The Design of Revenant Traits
An interesting notion, but I honestly dislike your revisions a good deal more than the original traits, due to another issue with many traits that your revisions exacerbates a great deal – specificity/uptime.
Your traits are extremely specific, with very stringent requirements that are difficult to reliably meet, which means that most of the time, you may as well have an empty hex in your trait bar rather than the trait you slotted. I get the desire for active play and having people think and make choices, but in my eyes traits are the only way we have left of getting back any of the buildy, TCG deckmastery feel of the first game, and as such traits should be set up with an eye towards letting the player define a specific playstyle rather than being random one-off things they can pull once or twice a day if they’re good.
Traits like Phalanx for the Warrior, Juggernaut for the Engineer, or to a lesser extent things like Ricochet on the Thief are much better ideas. Traits like those are things you can hang entire builds on, giving you very definite playstyles you can then tweak to your liking through different complementary traits or choice of specific utils (sort of. Mostly. God the util skills in this game are disappointing as all get-out…-_-)
Traits that ‘mindlessly’ reward you for doing something you’d do anyways are fine, so long as the trait itself is the reason you’re doing that thing. I have a Phalanx Warrior I specifically built as such, for example, that…stands in one place and spams Hundred Blades on recharge. Boring as hell and I wish like crazy that the Warrior’s greatsword had more play to it, but the point isn’t so much to bust out MAD DEEPZ…but the fact that the greatsword is what the Warrior needs to maximize Phalanx. My behavior with that character isn’t to go for mad Berserker nonsense, but to act as a forward support for my guildmates in tougher fights, providing all the Might in Creation. It’s why that character is in Knight’s armor rather than Berserker, and why a number of her other traits and skill choices anchor around supporting allies, dropping banners, and other such things.
The character’s behavior is simple and somewhat distressingly repetitive, but the reasoning for that behavior, and the other elements that drive that behavior, make it stand out to me. Phalanx is the sort of trait I want to see more of, not “gain retaliation upon dodging an enemy attack for the duration of dodging that attack and thus dealing one tick of retal damage to that enemy and pretend this is a meaningful thing to do.” If you’re going to do things with triggers that specific, you need to ensure that the trigger resulting from your strict and narrowly defined action is worth the investment. Example:
“Retaliatory Evasion: Gain Might (x2) and Fury when you evade an attack. 4s”
Still rather tame, but it means that the Rev is put into a position to capitalize on an enemy’s whiffed attack with greater damage and critical hit rate for their own follow-up attack., encouraging them to punch back as hard as they can in that 4s window rather than gaining retaliation, A.K.A. the most generally pointless boon in GW2.
Same thing with Radiant Retaliation on the Guardian, come to think of it. The trait as currently stands is actively harmful to take, but if it read “Retaliation damage scales with both Power and Malice” rather than “Retaliation scales with Malice instead of Power”, you would’ve had something to hang a build on. Build for both Power and Malice to make for giant Retal spikes (by the standards of Retal, anyways) and thusly also hybridize enough to make the Guardian’s constant burns actually useful.
Stuff like that is how you make traits people like to use. Things where you can say “this is a (Traitname) build” are the way to go, not random situational nothing traits that don’t help you do anything worthwhile.
Your traits are extremely specific, with very stringent requirements that are difficult to reliably meet, which means that most of the time, you may as well have an empty hex in your trait bar rather than the trait you slotted.
I don’t think that using your dodge roll to roll an attack or absorbing crowd control with stability are extremely specific or have requirements that are hard to meet at all. If anything they are the opposite, rewarding you further for using the skills the way they are meant to be used, I mentioned that balance was not a concern to me this early on either as we don’t have a revenant to play with. They were merely examples of how to make extremely boring and automatic mechanics into something that isn’t unfun to play with and against and most importantly try to get the point across about how you can make traits that don’t reward you for poor play (ie. getting hit by a CC)
Phalanx might is not a passive proc either, it’s an active proc and a powerful one at that and creates a whole new build type. Imo it’s a great trait because of that and it’s not auto-include in every warrior build either because it’s specific, you need to build a bit around it to make it worth it too.
I like your idea of the roll thing even better, though it’s not much of a defensive trait and would fit an offensive line better. My example was just to introduce the concept.
(edited by Uuni.3561)
As far as I know traits are supposed to let the players create more playstyles and/or further define their builds.
IMO that’s the cover story. In effect the way traits, weapons and utilities all ‘synergize’ the trait system is a convoluted way of implementing a limited number of optimal specialisations (not the HoT kind) for each profession.
