that control skills in the game have a very minute, very subtle, very limited presence in this game, even on standard mobs. It’s definitely not like other games where entire builds are dedicated to CROWD CONTROLLING (that’s what CC stands for, btw…there ain’t much crowd controlling in this game) and it had a very visible presence that might be hindered in certain fights, but still very visible!

ProtoGunner.4953:

I think the difference is that the defiance is away for a certain time in which you can cc the boss. That reminds me of Final Fantasy XIII’s staggering mechanic, which I thought was a pretty cool idea.

this was old defiance system, new system triggers predefined effect no matter what CC you use…

The break bar is essentially a rip off of Final Fantasy 13’s break bar. Once you hit the mob with enough attacks in a short period of time it will “break” and sustain additional damage or be vulnerable to additional conditions.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

As such, bosses should take existing game mechanics into account, or the presence of such mechanics in the game is invalidated.

I fail to see how the break bar does not qualify as taking existing game mechanics into account. You speak as though CC is worthless in the face of defiance, when in fact it does have an affect. And you acknowledge yourself that letting an entire mob of players endlessly stun-lock a boss is bad, but you have not offered any alternative solutions. You can’t make your entire post “devs did a bad job” without explaining how you would do it differently and why that’s any better.

DeathPanel.8362:

The break bar is essentially a rip off of Final Fantasy 13’s break bar.

Yeah, and the HP bar is totally a rip off of the first game that had HP bars. I can’t believe how unoriginal this game is… /s

I think the big change will simply be easier organization, instead of actually working as a team to manage your stacks to allow the CC you want to be used to be used, you’re now just going to give it everything you got at the right time.

In other words, less intelligent play, more spam.

Either way I’m indifferent and interested to see how it plays out.

A lot of us have talked about this for years. It’s frustrating. You can completely shut down a player in PvP, but shutting down a boss is frowned upon. It would be nice to see boss fights where the bosses had no defiance and the *point was to keep that boss CCed or everyone would get jacked.

I agree with the assessment that they should commit to a mechanic. I was really bummed when the game came out and they had been talking about “Control” being one of the playstyles and it was unequivocally not true.

Skill splits would fix a lot of the issues, but they won’t commit to it.

Iason Evan.3806:

A lot of us have talked about this for years. It’s frustrating. You can completely shut down a player in PvP, but shutting down a boss is frowned upon. It would be nice to see boss fights where the bosses had no defiance and the *point was to keep that boss CCed or everyone would get jacked.

I agree with the assessment that they should commit to a mechanic. I was really bummed when the game came out and they had been talking about “Control” being one of the playstyles and it was unequivocally not true.

Skill splits would fix a lot of the issues, but they won’t commit to it.

I do not understand how wailing on a stun locked boss for 20 minutes would be fun…

“Control” play style is very true….in PvP and WvW.

The problem is you cant have Tequatl run up on shore, then immediatly get 6 stuns to the face, and sit there doing nothing for 5 minutes. That’s not fun, nor engaging.

The new bar makes having CC available in boss fights matter, and having stronger ones available matter even more.

Weak CC skill will remove less of the bar than strong ones, so having a bunch of strong ones available to use will be useful, though if you only have weak ones you can still contribute. They aren’t making the bars super easy to remove either.

Additionally instead of removing the stacks and then having one person mess everything up by knocking the boss back it will instead prevent the boss from using a strong ability/changing phases and potentially also give the group a chance to do extra damage to the boss.

So basically it’s better because instead of all cc abilities being weighted equally, some count for more than others. One person can’t really screw the fight up for everyone else. And it’ll help defeat the boss more easily. It really is an all around improvement.

Jerus.4350:

In other words, less intelligent play, more spam.

I don’t understand how what has been described would produce the effect you state. Spamming CC would have little effect. It has been stated that the break bar will only be vulnerable at certain periods or require a severe concentrated effort on the part of the players. Spamming CC will make the break bar move but only a coordinated attack will break it and thus provide the benefit to the group.

