Guild Wars 2

During the recent PoI, when talking about map design, it was said (see notes here, courtesy of Dulfy): “In Queensdale for example only half the events were Queensdale themed (humans vs centaurs). Our new maps have events themed with the map more”.

Yeah… That’s not a good thing.

Enemies in the same army (the centaur army, the Risen army, the Inquest army, etc) usually have similar mechanics and look similar, too. Fighting a bunch of them soon becomes repetitive if that’s all you do.

One of the reasons why Queensdale is one of the best maps in the game is exactly due to the variety within it – you are not just fighting centaurs over and over. You have centaurs here, bandits there, wild creatures on that corner, domestic disputes to settle on that house, and so on. Not only this makes gameplay more diverse (you are fighting different enemies all the time, instead of a single enemy type everywhere), but it also gives the developer freedom to make more diverse and tonally different events.

This changes as the game goes on, and we have maps in which basically all the events are themed with the map – like Orr. Where we fight basically the same few enemies in the entire map.

Now, I have never seen someone saying, “You know, I wish the Risen were part of more of the events we have in Orr”. What I have seen are complaints about how Orr is repetitive and lacks diversity within its enemies and events.

It concerns and worries me to see that ArenaNet (still!) doesn’t grasp this aspect. Saying that they think Queensdale would have been better if it had more “human vs centaurs” and less of all the different things it has is very bad. It hints that the expansion maps will consist of fights against the Mordrem over and over, with little to no variety.

In other words, the expansion will be a lot like Orr. Instead of being as great as Queensdale.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

As a big fan of Nochtli myself I’m here to tell you that there’s still going to be plenty of unique and unexpected things happening in the jungle. I think Steve’s point was simply to illuminate the premise that we’d like to build on our epic map stories with events wherever possible. That doesn’t mean crazy hylek won’t play a role in say, surviving in the jungle.

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Hylgeriak.8250:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

As a big fan of Nochtli myself I’m here to tell you that there’s still going to be plenty of unique and unexpected things happening in the jungle. I think Steve’s point was simply to illuminate the premise that we’d like to build on our epic map stories with events wherever possible. That doesn’t mean crazy hylek won’t play a role in say, surviving in the jungle.

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The map Nochtli is on – Dry Top, is one of the monofocused ones. It makes it way more boring than old maps. OP’s concerns are quite valid.

What has Nochtli to do with any of Mordremoth’ minions?

Astralporing.1957:

Hylgeriak.8250:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

As a big fan of Nochtli myself I’m here to tell you that there’s still going to be plenty of unique and unexpected things happening in the jungle. I think Steve’s point was simply to illuminate the premise that we’d like to build on our epic map stories with events wherever possible. That doesn’t mean crazy hylek won’t play a role in say, surviving in the jungle.

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The map Nochtli is on – Dry Top, is one of the monofocused ones. It makes it way more boring than old maps. OP’s concerns are quite valid.

The quoted Dev means that while the zones will be focused on particular mob types that doesn’t mean there won’t be different mob types and encounters in those zones…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/feedback-event-design-focus/first#post4773083 Same topic already exists.

Astralporing.1957:

Hylgeriak.8250:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

As a big fan of Nochtli myself I’m here to tell you that there’s still going to be plenty of unique and unexpected things happening in the jungle. I think Steve’s point was simply to illuminate the premise that we’d like to build on our epic map stories with events wherever possible. That doesn’t mean crazy hylek won’t play a role in say, surviving in the jungle.

\closed

The map Nochtli is on – Dry Top, is one of the monofocused ones. It makes it way more boring than old maps. OP’s concerns are quite valid.

It might be boring to you but not to everyone. Silverwastes doesn’t have many events that aren’t directly related to the forts/mordem threat and I find the place enjoyable.

Astralporing.1957:

The map Nochtli is on – Dry Top, is one of the monofocused ones. It makes it way more boring than old maps. OP’s concerns are quite valid.

Say what? Inquest, skritt, critters of various sorts from the meth moa to the beetles to the rare beasts, elementals, and mordrem all have a handful of events each. Some events, such as Colocal Queen, require zerging while many, such as Basket, require smaller groups and some strategy for best results. I see quite a bit of variety there. Which of these do you consider the monofocus? I sure can’t see it.