-Why are passive procs a bad thing?-
You get rewarded for doing nothing. It doesn’t really matter how the proc activates as long as you have no control over when it goes off. Getting rewarded or punishing your opponent with no thought should not be part of any well designed game, it’s just abhorrently bad game design. It’s 100% no fun to fight against and it’s not really that fun to use either as often you don’t even see them go off.
You choose to equip the trait or not so you absolutely have some control over when it goes off.
Instead of rewarding you with a taunt on a good play, you get rewarded for getting hit by a CC. Your opponent can’t see this one coming and will get punished for trying to attack you.
Everything about your post makes it seem like you’re not actually using these traits yourself. It makes it seem like you hate being subjected to them by other players who use them against you, to good effect.
How to make a trait like this (passive proc) interesting? Instead of making it proc off of a random chance or a passive trigger, make it a situational trigger.
example:
- “Eye for an eye – when you are hit by a disable while you have stability, taunt that foe for a short duration "
I don’t see any improvement here. In fact I think this is a massive step backwards in a whole other direction.
One blind alley some game designers go up – I think Funcom made this mistake with AoC and TSW – is creating these kinds of convoluted conditional interactions between abilities which creates gameplay where you often feel like you have to take two steps sideways to take one step forward. It’s not most people’s idea of fun.
GW2 has a bit of this in the mesmer but IMO it fits the profession’s theme so I don’t think that’s a problem. I just sometimes need a lie down after playing my mesmer.
Personally I don’t see anything yet which is ‘alarming’ in the revenant traits. The only thing which ‘alarms’ me is the statement made in the mmorpg.com article which said ArenaNet weren’t creating legend-based trait lines because they wanted to force players to legend swap as often as possible rather than focus on one. But here we have two revealed legend-based trait lines. Mmm.
Your retaliatory evasion ‘revamp’ is bad, and here’s why.
It’s fine as it is, if you’re spamming dodges to get access to 2 seconds of retaliation, you’re only hurting yourself.
Proccing retaliation for the duration of the dodge roll (even proccing from evaded attacks) is a very bad trait that will never be taken simply because that gives the opponent a mere 0.5 second window to actually proc the retal.
Warrior 80 | Guardian 80 | Ranger 80 | Engineer 80 |
Thief 80 | Elementalist 80 | Mesmer 80 | Necromancer 80 | Revenant TBA
Thief 80 | Elementalist 80 | Mesmer 80 | Necromancer 80 | Revenant TBA
Personally I don’t see anything yet which is ‘alarming’ in the revenant traits. The only thing which ‘alarms’ me is the statement made in the mmorpg.com article which said ArenaNet weren’t creating legend-based trait lines because they wanted to force players to legend swap as often as possible rather than focus on one. But here we have two revealed legend-based trait lines. Mmm.
Do we? I see one trait that actually goes with a Legend. They may have similar themes and synergy, but in no way do you have to equip Jallis to get use out of their Toughness line, nor do you have to have traits in the Toughness line to make use of Jallis.
Personally I don’t see anything yet which is ‘alarming’ in the revenant traits. The only thing which ‘alarms’ me is the statement made in the mmorpg.com article which said ArenaNet weren’t creating legend-based trait lines because they wanted to force players to legend swap as often as possible rather than focus on one. But here we have two revealed legend-based trait lines. Mmm.
Do we? I see one trait that actually goes with a Legend. They may have similar themes and synergy, but in no way do you have to equip Jallis to get use out of their Toughness line, nor do you have to have traits in the Toughness line to make use of Jallis.
Just double checked, this guy is right. Only one trait in the “corruption” line requires a “Demon Legend”. The other lines look completely “legend required” free.
In fairness, for the classes we have we have more traits that require the use of certain skills anyway, for example Guardians need to use meditations to use the meditation traits, and Warriors need to use shouts to use the shout traits and so on, yet you’re more than free to use those trait lines with a shout Guardian or a signet Warrior.
I personally like the way the traits are set up right now.
Brotherhood of Blub [blub]
I happen to agree with the original post quite a bit. Why am I to be taunted for 3 seconds when I choose to interrupt a target? I am in favor for trait lines that define player builds or drastically change the way skills play.
Venomous aura for example clearly defines a player build choice, drastically changing venoms from a personal steroid to being a team support steroid.
Power block is probably my favorite trait in the game rewarding the mesmer for holding onto an interrupt or two for when they see a tell that the enemy was doing something powerful.
Fortified turrets has a clear tell for the enemy to not shoot a projectile at the engineer after they place a turret down, further playing on the engineers zone control while also allowing the engineer to choose to space them out or use them for more than just area control situations. Dropping a turret on a downed ally for defensive purposes or putting one down as a ranger uses quickness or a warrior kneels down for a kill shot.