This also adds the mechanic of Commanders actually commanding.

The new bar will most likely help people to forget all these stressfull memorie where a troll or a newby just kill everybody’s dps by knocking a champion/legendary out of range or aoe. Dropping by their single mistake the group effort to zero.

It will then benefit newbies that faceroll their keyboard because they won’t be kicked for kittening off their party.

Although, this is something that may open a lot more possibility to make the content more challenging. Which ain’t a bad thing.

PS.: Tequatl ain’t a legendary nor a champ. He will never be affected by these change.

Cherokeewill.7504:

Jerus.4350:

In other words, less intelligent play, more spam.

I don’t understand how what has been described would produce the effect you state. Spamming CC would have little effect. It has been stated that the break bar will only be vulnerable at certain periods or require a severe concentrated effort on the part of the players. Spamming CC will make the break bar move but only a coordinated attack will break it and thus provide the benefit to the group.

This also adds the mechanic of Commanders actually commanding.

Everyone spamming their CC at the same time is still spam. :P

godkitten login ate my post.

Short version: Not to argue with the OP, but CC is/was super strong before HoT. You start with a free control effect (0 defiance) and coordination is actually pretty easy as long as you don’t have a ranger with a dog pet who thinks that Point Blank Shot is a DPS skill.

~~~

The real money in the new system is the Wyvern model, where they’re normally unbreakable but you need to run a “CC Burn” at certain points in the fight. That has potential.

Cherokeewill.7504:

Jerus.4350:

In other words, less intelligent play, more spam.

I don’t understand how what has been described would produce the effect you state. Spamming CC would have little effect. It has been stated that the break bar will only be vulnerable at certain periods or require a severe concentrated effort on the part of the players. Spamming CC will make the break bar move but only a coordinated attack will break it and thus provide the benefit to the group.

This also adds the mechanic of Commanders actually commanding.

My point is that it’s not about using the right CC at the right time, but simply spam as much CC as you can at the right time.

World bosses it’ll be nice, as the current defiant system with like 20+ stacks… there’s always someone ready to ruin the opening with a dumb CC. On smaller stuff where groups can realistically coordinate and manage defiance to utilize CCs effectively, well, now we won’t be able to use the CC we want to use. It’ll no longer be about precise use, but simply about spamming everything you have at the right time every time encounter demands it.

As for commanders… /shrug I’m told the bar even glows at the right time, so really no communication necessary, just lob everything you have when that bar glows.

Jerus.4350:

Cherokeewill.7504:

Jerus.4350:

In other words, less intelligent play, more spam.

I don’t understand how what has been described would produce the effect you state. Spamming CC would have little effect. It has been stated that the break bar will only be vulnerable at certain periods or require a severe concentrated effort on the part of the players. Spamming CC will make the break bar move but only a coordinated attack will break it and thus provide the benefit to the group.

This also adds the mechanic of Commanders actually commanding.

My point is that it’s not about using the right CC at the right time, but simply spam as much CC as you can at the right time.

World bosses it’ll be nice, as the current defiant system with like 20+ stacks… there’s always someone ready to ruin the opening with a dumb CC. On smaller stuff where groups can realistically coordinate and manage defiance to utilize CCs effectively, well, now we won’t be able to use the CC we want to use. It’ll no longer be about precise use, but simply about spamming everything you have at the right time every time encounter demands it.

As for commanders… /shrug I’m told the bar even glows at the right time, so really no communication necessary, just lob everything you have when that bar glows.

That’s the point, though. It’s going to be exceptionally hard to CC bosses now (depending on the strength of the bar), in general it’s a subtle piece to make encounters harder for organized groups without effecting chaos/pugs.

The other thing is, I strongly suspect that many many of the new champions will be unbreakable for most of the encounters.

~~~

Lessening the effectiveness of CC is a major part, in my opinion, of getting pve difficulty under control.

