The New Defiance(Article)
Many conditions are reduced by unshakeable simply to balance them for boss fights. If blinds worked without fail on bosses they would be overpowered. However in unshakeables current form blind is still completely useless. The other conditions only have reduced duration. Blind is different to movement impairing conditions as Drarnor mentioned. Its a form of hard CC for trash mobs but doesnt work on bosses because it would be too strong. Now it will atleast have a use. Chill, cripple and weakness already work fine on bosses. And frankly it would be over the top if they reduced the break bar. Chill only increases cooldown time. It has no effect on the skill when it is cast.
I dont even know how you could come to the conclusion that they would count towards it in the first place. The unshakeable buff hardly makes for a convincing reason.
They said “all kinds of CC”, and Cripple and Chill are CC’s in my book – they slow down the opponent, chill even slows cooldowns. Imho they would have said something like “everything that currently strips defiance” instead of “every CC” if those were excluded. If they are, well, just another thing to make Necros garbage in PvE. And as I said, maybe chill will at least slow the recharge of the bar.
Cripple and Chill are not currently prevented by the defiance bar. We have discussed including these conditions, but the effect that they have on bosses is significantly less than other control abilities. For ranged bosses, cripple does nothing to hinder them, and even for melee bosses, it’s uncommon for them to not have targets in range to attack. The cooldown increase on chill makes a better case for it being included, but it’s currently not prevented by the defiance system. We may adjust this based on balance and feedback, but at the current time, we don’t feel like they have a reliable enough control effect on bosses to be included in the defiance system.
Many conditions are reduced by unshakeable simply to balance them for boss fights. If blinds worked without fail on bosses they would be overpowered. However in unshakeables current form blind is still completely useless. The other conditions only have reduced duration. Blind is different to movement impairing conditions as Drarnor mentioned. Its a form of hard CC for trash mobs but doesnt work on bosses because it would be too strong. Now it will atleast have a use. Chill, cripple and weakness already work fine on bosses. And frankly it would be over the top if they reduced the break bar. Chill only increases cooldown time. It has no effect on the skill when it is cast.
I dont even know how you could come to the conclusion that they would count towards it in the first place. The unshakeable buff hardly makes for a convincing reason.
They said “all kinds of CC”, and Cripple and Chill are CC’s in my book – they slow down the opponent, chill even slows cooldowns. Imho they would have said something like “everything that currently strips defiance” instead of “every CC” if those were excluded. If they are, well, just another thing to make Necros garbage in PvE. And as I said, maybe chill will at least slow the recharge of the bar.
Cripple and Chill are not currently prevented by the defiance bar. We have discussed including these conditions, but the effect that they have on bosses is significantly less than other control abilities. For ranged bosses, cripple does nothing to hinder them, and even for melee bosses, it’s uncommon for them to not have targets in range to attack. The cooldown increase on chill makes a better case for it being included, but it’s currently not prevented by the defiance system. We may adjust this based on balance and feedback, but at the current time, we don’t feel like they have a reliable enough control effect on bosses to be included in the defiance system.
Since we’ve cleared up Cripple and Chill, could we perhaps also get clarification on Immobilize?
I would assume it would be the same as chill and cripple. Or atleast i hope so. I dont want to see soft cc conditions becoming useless other than for removing the break bar. Chaining immob is one of the more coordinated and rewarding tactics for certain bosses. I dont want to see that go as its not particularly easy for all team compositions to pull off as it is.
(edited by spoj.9672)
It would assume it would be the same as chill and cripple. Or atleast i hope so. I dont want to see soft cc conditions becoming useless other than for removing the break bar. Chaining immob is one of the more coordinated and rewarding tactics for certain bosses. I dont want to see that go as its not particularly easy for all team compositions to pull off as it is.
I don’t want to see it affect the break bar either, but it’s best to get it clarified anyway.
Effects that trigger on control abilities or interrupts are treated in the same way as they are with the current Defiance system when the boss has one or more stacks of defiance. I believe they don’t trigger, though I’d have to go test it out to be sure.
All on interrupt effects trigger when you interrupt a boss monster that has defiant stacks on it. It just won’t interrupt the mob.
Halting strike triggers the damage, Chaotic Interruption will inflict the conditions and Bountiful Interruption will buff the mesmer. The only thing that does not happen is the interrupt.
