Guild Wars 2

The really interesting thing there is players getting defiance. That could make PvE encounters generally so much more interesting. And of course PvP too, if you’re into that sort of thing.

DiogoSilva.7089:

However, I’m worried if a decent group can simply manage to avoid 100% of those epic/ dangerous gameplay scenarios. I hope there’s some additional, secondary mechanics that attempt to distract players and increase margin of error, so that timing CC doesn’t becomes as trivial as spamming it on target calling every single time.

I actually expect this to be the only difficult mechanic for the wyvern. It looks like it’s an early instance in the expansion (in the PoI, it was accessible off the starting area), so it’s very likely an introductory boss intended to teach you the new mechanics. Introductory bosses generally aren’t very difficult.

They’ve also obviously thought about this themselves. From the Ten Ton Hammer Interview:

We can do all sorts of different stuff with this and that’s cool. We can add conditions when they’re down, we have a guy that has one non-regenerating breakbar that goes down very slowly over a fight and once you break him he loses his armor and goes faster and does more damage. There’s a bunch of different implementations that we can do with it.

In the above variant, timing the breaking of defiance right would be pretty crucial and not just a matter of spamming your CC when the breakbar shows up. They could also do different things, such as making a boss vulnerable to CC during certain phases (but you’d still have to pick and choose which abilities during that phase you want to interrupt, or how much DPS you want to trade for CC by switching traits and utilities).

More generally, difficult encounters in MMOs tend to revolve around multiple concurrent mechanics. (Encounters that only involve one mechanic at a time generally aren’t challenging, unless they are gear checks, which GW2 doesn’t really have.) E.g. where you need to interrupt an ability, but also need to simultaneously kill an add before it explodes (or does other bad things). In which case each of the individual actions may be relatively straightforward, but coordinating your response to them isn’t.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Test.8734:

Based on what (little) information we have, that’s still useless in the current GW2.

The issue isn’t that we can’t interrupt the bosses. It’s that there’s no point in doing so. All bosses have slow attacks that can be dodged quite nicely. Why take CC skills and reduce your own DPS if you can just take more damage skills and dodge the boss’ big attack, instead of interrupting it?

Notice that the thing with the Wyvern is not that it has a strong, single attack – rather, it has been built so interrupting it also makes it more vulnerable to damage, which is something CC doesn’t do to any other boss in the game. In the end, it’s still about DPSing the boss faster, with CC helping in doing so, instead of interrupting a boss to really prevent it from doing something.

The current bosses in the game could be adapted so there’s actually a point in interrupting them… But let’s be real, ArenaNet is never going to rework so much of the original game.

From what I understood, and I might be wrong, if you interrupt the wyvern’s flight, you are not merely interrupting a single attack. You are interrupting an entire raid sequence while he is in the air, which I assume it means that you are preventing a massive amount of red circles and a stance that would make him incredible hard to target with melee weapons. A traditional, melee zerker party would probably get toasted while dealing little to no damage input in that scenario.

Exactly. The extra damage is a bonus. The actual reason you are CCing the wyvern is to prevent it from igniting half the battlefield while you can’t reach it.

Yep, and that mechanic is specific to the Wyvern. You are not interrupting an attack, which is (at most) what CC does to all the bosses currently in the game; the specific Wyvern boss has been made so CC is more effective there.

That’s not a bad thing. The bad thing is that, while CC and the new “Defiance” system have been made useful in a fight, they will still be useless in everything within the current GW2.

What confuses me is that they’re changing both defiance and stability, but not taking the opportunity to fuse them into a single mechanic. Especially since the new stability is basically the old defiance.

For example, instead of stability being boon stacks, why can’t it just give us a breakbar (with continued application increasing the bar)? Then just call it the Stability Bar, and turn defiance into a boss effect that makes it auto-regenerate. Without defiance, the bar only goes up when skills grant stability to fill it. If they want to keep a boon in play, then stability could go up gradually instead of all-at-once, via a weaker defiance-esque boon that stacks in duration to make the gauge fill up a tick each second.

I don’t see the point of upgrading B to C because you don’t like how B works, but then simultaneously upgrading A to B because you secretly do like how B works after all.

Caeledh.5437:

The really interesting thing there is players getting defiance. That could make PvE encounters generally so much more interesting. And of course PvP too, if you’re into that sort of thing.

If players are getting defiance aswell, I believe that it could open the door to help curb the zerk meta by taking things like toughness and healing and have those stats somewhat effect the rates which the Defiance bar drains and regens.

This however would require some more balancing.

Breakbar and stability stacks function differently. Stability doesn’t care what it prevents, one stack is removed. Breakbar, on the other hand, does care about what the incoming effect is. The stronger the effect, the more it reduces the bar.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

GoldenTruth.2853:

…I’d like some clarity in what happens to mobs when you deplete their defiance bar….

I believe we’re still balancing the broad-reaching solution but yes, a significant stun will be applied. Pretty sure we’ll be releasing more details through our channels real soon.

My concern is this – from what is being said, emptying the defiant bar results in a certain outcome, specific to the boss, rather then the system we have now where stripping defiant allows a CC of our choosing to go through. The current system gives groups more options.