For sure, it removes the potential for intelligent coordinated play and promotes a more “ok, everyone spam now” mentality.

Could be fun, not really complaining, just calling it what it is, a system that is far easier and less powerful.

Windsagio.1340:

It’s going to be exceptionally hard to CC bosses now (depending on the strength of the bar), in general it’s a subtle piece to make encounters harder for organized groups without effecting chaos/pugs.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. All the evidence ive seen shows that the break bar scales to the number of players. Which means it will be easier for organised groups. And it will be easier than it is currently because we dont have to worry about defiant stack management and saving the control vulnerability for specific types of CC. It removes a layer of complexity from organised groups in favour of simplifying the system for everyone else.

I like it overall. It should open up the possibility for more interesting encounters. But i really hope some break bars allow CC vulnerability instead of just a predetermined stun. Because otherwise we have literally no use for skills like scorpion wire or taunt in PvE when fighting bosses.

When I went to PAX East (played the demo) and spoke with the Devs the main impression that I got was to increase the “visibility” of defiant stacks. The new changes are nice for 2 main reasons.

1. My stun that is inferior to Ice Bow #4 will no longer be the culprit of CC’ing the boss before a freeze gets off. (In this case assume Ice Bow #4 will be worse or comperable than the default CC)

2. The amount of Defiant on a boss is more noticeable at a glance. You no longer have to look for a small number that represents Defiant rather, look at the bar (that looks kinda like the hp bar but smaller) and know innately how many CC’s left.

I feel this change is good for new players to understand how CC works and for old players bringing boss control transparency to encounters

Jerus.4350:

For sure, it removes the potential for intelligent coordinated play and promotes a more “ok, everyone spam now” mentality.

Could be fun, not really complaining, just calling it what it is, a system that is far easier and less powerful.

Or, rather, it removes CC from the equation (effectively) except for special cases, and requires players be much more on point with their active defenses. Fights in general will be a little longer without icebow burns being so easy, and people will have to be a little bit better at dpsing on a boss that’s not actually stunned.

The thing I like about the cc burn phase is that it gives the skills some use some, and it solves the issue common with a lot of the LS encounters, which are:

DPS PHASE > INVULN DODGE PHASE > DPS PHASE.

Accepting the argument about losing a skill element (although again I think it trades for a different skill requirement gain) you get

DPS PHASE > INVULN DODGE PHASE > DPS PHASE
| |
CC BURN > DPS PHASE

They can make the CC burn a reaction check (it likely will be) to keep it from being a pure dumb spam.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

It’s going to be exceptionally hard to CC bosses now (depending on the strength of the bar), in general it’s a subtle piece to make encounters harder for organized groups without effecting chaos/pugs.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. All the evidence ive seen shows that the break bar scales to the number of players. Which means it will be easier for organised groups. And it will be easier than it is currently because we dont have to worry about defiant stack management and saving the control vulnerability for specific types of CC. It removes a layer of complexity from organised groups in favour of simplifying the system for everyone else.

I like it overall. It should open up the possibility for more interesting encounters. But i really hope some break bars allow CC vulnerability instead of just a predetermined stun. Because otherwise we have literally no use for skills like scorpion wire or taunt in PvE when fighting bosses.

An unorganized group whether in an instance or in open world is generally not getting any meaningful benefit from CC. In comparison, an organized group is getting massive advantage from CC.

