‘Elite’ in all 9 professions. I take mediocrity seriously!
There will always be A META.
Will all of the Meta-Messiahs please hurry up and publish the exact builds you are requiring for each profession you’ll allow in your raid party? I’ll need detailed gear lists (weapon, armor, runes, sigils, trinkets) as well as skills to equip and a rotation for pressing my buttons. I’ll put my character together exactly as you require and practice until I am good enough at doing exactly what I’m told to please you. Then I will get the coveted chance to complete a raid in record-setting time. It won’t be ‘playing’ at all; it will be a job. But really, why play when you can work?
No. You won’t complete the raid in record-setting time. Without the “meta” you won’t be able to finish it at all.
So you really believe that only the one perfectly optimal party composition with the right professions running the exact ‘meta’ builds will succeed? I sure won’t be able to figure it out, so please make an elite raid guide soon, preferably before the expansion releases, since you seem to know what it will take already. Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise with the lesser players like me.
‘Elite’ in all 9 professions. I take mediocrity seriously!
There is no raid meta yet, though there will doubtless be some theory-crafting after the one fight is previewed this weekend. Whether whatever meta that does develop will be necessary (as opposed to required by groups) remains to be seen also. It doesn’t take foreknowledge to know that the harder the raids are, the fewer options will be viable.
Will all of the Meta-Messiahs please hurry up and publish the exact builds you are requiring for each profession you’ll allow in your raid party? I’ll need detailed gear lists (weapon, armor, runes, sigils, trinkets) as well as skills to equip and a rotation for pressing my buttons. I’ll put my character together exactly as you require and practice until I am good enough at doing exactly what I’m told to please you. Then I will get the coveted chance to complete a raid in record-setting time. It won’t be ‘playing’ at all; it will be a job. But really, why play when you can work?
No. You won’t complete the raid in record-setting time. Without the “meta” you won’t be able to finish it at all.
It´s nonsense like this that keeps me wondering how mankind was ever able to leave the planet or build a better weapon than the bow. I am pretty sure that a mobile phone could navigate a space shuttle to the moon today or guide a rocket because it has vastly more power than the best computers in the 60s. I imagine Wernher von Braun sitting at NASA headquarters, complaining that his rockets are not meta enough to even lift off.^^
Any undertaking has a low limit, the absolute minimum to beat it you want to achieve it. Reach it, and the loot is yours.
So saying that a strict meta will be necessary to beat it is
a) pure speculation at this point
b) unlikely because Anet has hopefully playtested it over and over again with different setups
It is surely right that the meta will allow it to be done in record time or at it´s best, but claims that it will be impossible without if Anet is not specifically looking for this are plain weird.
And who knows, maybe it is designed as a cakewalk for experienced raiders, and as challenging for casual gamers?
Premise A : PvE is so easy that it can be done by everyone
Premise B : Hardcore players demand hard content
Premise C : Raids are hard by default
Solution A : Make raids hard for casuals, and so so for hardcore players. The first are happy because their content gets harder without being too hard, the second one got much less arrows in their quiver to complain because raids are there, so any complains about them missing are pointless. Good for the longterm health, bad for the top players.
Solution B : Make hard raids for everyone. The casuals will need help or pay their way in, the hardcore players are happy because hard content is hard. Bad for the long term health because of lacking fun for the casual gamers, good for the aquisation of new, hardcore gamer groups.
Solution C : Make hard or softer raids and abandon support for it over time for the next fotm projekt. The one size fits all solution many companies use for the sake of keeping things simple and manageable for them. As long as it is not broken, it is working as intended. Lukewarm for everyone, but maybe enoguh to continue to collect paychecks.
No. You won’t complete the raid in record-setting time. Without the “meta” you won’t be able to finish it at all.
That is pretty unlikely no? Has that been the case with ANY GW2 content?
The guy’s being snarky, but dealing with people who demand a particular build can in fact turn play into work if you let it.
Will all of the Meta-Messiahs please hurry up and publish the exact builds you are requiring for each profession you’ll allow in your raid party? I’ll need detailed gear lists (weapon, armor, runes, sigils, trinkets) as well as skills to equip and a rotation for pressing my buttons. I’ll put my character together exactly as you require and practice until I am good enough at doing exactly what I’m told to please you. Then I will get the coveted chance to complete a raid in record-setting time. It won’t be ‘playing’ at all; it will be a job. But really, why play when you can work?
I don’t get why this is an issue for people. Make your own lfg that say “raid, anyone welcome”, or join one that is already made. The only time there are ever issues is when meta players join non-meta groups or non-meta players join meta groups. As long as everyone plays with like minded individuals, none of it matters.
Will all of the Meta-Messiahs please hurry up and publish the exact builds you are requiring for each profession you’ll allow in your raid party? I’ll need detailed gear lists (weapon, armor, runes, sigils, trinkets) as well as skills to equip and a rotation for pressing my buttons. I’ll put my character together exactly as you require and practice until I am good enough at doing exactly what I’m told to please you. Then I will get the coveted chance to complete a raid in record-setting time. It won’t be ‘playing’ at all; it will be a job. But really, why play when you can work?
I don’t get why this is an issue for people. Make your own lfg that say “raid, anyone welcome”, or join one that is already made. The only time there are ever issues is when meta players join non-meta groups or non-meta players join meta groups. As long as everyone plays with like minded individuals, none of it matters.
Members of one group good-naturedly slagging the other is hardly unheard of though. =P It sounded like satire when I read it anyway.
Will all of the Meta-Messiahs please hurry up and publish the exact builds you are requiring for each profession you’ll allow in your raid party? I’ll need detailed gear lists (weapon, armor, runes, sigils, trinkets) as well as skills to equip and a rotation for pressing my buttons. I’ll put my character together exactly as you require and practice until I am good enough at doing exactly what I’m told to please you. Then I will get the coveted chance to complete a raid in record-setting time. It won’t be ‘playing’ at all; it will be a job. But really, why play when you can work?
I don’t get why this is an issue for people. Make your own lfg that say “raid, anyone welcome”, or join one that is already made. The only time there are ever issues is when meta players join non-meta groups or non-meta players join meta groups. As long as everyone plays with like minded individuals, none of it matters.
Members of one group good-naturedly slagging the other is hardly unheard of though. =P It sounded like satire when I read it anyway.