For example, on mai trin, you man want to use your defiant-less window of opportunity to deep freeze her and get a burst of damage off, or you may want to use it to position her into a blue electric field. With this new break-bar system, it sounds like we would not be able to use our cc skills directly on the boss. Rather, they would serve only as a means to wear down the bar to achieve a scripted “vulnerability” event.

To me this makes fights less dynamic. There’s less tactical options because the game is basically holding your hand, saying “now spike cc, now burst, now dance around and avoid damage” rather then you controlling and making those opportunities yourself.

The break bar system will probably be better for zerg events where coordinating 20-50 people to any nuanced degree is an unreasonable expectation. But for 5 man content, I fear this will change encounters for the worst.

spoj.9672:

This bar is more pug friendly now. But it looks like it might be possible for organised groups to completely stunlock bosses with even greater ease (chain icebow 5’s).

And it is essentially the same system. Defiant stacks and defiant bar works the same way in that you have to strip it down to land a CC. The difference is each CC now contributes different amounts to the bar and the bar now regens. So solo players can no longer whittle down defiant stacks ready for an interrupt. So it makes it almost impossible to use effectively in solos but makes it easier for groups. Not really sure how i feel about this.

it isnt essentially the same system. its completely different.
its the wildstar IA system with a few small differences.

its also not easier for groups now. taking off stacks one by one and using deep freeze is easier than coordinating stuns, especially with larger groups.
they can build mechanics around the system like wildstar phageborn convergence hammer:
http://youtu.be/5Q5CiO90mmY?t=7m27s

and good instanced group content should be so hard that it is impossible to solo anything in the instance to begin with.

Beast Sos.1457:

It shouldnt be easy mode if we CC the boss. We should still have to be aware while fighting the boss, not waiting for it to start casting a attack and we all CC then GG. There shouldnt be a way to make a fight easy mode, like stacking in a corner, but there should be ways to make it easier/faster.

if you dont CC the boss when you have the opportunity you should be in trouble or even wipe. thats how it works in wildstar.

So they just changed the visual of the buff, and they will call it a major feature. The more info they give, the more this dlc seems tinier and tinier. It’s the result of 3 years of work, it is so sad.

Simzani.4318:

So they just changed the visual of the buff, and they will call it a major feature. The more info they give, the more this dlc seems tinier and tinier. It’s the result of 3 years of work, it is so sad.

Read the article and you will see it is a total rework of the buff.

Simzani.4318:

So they just changed the visual of the buff, and they will call it a major feature. The more info they give, the more this dlc seems tinier and tinier. It’s the result of 3 years of work, it is so sad.

I am quite certain they have never called this a “major feature” actually. And it is quite a bit more than just “changed the visual”.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

GoldenTruth.2853:

…I’d like some clarity in what happens to mobs when you deplete their defiance bar….

I believe we’re still balancing the broad-reaching solution but yes, a significant stun will be applied. Pretty sure we’ll be releasing more details through our channels real soon.

Ah, like guard break in Final Fantasy 13 then? Urgh. Nice Drag and Pull system if it`s executed well.
I don`t mind it, as long as it doesn`t become the lynchpin for every encounter

NoTrigger.8396:

spoj.9672:

This bar is more pug friendly now. But it looks like it might be possible for organised groups to completely stunlock bosses with even greater ease (chain icebow 5’s).

And it is essentially the same system. Defiant stacks and defiant bar works the same way in that you have to strip it down to land a CC. The difference is each CC now contributes different amounts to the bar and the bar now regens. So solo players can no longer whittle down defiant stacks ready for an interrupt. So it makes it almost impossible to use effectively in solos but makes it easier for groups. Not really sure how i feel about this.

it isnt essentially the same system. its completely different.
its the wildstar IA system with a few small differences.

its also not easier for groups now. taking off stacks one by one and using deep freeze is easier than coordinating stuns, especially with larger groups.
they can build mechanics around the system like wildstar phageborn convergence hammer:
http://youtu.be/5Q5CiO90mmY?t=7m27s

and good instanced group content should be so hard that it is impossible to solo anything in the instance to begin with.

By the looks of it it is going to require less CC to disable a boss. Which means it will be easier. Not to mention the massive visual queue to give even pugs with no communication a big hint at when to CC. When me and my friends do fractal 50 without ts we often end up using 2 icebow 5’s at the same time mid fight. So we are already doing exactly what this system wants us to do without any communication. There is really nothing remotely complicated about using a few CC’s at the same time. And if the type of stun is predetermined then it makes it even easier. Because you dont have to worry about who’s CC hits last when the bar is low or at zero.

And it is essentially the same system. You are CCing to remove strips/bar so you can CC. Its changing a lot but it still has a lot of similarities. The differences are in the details. Although if even basic champions and bosses get a predetermined stun instead of the choice of players CC then we are getting a very simplified and pointless use of CC in old content. It will be better for openworld stuff i wont deny that. But it looks like its providing less options to organised groups.

spoj.9672:

NoTrigger.8396:

spoj.9672:

This bar is more pug friendly now. But it looks like it might be possible for organised groups to completely stunlock bosses with even greater ease (chain icebow 5’s).