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Btw: That also was the cause of Power Block being able to interrupt bosses eventhough they had defiant stacks. The cooldown was applied to the skill before it was finished and when the skill “tried” to cause it’s effect it couldn’t work because the skill was already on cooldown.
Mindblossom – Sylvari – Mesmer – Jumpingpuzzler
Equinox [EqnX]
Riverside[DE]
Equinox [EqnX]
Riverside[DE]
(edited by Me Games Ma.8426)
Immobilize also doesn’t currently affect the defiance bar currently. I’m somewhat of two minds on this condition, though- as it effects only movement, a lot of bosses aren’t punished by it, but it can be exploitative for melee bosses, especially in coordinated, small-group situations like dungeons or fractals.
All on interrupt effects trigger when you interrupt a boss monster that has defiant stacks on it. It just won’t interrupt the mob.
Halting strike triggers the damage, Chaotic Interruption will inflict the conditions and Bountiful Interruption will buff the mesmer. The only thing that does not happen is the interrupt.
In that case, those traits should still trigger when using an interrupt ability on a creature with the new defiance bar.
Immobilize also doesn’t currently affect the defiance bar currently. I’m somewhat of two minds on this condition, though- as it effects only movement, a lot of bosses aren’t punished by it, but it can be exploitative for melee bosses, especially in coordinated, small-group situations like dungeons or fractals.
All on interrupt effects trigger when you interrupt a boss monster that has defiant stacks on it. It just won’t interrupt the mob.
Halting strike triggers the damage, Chaotic Interruption will inflict the conditions and Bountiful Interruption will buff the mesmer. The only thing that does not happen is the interrupt.In that case, those traits should still trigger when using an interrupt ability on a creature with the new defiance bar.
Well, you’ve already set a precedent of certain mob types (like risen aboms) who are resistant/immune to Immobilize.
Though it does bring up an interesting question: Will a CCs effect on a breakbar relative to other CC effects be universal, or could they possibly change depending on the enemy in question?
i.e. might there be monster that has, say, poor balance, and therefore losses more of it’s breakbar to knockback/knockdown effects than other mobs (compared to stun/daze effects) or is a knockback is a knockback is a knockback, and will remove the same amount of breakbar for that duration/distance (relative to other effects) regardless of enemy type?
When I first heard about the defiant change, I also thought soft control was being counted, and I was delighted.
I immediately perceived it as a Buff to things like Chill and Cripple and Immobilize, whose PvE play has largely felt unsatisfactory, due to the AI not really producing much in the way of significant motion on a practical level and/or not providing instances where manipulating motion this way has a demonstrable impact.
It’s true, the effect soft control has on bosses is significantly lesser if not outright irrelevant…so why doesn’t it stand to reason that the breakbar presents an opportunity to improve this? Why is something being currently effective the litmus for inclusion in the system, when the system itself now gets to help determine what ‘being effective’ means by providing a whole new thing to affect?
If wishes were fishes I’d much prefer sweeping game-wide AI improvements that makes these things feel more relevant for their actual intended uses. But really, at this point, even an artificial means to improve my satisfaction level of using these skills is preferable to my mind skipping over soft control options like they’re persona non grata everywhere but Silverwaste.
(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)
I immediately perceived it as a Buff to things like Chill and Cripple and Immobilize, whose PvE play has largely felt unsatisfactory, due to the AI not really producing much in the way of significant motion on a practical level and/or not providing instances where manipulating motion this way demonstrably changes the outcome.
It’s true, the effect soft control has on bosses is significantly lesser if not outright irrelevant…so why doesn’t it stand to reason that the breakbar presents an opportunity to improve this?
one of the reasons is, at least thats what i believe, if you make all of that stuff affect the defiance bar there will be too much chaos.
in wildstar for example, each class has 2-3 interrupts. CC skills are mostly off gcd and instant. with that in mind devs can design mechanics that are very clear to understand and at the same time very complex. they design it with X interrupts needed in X amount of time and players really have to react quickly.
now, think about what would happen if each class in gw2 spams all CC skills, cripple, immobilize, chill….. that would either lead to a “mindlessly spam skills to win” situation or simply lame mechanics instead of "each player in the party has to use these specific skills to remove enough of the defiance bar.
and chill, cripple, immobilize isnt as unsatisfactory as you call it. it might seem it has no real use in pve, but if you solo dungeons and fractals this stuff becomes more and more useful. the more difficult and challenging the encounters in HoT are, the more use you will see.
another reason is probably wvw and pvp.