I also read it as satire. I interpreted it meaning as, “meta players force all of us to not enjoy the game”. And I think that is silly. If someone is forcing you to play in a way you don’t enjoy, simply don’t play with them. It’s not like their is a shortage of meta or non-meta players, both groups have plenty of people to form parties with. When players post an lfg that says “80s, meta, path 123”, they are not trying to force you to play meta, they are purposefully trying to avoid playing with you.
Warriors will run Cleric, Druids Zerker, paired with six burn Guardians running sword&board, and a few Revs who nothing about their class, and guess what the raid will fall.
Who cares if it takes 55 minutes instead of 37.
Angelina is free game again.
Crystal Desert
Crystal Desert
Will all of the Meta-Messiahs please hurry up and publish the exact builds you are requiring for each profession you’ll allow in your raid party? I’ll need detailed gear lists (weapon, armor, runes, sigils, trinkets) as well as skills to equip and a rotation for pressing my buttons. I’ll put my character together exactly as you require and practice until I am good enough at doing exactly what I’m told to please you. Then I will get the coveted chance to complete a raid in record-setting time. It won’t be ‘playing’ at all; it will be a job. But really, why play when you can work?
I don’t get why this is an issue for people. Make your own lfg that say “raid, anyone welcome”, or join one that is already made. The only time there are ever issues is when meta players join non-meta groups or non-meta players join meta groups. As long as everyone plays with like minded individuals, none of it matters.
Members of one group good-naturedly slagging the other is hardly unheard of though. =P It sounded like satire when I read it anyway.
I also read it as satire. I interpreted it meaning as, “meta players force all of us to not enjoy the game”. And I think that is silly. If someone is forcing you to play in a way you don’t enjoy, simply don’t play with them. It’s not like their is a shortage of meta or non-meta players, both groups have plenty of people to form parties with. When players post an lfg that says “80s, meta, path 123”, they are not trying to force you to play meta, they are purposefully trying to avoid playing with you.
Ah, yeah it can be hard to divine the thought process behind text you read on a forum sometimes. You could be right but when I read it I read it as poking fun at the attitudes like
To an elite player and a farmer another player is a resource – an NPC – a bot – something that gets something done
The “if you want to come near me you must play only the way I expect you to play based primarily on what I’ve read on the internet” and “I don’t care about any reasons you are less than perfect such as latency, age, or skill level” expressed by a few in this thread. And yet the other crowd are the “selfish” ones. Which to be fair, is a mind set that’s begging to be satirised.
The inference (or outright stating in some cases) that anyone currently not running zerker (ie. the current meta) is just being selfish despite the also stated myriad other reasons why they might need more survivability built into their gear (ie. latency and skill level mentioned in the first post, off the top of my head others might include gaming time constraints, in-game wealth/storage space making it unfeasible to have separate gear sets for pve [arguably the easiest content in the game currently so why would it need it’s own gear set] and wvw), but as has been stated, “reasons don’t matter to me personally so I’m just going to lump them all together under one easily-disparaged target group” is a hilarious mental disconnect that’s also ripe for satirising.
Never mind the “if other people get upset at being excluded from a group based on that group’s rather shakily proven but generally held opinions then it’s their own issue” argument, which always makes me laugh since it sounds to me like that part from the Simpsons “if you get hit, it’s your own fault”.
(Sorry if it seems like I’m picking on you with the quotes, Harper, you’re just the most to-the-point quotable)
But anyway. I might have gone a bit off topic towards the end.
As I see it, the worst thing that will happen is that the group of people who follow the meta will adapt to a new meta or switch to not following the meta, maybe even becoming more welcoming of alternate play styles mingling with their’s in the process. Neither of these outcomes are the end of the world. =)
Now I’m gonna have to derail again some.
This isn’t a legitimate “meta”. It’s one of the worst misusages of a term in MMO discussion.
It’s not competitive
It’s not required to be successful
It’s a preferred style for optimization.
These things are very different!
(Yes I will man the walls of linguistic purity until the last brick is torn away)
Call it satire, sarcasm., or snark. I plead guilty. My point is: there will be more than 1 way to clear a raid, and only a sociopath sees other players as ‘tools to optimize raid clearing time’. It’s a game. Games are for fun. I’ll have no problem clearing raids with people who have social skills and are not hyper-arrogant control freaks, even if it takes slightly longer.
‘Elite’ in all 9 professions. I take mediocrity seriously!
The solution to all of this is simple, just make sure that you don’t NEED to be meta to pass the content. Allow a broad range of gearing to be plenty good to get you through the content. If you give players multiple options, then you need to make sure that ALL of those options are good enough to get through the content. Don’t test things using ideal builds, test them using Clerics Thieves and Zerker Druids.
I think ideally a lot less of stats would come from gear, and would just become baseline to the character. Want to DPS? Pick the more damaging skills. Want to heal? Pick skills that heal. You shouldn’t have to worry about what stats you have, you should just have whatever stats you need.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
The solution to all of this is simple, just make sure that you don’t NEED to be meta to pass the content. Allow a broad range of gearing to be plenty good to get you through the content. If you give players multiple options, then you need to make sure that ALL of those options are good enough to get through the content. Don’t test things using ideal builds, test them using Clerics Thieves and Zerker Druids.
I think ideally a lot less of stats would come from gear, and would just become baseline to the character. Want to DPS? Pick the more damaging skills. Want to heal? Pick skills that heal. You shouldn’t have to worry about what stats you have, you should just have whatever stats you need.
Nice, because you do not need to be meta to clear content. Never needed to be.
Now I’m gonna have to derail again some.
This isn’t a legitimate “meta”. It’s one of the worst misusages of a term in MMO discussion.
It’s not competitive
It’s not required to be successfulIt’s a preferred style for optimization.
These things are very different!
(Yes I will man the walls of linguistic purity until the last brick is torn away)
The word “meta” does not imply that it has to be competitive or required to be successful. Thanks for manning the walls.
Nice, because you do not need to be meta to clear content. Never needed to be.