And it is essentially the same system. Defiant stacks and defiant bar works the same way in that you have to strip it down to land a CC. The difference is each CC now contributes different amounts to the bar and the bar now regens. So solo players can no longer whittle down defiant stacks ready for an interrupt. So it makes it almost impossible to use effectively in solos but makes it easier for groups. Not really sure how i feel about this.

it isnt essentially the same system. its completely different.
its the wildstar IA system with a few small differences.

its also not easier for groups now. taking off stacks one by one and using deep freeze is easier than coordinating stuns, especially with larger groups.
they can build mechanics around the system like wildstar phageborn convergence hammer:
http://youtu.be/5Q5CiO90mmY?t=7m27s

and good instanced group content should be so hard that it is impossible to solo anything in the instance to begin with.

By the looks of it it is going to require less CC to disable a boss. Which means it will be easier. Not to mention the massive visual queue to give even pugs with no communication a big hint at when to CC. When me and my friends do fractal 50 without ts we often end up using 2 icebow 5’s at the same time mid fight. So we are already doing exactly what this system wants us to do without any communication. There is really nothing remotely complicated about using a few CC’s at the same time. And if the type of stun is predetermined then it makes it even easier. Because you dont have to worry about who’s CC hits last when the bar is low or at zero.

And it is essentially the same system. You are CCing to remove strips/bar so you can CC. Its changing a lot but it still has a lot of similarities. The differences are in the details. Although if even basic champions and bosses get a predetermined stun instead of the choice of players CC then we are getting a very simplified and pointless use of CC in old content. It will be better for openworld stuff i wont deny that. But it looks like its providing less options to organised groups.

I’m sure organised groups will find a way to adapt.

One icebow #5 will probably deplete a large chunk of defiance bar by themselves. Add something like thief pistol #4 spam or the mesmer dazing shatter and you can call it a day. Once the defiance bar is gone, use your remaining icebow #5 and here you go.

The point is that the effect of the icebow #5 will never actually happen to the boss, no matter how much of the bar it takes.

Jaken.6801:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

GoldenTruth.2853:

…I’d like some clarity in what happens to mobs when you deplete their defiance bar….

I believe we’re still balancing the broad-reaching solution but yes, a significant stun will be applied. Pretty sure we’ll be releasing more details through our channels real soon.

Ah, like guard break in Final Fantasy 13 then? Urgh. Nice Drag and Pull system if it`s executed well.
I don`t mind it, as long as it doesn`t become the lynchpin for every encounter

I don’t think it will be core encounter mechanic, but I bet most encounters will be much easier when utilizing this, because you will be able to stop the boss casting some huge spell, or it will give you a time to burn the boss down a bit to shorten/skip the hard phase, it also depends how they implement it in each encounter, if the boss will continue with last spell after stun or just skip it and continue with next one

VodCom.6924:

spoj.9672:

NoTrigger.8396:

spoj.9672:

This bar is more pug friendly now. But it looks like it might be possible for organised groups to completely stunlock bosses with even greater ease (chain icebow 5’s).

And it is essentially the same system. Defiant stacks and defiant bar works the same way in that you have to strip it down to land a CC. The difference is each CC now contributes different amounts to the bar and the bar now regens. So solo players can no longer whittle down defiant stacks ready for an interrupt. So it makes it almost impossible to use effectively in solos but makes it easier for groups. Not really sure how i feel about this.

it isnt essentially the same system. its completely different.
its the wildstar IA system with a few small differences.

its also not easier for groups now. taking off stacks one by one and using deep freeze is easier than coordinating stuns, especially with larger groups.
they can build mechanics around the system like wildstar phageborn convergence hammer:
http://youtu.be/5Q5CiO90mmY?t=7m27s

and good instanced group content should be so hard that it is impossible to solo anything in the instance to begin with.

By the looks of it it is going to require less CC to disable a boss. Which means it will be easier. Not to mention the massive visual queue to give even pugs with no communication a big hint at when to CC. When me and my friends do fractal 50 without ts we often end up using 2 icebow 5’s at the same time mid fight. So we are already doing exactly what this system wants us to do without any communication. There is really nothing remotely complicated about using a few CC’s at the same time. And if the type of stun is predetermined then it makes it even easier. Because you dont have to worry about who’s CC hits last when the bar is low or at zero.

And it is essentially the same system. You are CCing to remove strips/bar so you can CC. Its changing a lot but it still has a lot of similarities. The differences are in the details. Although if even basic champions and bosses get a predetermined stun instead of the choice of players CC then we are getting a very simplified and pointless use of CC in old content. It will be better for openworld stuff i wont deny that. But it looks like its providing less options to organised groups.

I’m sure organised groups will find a way to adapt.

2 icebow #5 will probably deplete a large chunk of defiance bar by themselves. Add something like thief pistol #4 spam or the mesmer dazing shatter and you can call it a day.

Thats what im saying. Its going to be easier. But it might also be completely useless if breaking the bar always gives a predetermined stun. Ofcourse we will adapt. Doesnt mean we should embrace a system which reduces options and makes things easier.

For the record i think the new system is a really good improvement. Especially for future encounters which are designed with it in mind. But im really concerned about how limiting its going to be for older content and standard champions.

spoj.9672:

By the looks of it it is going to require less CC to disable a boss. Which means it will be easier. Not to mention the massive visual queue to give even pugs with no communication a big hint at when to CC. When me and my friends do fractal 50 without ts we often end up using 2 icebow 5’s at the same time mid fight. So we are already doing exactly what this system wants us to do without any communication. There is really nothing remotely complicated about using a few CC’s at the same time. And if the type of stun is predetermined then it makes it even easier. Because you dont have to worry about who’s CC hits last when the bar is low or at zero.