And the fact that many events are more harmed then helped by zerging them is a big change from most maps. (Though problematic when new players show up wanting to know where the train is and trying the same mindless tactics that work everywhere else but cause event failures and blown bonuses in Dry Top.)

As for Queensdale, it makes sense to me that a starter zone — the training ground for new players — should expose the player to the greatest possible variety of encounters.

Test.8734:

This changes as the game goes on, and we have maps in which basically all the events are themed with the map – like Orr. Where we fight basically the same few enemies in the entire map.

Now, I have never seen someone saying, “You know, I wish the Risen were part of more of the events we have in Orr”. What I have seen are complaints about how Orr is repetitive and lacks diversity within its enemies and events.

In other words, the expansion will be a lot like Orr. Instead of being as great as Queensdale.

Can’t say I’m surprised, given the way the expansion feels and reads rushed, but I’ll just leave it at that.

I don’t see why an inquest group on engineers would fight the same as say elementalists that summon elemental. And events are always big things. Just because you’re fighting skritt doesn’t mean you’re doing the same thing. You could be defending a point, or pillaging loot, or fighting some mutated super skritt.

Is it just me or…. are we playing the same game ?

I mean, what’s the difference between the regular inquest grunt, the regular centaur grunt and the regular bandit grunt ?

AFAIK they are all monsters that attack at melee range and have some sort of stun/knockdown attack. To me it’s just the same sort of meatshield that is dealt with the same way. The only difference being the outside appearance.

In my eyes, the mordrems have far more variety than any of the other mobs, save for the scralet armies.

OP concerns are exagerrated.

I don’t know you two are arguing when Anet said that it was a poor statement and the new areas will indeed have variety.

I personally like variety too. Those small details here and there are the ones that make the MMO experience unique and awesome.

I think the problem isn’t the variety of enemies but rather the existence of stories which can stand on it’s own, without the big theme: war.

In queensdale you found environments which have little to do with the war between humanity and Centaurs. You hunt demons, help woodcutters versus a queen-bee and skritt invasion.

Anthony Ordon confirmed that he loves events like Nochtli himself, events which aren’t focussed around fighting the big bad guy.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I think the problem isn’t the variety of enemies but rather the existence of stories which can stand on it’s own, without the big theme: war.

And do you not have exactly this kind of variety in Dry Top? There are only about three events (not counting the s2 story instances there) focused on the mordrem efforts to push east into Brisban Wildlands and beyond. Other events are focused on the Inquest trying to take advantage of the zephyrites while they’re down. Still other events are focused on the skritt being a constant annoyance to everyone, regardless of affiliation. And then there are the events focused on the hazards of the environment — dust mites, beetles, colocals, devourers, etc. — and their impacts on the zephyrites, Priory researchers, and centaurs. It looks to me like there are several stories being told here, only one of which directly involves the war against Mordremoth and its minions.

I’ve no problem with DryTop, Brett. Quite the contrary, I enjoy the variety of Drytop much more than the new map Silverwastes. What makes me enjoy Silverwastes is the ingenius implementation of the jumping puzzle, the meta-event design and the pacman-rewardzone. I just don’t feel very entertained by the stories happening there.

Not sure why more towards the map story is a bad thing per say.
What I didn’t like to hear is

“We found map wide objectives working really well so all the new maps will have this.”

That looks like making every map too uniform. I mean, one big objective per map sounds really like there’s little side tracking and makes the map more mission focussed. While for one map this makes sense, for all the maps? I dunno. I always like to see all the little things of life going on in each map. ANd less super focussed on the “big picture”.

Though I assume there will be some things that are stand alone, I hope they don’t overdo it.

BrettM.9062:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I think the problem isn’t the variety of enemies but rather the existence of stories which can stand on it’s own, without the big theme: war.

And do you not have exactly this kind of variety in Dry Top?

Not. There are no standalone events/separate event chains that would not be part of the zonewide metaevent (tiers and sandstorm). They repeat at the same sequence every zone “reset”, instead of making the refreshingly chaotic dynamic conglomerate of events the old zones have. It changes the whole zone from a living place into nothing more than a grind sandbox. In that regard Silverwastes is actually a bit better (a bit, because there’s still the zonewide meta everything is subject to, but at least it’s slightly more alive). Of course, SW is completely monofocused thematically, which is also bad.