Never needed to be, but maybe “need to be now.” If the peak Raiding content will require you to be in ascended gear, then presumably that means that their tuning is tight enough that even if you are in ascended gear, if it’s the non-meta style then you would be as bad off, or worse, than you would be in meta Exotic gear. If they’re tuning to require ascended, then they must also be tuning to require certain metas, it’s not possible to do one without the other, unless it’s through a gimmick like Agony.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Challenging group content…
The expectation is that it will be a challenge to complete…meaning not face roll easy where you can /dance and still complete it wearing a tutu.
Now I’m gonna have to derail again some.
This isn’t a legitimate “meta”. It’s one of the worst misusages of a term in MMO discussion.
It’s not competitive
It’s not required to be successfulIt’s a preferred style for optimization.
These things are very different!
(Yes I will man the walls of linguistic purity until the last brick is torn away)
The word “meta” does not imply that it has to be competitive or required to be successful. Thanks for manning the walls.
Yes it does.
I am in awe of your ability to make a contrary statement while providing nothing to back up your claim.
Ooohhh look, I can do it too! =P
The solution to all of this is simple, just make sure that you don’t NEED to be meta to pass the content. Allow a broad range of gearing to be plenty good to get you through the content. If you give players multiple options, then you need to make sure that ALL of those options are good enough to get through the content. Don’t test things using ideal builds, test them using Clerics Thieves and Zerker Druids.
I think ideally a lot less of stats would come from gear, and would just become baseline to the character. Want to DPS? Pick the more damaging skills. Want to heal? Pick skills that heal. You shouldn’t have to worry about what stats you have, you should just have whatever stats you need.
This is a great idea – by balancing raids against non-meta groups you will certainly get the difficulty rating spot on and Raids will most certainly not turn into Dungeons 2.0.
The problem with what you’re suggesting is that it has already been done – dungeons did this and because every build was viable and could complete it meant that highly efficient builds ( such as full zerker meta) became incredibly effective and gave us wildly fast clear times.
Unless you want Raids to become the equivalent of CoF p1 in a few months I should hope they don’t balance around anything that’s not highly organized meta play.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
The “if you want to come near me you must play only the way I expect you to play based primarily on what I’ve read on the internet” and “I don’t care about any reasons you are less than perfect such as latency, age, or skill level” expressed by a few in this thread. And yet the other crowd are the “selfish” ones. Which to be fair, is a mind set that’s begging to be satirised.
Satire all you want – I am perfectly within my rights as a player to ask for this.
And no – it’s not based “on what I’ve read on the internet primarily” – it’s based on observations made by myself in game. The vast majority of times meta groups I’ve been with have performed MUCH better than non-meta groups I’ve also been in given the same content. Simple as that.
And yes – even if it seems absurd to you if you want to take my right to play the game as I see fit and enjoy it away from me you are being selfish.
I’ve invested a great amount of time and effort into becoming a good player and an asset to others – I’ve learned my class, invested in the right gear, brought the most effective build, invested in a high-end machine to run the game as best as possible and have a very stable and powerful internet connection in order to have the lowest possible latency.
I don’t see it absurd at all that I prefer to play with people that have done the same.
The inference (or outright stating in some cases) that anyone currently not running zerker (ie. the current meta) is just being selfish despite the also stated myriad other reasons why they might need more survivability built into their gear (ie. latency and skill level mentioned in the first post, off the top of my head others might include gaming time constraints, in-game wealth/storage space making it unfeasible to have separate gear sets for pve [arguably the easiest content in the game currently so why would it need it’s own gear set] and wvw), but as has been stated, “reasons don’t matter to me personally so I’m just going to lump them all together under one easily-disparaged target group” is a hilarious mental disconnect that’s also ripe for satirising.
I did not say they are being selfish for not doing those things – I said they are being selfish for not doing those things but demanding I treat them as if they did anyway by taking them along on runs and grouping up with them – which is in a sense them asking for me to be forced into doing something I don’t want to do.
I’m someone who cares about results – I need a standardized teammate that I can rely on – that won’t drop out in the middle of the run, that can dodge on point and deal out damage- that knows the content and what to do – I don’t need reasons why you can’t/ won’t be that ideal teammate.
I have no qualms or problems with you either – if you can’t be that person that’s perfectly fine – we won’t play together and that’ll be that.
Never mind the “if other people get upset at being excluded from a group based on that group’s rather shakily proven but generally held opinions then it’s their own issue” argument, which always makes me laugh since it sounds to me like that part from the Simpsons “if you get hit, it’s your own fault”.
Even if the “zerker meta” exclusion criteria were shaky ( Which they are not – meta groups outperform non-meta groups by a large margin not only in this game but in almost any game ) what you don’t seem to understand is that my criteria of picking and choosing the people I play with don’t have to be explained or scientifically proven and backed up or whatever else – they are my criteria – and I have the right to enforce them if that’s how I enjoy playing the game. It could be as silly as only taking people along that have red dye on their armor – or fuzzy hats – or anything else.
If I end up not finding any people to play with – that’s MY problem. But as far as I’m content with using any criteria I want and haven’t complained about not finding people to play with – there’s really no reason for you to judge how I select and filter those I choose to play with.
As to what will happen – we’ll have to see – I predict a stricter meta with much much more exclusion.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
The problem with what you’re suggesting is that it has already been done – dungeons did this and because every build was viable and could complete it meant that highly efficient builds ( such as full zerker meta) became incredibly effective and gave us wildly fast clear times.
the reason dps builds gave wildly fast clear times is that enemy health bars were the main barrier to progress in dungeons, and when there was a significant threat to players more defensive builds rarely offered a tangible benefits. (hyuge damage spikes, etc.) The dungeons were built to be tough, and even now they still can be. Most fast runs use various means to avoid playing some fights as designed.
the devs are aware of this, which is why you can see in fractals many fights designed specifically so that damage is not the limiting factor in clearing them. Or at least far less so.
It didn’t necessarily lead to more diverse builds though, since it’s not like any amount of armor matters if the Jade Maw stares at you.
(edited by Shoe.5821)
The problem with what you’re suggesting is that it has already been done – dungeons did this and because every build was viable and could complete it meant that highly efficient builds ( such as full zerker meta) became incredibly effective and gave us wildly fast clear times.
Well, that’s something where you either need to put on the brakes or remove them completely.