It’s making it somewhat harder for the group that’s currently getting the advantage. The increased difficulty doesn’t matter for the other group, that isn’t getting the benefit currently anyways.

~~~

That’s my logic. CC is currently relatively easy to manage if you have a coordinated group. It is impossible to use effectively in an uncoordinated group or a zerg.

In the new system, it becomes harder for the coordinated group because you can no longer “store” defiance stripping. It’ll probably be the same for an uncoordinated group because in my experience they’re usually firing off their CC’s as fast as they possibly can anyways.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If you design a game mechanic, then commit to it.

I take it you’re a big fan of the sunk cost fallacy.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If you are not willing to make the game mechanic part of the entire game, then why add it in the first place?

Because there’s a big difference between design phase and implementation. What looked good on paper doesn’t always work well in practice. Deviance seemed like one of those ideas that was good on paper but didn’t work well, particularly given the dungeon design that made deviance a non-consideration and the focus on large zerg content which rendered deviance a useless mechanic.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The break-bar mechanic sounds to me, like a doctor patching up a wound, when the patient really needs to be brought into surgery.

It sounds to me more like the surgery. What you’re proposing is patching up deviance.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

For sure, it removes the potential for intelligent coordinated play and promotes a more “ok, everyone spam now” mentality.

Could be fun, not really complaining, just calling it what it is, a system that is far easier and less powerful.

Or, rather, it removes CC from the equation (effectively) except for special cases, and requires players be much more on point with their active defenses. Fights in general will be a little longer without icebow burns being so easy, and people will have to be a little bit better at dpsing on a boss that’s not actually stunned.

The thing I like about the cc burn phase is that it gives the skills some use some, and it solves the issue common with a lot of the LS encounters, which are:

DPS PHASE > INVULN DODGE PHASE > DPS PHASE.

Accepting the argument about losing a skill element (although again I think it trades for a different skill requirement gain) you get

DPS PHASE > INVULN DODGE PHASE > DPS PHASE
| |
CC BURN > DPS PHASE

They can make the CC burn a reaction check (it likely will be) to keep it from being a pure dumb spam.

Don’t disagree with anything your saying about it, though I really don’t see it having very much effect on anything. The speed runners will still burn through things quickly and the other side of the spectrum will still be confused about what the heck is going on, but at least those people can’t screw up my defiance anymore And, incomming Slick Shoes meta!

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

For sure, it removes the potential for intelligent coordinated play and promotes a more “ok, everyone spam now” mentality.

Could be fun, not really complaining, just calling it what it is, a system that is far easier and less powerful.

Or, rather, it removes CC from the equation (effectively) except for special cases, and requires players be much more on point with their active defenses. Fights in general will be a little longer without icebow burns being so easy, and people will have to be a little bit better at dpsing on a boss that’s not actually stunned.

The thing I like about the cc burn phase is that it gives the skills some use some, and it solves the issue common with a lot of the LS encounters, which are:

DPS PHASE > INVULN DODGE PHASE > DPS PHASE.

Accepting the argument about losing a skill element (although again I think it trades for a different skill requirement gain) you get

DPS PHASE > INVULN DODGE PHASE > DPS PHASE
| |
CC BURN > DPS PHASE

They can make the CC burn a reaction check (it likely will be) to keep it from being a pure dumb spam.

Don’t disagree with anything your saying about it, though I really don’t see it having very much effect on anything. The speed runners will still burn through things quickly and the other side of the spectrum will still be confused about what the heck is going on, but at least those people can’t screw up my defiance anymore And, incomming Slick Shoes meta!

Hah, “LFG NEED THIEF!!!” Meta is what I see ><

Blinds>break bar + black powder = stupid cc power (honestly custom breaks make headshot much stronger too, although it’s legit pretty good)

Am i reading a necro thread about cc being useless in new break bar mechanic?
Seriously. A necro??

You got terror that ticks regardless if fear did it’s cc portion or not. Necros are the last profession that has right to complain about defiant as their cc still does pretty nice damage.

And the new system more then before will make necro cc viable, as being a condition it is subject both to master of terror trait and condi duration you have, making it that much more potent at tearing through breakbar.

I do however agree that this break bar is more brain-dead friendly solution then previous system, not punishing overcasting cc (reset of defiant stacks) but also taking away control of what our cc will do to boss in favour of preprogrammed “break events” during the fight.

That being said it’s still a massive improvement as far as each cc having different weight to removing the bar is concerned.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

For sure, it removes the potential for intelligent coordinated play and promotes a more “ok, everyone spam now” mentality.

Could be fun, not really complaining, just calling it what it is, a system that is far easier and less powerful.

Or, rather, it removes CC from the equation (effectively) except for special cases, and requires players be much more on point with their active defenses. Fights in general will be a little longer without icebow burns being so easy, and people will have to be a little bit better at dpsing on a boss that’s not actually stunned.

The thing I like about the cc burn phase is that it gives the skills some use some, and it solves the issue common with a lot of the LS encounters, which are:

DPS PHASE > INVULN DODGE PHASE > DPS PHASE.

Accepting the argument about losing a skill element (although again I think it trades for a different skill requirement gain) you get

DPS PHASE > INVULN DODGE PHASE > DPS PHASE
| |
CC BURN > DPS PHASE

They can make the CC burn a reaction check (it likely will be) to keep it from being a pure dumb spam.

Don’t disagree with anything your saying about it, though I really don’t see it having very much effect on anything. The speed runners will still burn through things quickly and the other side of the spectrum will still be confused about what the heck is going on, but at least those people can’t screw up my defiance anymore And, incomming Slick Shoes meta!

Hah, “LFG NEED THIEF!!!” Meta is what I see ><

Blinds>break bar + black powder = stupid cc power (honestly custom breaks make headshot much stronger too, although it’s legit pretty good)

Aren’t blinds going to be quite toned down, such that it’d be like the equivalent of a 2s stun for the entire duration of a black powder or something like that? So not realy the bursty thing that might be needed… /shrug we’ll see what happens but I’ve been trying to figure out burst options. Of course Mesmer shatter + Mantra + Pistol + Sword(or focus) will be great.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Don’t disagree with anything your saying about it, though I really don’t see it having very much effect on anything. The speed runners will still burn through things quickly and the other side of the spectrum will still be confused about what the heck is going on, but at least those people can’t screw up my defiance anymore And, incomming Slick Shoes meta!

Hah, “LFG NEED THIEF!!!” Meta is what I see ><

Blinds>break bar + black powder = stupid cc power (honestly custom breaks make headshot much stronger too, although it’s legit pretty good)

Aren’t blinds going to be quite toned down, such that it’d be like the equivalent of a 2s stun for the entire duration of a black powder or something like that? So not realy the bursty thing that might be needed… /shrug we’ll see what happens but I’ve been trying to figure out burst options. Of course Mesmer shatter + Mantra + Pistol + Sword(or focus) will be great.

I’m not totally up on the news, that would make a ton of sense. Pistol 4 is still going to be really excellent CC burst though, probably the most reliable volume in the game (mesmer I’d agree is higher potential, and it makes the mantra good, but it’s reliant on your clones/phantasms being up for the shatter).