Inversely the game is riddled with so many traits that do not promote proper play sometimes even rely on luck as the primary factor in their success.
Strider’s defense having a 20% chance on melee attack to destroy a projectile is laughable not only relying on rng but having 0 interaction from the player or the enemy simply just happening. In fact it is likely not even going to be noticed by either party unless the 20% occurs on something big like a knock back or interrupt at which point only causing incidents where the player trying to land those key skills are left in confusion.
Confounding suggestions increases duration of daze by 25% which is cool, but then it turns around and has a 50% chance to stun on daze. The player flips a coin when using this trait and it doesn’t provide any interaction for the player or the enemy.
There are obviously quite a bit more examples. The point is having random chances or passive effects that don’t provide interactions for players isn’t healthy for the game in my opinion.
(edited by Rehero.7821)
I happen to agree with the original post quite a bit. Why am I to be taunted for 3 seconds when I choose to interrupt a target? I am in favor for trait lines that define player builds or drastically change the way skills play.
Well all other classes have access to similar traits that activate on an incoming interrupt http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect#Traits_which_activate_upon_a_control_effect
I don’t think it’ll be that bad, nor will it be used if it’s sister trait “Redeeming Protection” keeps its 5 second cooldown for a 3 second protection on disable.
Brotherhood of Blub [blub]
I dislike most of the traits that activate on incoming crowd control. The only ones I am fine with are those that don’t inflict harmful effects on the enemy upon triggering. The protection one I am actually ok with mechanically, I feel its cooldown needs to be increased a bit however the taunt for 3 seconds when I cc simply means if I use a short duration daze to try to stop your healing skill I am now taunted for 3 seconds unless I choose to stun break. This provides no healthy interactions and only serves to punish a player for trying to play appropriately.
(edited by Rehero.7821)
-snip-
Weird. I saw the very same discussion just two days ago. generally i agree with what you said, with some exceptions.
Just a few things:
1. I dont think reliable, active procs are automatically bad when they dont change the way you use their triggers. As long as they make the gameplay of your build really feel different.
The caltrops-dodge of thieves (Uncatchable) for example. Usually you wont suddenly burn dodges just because you have that skill, but the effect is noticeable (im not saying anything about how strong or weak the trait is). Noticeable enough that, in my opinion, this trait is fine designwise.
2. The ‘X% chance on crit to apply Y seconds of condition Z on critical hit’. Theyre not active at all or noticeable. But theyre a staple of a lot of classes/condition trees and I like them because they present a small for condition specs: you can go for dire/carrion/whatever and increase your tankiness/direct damage or you can go for crit chance for more condition damage.
These traits are usually in a place that you get them anyway when you build for conditions, so there isnt really much of a choice involved either.
So, as long as these are int he spots of adept or master minor, i dont mind those passive and not-gameplay-changing traits all that much.
If the condition-issue gets fixed however, i wouldnt mind it if Anet removes them all and gives chars a chance to apply bleed on crit by default.
3.About your colour-coded pictures:
Why do you suddenly call all active procs passive procs aswell?
‘Determined resolution’ is painted as ‘bad’, when it’s actually kittening awful. it’s an inferior bark skin and the percentage is so small that you wont notice it at all. All those “+5/10% damage/whatever”-traits are the first things i would remove.
‘Shrouding mists’: In terms of design, this is a good trait. while the damage-percentage is still too small to be noticed, the 25% healing is good. This would definitely change your playstyle and energy-spending habits.
‘Roiling mists’ on the other hand isnt ‘cool stuff’, it’s another, bad passive effect, 10% crit chance are hardly noticeable and this wont change your behaviour at all.
Which is kind of confusing, considering you want more ‘active’ traits that change your playstyle and dont like passive passives.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
Gunnar’s Hold
Gunnar’s Hold
(edited by RashanDale.3609)
I just don’t think OP and I are going to see eye to eye on the role of traits.
I’m of the opinion that they serve as a means of supplementing a play-style/build beyond your weapon/util choices either to make those choices more fun or more powerful or to do something that wouldn’t quite fit as a weapon or utility skill, but might still be useful or interesting.
The fall damage trait, for example is something I would never equip as a skill, but that I might consider equipping as a trait since it does something useful when traveling.
From a strictly PvP standpoint how traits are implemented is abhorrent. I see two purposes of traits, to refine a player’s role by enhancing current base actions or to refine a player’s role creating new/altered outcomes to specific actions with the main purpose of increasing the in combat decisions player’s must make. There can be a third option falling in more of a grey area that gives some additional resistance to potential weaknesses but it has to be a true weakness for such a trait’s initiation to be based on an opponents action.