[qT] Quantify
(edited by NoTrigger.8396)
I acknowledge it might very well be a really difficult thing, game design is effing hard. But if they were talking about it amongst themselves, then there must have been a faction that thought it was in the realm of possibility, or it would’ve been off the table completely.
I get you’re devil’s advocating by providing these examples, and there’s nothing wrong with a fresh perspective. But, does it really seem that unreasonable to want soft cc to feel like a solid choice for many places in the game and at multiple levels of play?
(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)
I get you’re devil’s advocating, and there’s nothing wrong with a fresh perspective. But, does it really seem that unreasonable to want soft cc to feel like a solid choice for many places in the game and at multiple levels of play?
first of all i dont know what “devils advocating” means. and secondly ofc its not unreasonable. but if there are too many skills and effects that can affect the defiance bar it will probably do more harm than good. thats what i was trying to explain.
another point i forgot to mention from the PvE perspective is that the “soft cc” effects are side effects of your dps rotation. now if they affect the defiance bar this will lead to one of 3 following results:
a) rotation isnt fluent anymore because you are forced to save cooldowns, rotation and gameplay isnt as much “fun” anymore. and for a large amount of time we are camping autoattack in our rotations already, even more so in HoT, because we have to save cooldowns of skills like binding blade to interrupt the boss.
b) when the defiance bar is active a large part will be depleted immediately -> interrupting will become a joke.
c) soft cc removes such a little amount of the defiance bar to not oversimplify the mechanics because of the side effects that its not even worth it.
[qT] Quantify
(edited by NoTrigger.8396)
(Providing counter-examples [like ‘soloing dungeons’] to help me see the weaknesses in my argument, which are unconventional but still ultimately true. It has the word Devil, but it’s not a bad thing.)
(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)
The “Devil’s Advocate” position is rather a necessary one for a healthy debate. Not to mention incredibly useful to begin spotting holes in your arguments.
It is also one of the things which is mistaken for “trolling” if you admit to taking that position for the sake of argument.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Immobilize also doesn’t currently affect the defiance bar currently. I’m somewhat of two minds on this condition, though- as it effects only movement, a lot of bosses aren’t punished by it, but it can be exploitative for melee bosses, especially in coordinated, small-group situations like dungeons or fractals.
Exploitative is a pretty strong term. Perma chill achieves basically the same effect because you can backpedal and max melee faster than the boss can catch you. Unless you’re thinking of a new boss we haven’t seen yet, I can’t think of a single boss in dungeons and fractals that is pure melee and isn’t considered a complete joke anyway. (Example – arah p1 ooze.)
guildless hobo who likes to solo – [x]
(edited by rfdarko.4639)
Immobilize also doesn’t currently affect the defiance bar currently. I’m somewhat of two minds on this condition, though- as it effects only movement, a lot of bosses aren’t punished by it, but it can be exploitative for melee bosses, especially in coordinated, small-group situations like dungeons or fractals.
There are many mobs that you pretty much have to immobilize or that taking it away would be very detrimental (mainly in open world where encounters scale). I would just leave it separate from defiance and any mobs that you feel are too abusable.
(edited by That Other Guy.7351)
@Vox
Soft CC’s are incredibly useful and important in high level fractals. Its another case of most players dont realise the benefits of using it so they think it has no value. Because all they see is the dps meta and think theres nothing else to it. Organised groups use it all (hard CC and soft CC) and for good reasons. Maybe new content in HoT will educate players a little better with their uses. Especially if certain break bar mechanics force it.
Well, that certainly a valid area of concern, Spoj.
I’d hate to encourage high level fractals becoming impossibly difficult. But, these Bosses are gaining Breakbar effects in the near future, it might be possible to make sure players still have a fair chance at these encounters through them.
Just to make sure I’m responding to NoTrigger fully;
That’s kind of the great thing about having a Bar as opposed to Stacks.