~~~

See for me, this kind of talk makes it exciting. If the CC burn is hard and Fast, (snicker), and getting the Break when you need it is important enough, there are both reaction skill challenges and some interesting build questions that come into the discussion (a mesmer max stun setup isn’t your normal combat build at all, although thief is usually S/P anyways so that’s flexible).

Exactly why I’m not complaining, it’ll surely change some stuff up and we might see some lesser used abilities (like slick shoes).

IIRC they said they’re trying to scale it to give stronger CCs more of an effect. So a blind is really weak, as would be a half sec stun compared to a 2-3s stun. But of course you have cast times and what not to worry about as well.

Shame that they don’t use a certain fractal instability as inspiration for how most champions respond to crowd control skills.

Unique world bosses having things like defiant or the break bar works fine. They’re world bosses, after all. But the standard champion should simply have resistance – not immunity – to CC, IMHO.

DeathPanel.8362:

The break bar is essentially a rip off of Final Fantasy 13’s break bar. Once you hit the mob with enough attacks in a short period of time it will “break” and sustain additional damage or be vulnerable to additional conditions.

difference is, in 13, the break bar was broken by skills whose main purpose was to stagger. These skills were designed and balanced around doing something else. And, as far as their current design, they will never be able to do what they were designed for.
Predetermined effect now.

the main advantage to the defiance system is that it will make different CC potency count. But, aside from that it basically makes all CC into the same CC.