Now in Gw2’s system they implement a lot of additional issues in terms of trait placement and selection. This stems from a lot of old traits enhancing specific as opposed to base affects creating pigeonhole situations.
Second the volume of traits used by a characters creates overwhelming situations that offer limited play. Having 1 available on next crit passive effect is fine. Having 4 available is extremely bad because of the limited interaction. Ultimately becoming a power issue where a very large chunk of your opponents power comes from attacks that have very limited counterplay. It ends up diluting where power comes from, the vast majority should obviously come from active effects but when your starting to approach 40% passive influence vs 60% active influence over a fights outcome players start to feel fairness of fights slipping. Personally I prefer designing passive effect selection as being more linear so as a designer I have more control over synergies.
Personally I don’t see anything yet which is ‘alarming’ in the revenant traits. The only thing which ‘alarms’ me is the statement made in the mmorpg.com article which said ArenaNet weren’t creating legend-based trait lines because they wanted to force players to legend swap as often as possible rather than focus on one. But here we have two revealed legend-based trait lines. Mmm.
Do we? I see one trait that actually goes with a Legend. They may have similar themes and synergy, but in no way do you have to equip Jallis to get use out of their Toughness line, nor do you have to have traits in the Toughness line to make use of Jallis.
To clarify, I didn’t mean trait lines with traits which only affected a single legend. That would be … odd for this game. I said legend-based, not legend-restricted.
Corruption is clearly based on Mallyx and retribution on Jalis. If you were keen on being as tanky and conditiony as possible you’d probably trait up both lines. I was not expecting that based on the mmorpg.com article.
Personally I don’t see anything yet which is ‘alarming’ in the revenant traits. The only thing which ‘alarms’ me is the statement made in the mmorpg.com article which said ArenaNet weren’t creating legend-based trait lines because they wanted to force players to legend swap as often as possible rather than focus on one. But here we have two revealed legend-based trait lines. Mmm.
Do we? I see one trait that actually goes with a Legend. They may have similar themes and synergy, but in no way do you have to equip Jallis to get use out of their Toughness line, nor do you have to have traits in the Toughness line to make use of Jallis.
To clarify, I didn’t mean trait lines with traits which only affected a single legend. That would be … odd for this game. I said legend-based, not legend-restricted.
Corruption is clearly based on Mallyx and retribution on Jalis. If you were keen on being as tanky and conditiony as possible you’d probably trait up both lines. I was not expecting that based on the mmorpg.com article.
Well, yeah, but is that any different than any other profession? Traits give benefits, some of which are better for some builds than others. It really can’t be any different unless the Revenant simply didn’t have traits.
As it is, by no means do you have to go into the Retribution line to equip and use Jalis well.
Game Designer
Personally I don’t see anything yet which is ‘alarming’ in the revenant traits. The only thing which ‘alarms’ me is the statement made in the mmorpg.com article which said ArenaNet weren’t creating legend-based trait lines because they wanted to force players to legend swap as often as possible rather than focus on one. But here we have two revealed legend-based trait lines. Mmm.
Do we? I see one trait that actually goes with a Legend. They may have similar themes and synergy, but in no way do you have to equip Jallis to get use out of their Toughness line, nor do you have to have traits in the Toughness line to make use of Jallis.
To clarify, I didn’t mean trait lines with traits which only affected a single legend. That would be … odd for this game. I said legend-based, not legend-restricted.
Corruption is clearly based on Mallyx and retribution on Jalis. If you were keen on being as tanky and conditiony as possible you’d probably trait up both lines. I was not expecting that based on the mmorpg.com article.
Each legend has it’s own playstyle focus but so does each trait line, similar to the current professions. Traits are there to reinforce and augment your base selection of skills as you see fit in your setup. If you use jalis. but want to be more tanky you can opt for the retribution line, but if you like jalis and want more damage you may opt for another trait line.
Keep up the discussion of active vs. passive traits though as it’s good feedback and something we talk a lot about internally.
Twitter: @RoyCronacher
I work on systems, combat, skills, and balance.
I work on systems, combat, skills, and balance.
Personally I don’t see anything yet which is ‘alarming’ in the revenant traits. The only thing which ‘alarms’ me is the statement made in the mmorpg.com article which said ArenaNet weren’t creating legend-based trait lines because they wanted to force players to legend swap as often as possible rather than focus on one. But here we have two revealed legend-based trait lines. Mmm.
Do we? I see one trait that actually goes with a Legend. They may have similar themes and synergy, but in no way do you have to equip Jallis to get use out of their Toughness line, nor do you have to have traits in the Toughness line to make use of Jallis.
To clarify, I didn’t mean trait lines with traits which only affected a single legend. That would be … odd for this game. I said legend-based, not legend-restricted.