I don’t know why… but these new maps and mobs DO make me think of how frustrating a time I had when I was in Orr. I get the impression That we wont be able to walk 10 feet without bumping into a crowd of Mobs that use CCs every half-second and chase you for 500 miles before disengaging. Only instead of Undead, they will be Plant monsters.

SenorMoody.5908:

I don’t know why… but these new maps and mobs DO make me think of how frustrating a time I had when I was in Orr. I get the impression That we wont be able to walk 10 feet without bumping into a crowd of Mobs that use CCs every half-second and chase you for 500 miles before disengaging. Only instead of Undead, they will be Plant monsters.

Agreed.

People seem to forget how tiresome undead became after completing the Personal Story and 3 maps consisting of only undead.

Orr is still a bit of a nightmare just to walk across. Not as kittenouthsun Cove.

There will be dinosaur.

Personally I didn’t have any problems with Orr. It rose from the sea, I only found it logical that there was nothing else but undead.

They could’ve been a bit more creative with what kinds of undead were walking around. Giving it more background and purpose. I felt that with so much potential lore in those regions they only made it very abstract. The buildings look really strange and I can’t imagine any of those in their original state. Which just makes the whole area look like one big blob of undead as opposed to something more pieced together.

Dedlaw.9130:

SenorMoody.5908:

I don’t know why… but these new maps and mobs DO make me think of how frustrating a time I had when I was in Orr. I get the impression That we wont be able to walk 10 feet without bumping into a crowd of Mobs that use CCs every half-second and chase you for 500 miles before disengaging. Only instead of Undead, they will be Plant monsters.

Agreed.

People seem to forget how tiresome undead became after completing the Personal Story and 3 maps consisting of only undead.

Orr was raised from the depths when Zaitan awoke. What exactly did you expect to be there? Of course it was all undead. That’s because Zaitan corrupted every available corpse in those areas. Personally, I really liked the feel of the place. It felt destroyed, lifeless and dangerous. Exactly how it was supposed to feel. I hope the heart of Maguuma has a theme that fits the situation too.

It will be overrun and overgrown with mordrem and vines. But it will also have the inquest investigating the dragon, and creatures that are natural to the area that are managing to survive. And don’t forget this is a war against the dragons, and we are right in the heart of Mordremoth’s home territory. It should be challenging to get from one side of the map to the other. That is the whole point. It is supposed to feel dangerous, overgrown, and swarming with enemies. We are supposed to be struggling, not having a light hearted adventure with a few friends.

HoT is going to be a level 80 region with lots of challenging content, themed around the infestation and corruption of the elder dragon Mordremoth. It should feel dense, humid and packed with all sorts of life that wants to eat you at every turn. Personally, if I can freely walk from one side of a HoT zone to the other, without even a slight struggle, I will be very disappointed. And if the enemies we face are not 90% or more mordrem, I will feel disappointed in Mordremoth for allowing lesser beings to survive uncorrupted so close to its home.

Rin.1046:

Dedlaw.9130:

SenorMoody.5908:

I don’t know why… but these new maps and mobs DO make me think of how frustrating a time I had when I was in Orr. I get the impression That we wont be able to walk 10 feet without bumping into a crowd of Mobs that use CCs every half-second and chase you for 500 miles before disengaging. Only instead of Undead, they will be Plant monsters.

Agreed.

People seem to forget how tiresome undead became after completing the Personal Story and 3 maps consisting of only undead.

Orr was raised from the depths when Zaitan awoke. What exactly did you expect to be there? Of course it was all undead. That’s because Zaitan corrupted every available corpse in those areas.

I understand why there was undead. That doesn’t change that killing wave after wave after wave of undead started getting old fast. I’m hoping they don’t make the same mistake and at least add some variety in the expansion

Astralporing.1957:

Not. There are no standalone events/separate event chains that would not be part of the zonewide metaevent (tiers and sandstorm). They repeat at the same sequence every zone “reset”, instead of making the refreshingly chaotic dynamic conglomerate of events the old zones have. It changes the whole zone from a living place into nothing more than a grind sandbox.

Ah, I see where you’re coming from now, and I have to agree that the metaevent does take something away from the map. For people like us, anyway. Unfortunately, the playerbase seems to prefer predictability for the most part, which is why the World Bosses are now on timers instead of being the culmination of dynamic chains and why players constantly arrive in Orr expecting temple bosses to be just as predictable.