I see people throwing crowd control around quite a bit. While ignoring what its really used for in most games that have CC dedicated builds. And thats (reducing or removing a specific set/group of threats through the use of control skills allowing other players to behave and act unhindered.)

Namely. CC builds aren’t MEANT to be for the massive bosses. There meant to keep the swarms of adds from wrecking the field.

A skilled CC player in the games I expereinced in the past wasn’t (whoever happened to bring icebow at this time) but (whoever could effectively handle being outnumbered and fighting mostly alone against 8 or more mobs while keeping those mobs in an area AWAY from the vitaly important glass cannons). Meaning the control playstyle in those situations was closer to an indirect off tank.

Your not a warrior sword and boarding taking smashing blows to teh face buck instead your someone weakening,slowing,mezzing,fearing,blinding,stunning a key aspect of the fight.

I feel like CC in the sense of “okay I need two full control players to focus on killing hte break bar whenever it appears” isn’t going to happen.

I feel like CC in the sense of " I need someone to keep those leeching thrashers and menders AWAY from the boss at all times while not letting them heal him" is very much a more real possibility. And to an extent already exists.

You know it could be once the bar is removed the mob is vulnerable to ALL cc for a short amount of time until the bar refills or could just be the bar regens slowly so if you keep constant cc pressure the mob wont be able to keep all its stacks all the time ?

Shadelang.3012:

I see people throwing crowd control around quite a bit. While ignoring what its really used for in most games that have CC dedicated builds. And thats (reducing or removing a specific set/group of threats through the use of control skills allowing other players to behave and act unhindered.)

Namely. CC builds aren’t MEANT to be for the massive bosses. There meant to keep the swarms of adds from wrecking the field.

The problem with this idea is that a lot of CC skills ingame are single target. Making them completely useless for trash mobs. And it essentially means every single target CC is just break bar damage skill. Regardless of its effect. Thats quite a step back in options from what we have currently. The current system has its problems. But it still gives players choice.

Id like to say the regular break bar just give CC vulnerability instead of a predetermined stun. That way it works just the same as now but better scaling. And you wont be able to get a free CC off at the start of a fight.

Frightlight.3796:

You know it could be once the bar is removed the mob is vulnerable to ALL cc for a short amount of time until the bar refills or could just be the bar regens slowly so if you keep constant cc pressure the mob wont be able to keep all its stacks all the time ?

They have said it will give a predetermined effect. This could change for the base break bar. But its heavily implied by the answers we got that most old champs will just get a default effect such as a long duration stun.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Am i reading a necro thread about cc being useless in new break bar mechanic?
Seriously. A necro??.

No, you are skipping over a thread and instantly replying, without reading that it really is about the break bar taking away the unique ability of every CC-skill. It makes every CC the same, thus rendering their functionality void in boss encounters. A fear is supposed to cause fear, just like a knock down is supposed to knock enemies down. With the break bar, both do the same, but neither have their original functionality.

Andred.1087:

I fail to see how the break bar does not qualify as taking existing game mechanics into account.

Knockdowns no longer knock a boss down. Fears do not fear a boss. etc. It removes their characteristic effects completely.

Andred.1087:

You speak as though CC is worthless in the face of defiance, when in fact it does have an affect.

An effect that works so poorly, that most sane people simply DPS the heck out of any boss, because in the time that it takes to remove those stacks of Defiant, the boss could be dead already. Yes, it is worthless as it is now.

Andred.1087:

And you acknowledge yourself that letting an entire mob of players endlessly stun-lock a boss is bad, but you have not offered any alternative solutions. You can’t make your entire post “devs did a bad job” without explaining how you would do it differently and why that’s any better.