And it is essentially the same system. You are CCing to remove strips/bar so you can CC. Its changing a lot but it still has a lot of similarities. The differences are in the details. Although if even basic champions and bosses get a predetermined stun instead of the choice of players CC then we are getting a very simplified and pointless use of CC in old content. It will be better for openworld stuff i wont deny that. But it looks like its providing less options to organised groups.

it really only depends on what anet will do with the new system. but let me give you a few examples from wildstar.

http://youtu.be/5Q5CiO90mmY?t=7m27s
i already linked this video. what you see is a “middle phase” during a boss fight. the boss has 20 IA -> needs 21 interrupts to CC him. if you dont remove his IA you will wipe.
each time you use an interrupt to remove a stack, everyone will take damage.
if you use 3 interrupts at the same time there will be too much incoming damage and you will wipe. your time to remove the 20 stacks is limited (time of boss cast).
what you have to do is 2 kicks -> heal -> 2 kicks -> heal and so on. imagine this in gw2. each time after you use 2 cc skills you have to blast combo fields to heal the raid and use defensive buffs/boons to reduce the incoming damage.
sounds easier than it is. trust me it is difficult.

basically you use and coordinate CC to win, but at the same time the system fights against you.

http://youtu.be/5Q5CiO90mmY?t=10m20s
another middle phase of a different boss in the same fight

you lose your weapon, you can get it back by using a cc break or running into your weapon on the ground.
if you run into a red circle you will lose your weapon again. without your weapon you cant interrupt. your time to interrupt is again limited.
if you dont interrupt -> wipe. you have to interrupt him (remove 10 stacks) at the same time or the boss will regenerate his 10 IA really quickly and you will run out of interrupts. if there is only 1 second delay between the interrupts you are pretty much kittened.

ofc for a gw2 version of both of the above examples you could say you simply use more CC skills than needed. this is where the gw2 system is different so that some CC skills remove less of the defiance bar + if you are busy changing your weapons and kittening up your perfect rotation you wont be able to kill the boss before the enrage timer hits.

http://youtu.be/b-0g0bevL08?t=4s
earth air elemental pair in wildstar. you are fighting 2 bosses at the same time. the earth boss has a buff that stacks. if he gains too many stacks he will destroy you. you can remove the stacks by running into a tornado, tornado knocks you up into the air, then you have to land on the boss (thats basically your cc skill). if you dont land on the boss you will die from falling damage. then he has his special attack. and alot of players have to jump and land on him at the same time to interrupt it. in the 40 man version this was a little bit different because you removed interrupt armor.

in gw2 you could say you have to interrupt/deplete his defiance bar by jumping constantly as soon as the boss reaches a certain amount of stacks. if you dont he will become so strong he will kill you. and when the boss does his super attack everyone has to jump to interrupt it.

there are even some trash mobs that have 2 different attacks that can be interrupted. one heal ability and another one. you have to choose what you want to interrupt. and each time you interrupted an ability, you have to use one more CC skill when you interrupt the next time ( 4 kicks → 5 kicks → 6 kicks …….).

the examples and varity how this system is used in wildstar is infinite. even if its just a boss fight with a tight enrage timer and you need that MoO after interrupting the big attack to make the dps check.
it all depends what anet will build around this system and in the end it will be better for the future and lead to more interesting and challenging stuff if they are doing it right.

Simzani.4318:

So they just changed the visual of the buff, and they will call it a major feature. The more info they give, the more this dlc seems tinier and tinier. It’s the result of 3 years of work, it is so sad.

IIRC, we were told very clearly from the outset that the expansion is intended to be a strictly quality over quantity deal, similar to how Final Fantasy XIV ended up working.

In truth, how worthwhile the expansion will be has nothing to do with crap about how big the heightmaps will be or how many new maps there will be or how many build permutations the Revenant has.

And as has already been said, ANet have already specifically defined this as not a major feature. It wasn’t at the announcement, and the announcement touched on everything they considered important.

The alternative explanation is that the revamp of Defiance (in its cruder, retrofitting old content form) could hit before the Expansion as part of a features update.

spoj.9672:

NoTrigger.8396:

spoj.9672:

This bar is more pug friendly now. But it looks like it might be possible for organised groups to completely stunlock bosses with even greater ease (chain icebow 5’s).

And it is essentially the same system. Defiant stacks and defiant bar works the same way in that you have to strip it down to land a CC. The difference is each CC now contributes different amounts to the bar and the bar now regens. So solo players can no longer whittle down defiant stacks ready for an interrupt. So it makes it almost impossible to use effectively in solos but makes it easier for groups. Not really sure how i feel about this.

it isnt essentially the same system. its completely different.
its the wildstar IA system with a few small differences.

its also not easier for groups now. taking off stacks one by one and using deep freeze is easier than coordinating stuns, especially with larger groups.
they can build mechanics around the system like wildstar phageborn convergence hammer:
http://youtu.be/5Q5CiO90mmY?t=7m27s

and good instanced group content should be so hard that it is impossible to solo anything in the instance to begin with.