OTOH, one can mitigate the grind to some extent by simply switching to different areas of the map now and then. Instead of standing around waiting for the race, go help the shaman and get the mordrem away from the vine bridges, or go whack on the beetles and escort Rustbucket.

But it would be better if there were actual event chains and alternative outcomes instead of all the one-off events to be completed checklist style. If Repair Station is undefended because Rustbucket didn’t make it, that should result in something different happening. Otherwise the escort is pointless because neither success nor failure has any consequences other than the effect on favor.

Yet, the one actual event chain there is almost never done. Apparently players find it too much trouble to do the rescue in the abandoned mine. On the rare occasions when it is done, they find it too much trouble to take on the champ that spawns as a result. The vote is in, and players have chosen the predictable over the variable. Who are we to say that ANet should not respond to that in their design of the HoT maps and events?

BrettM.9062:

The vote is in, and players have chosen the predictable over the variable. Who are we to say that ANet should not respond to that in their design of the HoT maps and events?

We are also players? :/

Dedlaw.9130:

I understand why there was undead. That doesn’t change that killing wave after wave after wave of undead started getting old fast. I’m hoping they don’t make the same mistake and at least add some variety in the expansion

I am sure the multi-stage events, such as in Silverwastes, and the day-night cycle will make events in the new region more fun and engaging. Plus, with the addition of the adventures I do not think content in HoT will get stale too quickly. But we will not know this until we see it.

It seems clear that Anet wants to add more activities and content to keep players engaged. I think the content added since launch has gradually moved in this direction. Sometimes it failed to hit the mark, sometimes it hit the mark with great success. I am sure Anet will have learnt a lot from what has been released so far, and will not make the same mistakes they have made in the past. If they do, it will hurt them more than it will hurt us.

I foresee improved multi-stage events, like those in Silverwastes, and more boss fights that require coordination in order to succeed. Lately, they have created content which has received a lot of praise (the Marionette being one of my favourites). So I am confident things will get better in HoT and beyond.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Not sure why more towards the map story is a bad thing per say.

The concern has nothing to do with the story, but about variety and gameplay. It’s not that Orr sucked because the undead area was filled with nothing but undead. Orr sucked because fighting nothing but the same obnoxious undead enemies just isn’t fun. The logic of the story doesn’t matter if no one’s enjoying themselves. Which isn’t to say that the logic should be thrown out either. You can make the variety logical, but the variety does need to be there.

I’m not sure we need to be that concerned, as I feel the newer areas have done a better job at being engaging and feeling more fair than Orr, but it’s something that does make me a bit nervous. The Modrem have access to some pretty annoying mechanics that would be frustrating to deal with on a wide, saturated scale.

Jokubas.4265:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Not sure why more towards the map story is a bad thing per say.

The concern has nothing to do with the story, but about variety and gameplay. It’s not that Orr sucked because the undead area was filled with nothing but undead. Orr sucked because fighting nothing but the same obnoxious undead enemies just isn’t fun. The logic of the story doesn’t matter if no one’s enjoying themselves. Which isn’t to say that the logic should be thrown out either. You can make the variety logical, but the variety does need to be there.

I’m not sure we need to be that concerned, as I feel the newer areas have done a better job at being engaging and feeling more fair than Orr, but it’s something that does make me a bit nervous. The Modrem have access to some pretty annoying mechanics that would be frustrating to deal with on a wide, saturated scale.

I don’t think you got the two words at the end of that sentence. You’re pretty much saying what I said. :p (you know, the entirety of my post rather than the one sentence.) Although I tend to be a bit vague-ish I suppose.

The OP made a quote, while I gave another which was more in line. The comparison of the queensdale map with a map that’s more towards the story isn’t a bad thing per say. Less variety is of course a concern, still, but that quote doesn’t point to that specifically.

A lot of the speculation is based on current content, which was most likely a testing ground for Anet to try new things. Each zone (Dry Top, SW, Southsun) has a single map-wide mechanic.

Of course, they don’t have to stop there. They could very well design zones with multiple map-wide mechanics with unique ways of interacting with each other. They could very well combine all three maps (which they probably did – verticality, pact camps, fighting against Mordrem) and have all three map-wide mechanics fuse together for unique experiences.