A. Accept that some builds will be able to complete the content faster, and balance it so that most groups can complete it, but the best groups do complete it faster, have leaderboards, and offer prestige to those who can complete it faster. If there are daily or in this case weekly lockouts, then what does it really matter if it takes the average group an hour to complete the raid but a speedclear meta can do it in 15 minutes? So long as the group knows going in how they intend to do it, that’s fine.
B. Design the content so that even if you’re way overpowered, the content maintains a minimum pacing. Have enemies that spawn at a certain rate no matter how fast you kill them, or that keep spawning infinitely until a pre-set timer runs out, or enemies that scale their own defenses based on the damage they are taking such that highly efficient DPS is not that much more effective than average DPS, there are all sorts of ways to “soft cap” or “hard cap” clear times. The downside to this is that it tends to make the events more boring for people capable of excelling at them, since they are stuck doing “busy work” as hypothetical slower teams “catch up.”
I tend to favor A. It allows the bleeding edge players to be competitive without unduly penalizing those that do not care about that sort of thing.
Unless you want Raids to become the equivalent of CoF p1 in a few months I should hope they don’t balance around anything that’s not highly organized meta play.
Raids are likely to die no matter what, this is just not a raiding game, it’s like putting rainboots on a duck, but the surest way they could ensure that they will die is if they are tuned such that only a very select group of players can participate in them.The only chance raiding has is to reach the broadest possible audience and be fun for as many players as possible.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Satire all you want – I am perfectly within my rights as a player to ask for this.
I shall, thank you for being a good sport about it =)
And no – it’s not based “on what I’ve read on the internet primarily” – it’s based on observations made by myself in game.
That… doesn’t make it based on something more objective, you understand… The attitude I was referring to when I said “based primarily on what has been read on the internet” wasn’t, like, closet noobness or something.
And yes – even if it seems absurd to you if you want to take my right to play the game as I see fit and enjoy it away from me you are being selfish.
The fact that you think it’s about taking something away from you is what I find most fascinating/baffling. If I call you selfish, it’s because when I talk about being inclusive and welcoming for the sake of others, you think only about yourself and how it will affect you. Which I’m fairly sure is a more accurate usage of the word “selfish” than the one you’re using.
I’ve invested a great amount of time and effort into becoming a good player and an asset to others – I’ve learned my class, invested in the right gear, brought the most effective build, invested in a high-end machine to run the game as best as possible and have a very stable and powerful internet connection in order to have the lowest possible latency.
And people who aren’t in a position to be able to do this aren’t worth fraternising with, yes so you’ve said. =P
I have no qualms or problems with you either – if you can’t be that person that’s perfectly fine – we won’t play together and that’ll be that.
I know I amn’t necessarily the “you” you were referring to there but I just wanted to make it clear that I have no qualms or problems with you either.
there’s really no reason for you to judge how I select and filter those I choose to play with.
Hey, I’m perfectly within my rights to judge you based on your stated beliefs and actions. Don’t be so selfish in trying to take that away from me. =P
As to what will happen – we’ll have to see – I predict a stricter meta with much much more exclusion.
And I’m sure you won’t be part of the solution anyway, hehe.
Exclusion isn’t something that the game forces anyone to do, it’s something that people choose to do. It doesn’t matter to me what reasons someone has that makes them think it’s ok to do it. (Do you recognise this statement too? =P )
The problem with what you’re suggesting is that it has already been done – dungeons did this and because every build was viable and could complete it meant that highly efficient builds ( such as full zerker meta) became incredibly effective and gave us wildly fast clear times.
Well, that’s something where you either need to put on the brakes or remove them completely.
A. Accept that some builds will be able to complete the content faster, and balance it so that most groups can complete it, but the best groups do complete it faster, have leaderboards, and offer prestige to those who can complete it faster. If there are daily or in this case weekly lockouts, then what does it really matter if it takes the average group an hour to complete the raid but a speedclear meta can do it in 15 minutes? So long as the group knows going in how they intend to do it, that’s fine.
B. Design the content so that even if you’re way overpowered, the content maintains a minimum pacing. Have enemies that spawn at a certain rate no matter how fast you kill them, or that keep spawning infinitely until a pre-set timer runs out, or enemies that scale their own defenses based on the damage they are taking such that highly efficient DPS is not that much more effective than average DPS, there are all sorts of ways to “soft cap” or “hard cap” clear times. The downside to this is that it tends to make the events more boring for people capable of excelling at them, since they are stuck doing “busy work” as hypothetical slower teams “catch up.”
I tend to favor A. It allows the bleeding edge players to be competitive without unduly penalizing those that do not care about that sort of thing.
Unless you want Raids to become the equivalent of CoF p1 in a few months I should hope they don’t balance around anything that’s not highly organized meta play.
Raids are likely to die no matter what, this is just not a raiding game, it’s like putting rainboots on a duck, but the surest way they could ensure that they will die is if they are tuned such that only a very select group of players can participate in them.The only chance raiding has is to reach the broadest possible audience and be fun for as many players as possible.
But that defeats the purpose of raids – raids by design ( and as Anet has stated) are supposed to be hard and aimed at the top 5-10% of the player base. It’s content that’s supposed to be inaccessible at first – forcing people to tweak and improve their build and skills in order to be able to participate and complete.
The problem is that if you balance them around players that for example haven’t even gone to the trouble of rebinding keys and still click on skill on their screen – you’re going to make them incredibly easy for everyone else.
By default a large portion of the player base should be “not skilled or prepared enough” to raid on release day if raids are going to succeed at being that “long term goal” that people work towards.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
The problem with what you’re suggesting is that it has already been done – dungeons did this and because every build was viable and could complete it meant that highly efficient builds ( such as full zerker meta) became incredibly effective and gave us wildly fast clear times.
the reason dps builds gave wildly fast clear times is that enemy health bars were the main barrier to progress in dungeons, and when there was a significant threat to players more defensive builds rarely offered a tangible benefits. (hyuge damage spikes, etc.) The dungeons were built to be tough, and even now they still can be. Most fast runs use various means to avoid playing some fights as designed.
the devs are aware of this, which is why you can see in fractals many fights designed specifically so that damage is not the limiting factor in clearing them. Or at least far less so.
It didn’t necessarily lead to more diverse builds though, since it’s not like any amount of armor matters if the Jade Maw stares at you.