Corruption is clearly based on Mallyx and retribution on Jalis. If you were keen on being as tanky and conditiony as possible you’d probably trait up both lines. I was not expecting that based on the mmorpg.com article.
Each legend has it’s own playstyle focus but so does each trait line, similar to the current professions. Traits are there to reinforce and augment your base selection of skills as you see fit in your setup. If you use jalis. but want to be more tanky you can opt for the retribution line, but if you like jalis and want more damage you may opt for another trait line.
Keep up the discussion of active vs. passive traits though as it’s good feedback and something we talk a lot about internally.
i think the main concern you guys need to worry about, as evidenced by some of the discussion in this thread, is to not make each trait line too obviously tied to each legend. thematic traits that are powerful and very specific are cool, but so are traits that can fit a variety of builds and create interesting builds that weren’t foreseen.
i mean, yeah, you can make a shadow arts S/D thief, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. similarly, i worry that, for example, a mallyx-centric build will only be obvious maxing out corruption and whatever the profession mechanic line is. you could make an attack-focused jalis instead of putting points in the toughness line, but will it be viable?
as a side note, it must already be on your radar, but this whole discussion of variety, buildmaking, freedom of choice and unforeseen combinations also applies to the revenant utilities, which as of right now are fixed per legend, severely restricting all those pretty words i used a couple lines up.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
Well, this game has been RNG Wars 2 since its conception. This type of feedback has been given plenty for years and fallen on deaf ears since beta. I would learn to accept or move on, as many upcoming and new titles are abandoning passive procs and automated play style, in exchange for more player controlled action and tactics as we move away from the “turn based rpg” mind set that relied on these type of mechanics. You’ll see a more emphasis on active choice vs randomized stuff that just happening that benfits you or punishes the enemy regardless of tactic or choice made by the player or enemy. In a more competitive tournament worthy game like Smash Brothers 4 by Nintendo you’ll notice they removed this type of mechanic for their latest smash bros which was designed with a ranked mode and an E-sports scene they’re finally ready to support, they only add those mechanics before because they wanted the outcome of match’s to be random and did not want a competitive scene for the game. Course large out cry and popularity of e-sports made them change their mind with their last title.
Meanwhile you see Blizzard’s Heroes of the Storm completely missing any kind of RNG skills, the only critical strike skill they even put in says “next hit crits, refresh’s every 10 seconds, each attack lowers this cd by one second” This is the closest thing to rng and its not random at all, you have full control of when you crit and how often you crit. This is a design they’ve learned from past games and from I was told will be used in future titles. Once again though, they wanted a game built around player choice and they’ve seen the negative response and effects of computer determined attacks vs player determined.
In short, GW2 is designed around rng and stuff happening in the background the enemy and the player using the skills cannot predict or often times are even aware are happening. Their entire trait/stat model follows this. I think its a bit late to expect anything less, but if you WANT to see less of that there are TONS of games coming out (and a few mmo’s) that are more action combat driven and more about character choice and control with the possibility of a popular tournament scene that will not have such mechanics. But, this is just not one of them. On the flipside, some people like it, especially casual players or characters who are more interested in just min/maxing etc. So it has a market, and they’re happy with that market.
^ good points. im looking forward to Skyforge (and CU of course), but im also enjoying HotS. I agree with you that their design was informed by lessons learned, and devs should strive to eliminate RNG in general.
In a more competitive tournament worthy game like Smash Brothers 4 by Nintendo you’ll notice they removed this type of mechanic for their latest smash bros which was designed with a ranked mode and an E-sports scene they’re finally ready to support,
sidetracking a bit, but lolno.
smash still has random effects (even if you go no items, final destination). the reason they removed tripping was because it was kittening annoying, not because it was random. if they didn’t like random, they wouldn’t have made the villager’s Dair change damage based on the amount of turnips he hits you with (which is completely random and out of the player’s control).
as for supporting the scene? you mean the guys that confirmed they have no interest in doing any balance patches, ever? the guys that said they will do no post-launch development once they’re done with the DLC character that they had to come up with just to give people a reason to buy both versions of the game? please.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
Nintendo’s policy on DLC wants to be completely in the hands of the devs. If they want to add something post-launch, they’re free to do it. They won’t require anything from their teams.
But lets not get carried away. People like to think RNG is some form of polio. I don’t have a lot of issues with the traits we currently have, passive or not. Traits and traitlines are designed to both give active effects, and passive effects. You can build both towards enhancing your strengths, or reducing your weaknesses. Any form of competition will have people trying to maximize their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses, so why do we complain about it in Guild Wars 2? People complain about the noobtube, but its by far not the most effective weapon. If you get into a fistfight, are you going to complain about someone that consistently blocks your left hook? Or what about someone who can just shrug off your blows passively? Are you going to complain its unfair or unfun that they have that “trait”? There are many varieties of traits that will be appealing for a variety of players, and we can’t expect to only have traits that cater to our specific playstyles, or the playstyles we approve of.