By the looks of it it is going to require less CC to disable a boss. Which means it will be easier. Not to mention the massive visual queue to give even pugs with no communication a big hint at when to CC. When me and my friends do fractal 50 without ts we often end up using 2 icebow 5’s at the same time mid fight. So we are already doing exactly what this system wants us to do without any communication. There is really nothing remotely complicated about using a few CC’s at the same time. And if the type of stun is predetermined then it makes it even easier. Because you dont have to worry about who’s CC hits last when the bar is low or at zero.

And it is essentially the same system. You are CCing to remove strips/bar so you can CC. Its changing a lot but it still has a lot of similarities. The differences are in the details. Although if even basic champions and bosses get a predetermined stun instead of the choice of players CC then we are getting a very simplified and pointless use of CC in old content. It will be better for openworld stuff i wont deny that. But it looks like its providing less options to organised groups.

Actually the amount of CC required to remove the bar will depend on how good coordinated the group is. The Breakbar will regenarate over time, probably a lot faster when the event scales, which means PUGs will have a harder time to CC a boss. Although it’s a better visual representation, if you just spam CC, the boss will regenerate the Breakbar and never actualy be CCed.

The way I see it, to CC a champion/legendary you will have to coordinate CC on them. Unlike the current system which is “spam for the win!”.

What is interesting to know is if this bar will be available to bosses from the start, or they will have to be CCed first. If the bar is always active, then the usual boss openings with Frostbow 5 will require some extra coordination and teamwork to pull off.

And of course second thing is what will happen to the boss once the bar is depleted, will it depend on the final skill used or will it be a standard stun etc

You are CCing to remove strips/bar so you can CC.

There is a difference between spamming CC skills to remove 5 stacks, and having to coordinate 5 skills on the boss to remove it. I don’t think they are very similar mechanics

maddoctor.2738:

And of course second thing is what will happen to the boss once the bar is depleted, will it depend on the final skill used or will it be a standard stun etc

i believe they already said there will be different stuff that will happen when the bar is depleted depending on the encounter.

I was primarily talking about its implementation in old content. I have no doubt it will be a better system for new encounters which are designed with it in mind and have unique break bar mechanics.

But for old content its going to be a big step back unless we can at least still decide what CC gets applied.

spoj.9672:

I was primarily talking about its implementation in old content. I have no doubt it will be a better system for new encounters which are designed with it in mind and have unique break bar mechanics.

But for old content its going to be a big step back unless we can at least still decide what CC gets applied.

well if they use the “basic” of the new defiance system for the old content and make the stun duration that they were talking about the same as deep freeze it will not make a big difference unless you solo the boss.

There are two more things about the break bar that I’m interested in and hoping to find out more about soon:

• Will there be scenarios where a break bar is up but CC will also have its regular effects? e.g., Illusions that don’t take damage and are destroyed by breaking the caster sounds like lore-appropriate, and very helpful buff to the mesmer in most content, but making mesmers nigh-immune to CC would probably be a problem.
• When there’s nothing to break, the break bar doesn’t look like it gets disabled to me. What does the orange condition icon mean? What do the twelve sections mean?

rfdarko.4639:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

GoldenTruth.2853:

…I’d like some clarity in what happens to mobs when you deplete their defiance bar….

I believe we’re still balancing the broad-reaching solution but yes, a significant stun will be applied. Pretty sure we’ll be releasing more details through our channels real soon.

My concern is this – from what is being said, emptying the defiant bar results in a certain outcome, specific to the boss, rather then the system we have now where stripping defiant allows a CC of our choosing to go through. The current system gives groups more options.

For example, on mai trin, you man want to use your defiant-less window of opportunity to deep freeze her and get a burst of damage off, or you may want to use it to position her into a blue electric field. With this new break-bar system, it sounds like we would not be able to use our cc skills directly on the boss. Rather, they would serve only as a means to wear down the bar to achieve a scripted “vulnerability” event.

To me this makes fights less dynamic. There’s less tactical options because the game is basically holding your hand, saying “now spike cc, now burst, now dance around and avoid damage” rather then you controlling and making those opportunities yourself.

The break bar system will probably be better for zerg events where coordinating 20-50 people to any nuanced degree is an unreasonable expectation. But for 5 man content, I fear this will change encounters for the worst.

That’s my main concern as well: each cc’s effect nuances are completely irrelevant.

What if I want to control a boss’ position with launch, fear or taunt? What if I want to blind a boss so that his confusion stacks can still tick off? Etc.

I hope we get bosses designed around CC’s innate effects. Bosses where position and movement control matter, for example. Something like this:

Kiting Boss
Super hard to catch with melee options.
When defiance bar is emptied, he is no longer immune to movement-impairing control for 10 seconds.
Said boss would have condition cleansing and stun breaking skills so that, within those 10s, players would need to immobilize/ fear/ launch/ taunt several times, or even force the boss to have those skills on cooldown before the defiance bar is emptied.

Reminds me of why my friends and I would pack Sonic Bombs fighting Nargacuga in MHFU – to completely skip some attacks and force it into a pattern we could fight through practice.

Not that it was easier so much . . . if we were not careful or not in sync with each other, it led to some fabulous negative effects.