Defensive builds and gear gives a lot of benefits in dungeons especially if you have no idea how to stay alive. Every friend I’ve brought to the game has had to go through PVT or Knight’s before he could go full zerker and survive.
It does add a significant benefit – just that once you know how to stay alive in GW2’s dungeons it doesn’t matter if you’re wearing PVT, Zerks or are naked – you’ll be fine.
Why ? Because the content is balanced around the majority of players – the slow and inexperienced – the bad and uniformed – so in order for them to complete – players that are really good can have a very easy time.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
The fact that you think it’s about taking something away from you is what I find most fascinating/baffling. If I call you selfish, it’s because when I talk about being inclusive and welcoming for the sake of others, you think only about yourself and how it will affect you. Which I’m fairly sure is a more accurate usage of the word “selfish” than the one you’re using.
So by comparison taking trampling on my choices and ruining my enjoyment of the game for your enjoyment is not selfish.
Yes – non-meta players take something away from me : they ruin my enjoyment of the game, they take time away from me (by making runs take unnecessarily long) and make the experience very tense and un-relaxing ( because I’m tired of having to tell people how and what to do – to advise them and so on – I want to play with people who’ve done the content 1000 times and know it by heart).
We are all allowed to think of ourselves and our enjoyment in the game – what I consider selfish is someone forcing you to play with them – I am not forcing any player to play “meta zerk” builds or join my party – they do so of their own will.
And people who aren’t in a position to be able to do this aren’t worth fraternising with, yes so you’ve said. =P
It’s not that I have something against them – I really don’t – but I’m not an NPC in this game – I’m not there for anyone to party up with me just because they want to.
In this situation I have no reason to party up with them or approach content together.
Exclusion isn’t something that the game forces anyone to do, it’s something that people choose to do. It doesn’t matter to me what reasons someone has that makes them think it’s ok to do it. (Do you recognise this statement too? =P )
Yes – and it’s spot on – people will want Legendary Armor – they’ll want it fast and will bar anyone who isn’t going to be an effective part of that process from their groups.
Hey, I’m perfectly within my rights to judge you based on your stated beliefs and actions. Don’t be so selfish in trying to take that away from me. =P
This is true – but what I meant is that you’re not in a position to call my way of doing things wrong – because there’s no right or wrong way of doing things – there are just different ways of doing things.
The main thing we should take away from this is that people with different mindsets and methods should not be forced together and that people should respect other people’s desire to play the game a certain way.
You can’t force them to play the way you want- the most you can do is not play with them – ultimately we should all just find people that want to play our way.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
The fact that you think it’s about taking something away from you is what I find most fascinating/baffling. If I call you selfish, it’s because when I talk about being inclusive and welcoming for the sake of others, you think only about yourself and how it will affect you. Which I’m fairly sure is a more accurate usage of the word “selfish” than the one you’re using.
So by comparison taking trampling on my choices and ruining my enjoyment of the game for your enjoyment is not selfish.
Yes – non-meta players take something away from me : they ruin my enjoyment of the game, they take time away from me (by making runs take unnecessarily long) and make the experience very tense and un-relaxing ( because I’m tired of having to tell people how and what to do – to advise them and so on – I want to play with people who’ve done the content 1000 times and know it by heart).We are all allowed to think of ourselves and our enjoyment in the game – what I consider selfish is someone forcing you to play with them – I am not forcing any player to play “meta zerk” builds or join my party – they do so of their own will.
And people who aren’t in a position to be able to do this aren’t worth fraternising with, yes so you’ve said. =P
It’s not that I have something against them – I really don’t – but I’m not an NPC in this game – I’m not there for anyone to party up with me just because they want to.
In this situation I have no reason to party up with them or approach content together.Exclusion isn’t something that the game forces anyone to do, it’s something that people choose to do. It doesn’t matter to me what reasons someone has that makes them think it’s ok to do it. (Do you recognise this statement too? =P )
Yes – and it’s spot on – people will want Legendary Armor – they’ll want it fast and will bar anyone who isn’t going to be an effective part of that process from their groups.
Hey, I’m perfectly within my rights to judge you based on your stated beliefs and actions. Don’t be so selfish in trying to take that away from me. =P
This is true – but what I meant is that you’re not in a position to call my way of doing things wrong – because there’s no right or wrong way of doing things – there are just different ways of doing things.
The main thing we should take away from this is that people with different mindsets and methods should not be forced together and that people should respect other people’s desire to play the game a certain way.You can’t force them to play the way you want- the most you can do is not play with them – ultimately we should all just find people that want to play our way.
You are an NPC though, to other “elite players and farmers” anyway.
In a non-meta group you might be treated as a person instead! =P
I’m not calling your way of doing things wrong, there are much less vague and more insightful terms I could use to describe it haha! =P
Ok, I jest (slightly), but yeah, I hope you understand that I’ve mostly just been enjoying setting up contra-arguments almost solely by using your own rhetoric. I’m not trying to force you to do anything either here.
The main thing we should take away from this is that people with different mindsets and methods should not be forced together and that people should respect other people’s desire to play the game a certain way.
You can’t force them to play the way you want- the most you can do is not play with them – ultimately we should all just find people that want to play our way.
This is the core of the entire argument and I just can’t understand why people refuse to accept this. This is literally the entire reason why there has always been all the forum tears about the " zerk meta". This is literally the entire rationale behind ANET’s recent determination to kill berserker geared players…trying to capitulate to the massive forum cries of players who can’t accept this. Trying to force players with opposite mindsets to play together. I believe its the reason they abandoned dungeons…not wanting to deal with these forum cries regarding reworking dungeons for this same capitulation. I’m honestly surprised they are implementing raids (challenging group content) in light of this. I guess the 2/3 trinity is their caveat in that respect though…another obvious attempt to force these opposite mindsets together…however much of a bad idea that will be. ANET just needs to stop fighting against human nature here. There is a polarization that they are not going to overcome here….those that want to be “safe” and those that want to play on the edge.
The main thing we should take away from this is that people with different mindsets and methods should not be forced together and that people should respect other people’s desire to play the game a certain way.
You can’t force them to play the way you want- the most you can do is not play with them – ultimately we should all just find people that want to play our way.