Last time I checked, Anet did not hire me to design the new combat system for their revolutionairy new MMO. I am merely a player (and freelance game designer, but that is besides the point), pointing out that they neglected to make all of their combat mechanics a complete part of the combat experience.

Stun locking bosses is bad, but there are ways around that. The current system imposes restrictions on the use of control skills and condition skills against bosses, while imposing little to no draw backs to using direct damage (aka, DPS). You need not be a game designer to see that this is an unbalanced system. The combat should not single one game mechanic out as being the best, while neglecting the other two mechanics. Especially, when you consider that these three mechanics are spread unevenly across the classes, and that some classes excel at one of the three. There is no point to being specialized in an inferior mechanic. Unless the three are at equal footing, you will never have a balanced combat system.

My main problem with the break bar, is how it doesn’t really solve this issue of the boss fights neglecting game mechanics. It reminds me of the boss fights in Final Fantasy 7, where all of the magic system basically becomes useless once you get your first summon (and most bosses are immune to status effects, thus rendering the entire game mechanic obsolete). This is bad design. Boss fights should be magnified versions of regular combat, where game mechanics are stretched to their maximum potential, rather than made obsolete. As such, a boss should be designed around the game’s mechanics, and not the other way around. What the break bar does, is solve the problem of Defiance being invisible and not user friendly. But at the same time, it disables all the unique characteristics of all CC skills, as if they do not exist during boss fights. I understand that they are inconvenient with how diverse their behaviors are. But make them work for you, not against you. Make the boss fights work with them, not without them.

I think it would be cool if they expanded more on the mechanic when the wyvern flew into the air and got CC’ed back down. where the defiance bar is there working as it does, but if you manage to get it down, something unique would happen rather than just a simple fear/knockback/stun etc. e.g., you burn the defiance bar on a giant type of boss, and it comes crashing down for a good ~5 seconds and becomes more vulnerable to damage, or an enemy starts charging up a MASSIVE attack and if you don’t CC it, it’ll really hurt the team

spoj.9672:

Shadelang.3012:

I see people throwing crowd control around quite a bit. While ignoring what its really used for in most games that have CC dedicated builds. And thats (reducing or removing a specific set/group of threats through the use of control skills allowing other players to behave and act unhindered.)

Namely. CC builds aren’t MEANT to be for the massive bosses. There meant to keep the swarms of adds from wrecking the field.

The problem with this idea is that a lot of CC skills ingame are single target. Making them completely useless for trash mobs. And it essentially means every single target CC is just break bar damage skill. Regardless of its effect. Thats quite a step back in options from what we have currently. The current system has its problems. But it still gives players choice.

Id like to say the regular break bar just give CC vulnerability instead of a predetermined stun. That way it works just the same as now but better scaling. And you wont be able to get a free CC off at the start of a fight.

I really strongly suspect that most new bosses are going to be essentially unbreakable (as per the defiance news post example) outside those windows. Not all, but most.

The only issue I have with the normalization is that it’s gonna be harder to use knockbacks to force positioning on bosses, that could be a pain at times… (But again might also effect difficulty in a way we like).

What we have not heard is how this will effect Mesmer interrupt traits? Atm mesmers are entirely relegated to reflect bots in pve, as almost any other build does not work to well.. Will this break bar then let us proc interrupt trait effects of bosses now? And how will this effect our ability to prevent a cleave from knocking everyone down? At the moment, a skilled Mesmer using s/s is capable of more or less managing a bosses big aoe skills solo by spamming sword daze to remove defiant then hitting them with a mantra to prevent the big power skill. Will this kinda play still be viable?

PorceleinEve.2973:

Valid points but realistically they’re not gonna spend precious resources to change the combat system now. It’s something they should have done from the beginning they didn’t, so we get this middle ground solution. Might be interesting, we’ll know more after we see it in action a bit more.

And let us not forget the clusterkitten that follows combat overhowls… folks still remember the revamp in sw galaxies… i don’t think they’re gonna risk it.