In theory, for at least the new bosses, there might be little need for any special CC defence when the boss doesn’t have a break bar up. If using a Deep Freeze on a boss means that you’ll risk missing out on a MoO five seconds later (and let the boss use its nastiest attacks into the bargain), then people are going to use it more carefully.

That said, I am of course very much looking forward to seeing "------- ------- DON’T READ ------- CHAT NO ------- CC OR WE WILL ------- FAIL NICE ------- WORK YOU ------- -------" and the like make a reappearance in map chat.

spoj.9672:

I was primarily talking about its implementation in old content. I have no doubt it will be a better system for new encounters which are designed with it in mind and have unique break bar mechanics.

But for old content its going to be a big step back unless we can at least still decide what CC gets applied.

I do see your point about the cc always being a stun (even though Im not convinced that will always be the case). I only see it being an issue with ccs that involve deliberately wanting to move the target (pulls, taunts, fears, knockbacks and launches). They probably do need to make sure we have some way of controlling target position through ccs. To me, the obvious solution is to apply the affect of the last actual cc, followed by the stun – so if the boss is launched, it will be moved then stunned (this shouldnt apply to large legendary bosses where launches would be illogical, of course).

For the most part, however, I dont think this will be a big issue. Most champion fights are already fairly simplistic, so ccs really don’t play a big role (and I dont see that changing).

There are a few existing fights where this could – and I think will – make the fights a little more dynamic. The first that comes to mind is the Risen Priest of Melandru. As it stands, it is very unclear what causes him to stop casting his transformation skill on players. It is a well designed open world boss that suffers from a lack of communicated information. This change will fix that.

To use a more recent example, take the champion beetle in Dry Top (sandstorm phase). Most people dont realize that if you get enough interrupts onto that boss, it will flip over and take (I believe) double damage as you attack its underbelly. I actually think this fight was a soft test (along with Three Toed Tootsie) of new interrupt mechanics in preparation for HOT. Adding the break bar to that fight will make the mechanics more obvious, adding more depth to the fight.

I predict warrior greatsword / mace/mace meta for defiance stripping!

Gyler.8150:

I predict warrior greatsword / mace/mace meta for defiance stripping!

Na, Axe/Mace <> Hammer

Foefaller.1082:

Gyler.8150:

I predict warrior greatsword / mace/mace meta for defiance stripping!

Na, Axe/Mace <> Hammer

CCs are actually pretty well spread out among professions with a few that need a little love (hopefully coming in HOT).

Hammer warriors are good at AOE ccs (thus why they are so desired in wvw), but when dealing with single targets, I usually think of thieves, mesmers and engineers first. Mesmers in particular have some strong ranged ccs on short(ish) cooldowns that will make them ideal for fights like the one described.

As the professions stand now (of course, alot is getting ready to change), necromancers and elementalists probably have the lowest number of ccs, even though a good terrormancer may end up being useful in pve now ((I dont play an ele much so not sure about that one).

Blaeys.3102:

Foefaller.1082:

Gyler.8150:

I predict warrior greatsword / mace/mace meta for defiance stripping!

Na, Axe/Mace <> Hammer

CCs are actually pretty well spread out among professions with a few that need a little love (hopefully coming in HOT).

Hammer warriors are good at AOE ccs (thus why they are so desired in wvw), but when dealing with single targets, I usually think of thieves, mesmers and engineers first. Mesmers in particular have some strong ranged ccs on short(ish) cooldowns that will make them ideal for fights like the one described.

As the professions stand now (of course, alot is getting ready to change), necromancers and elementalists probably have the lowest number of ccs, even though a good terrormancer may end up being useful in pve now ((I dont play an ele much so not sure about that one).

Eles usually have one or two CCs at their fingertips when in Air and Earth attunments, almost regardless of weapons equiped. Most last only a sec or less though, or require a specific action on the target’s part (like trying to walk over a wall effect or attacking the ele with shock aura is up) which is why they don’t show up as much in PvE as they do in pvp.

As for Necromancers, remember that blind is now a control effect as well, which means both Plague Form and Well of Darkness will work as ways to chip down the breakbar. Warhorn also has a daze that lasts a decent amount of time (2s base, 3s traited) that just doesn’t see as much use as a part of a necro’s main weapon set.

Oh my goodness… I just thought of something…

Dark fields blind with leap and blast finishers, and smoke fields do that with projectile and whirl finishers.

Will Necromancers be called to drop a well on queue that everyone blasts to help chip down the breakbar? Or a thief a smoke screen for the party to shoot through?

Keep in mind, for those concerned about solo play, that the overall value of the bar, and possibly the recharge (is the recharge a flat value or percentage of the total buffer?) should mirror the existing defiance mechanics.

Thus, if you’re soloing a champion, your burst CC should theoretically be sufficient since there’s less bar to run through, but the regenerating behavior doesn’t require/allow pre-stunning to interrupt with a single skill.

In this light, lesser CCs like blind spamming might be a lot more useful when soloing these kinds of encounters just to keep the bar down to a level where you can finish it off.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

Foefaller.1082:

Oh my goodness… I just thought of something…

Dark fields blind with leap and blast finishers, and smoke fields do that with projectile and whirl finishers.

Will Necromancers be called to drop a well on queue that everyone blasts to help chip down the breakbar? Or a thief a smoke screen for the party to shoot through?