This is the core of the entire argument and I just can’t understand why people refuse to accept this. This is literally the entire reason why there has always been all the forum tears about the " zerk meta". This is literally the entire rationale behind ANET’s recent determination to kill berserker geared players…trying to capitulate to the massive forum cries of players who can’t accept this. Trying to force players with opposite mindsets to play together. I believe its the reason they abandoned dungeons…not wanting to deal with these forum cries regarding reworking dungeons for this same capitulation. I’m honestly surprised they are implementing raids (challenging group content) in light of this. I guess the 2/3 trinity is their caveat in that respect though…another obvious attempt to force these opposite mindsets together…however much of a bad idea that will be. ANET just needs to stop fighting against human nature here. There is a polarization that they are not going to overcome here….those that want to be “safe” and those that want to play on the edge.
where prioritising optimisation (meta) is “being safe” since it’s the most likely to yield a known return from the least amount of effort investment, and playing with a more diverse player population is playing “on the edge” since the latter is more outside your control, right?
I’m not as concerned about the existence of this or that meta (don’t lie to yourselves – there is always going to be a most optimal way to do something), but the fact that the meta, particularly in this game, seems to attract the most self-important kittens, and seems only to serve the purpose of stroking their egos over how much better they are than the rest of the plebs that they unfortunately need to share the game with. Eventually showing around how leet they are and how everybody should play their way, or be denoted as a casual/wannabe/tryhard/scrub/choose your own derogatory term, that is thrown so much around this forums (because obviously imagining that somebody is a good player and decides to not aim for optimizing gold per hour ingame is above mental capabilities of some people).The glass cannon builds are not a problem, vocal people with these attitudes are the real problem.
Check the dungeon forums to see how condescending the TOP LEET PLAYERS are towards anyone who doesn’t agree with them; check out snarky remarks towards the developers. Or no… don’t look. Shattering the image of helpful tolerant community is not what the game needs now.
I might get infracted for this post, but I don’t care. At least I still got a guild to run content with.
I don’t think gear is the argument here, it’s the tone used against those who play different than you.
I have seen plenty of PUGs in full ascended zerker do everything wrong. It’s still a skill based game. Still takes chemistry and coordination no matter your stats.
If I ever have the unfortunate experience of raiding with someone who asks what gear I’m running. I will be raiding naked while running backwards.
Angelina is free game again.
Crystal Desert
Crystal Desert
(edited by DresdenAllblack.1249)
But that defeats the purpose of raids – raids by design ( and as Anet has stated) are supposed to be hard and aimed at the top 5-10% of the player base. It’s content that’s supposed to be inaccessible at first – forcing people to tweak and improve their build and skills in order to be able to participate and complete.
Then raids are something which should not exist in GW2.
Completion of the content should be accessible to all players, mastery of it should take skill. You should be able to complete these raids with whatever party you bring in (within reason), the “meta” builds should be about clearing them in minimal time for the added fun and prestige of it.
Yes – non-meta players take something away from me : they ruin my enjoyment of the game, they take time away from me (by making runs take unnecessarily long) and make the experience very tense and un-relaxing ( because I’m tired of having to tell people how and what to do – to advise them and so on – I want to play with people who’ve done the content 1000 times and know it by heart).
So you’re upset because non-meta players make the content more challenging to you, and you dislike challenge. Hmmm. . .
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Now I’m gonna have to derail again some.
This isn’t a legitimate “meta”. It’s one of the worst misusages of a term in MMO discussion.
It’s not competitive
It’s not required to be successfulIt’s a preferred style for optimization.
These things are very different!
(Yes I will man the walls of linguistic purity until the last brick is torn away)
The word “meta” does not imply that it has to be competitive or required to be successful. Thanks for manning the walls.
Well no. “Meta” in this context comes from PvP meta, and comparative metas in other games (fighting games, card games etc).
The ‘meta’ in the sense that’s used here are the elements beyond your own playstyle that you need to be aware of to be successful.
in Pvp, the meta is about what classes you expect to fight and whether you can mitigate/beat them.
If you’re playing Netrunner, the meta includes things like “How am I going to deal with a Tag ’n Bag deck?”
In Pve there’s no meta because nothing is required – the metagame, in it’s purest sense, is insignificant.
We have player preferences – and we have players who don’t fully understand the concept applying it inappropriately.
(If I wanna get all tin-hat about this, I suspect it’s a validation issue)
So you really believe that only the one perfectly optimal party composition with the right professions running the exact ‘meta’ builds will succeed? I sure won’t be able to figure it out, so please make an elite raid guide soon, preferably before the expansion releases, since you seem to know what it will take already. Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise with the lesser players like me.
No. That’s not what I meant.
Will all of the Meta-Messiahs please hurry up and publish the exact builds you are requiring for each profession you’ll allow in your raid party? I’ll need detailed gear lists (weapon, armor, runes, sigils, trinkets) as well as skills to equip and a rotation for pressing my buttons. I’ll put my character together exactly as you require and practice until I am good enough at doing exactly what I’m told to please you. Then I will get the coveted chance to complete a raid in record-setting time. It won’t be ‘playing’ at all; it will be a job. But really, why play when you can work?
No. You won’t complete the raid in record-setting time. Without the “meta” you won’t be able to finish it at all.
It´s nonsense like this that keeps me wondering how mankind was ever able to leave the planet or build a better weapon than the bow. I am pretty sure that a mobile phone could navigate a space shuttle to the moon today or guide a rocket because it has vastly more power than the best computers in the 60s. I imagine Wernher von Braun sitting at NASA headquarters, complaining that his rockets are not meta enough to even lift off.^^
Any undertaking has a low limit, the absolute minimum to beat it you want to achieve it. Reach it, and the loot is yours.
So saying that a strict meta will be necessary to beat it is
a) pure speculation at this point
b) unlikely because Anet has hopefully playtested it over and over again with different setups
It is surely right that the meta will allow it to be done in record time or at it´s best, but claims that it will be impossible without if Anet is not specifically looking for this are plain weird.
“Nonsense”. Have you ever thought about a meta that isn’t so strict?
The current dungeon meta (zerk meta) is about saving time, the new raid meta will be about completing the raid.
There will of course be a pro raid meta at some point which focuses on the time. However the most IMPORANT for casuals will be COMPLETING the raid. Thus MOST players will be using the casual raid meta.