Oh yes, the Star Wars Galaxies revamp was quite a mess. Which just shows why it is important to get the groundwork of a robust combat system right from the start. Once you start building the game, and discover the foundation is broken, it is quite difficult to fix it without collapsing the building on top.

I don’t think the situation is as hopeless however as it was with SW Galaxies. I believe Anet can add incremental changes to the combat systems to fix these glaring issues. First and fore most, I think they should look at the rock-paper-scissors idea of their main combat mechanics.

I think the breakbar will be a solution to the defiance problem, but I don’t like the idea of blind being lumped with CC when it’s clearly a condition and a source of defense for some classes. I would prefer it if they implemented a defiance like mechanic for blinds but instead of giving the boss 50 stacks every time you blind it make it so the boss gains a buff that makes immune to blind for ~10 seconds. I found the 10% effectiveness to be really annoying and not helpful at all when I really needed the champs to miss that one hit that would down me, at least with a cooldown I have some degree of control while not rendering bosses helpless to thieves permanent blind.

I do not see my same Idea working with CC because there are too many different kinds of it, sometimes you may want a boss interrupted, but not knocked back 900 units away, other times you may want to reposition a boss with fear/knockback/launch but instead it gets frozen in place. Blind only has 1 effect and that is making the target miss 1 hit.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

PorceleinEve.2973:

Valid points but realistically they’re not gonna spend precious resources to change the combat system now. It’s something they should have done from the beginning they didn’t, so we get this middle ground solution. Might be interesting, we’ll know more after we see it in action a bit more.

And let us not forget the clusterkitten that follows combat overhowls… folks still remember the revamp in sw galaxies… i don’t think they’re gonna risk it.

Oh yes, the Star Wars Galaxies revamp was quite a mess. Which just shows why it is important to get the groundwork of a robust combat system right from the start. Once you start building the game, and discover the foundation is broken, it is quite difficult to fix it without collapsing the building on top.

I don’t think the situation is as hopeless however as it was with SW Galaxies. I believe Anet can add incremental changes to the combat systems to fix these glaring issues. First and fore most, I think they should look at the rock-paper-scissors idea of their main combat mechanics.

Break bar is a good first step to be honest. Its the implementation on old bosses that will most likely be the problem. And for new stuff it will be encounter design. But the break bar itself is a nice idea if you ignore the predetermined effect at the end.

If I had to come up with a quick improvement, I’d have different effects for bosses that are blinded, feared, knocked down, or pulled. Perhaps if you land enough knockdowns on the feet of Tequatl, it could cause it to collapse, allowing you to melee it’s head. Maybe if you land enough fears, it would recoil in fear, driving it back, and allowing the players to stop a devastating attack, or strike at a weak-spot underneath its belly.

This would be an extension of the break-bar principle, but without removing the core functionality of the individual CC-skills, and without lumping them together. The effect would still be pre-determined, but it would at least be a response to the skills being used.

Yeah i agree. The main issue is simply the devalueing the type of CC people use. And there are plenty of ways to fix this. It can be through CC vulnerability once the break bar is destroyed. Or it can be different predetermined effects based on the type of CC’s used in majority to break the bar. In fairness these could both be implemented. The former for old stuff as the base break bar system. And the latter for new encounters.

While I do agree that the break-bar sounds more like a small patch-up to a large problem, I do think that we should give it a chance and see how it works in a live environment first.

Sure, the usage of the break-bar means that CC is now reduced to numbers and makes them feel less special, but perhaps it’ll work really well live?

Right now, all we have is what it will do on paper, some small scale previews of it working in a controlled (new)environment, and not much else to it. I would really like to see these changes first hand in a live environment coughPublicBetacough.

The changes might come in before (like some of the others) that’s not something they can really just apply to expansion players… so it’ll be like defiance.

On the lessening of differences, you still have that for other enemies and for PvP. The only bit of that that matters to me is that it really adversely effects pushes and pulls.