Yeah, the easy access to blindness through combo fields is something that we’re paying attention to in balancing break bars, though it isn’t as impactful as it initially appears. Most control abilities aren’t projectiles or leap or blast finishers, so the skill combo generally comes at the cost of the player using a skill that doesn’t cause CC on it’s own.

On the other hand, skill combos do provide a good way that people can coordinate to get a bit more progress against the bar, and can be used to help people running builds without much control to contribute.

Yeah, I’d be surprised if you guys didn’t made it so that it would take several skill combo blinds to remove as much of the bar as any hard CC would (except for maybe thief’s Head shot… though that is part of the list of CCs that are also finishers, soo…)

Blaeys.3102:

Foefaller.1082:

Gyler.8150:

I predict warrior greatsword / mace/mace meta for defiance stripping!

Na, Axe/Mace <> Hammer

CCs are actually pretty well spread out among professions with a few that need a little love (hopefully coming in HOT).

Hammer warriors are good at AOE ccs (thus why they are so desired in wvw), but when dealing with single targets, I usually think of thieves, mesmers and engineers first. Mesmers in particular have some strong ranged ccs on short(ish) cooldowns that will make them ideal for fights like the one described.

As the professions stand now (of course, alot is getting ready to change), necromancers and elementalists probably have the lowest number of ccs, even though a good terrormancer may end up being useful in pve now ((I dont play an ele much so not sure about that one).

Thing about Necros is, I’d say our most common PvE build is Dagger + Warhorn/Focus. This means (when counting Death Shroud) we have 5 CC’s with our Weapons alone (6 if Using Dagger/Horn + Staff), and we do not pay in DPS for it, as spamming Dagger 1 and casting Well of Suffering and Corruption on CD (well, and after eventual firecombofields) is pretty much where we can squeeze the most DPS out of. Other classes (Warri with GS eg.) would need to trade out their second weapon-set for the most part, which is usually used to max out the DPS, effectively lowering total DPS on those classes. In theory, anyway, because all Warriors I’ve seen in dungeons so far is spam their GS and thats it. And GS has only a 4 second cripple on one skill, while warhorn applies cripple for 2 seconds 10 times (more if traited) and also has a daze, which apparently will hit a higher chunk off the breakbar. Then again, we’ll need to see this system in action, and I’m wondering if we might not see this applied before HoT hits. Same goes for the stability change.

Dagger/warhorn has 2 hard CC’s. Dagger/focus has 1.

Necros are not at all in an advantage.

I got mixed feelings about the new defiant. On one hand i fully understand it’s meaning and role in open world content. With 100 players tackling a champ you can’t hope for coordinated defiance removal and using that one, long lasting cc at the right moment.

But for instanced content like dungeons, the old defiance is way better in my opinion. Coordinating cc skills to remove defiant, and then using that superior cc to interrupt, or at least keep it a bay for few precious seconds is a great system, that rewards teams that know what their doing and punisher button mashers that pay no attention to what they’re pressing.

Also the new system rears it’s ugly head with no real choice of what happens when defiance is broken. Instead of us having control (will we fear it, pull it, blow it away, stun it etc) we’re down to one pre-determined boss mechanic if i understood correctly. Feels like “communistic choice” to me.

Also going a peg down from chaps an onto elites – I would like to see the day where “safety mechanics” are taken off, and if a mob can push me off a cliff, then i can do the same to it for fast, brutal kill. Pulling them into a deadly trap (like in sparkfly fen’s even to deal with 2 risen krait veterans), or stunning them so another deadly trap has time to trigger and catch them, would also make for great encounters if you ask me.

Hello ArenaNet!
I’d really love to see an answer to these two questions regarding the new defiance system and the mesmer.

1. The new defiance system allows you to change the way CC works on a boss.
   Back when GW2 launched Mesmers were allowed to use the Moa Polymorph skill on every foe for full duration. In some point it was nerfed.
   At the moment Moa allpies on Veterans for 10 seconds, on Elites for 5/6 seconds, on Champions for 3 seconds and on Legends it only applies for a blink on an eye so you cannot even see the transformation.
   I’m curious what you guys think about this skill and defiance 2.0. It could be a reworked for it’s behaviour on boss monsters. Let’s say it only works when the defiance bar is broken. That’d be enough.
2. The Moa isn’t the only mesmer CC nerfed to absolutely uselessness. I think it was for 24 hours when mesmers were able to actually use Power Block in PvE. Ofcourse it was not intended to work like this but after it was nerfed it was absolutly useless in PvE. You don’t want to put a boss’ skill on 10 seconds cooldown for defiance to refill to full stacks. You want it to be frozen by an elementalists Ice Bow. And if it’s no boss you’re fighting then you ususally fight a veteran or a group of Elite mobs which do not even have cooldown on their skills and cannot be put on cooldown by Power Block.
   (Psst! – Back in GW1 power block was an elite skill that was able to deactivate the enemies whole skillbar for up to 13 seconds and only had 20 seconds cooldown)

I really hope that the new defiance system can change these two issues.
~ Me Games Ma

Shiki.7148:

Then again, we’ll need to see this system in action, and I’m wondering if we might not see this applied before HoT hits. Same goes for the stability change.