The main thing I saw with the revenant traits in relation to other classes, is the large amount of synergy I saw. The “vanilla” classes all have a few traits that just don’t really do much, especially compared to others. If we have a large “underused trait balance pass” sometime around HoT release, I’d be incredibly grateful. Just equaling out the internal synergy of traitlines and classes would go a long way towards really making the professions feel fresh, even past the specializations, which won’t be ideal for every character.
Because not giving examples is bad form, I’ll list some here:
Guardian’s Shimmering Defense: It gets pretty powerful in burn-centric builds, but the window of opportunity for the proper use of the trait is very obscure. Only three targets on elite skill level cooldowns. There are no other traits in Radiance, nor in the Guardians entire spread of lines that help you survive at that health point. Likewise, the trait doesn’t feel very defensive. An effect of “Cause aoe blind and burning for x seconds for every attack while under 25% health” seems much more like shimmering defense, and has synergy with other traits.
Thief’s Slowed Pulse is another example. There’s no real synergy with other traits. You can get some Regen, but that only stacks in duration with all other sources. Its also only triggered by bleeding, and doesn’t remove the stacks, all on a 20s cooldown. Better than providing regen, is removing the damage entirely. Pain Response basically overshadows this, as it removes poison and burning in addition, despite the +10s cooldown and -75% health requirement. Also, in the Shadow Arts traitline, you have shadows embrace, which is most always the better trait to take when dealing with conditions. A possible tweak is to provide resistance on bleed, poison, or torment(?), now that the boon exists.
Mesmer’s Retalitory Shield. It gives Retaliation on block, but the traitline doesn’t give any power. Likewise, there are 2 skills that will block, which means you’re getting low benefit for low opportunity of use. Retal doesn’t interact with anything else in that traitline, and blocking only somewhat thematically fits with “Dueling”. I don’t have an indepth thought on how this would be changed, but Fury, Slow, or even Distortion could be more synergetic alternatives.
Finally, Necromancer’s Spiteful Vigor. This is pretty much a token “boon on heal” trait, that doesn’t have any effect on making you more survivable, interacting with minions, staff skills, or whatever. Something that would be very flavorful and impactful would be to summon a jagged horror on heal activation.
There are a lot of other traits like these. Sometimes its just a matter of moving things around, or sometimes its a matter of just making the trait more impactful and “connected”.
Fishsticks
Each legend has it’s own playstyle focus but so does each trait line, similar to the current professions. Traits are there to reinforce and augment your base selection of skills as you see fit in your setup. If you use jalis. but want to be more tanky you can opt for the retribution line, but if you like jalis and want more damage you may opt for another trait line.
Keep up the discussion of active vs. passive traits though as it’s good feedback and something we talk a lot about internally.
What about making traits that upgrade specific skills individually, much like how the beta trait system used to work pre-launch? Skills are naturally active, so having more traits that change how active options work would give you a LOT of room for designing new traits (and for replacing older, less healthy ones).
Trait Examples
- Elementalist’s Shatterstone also applies chill on shattering.
- Mesmer’s Blurred Frenzy inflicts more hits.
- Guardian’s greatsword leaping attack (forgot the name) has half the cooldown.
I see you guys doing this for profession mechanic skills, or very broadly for utilities. Mesmer’s reflection focus trait is an excellent exception. Why don’t we see this more often? Is it because it goes in conflict with the trait system’s “universality”? Is it because it would be more restricting than what it seems to be?
The problem with passive vs active effects, is that the trait system is passive at its very core. Traits are all about “general passive boosts”. Trying to put active effects into a passive system feels restrictive to me, even more so when there’s so many traits, and when you probably want to add new ones over time.
In my opinion, you should redesign the system’s core functionality and turn it into a “skill upgrade system”, and then minimize the amount of passive boosts it would offer. Something like, 1 trait line for each weapon set, 1 traitline for utility skills and resource skills, and ONLY 1 traitline for passive boosts. Or, passive boost slots would exist somewhere along other trait line’s paths.
(edited by DiogoSilva.7089)
Well I suppose for further customization you could introduce a ‘GW1 Faction’ based trait line that updated to match your highest positive faction ( should one like this be implemented ). Kind of a Dynamic Trait line, where the passive effects match those of the faction, the active ones you can select.
Not sure if factions are envisaged to be in GW2 though.