It acts as a translator between skills and the effect they’re having on the mob, and it can change the message to whatever it wants – whenever it wants.
So you can reward purposeful choices in actions/character building over unintentional ones, by keying anything attached to an autoattack lower than things that have an actual damage opportunity cost to slot or equip.
Again, if it were a totally hopeless concept, I can’t imagine devs would’ve ever seriously entertained the idea internally.
(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)
@Vox
Soft CC’s are incredibly useful and important in high level fractals. Its another case of most players dont realise the benefits of using it so they think it has no value. Because all they see is the dps meta and think theres nothing else to it. Organised groups use it all (hard CC and soft CC) and for good reasons. Maybe new content in HoT will educate players a little better with their uses. Especially if certain break bar mechanics force it.
I’m curious about this use of hard and soft CC in fractals. Can you give some examples ?
I mean… I get that weakness is very important in order not to get 2shot by anything. I also understand the importance of blind fields.
How about cripple and chill ? Where can they be used in an efficient way in this type of content ?
Known as Reegar Else, Linda Else, Xiana Else and Thorgall Breakstone
You can backpeddle and max melee bosses when they are perma crippled/chilled. Its also very helpful if they have 600 range leaps (first arch diviner). And if you immob them you can stand behind them and they wont be able to turn to hit you. Also helps if someone just needs to get away to recover or res in slightly more casual groups. Soft CC on mossman and archdiviner are the best examples. Both very difficult melee fights even for experienced players. So using soft CC will often save your bacon more times than you can count. Chill is also just good to increase the cooldown of attacks so you dont have to dodge big attacks as frequently.
In terms of hard CC its usually to set up deep freeze safe bursts or to freeze to res someone. But for fights like Mai Trin its used to pull her into the electric fields faster.
(edited by spoj.9672)
You can backpeddle and max melee bosses when they are perma crippled/chilled. Its also very helpful if they have 600 range leaps (first arch diviner). And if you immob them you can stand behind them and they wont be able to turn to hit you. Also helps if someone just needs to get away to recover or res in slightly more casual groups. Soft CC on mossman and archdiviner are the best examples. Both very difficult melee fights even for experienced players. So using soft CC will often save your bacon more times than you can count. Chill is also just good to increase the cooldown of attacks so you dont have to dodge big attacks as frequently.
In terms of hard CC its usually to set up deep freeze safe bursts or to freeze to res someone. But for fights like Mai Trin its used to pull her into the electric fields faster.
Ok got it, thanks for taking the time.
Known as Reegar Else, Linda Else, Xiana Else and Thorgall Breakstone
I’m against immobilize being considered a cc. mobs can turn and attack despite being immobilized, and it’s already a cleansable condition.
From what i’ve seen the base of deciding if something is a cc or not is it’s ability to interrupt opponent’s action, and shut down his ability to use skills other then stunbreakers or 0 cast time skills. Immobilize falls flat on all these fronts in pve and barely scraches one in pvp (you gotta be behind them and immobilize doesn’t stop their ground targetted aoe or point black aoe.
thing to remember is, bosses are not being exploited by using CC on them, you are actually using your skills as they are intended to be used. Bosses are being exploited by having poor response to enemies, and simple scripts.
immobolize is built to control how you fight the enemy. if it cant do that, its pretty bad as a skill, AND you are further limiting how interesting the players build is, and enemy encounters can be
thing to remember is, bosses are not being exploited by using CC on them, you are actually using your skills as they are intended to be used. Bosses are being exploited by having poor response to enemies, and simple scripts.
immobolize is built to control how you fight the enemy. if it cant do that, its pretty bad as a skill, AND you are further limiting how interesting the players build is, and enemy encounters can be
This is an excellent point. The solution to a boss being risklessly defeated via control is to either A. accept that as a perfectly valid strategy or B. change the boss in question so it’s complex enough for control to not be an iWin button.
There are plenty of simple mechanics you could add to melee bosses to prevent exploitation, like a “shake it off” type effect that breaks immobilize/chill on a cooldown or a big heal or regen that they cast whenever they spend more than x amount of time without a valid target.
Always better to just make fights a little more rich and responsive rather than rely on magically different mechanics that only apply to bosses. (I realize there’s irony in saying that in this thread- but at least this is one area where that could be minimized.)