I would maybe expect some prepatch as other games do (or at least WoW), which is in fact a part of datadisk content which will be accessible even for people without datadisk… usually balance, skills, talents etc, so people can get used to new mechanics before datadisk launches…

Final Guild Wars Fantasy XIII-2

Srsly though I’m excited for this. Lots of potential.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Dagger/warhorn has 2 hard CC’s. Dagger/focus has 1.

Necros are not at all in an advantage.

Not only hard CC works on defiance, heck, BLIND is confirmed to take down some of the defiance. So yes, we have 5 skills to dimish the defiance-breakbar on dagger/focus + warhorn. And actually if you only count “hard cc” we have only daze and fear, immob isn’t really a hard CC, the affected person can still cast and attack.

Shiki.7148:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Dagger/warhorn has 2 hard CC’s. Dagger/focus has 1.

Necros are not at all in an advantage.

Not only hard CC works on defiance, heck, BLIND is confirmed to take down some of the defiance. So yes, we have 5 skills to dimish the defiance-breakbar on dagger/focus + warhorn. And actually if you only count “hard cc” we have only daze and fear, immob isn’t really a hard CC, the affected person can still cast and attack.

Hence why Dagger/Warhorn has 2 hard CC’s instead of 3. The 1 fear that all Necros have regardless of build, and the daze.

Yes, Blind will affect break bars. AT NO POINT have we seen that cripple, chill, or immobilize will. What does Blind do? The next attack does NOTHING. It might be short-lived, but that is a hard CC.

Maybe, just maybe, Immobilize will also count as a hard CC (since it prevents movement aside from teleports entirely). Cripple and Chill I highly doubt.

TLDR: stop spreading rumors that Necros will be any better off against new Defiance because we have good access to things that were never mentioned to do anything.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Shiki.7148:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Dagger/warhorn has 2 hard CC’s. Dagger/focus has 1.

Necros are not at all in an advantage.

Not only hard CC works on defiance, heck, BLIND is confirmed to take down some of the defiance. So yes, we have 5 skills to dimish the defiance-breakbar on dagger/focus + warhorn. And actually if you only count “hard cc” we have only daze and fear, immob isn’t really a hard CC, the affected person can still cast and attack.

Hence why Dagger/Warhorn has 2 hard CC’s instead of 3. The 1 fear that all Necros have regardless of build, and the daze.

Yes, Blind will affect break bars. AT NO POINT have we seen that cripple, chill, or immobilize will. What does Blind do? The next attack does NOTHING. It might be short-lived, but that is a hard CC.

Maybe, just maybe, Immobilize will also count as a hard CC (since it prevents movement aside from teleports entirely). Cripple and Chill I highly doubt.

TLDR: stop spreading rumors that Necros will be any better off against new Defiance because we have good access to things that were never mentioned to do anything.

Ever read the tooltip of the boss-buff? Blind chance is reduced to 10%. And even if it doesn’t count against he breakbar, chill could slow down the activation time of the stance change/huge attack you are supposed to interrupt, and maybe even slow down the recharge of the break bar. Because if they won’t count as CC, they would apply their effects as normal. We’ll just have to wait and see.

Many conditions are reduced by unshakeable simply to balance them for boss fights. If blinds worked without fail on bosses they would be overpowered. However in unshakeables current form blind is still completely useless. The other conditions only have reduced duration. Blind is different to movement impairing conditions as Drarnor mentioned. Its a form of hard CC for trash mobs but doesnt work on bosses because it would be too strong. Now it will atleast have a use. Chill, cripple and weakness already work fine on bosses. And frankly it would be over the top if they reduced the break bar. Chill only increases cooldown time. It has no effect on the skill when it is cast.

I dont even know how you could come to the conclusion that they would count towards it in the first place. The unshakeable buff hardly makes for a convincing reason.

For the new defiance bar:
How will traited interrupts affect the bar?
1) Will traits that give additional effect to a control effect, such as Mesmer Halting Strike trait (Domination 2) or Necromancer Terror (Curses 9), impart a greater effect on the bar?

2) If you have a trait that activates on an interrupt, such as Mesmer Confounding Suggestions (Domination 12), will using a control effect on the bar count as an interrupt proccing such a trait to further deplete the bar?

3) Will effects from traits, sigils (and food?) that increase durations of control effects, such as Necromancer Master of Terror (Soul Reaping 9), impact the bar more?

spoj.9672:

Many conditions are reduced by unshakeable simply to balance them for boss fights. If blinds worked without fail on bosses they would be overpowered. However in unshakeables current form blind is still completely useless. The other conditions only have reduced duration. Blind is different to movement impairing conditions as Drarnor mentioned. Its a form of hard CC for trash mobs but doesnt work on bosses because it would be too strong. Now it will atleast have a use. Chill, cripple and weakness already work fine on bosses. And frankly it would be over the top if they reduced the break bar. Chill only increases cooldown time. It has no effect on the skill when it is cast.

I dont even know how you could come to the conclusion that they would count towards it in the first place. The unshakeable buff hardly makes for a convincing reason.

They said “all kinds of CC”, and Cripple and Chill are CC’s in my book – they slow down the opponent, chill even slows cooldowns. Imho they would have said something like “everything that currently strips defiance” instead of “every CC” if those were excluded. If they are, well, just another thing to make Necros garbage in PvE. And as I said, maybe chill will at least slow the recharge of the bar.