Well, yeah, but is that any different than any other profession? Traits give benefits, some of which are better for some builds than others. It really can’t be any different unless the Revenant simply didn’t have traits.
As it is, by no means do you have to go into the Retribution line to equip and use Jalis well.
I think we’re going in circles. Let’s bring it back to the beginning which was the mmorpg.com article.
“The team also tried to add passive perks to each Legend, but it just didn’t work and could tend to bog people down into using just one legend. They want the Revenant to focus on switching during combat, as that’s where the feel the most interesting strategies and tactics come from.”
That a) makes it sound like there aren’t any traits which support a specific legend and b) we wouldn’t really have the choice to focus on a single legend – in the same way that eles can trait and gear up to focus on a single element.
Going by the trait info that has been since been released and what Roy said (thanks for stopping in btw) it sounds like the mmorpg.com article just got it wrong. Unless “passive perks” didn’t refer to traits and was in fact referring to something we’ve never seen in GW2 before. Though in my experience that particular author is a bit of a twit.
My only remaining concern is the 50% refill on legend swap. I hope that there’ll be a trait which eg. loses that but boosts base energy regen a little. I really would not want to be flipping between legends as often as possible to maximise energy efficiency. I hate that style of build / play for eles and don’t touch it.
Perfectly happy to accept some players may enjoy it and have the option there but would like there to be others.
I believe by “passive perks” they meant things like “in Mallyx, conditions last for 10% longer” and “in Jallis, you gain bonus Toughness”. Or perhaps something more interesting like Mallyx’s current elite just being a passive effect in that stance.
Basically, what I got out of that is “just being in a Legend won’t give you perks, you have to actually use those skills for your active Legend to matter.”
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
I believe by “passive perks” they meant things like “in Mallyx, conditions last for 10% longer” and “in Jallis, you gain bonus Toughness”.
That could be it. Like the stat bonuses on ele conjured weapons. So their (quite reasonable) fear might have been players entering the legend stance with berserker stats and never, ever, ever leaving it.
example:
- “Eye for an eye – when disabled taunt that foe for a short duration”
example:
- “Eye for an eye – when you are hit by a disable while you have stability, taunt that foe for a short duration "
passive or not passive, taunt on stun makes just way more sense than taunt on stability. so just let it be.
retal is fine too.
Ex player of PeanutButterJellyTime, Heavenly Annoying and Visceral Gaming.
What I was really hoping to see was some traits designed to activate when you switch Legends, similar to how some of the other profession traits work.
“Be like water” – Bruce Lee
What I was really hoping to see was some traits designed to activate when you switch Legends, similar to how some of the other profession traits work.
this wouldn’t suprise me one bit they like to have effects like that eg weapon swap sigils perm swiftness on kit switching for engineers
What I was really hoping to see was some traits designed to activate when you switch Legends, similar to how some of the other profession traits work.
They had a few previewed. One that did an AoE damage burst if you had >50% energy, or a self heal if you had <50% energy, one that broke stuns, one that removed a condition…
What I was really hoping to see was some traits designed to activate when you switch Legends, similar to how some of the other profession traits work.
They had a few previewed. One that did an AoE damage burst if you had >50% energy, or a self heal if you had <50% energy, one that broke stuns, one that removed a condition…
I must have missed that. Thanks for replying. I hope they add a lot more synergy for switching Legends!
I suppose On Swap sigils will work with Legend change too.
“Be like water” – Bruce Lee
(edited by Lonewolf Kai.3682)
But lets not get carried away. People like to think RNG is some form of polio. I don’t have a lot of issues with the traits we currently have, passive or not. Traits and traitlines are designed to both give active effects, and passive effects. You can build both towards enhancing your strengths, or reducing your weaknesses. Any form of competition will have people trying to maximize their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses, so why do we complain about it in Guild Wars 2? People complain about the noobtube, but its by far not the most effective weapon. If you get into a fistfight, are you going to complain about someone that consistently blocks your left hook? Or what about someone who can just shrug off your blows passively?
Incorrect comparsion. Fistfight is not a “game” that is supposed to be balanced. Fistfight is not a game that is supposed to have build variety and counterplay against strong skills and traits. Some strong traits has no counterplay and can’t be predicted. Well known examples:
1)Incendiary Powder. Very overpowered trait that inflicts 4+ seconds of burning on critical hits. Critical hits = RNG, if you’re not using intelligence sigil. So, it randomly inflicts 4+ seconds of the strongest damaging condition in the game (fear with terror trait is too specific to count). Enemy player can do nothing about it – if he will dodge or block this trait just won’t prokittenil he is hit with critical attack.
He will get that burning no matter what he will do.