And that’s drawing from what we already know about HoT and the current game. It doesn’t have to stop there.

As is always the case with future updates: Wait and see.

We know so far that there will be:

Modrem, same ones we have now probably (Vines types, trolls, husks types, thrasher types, Terragriff types, Wolves, Menders) and The huge Modrem Vines tunneler things, and probably lots of types of Modrem Court Sylvari (Nightmare Court or maybe Malyck’s Tree) and Also Modrem Wyverns.

Dinosaurs: we saw three types and also some type of Mushroom things (mandragoras?). There was also some sort of large rolling reptile not sure if modrem.

Insects: Purple Glowing insects (Scarabs maybe) and some sort of Six legged Caterpillar/beetle type of thing

Other Likely additions:
More Sun Worshiping Hylek
More Inquest
White Mantle and Mursaat maybe
The Frog People
More Skrit maybe
More Elementals and Dust Motes
Fringe aggressive Pact members and Corrupting Sylvari (not quite Modrem Court yet)
Druid/Mossheart Modrem?

Also the Wastes area from the beginning of Hot Trailer (where Rytlock enters before the golden city) can have new types of enemies too.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Test.8734:

This changes as the game goes on, and we have maps in which basically all the events are themed with the map – like Orr. Where we fight basically the same few enemies in the entire map.

Now, I have never seen someone saying, “You know, I wish the Risen were part of more of the events we have in Orr”. What I have seen are complaints about how Orr is repetitive and lacks diversity within its enemies and events.

In other words, the expansion will be a lot like Orr. Instead of being as great as Queensdale.

Can’t say I’m surprised, given the way the expansion feels and reads rushed, but I’ll just leave it at that.

Who says QD is good? Who says Orr is bad? Who even know what HoT will be like? Perhaps you should open your mind and consider that, as was basically quoted, you will see a theme on the map but various little things going on. Meaning you can expect QD like stuff and Orr/Silverwaste like stuff. Plenty going on, not all mordrem minions. Pretty dense to assume otherwise.

As well I can’t understand you complainers about ‘rushed’ ‘not enough’ or the endless moaning that continue on these forums with only the basic info given to us. You are extrapolating and assuming things that may or may not be.

Trock Bronze.9625:

Who says QD is good? Who says Orr is bad? Who even know what HoT will be like? Perhaps you should open your mind and consider that, as was basically quoted, you will see a theme on the map but various little things going on. Meaning you can expect QD like stuff and Orr/Silverwaste like stuff. Plenty going on, not all mordrem minions. Pretty dense to assume otherwise.

As well I can’t understand you complainers about ‘rushed’ ‘not enough’ or the endless moaning that continue on these forums with only the basic info given to us. You are extrapolating and assuming things that may or may not be.

Before the nerf to the champions, Queensdale was the busiest area outside of Lion’s Arch. And before they toned down the amount of mobs (all Risen toned down) in the zone, Orr was the most devoid of players outside of mapping and personal story.

Others, on this thread, have already said as much.

Using your logic, Trock, you are also speculating. That’s kind of the point of this thread. Outside of a few shots, we have no idea how the mobs will be spread out. Will the majority be Mordy’s minions? Probably. And, to use your own words, it would be dense to assume otherwise.

Let’s not throw stones when you live in a glass house yourself.

I’ve found each new map to be worse and worse. For me, at least, it seems ArenaNet is going in the wrong direction with this game.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Before the nerf to the champions, Queensdale was the busiest area outside of Lion’s Arch. And before they toned down the amount of mobs (all Risen toned down) in the zone, Orr was the most devoid of players outside of mapping and personal story.

Others, on this thread, have already said as much.

Using your logic, Trock, you are also speculating. That’s kind of the point of this thread. Outside of a few shots, we have no idea how the mobs will be spread out. Will the majority be Mordy’s minions? Probably. And, to use your own words, it would be dense to assume otherwise.

Let’s not throw stones when you live in a glass house yourself.

Must say though. I never thought QD was a great map. It was merely populated because people were farming the bosses. Which would mean that a good map just needs alot of champions. Iron marches is my favourite. Though not because of the mordrem. I just like the event chains there. And I must say that the premises of less event chains that move about like in drytop arent my favourite at all. Silverwasres is alright. But still too much single events or repeating events. Those get dull really fast.