Remember that raid-loot will be on a weekly lock-out and the devs said it will be really hard to complete. Do you really think casuals will try to go for the best time? REALLY? They won’t CARE if it takes 40 or 60 minutes as long as they are able to even FINISH it. Unlike dungeons that you farm as fast as possible since it’s easy as f***.
There will problably be different kind of ways to complete the content (multiple casual metas = “the not so strict casual meta”). And casuals will use the one that is available to them depending on their professions and equipment they have or maybe even create a mix of them.
Also it’s not really the meta that will be more strict it’s the CONTENT that is more strict!
/Edit: I replaced “pub” with “casual”. That’s a better wording.
(edited by Neox.3497)
But that defeats the purpose of raids – raids by design ( and as Anet has stated) are supposed to be hard and aimed at the top 5-10% of the player base. It’s content that’s supposed to be inaccessible at first – forcing people to tweak and improve their build and skills in order to be able to participate and complete.
Then raids are something which should not exist in GW2.
Completion of the content should be accessible to all players, mastery of it should take skill. You should be able to complete these raids with whatever party you bring in (within reason), the “meta” builds should be about clearing them in minimal time for the added fun and prestige of it.
Anet seem to disagree.
Raids are supposed to be hard. Maybe even to hard for casual and normal players (if arenanet keep their word).
You wishing for them to be something else will not change their current design and idea. Maybe arenanet will nerf raids down the line, or make them more casual accessible. In that case though, we would see the “zerker meta” return and people would again be up in arms about it.
Can’t have it both ways. Either challenging content, or speed clearable content due to lack of difficulty.
Anet seem to disagree.
Raids are supposed to be hard. Maybe even to hard for casual and normal players (if arenanet keep their word).
You wishing for them to be something else will not change their current design and idea. Maybe arenanet will nerf raids down the line, or make them more casual accessible. In that case though, we would see the “zerker meta” return and people would again be up in arms about it.
Can’t have it both ways. Either challenging content, or speed clearable content due to lack of difficulty.
Yes, the latter. It should be “clearable” easily enough, but speed-clearing should take skill, just as any idiot can complete a circuit on a race track, but only the very best can complete it with peak times.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Call it satire, sarcasm., or snark. I plead guilty. My point is: there will be more than 1 way to clear a raid, and only a sociopath sees other players as ‘tools to optimize raid clearing time’. It’s a game. Games are for fun. I’ll have no problem clearing raids with people who have social skills and are not hyper-arrogant control freaks, even if it takes slightly longer.
I lol’d a bit. This is exactly how I think of it as well.
Social skills, good time, can laugh and enjoy took an hour or more > cleared in 20 minutes.
This whole meta thing is silly. I’m gunna play MY main MY way because its MY time.
And people can say “just look for like-minded groups then”
and I say I try. I label my group “Casual, any can join” and I get impatient meta users who start barking orders and calling people names.
When are we gunna remember this is a game and it can be chill and fun?
Anet seem to disagree.
Raids are supposed to be hard. Maybe even to hard for casual and normal players (if arenanet keep their word).
You wishing for them to be something else will not change their current design and idea. Maybe arenanet will nerf raids down the line, or make them more casual accessible. In that case though, we would see the “zerker meta” return and people would again be up in arms about it.
Can’t have it both ways. Either challenging content, or speed clearable content due to lack of difficulty.
Yes, the latter. It should be “clearable” easily enough, but speed-clearing should take skill, just as any idiot can complete a circuit on a race track, but only the very best can complete it with peak times.
Raids are on 1 week lockout times, what benefit is there to “speed clearing” them?
That’s wishful thinking.
Anet seem to disagree.
Raids are supposed to be hard. Maybe even to hard for casual and normal players (if arenanet keep their word).
You wishing for them to be something else will not change their current design and idea. Maybe arenanet will nerf raids down the line, or make them more casual accessible. In that case though, we would see the “zerker meta” return and people would again be up in arms about it.
Can’t have it both ways. Either challenging content, or speed clearable content due to lack of difficulty.
Yes, the latter. It should be “clearable” easily enough, but speed-clearing should take skill, just as any idiot can complete a circuit on a race track, but only the very best can complete it with peak times.
Raids are on 1 week lockout times, what benefit is there to “speed clearing” them?
That’s wishful thinking.
That’s pretty much why I think we will see a “soft meta” for casuals just to clear the content.
Also in general the one thing I think might be bad is the balance of the professions and their roles. I can imagine that certain raids will be much easier with the perfect “profession” composition. But that isn’t a flaw of the raid, it’s simply the balance of the professions that is bad.
“Nonsense”. Have you ever thought about a meta that isn’t so strict?
The current dungeon meta (zerk meta) is about saving time, the new raid meta will be about completing the raid.
There will of course be a pro raid meta at some point which focuses on the time. However the most IMPORANT for casuals will be COMPLETING the raid. Thus MOST players will be using the casual raid meta.
Remember that raid-loot will be on a weekly lock-out and the devs said it will be really hard to complete. Do you really think casuals will try to go for the best time? REALLY? They won’t CARE if it takes 40 or 60 minutes as long as they are able to even FINISH it. Unlike dungeons that you farm as fast as possible since it’s easy as f***.
There will problably be different kind of ways to complete the content (multiple casual metas = “the not so strict casual meta”). And casuals will use the one that is available to them depending on their professions and equipment they have or maybe even create a mix of them.
Also it’s not really the meta that will be more strict it’s the CONTENT that is more strict!
/Edit: I replaced “pub” with “casual”. That’s a better wording.
I put the word strict into it because I kind of was expecting that someone would come out and defend the idea that you can´t complete it if you don´t field class X that can do Y in rolle Z instead of class A that can do B in rolle Z with inferior but still comparable and sufficient results. This was, is, and always will be nonsense. To stay with my example, you can travel to space by rocket, shuttle or capsule right now. One method is vastly superior to the other two, but that does in no way mean that it is impossible to lift off if you don´t have a shuttle. If the needed % to make it is 85%, and you break that barrier with 85%, you made it as good as the guys who broke it with 99%. Even better if you are looking for skill and determination alone.
I agree with you that it will probably be impossible to complete a raid with 10 nomad geared guardians if people don´t work in shifts with them. Groups like this are unable to break the lowest barrier if they don´t stack any available circumstances in their favor.
I also agree that people have to fill roles to defeat a given mechanism.
In Pve there’s no meta because nothing is required – the metagame, in it’s purest sense, is insignificant.
imo, its more like:
we don’t expect to need anything other than zerkers in pve encounters, zerkers are fastest, so everyone should be zerker.
the fundamental problem is not the players, it’s the encounters…
Now I’m gonna have to derail again some.
This isn’t a legitimate “meta”. It’s one of the worst misusages of a term in MMO discussion.
It’s not competitive
It’s not required to be successfulIt’s a preferred style for optimization.
These things are very different!
(Yes I will man the walls of linguistic purity until the last brick is torn away)
See also: Viability
Cleric mace/axe warrior is viable for 5-man dungeons.
Raids are on 1 week lockout times, what benefit is there to “speed clearing” them?
That’s wishful thinking.
Challenge and prestige. The goal would be to complete it as fast as possible to get the highest times on the leaderboards. I thought raiders liked prestige.
That’s how I believe these things should work, if you tune so that only the best can complete it, that means most people won’t be able to complete it, which means most players will be sad, and that’s no way to run a game. So instead you set the base goal, the “necessary” goal such that most people can complete it, and then set a “stretch goal” that is much more challenging, such as making it onto the top of the leaderboards.
The stretch goals should be all about prestige, not practical reward.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
In Pve there’s no meta because nothing is required – the metagame, in it’s purest sense, is insignificant.
imo, its more like:
we don’t expect to need anything other than zerkers in pve encounters, zerkers are fastest, so everyone should be zerker.
the fundamental problem is not the players, it’s the encounters…
Depends on the POV. In some ways the insistence on efficiency and the assumption that the efficiency builds are required are also problematic.
Beta > Meta
I believe we all can agree on that right?
But that defeats the purpose of raids – raids by design ( and as Anet has stated) are supposed to be hard and aimed at the top 5-10% of the player base. It’s content that’s supposed to be inaccessible at first – forcing people to tweak and improve their build and skills in order to be able to participate and complete.
Then raids are something which should not exist in GW2.
Completion of the content should be accessible to all players, mastery of it should take skill. You should be able to complete these raids with whatever party you bring in (within reason), the “meta” builds should be about clearing them in minimal time for the added fun and prestige of it.
Yes – non-meta players take something away from me : they ruin my enjoyment of the game, they take time away from me (by making runs take unnecessarily long) and make the experience very tense and un-relaxing ( because I’m tired of having to tell people how and what to do – to advise them and so on – I want to play with people who’ve done the content 1000 times and know it by heart).
So you’re upset because non-meta players make the content more challenging to you, and you dislike challenge. Hmmm. . .
Regardless of your opinion on what should or should not be in GW2 – Raids will be a part of GW2 from now on – so they might as well do what the developers intended for them to do.
I have quite a list of things that “should not be in GW2” but I can’t exactly change the game can I? Accept and move on – really only thing you can do.
Completion of the content should be accessible to all players, mastery of it should take skill. You should be able to complete these raids with whatever party you bring in (within reason), the “meta” builds should be about clearing them in minimal time for the added fun and prestige of it.
You have described dungeons perfectly which is what we have today. They don’t want this anymore and I can understand why.
A lot of friends I’ve tried to convince to come in and play GW2 are put off by the idea of “no difficult end-game”. The kind of end-game you have to be very high-end, skilled and knowledgeable to be able to complete.
So you’re upset because non-meta players make the content more challenging to you, and you dislike challenge. Hmmm. . .
You’re making things up.
It’s not that they are making the content more challenging – the content remains as it was – it is that they are wasting my time. Also they are ruining the smoothness and relaxing parts of the run with their lack of knowing when and what to do, aggroing unnecessary things and generally creating bad experience as far as I’m concerned.
If I play with only one hand that doesn’t make the content more challenging – it’s me playing with a handicap. And I dislike that.
And even if you were right and through some magical means they could make the content more challenging – when did I say I wanted more challenge? – I only said I wanted more rewards and to get them faster.
If I want a challenge I’ll go to PvP – and play against the only opponent worth engaging – the one that you can’t cheese or find out the pattern for.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Raids are on 1 week lockout times, what benefit is there to “speed clearing” them?
That’s wishful thinking.
Challenge and prestige. The goal would be to complete it as fast as possible to get the highest times on the leaderboards. I thought raiders liked prestige.
That’s how I believe these things should work, if you tune so that only the best can complete it, that means most people won’t be able to complete it, which means most players will be sad, and that’s no way to run a game. So instead you set the base goal, the “necessary” goal such that most people can complete it, and then set a “stretch goal” that is much more challenging, such as making it onto the top of the leaderboards.
The stretch goals should be all about prestige, not practical reward.
Very few people care about numbers or names on a list – most care about gold, items and cosmetic benefits. You can’t motivate people with a list – very few of them will care about it.
Also – you can’t make content both easy and hard – easy to get done but difficult to speed clear. Because if the content is easy enough to begin with simply doing those things faster will clear it faster.
The fact that more players will be sad is true – but it should motivate them to improve – since all games should have you constantly striving for something – and ideally through that strife and struggle should come self-improvement as a player.
For content to have a significant lifespan and staying power in an MMO you have to make it repeatable – and people won’t repeat content and raids for the sake of “prestige” – they will do it once and be content with being able to get a really fast run and then won’t care about it – 1,2,3,4 seconds do not matter that much to people.
What matters are practical rewards something you can get for yourself – so for that
reason these real, tangible rewards are the factor that will motivate people to do the content over and over and over again.
Ask yourself this – if the 1 – 3 gold reward at the end of each dungeon got removed – how many people would still run dungeons?
What if you also remove tokens and skins? How many people would still run dungeons?
It’s the practical rewards that keep people playing.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Very few people care about numbers or names on a list – most care about gold, items and cosmetic benefits. You can’t motivate people with a list – very few of them will care about it.
Clearly you’ve never worked in Hollywood
Very few people care about numbers or names on a list – most care about gold, items and cosmetic benefits. You can’t motivate people with a list – very few of them will care about it.
Clearly you’ve never worked in Hollywood
And this relates to video games and behaviour in video games how?