2)Any other on-crit-conditions. Why? Because it becomes impossible to be sure that by using certain condition-cleansing skill that removes 2 conditions you will remove that burning and poison from you, because if you will suddenly get vulnerability/bleeding above that from RNG passive trait proc, you will still have burning on you. It will only work if you’re using cleansing skill with instant cast and will be in the middle of the dodge roll. Yes, by using dodge roll to prevent applying 1 stack of vulnerability from RNG.
At least, all minor traits with on-crit-conditions should be removed, so the player will be forced to chose such trait from the other adept/master/grandmaster traits.
Exact minor traits:
Engineer’s Sharpshooter.
Elementalist’s Flame Barrier, Weak Spot.
Warrior’s Precise Strikes.
Necromanser’s Barbed Precision.
Mesmer’s Sharper Images.
HoT is just a cash grab.
Almost nothing in this game will ever be fixed.
Anet fix things only if it might increase gemstore sales.
Almost nothing in this game will ever be fixed.
Anet fix things only if it might increase gemstore sales.
But lets not get carried away. People like to think RNG is some form of polio. I don’t have a lot of issues with the traits we currently have, passive or not. Traits and traitlines are designed to both give active effects, and passive effects. You can build both towards enhancing your strengths, or reducing your weaknesses. Any form of competition will have people trying to maximize their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses, so why do we complain about it in Guild Wars 2? People complain about the noobtube, but its by far not the most effective weapon. If you get into a fistfight, are you going to complain about someone that consistently blocks your left hook? Or what about someone who can just shrug off your blows passively?
Incorrect comparsion. Fistfight is not a “game” that is supposed to be balanced. Fistfight is not a game that is supposed to have build variety and counterplay against strong skills and traits. Some strong traits has no counterplay and can’t be predicted. Well known examples:
1)Incendiary Powder. Very overpowered trait that inflicts 4+ seconds of burning on critical hits. Critical hits = RNG, if you’re not using intelligence sigil. So, it randomly inflicts 4+ seconds of the strongest damaging condition in the game (fear with terror trait is too specific to count). Enemy player can do nothing about it – if he will dodge or block this trait just won’t prokittenil he is hit with critical attack.He will get that burning no matter what he will do.
2)Any other on-crit-conditions. Why? Because it becomes impossible to be sure that by using certain condition-cleansing skill that removes 2 conditions you will remove that burning and poison from you, because if you will suddenly get vulnerability/bleeding above that from RNG passive trait proc, you will still have burning on you. It will only work if you’re using cleansing skill with instant cast and will be in the middle of the dodge roll. Yes, by using dodge roll to prevent applying 1 stack of vulnerability from RNG.
At least, all minor traits with on-crit-conditions should be removed, so the player will be forced to chose such trait from the other adept/master/grandmaster traits.
Exact minor traits:
Engineer’s Sharpshooter.
Elementalist’s Flame Barrier, Weak Spot.
Warrior’s Precise Strikes.
Necromanser’s Barbed Precision.
Mesmer’s Sharper Images.
They like rng in specs too much it’s lame and hurtful system. Surprised no MMO never got rid of it. Even power specs would be improved if there was no rng but just pure reward,who likes an rng balance,winning or grinding by it??
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
They like rng in specs too much it’s lame and hurtful system. Surprised no MMO never got rid of it. Even power specs would be improved if there was no rng but just pure reward,who likes an rng balance,winning or grinding by it??
And I’m the one who is against even just critical hits… I liked that example of HoTS where they desided to remove them and give item for 1 hit with 200% damage every 10 seconds.
prokittenil
Oh, those kittens are everywhere. Meant to be pro© until.
HoT is just a cash grab.
Almost nothing in this game will ever be fixed.
Anet fix things only if it might increase gemstore sales.
Almost nothing in this game will ever be fixed.
Anet fix things only if it might increase gemstore sales.
They like rng in specs too much it’s lame and hurtful system. Surprised no MMO never got rid of it. Even power specs would be improved if there was no rng but just pure reward,who likes an rng balance,winning or grinding by it??
And I’m the one who is against even just critical hits… I liked that example of HoTS where they desided to remove them and give item for 1 hit with 200% damage every 10 seconds.
prokittenil
Oh, those kittens are everywhere. Meant to be pro© until.
It’s common sense. Do you want it to have that much effect on your damage output or success rate? Back in C9 I used to hate maxing Freezing Shot but it would only freeze 1 out 5 times or my warrior’s grab not critically hitting despite pvp max crit rate was 70 and I had 60. Little faults and RNG eventually start to bug you like a splinter in your head. You asked your self:“I did everything right where is my proper reward?”.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread