Guild Wars 2

I think designing instances by allowing content to be clearable by any group comp has lead to less build variety as one piece of the holy trinity far outclasses the others.

I think its time to divide the roles once again in instances. I would be interested in fights that require both heavy condi and heavy physical dmg along with support and control. maybe a boss that has loads of toughness and physical dmg is not very effective. this boss is immune to all damaging conditions and requires 3 ccs to land in a short window. the boss reacts to the first cc by ccing the person who threw it, or hunkering down and blocking attacks for a bit or leaping away. After the ccs land the boss will be stunned and a significant amnt of physical dmg in a short window will then remove his immunity from condis which do a crapton of dmg to him.

I really think its time to provide roles for individuals rather than simple positioning mechanics and dps whenever. this increases accountability and in turn rewards. for instance if your job was to burst hard in a specific moment and you failed, you would be the one that let your team down. conversely if you succeede in a really hard fight, you get the credit. you feel like the team actually couldnt have done it without you.

I really hope theres a future with new and much more difficult/rewarding instanced content. I also think its time to return to well defined roles and required team comps to complete content. I totally support the omission of a healer though. thoughts?

Simply increasing attack frequency and forcing players to flank and trade out agro would really take care of half of this. A dedicated healer shouldn’t be necessary. It should however be highly welcome in any party

No to required roles. I do not want to have to wait for a player who has a specific build and is skilled in their role in order to play the game.

I want to be able to group with my friends and we all play the characters and builds we want to play. Not have to worry about finding the content in the game that does require our gear set up or having to have someone play a character or change build to something they’re not wanting to play.

I want to not get kicked out of parties if Im in clerics gear.

Instead of having to play one of three classes (tank healer dps). you have to play 1 (dps).

i think that will end up resulting in an optimal clear where every does damage and trades aggro. i dont think a dedicated healer would ever have a role unless it was somehow mechanically required. I would love to see encounters that force multiple build types in a team.

Healers will become popular when you have to be super kitten good to go glass cannon. Like those people that solo Arah. THOSE should be the only people running glass cannon without worrying. Content should be hard enough that everybody else tosses in a bit of toughness and Vitality, or instead brings a healer and CC specialist along for the ride.

P.S. Telegraphed attacks and mechanics that’s heavily support DPS or put ridiculous focus on dodging (I’m looking at you Lupi) are the culprit. Dodging should be as important in pve as it is in pvp. Not the be all end all

Seera.5916:

No to required roles. I do not want to have to wait for a player who has a specific build and is skilled in their role in order to play the game.

I want to be able to group with my friends and we all play the characters and builds we want to play. Not have to worry about finding the content in the game that does require our gear set up or having to have someone play a character or change build to something they’re not wanting to play.

you can change builds at any time. all you would potentially need is 1 more set of gear. and i honestly see no way around the current dungeons which are faceroll at worst and moderately difficult with randos at best which allows for any team comp to clear. if you dont require roles, theres not much you can do to make bosses interesting.

Silhouette.5631:

Healers will become popular when you have to be super kitten good to go glass cannon. Like those people that solo Arah. THOSE should be the only people running glass cannon without worrying. Content should be hard enough that everybody else tosses in a bit of toughness and Vitality, or instead brings a healer and CC specialist along for the ride.

P.S. Telegraphed attacks and mechanics that’s heavily support DPS or put ridiculous focus on dodging (I’m looking at you Lupi) are the culprit. Dodging should be as important in pve as it is in pvp. Not the be all end all

this just sounds like ramping up boss dmg or attack frequency. i think the core of the encounters are still quite boring compared to trinity mmos. couldnt you still clear with 5 knights? everyone could be doing the same thing, avoiding attacks and doing some dmg inbetween.

I absolutely hate the traditional trinity, but its pretty satisfying as the healer, tank, or that one dps that needed to get something done and succeded.

Paprikaspice.8462:

Seera.5916:

No to required roles. I do not want to have to wait for a player who has a specific build and is skilled in their role in order to play the game.

I want to be able to group with my friends and we all play the characters and builds we want to play. Not have to worry about finding the content in the game that does require our gear set up or having to have someone play a character or change build to something they’re not wanting to play.

you can change builds at any time. all you would potentially need is 1 more set of gear. and i honestly see no way around the current dungeons which are faceroll at worst and moderately difficult with randos at best which allows for any team comp to clear. if you dont require roles, theres not much you can do to make bosses interesting.

You did not get what I said. I’m fully aware that I can change builds when I want to.

And that’s the thing. I should only have to change my build when I WANT to.

If content my friends and I want to play requires Builds X, Y, and Z to be able to be done with no exceptions and none of us have Build Y, I do not want to be forced to have to wait to find someone with Build Y who knows what they are doing or have to have someone switch into Build Y to do the content.

And having to carry another set of gear around should not be a consequence of making the game more diverse in builds.

Seera.5916:

Paprikaspice.8462:

Seera.5916:

No to required roles. I do not want to have to wait for a player who has a specific build and is skilled in their role in order to play the game.

I want to be able to group with my friends and we all play the characters and builds we want to play. Not have to worry about finding the content in the game that does require our gear set up or having to have someone play a character or change build to something they’re not wanting to play.

you can change builds at any time. all you would potentially need is 1 more set of gear. and i honestly see no way around the current dungeons which are faceroll at worst and moderately difficult with randos at best which allows for any team comp to clear. if you dont require roles, theres not much you can do to make bosses interesting.

You did not get what I said. I’m fully aware that I can change builds when I want to.

And that’s the thing. I should only have to change my build when I WANT to.

If content my friends and I want to play requires Builds X, Y, and Z to be able to be done with no exceptions and none of us have Build Y, I do not want to be forced to have to wait to find someone with Build Y who knows what they are doing or have to have someone switch into Build Y to do the content.

And having to carry another set of gear around should not be a consequence of making the game more diverse in builds.

you dont have to change builds or carry a second set of gear. at worst a few people in a geoup would need to switch. if you did have a second set of gear, youd basically fit with any group.

i think its a small price to pay for having meaningful instances. also, old dungeons would still be clearable with any comp.

whats the alternative? more of the same? no more dungeons? both sound terrible to me.

also the current meta is all dmg. if youre not zerk, youre not optimal. maybe you could make content possible but take much longer without diverse roles. thats basically how the dungeons are now except instead of multiple roles theres just 1

You can play how you want.
You can’t force people to want you in their group if you don’t want to play how they want.

If the game changes to require a trinity, you’ll be kicked out of groups that already have someone with your role on it.

You don’t have to play dps to complete any content.
But most of the PUGs want people to dps and bring some group utility based on the encounters (reflects, stealth, buffs, etc) and the latest strategy broadcasted on youtube.

Its not the game that forces you to play something… It’s the players you want to group with.

Changing the content will only change what others will force you to play…

Seera.5916:

Paprikaspice.8462:

Seera.5916:

No to required roles. I do not want to have to wait for a player who has a specific build and is skilled in their role in order to play the game.

I want to be able to group with my friends and we all play the characters and builds we want to play. Not have to worry about finding the content in the game that does require our gear set up or having to have someone play a character or change build to something they’re not wanting to play.

you can change builds at any time. all you would potentially need is 1 more set of gear. and i honestly see no way around the current dungeons which are faceroll at worst and moderately difficult with randos at best which allows for any team comp to clear. if you dont require roles, theres not much you can do to make bosses interesting.

You did not get what I said. I’m fully aware that I can change builds when I want to.

And that’s the thing. I should only have to change my build when I WANT to.

If content my friends and I want to play requires Builds X, Y, and Z to be able to be done with no exceptions and none of us have Build Y, I do not want to be forced to have to wait to find someone with Build Y who knows what they are doing or have to have someone switch into Build Y to do the content.

And having to carry another set of gear around should not be a consequence of making the game more diverse in builds.

Without commenting on the rest of the related issues… the problem is that if you can clear the content with any build, or any combination of builds, the result is that the only viable build in group content is the one that dishes out the most damage – because that’s the build that clears it the -fastest-, and thus gives you the best profit. And unless you are running that kind of build, you are not welcome to most groups. So essentially it’s not “play whatever build you like”, it’s “play the build that’s generally agreed to be the best” or “fast run exp only 10k ping gear”

Paprikaspice.8462:

Seera.5916:

Paprikaspice.8462:

Seera.5916:

No to required roles. I do not want to have to wait for a player who has a specific build and is skilled in their role in order to play the game.

I want to be able to group with my friends and we all play the characters and builds we want to play. Not have to worry about finding the content in the game that does require our gear set up or having to have someone play a character or change build to something they’re not wanting to play.

you can change builds at any time. all you would potentially need is 1 more set of gear. and i honestly see no way around the current dungeons which are faceroll at worst and moderately difficult with randos at best which allows for any team comp to clear. if you dont require roles, theres not much you can do to make bosses interesting.

You did not get what I said. I’m fully aware that I can change builds when I want to.

And that’s the thing. I should only have to change my build when I WANT to.

If content my friends and I want to play requires Builds X, Y, and Z to be able to be done with no exceptions and none of us have Build Y, I do not want to be forced to have to wait to find someone with Build Y who knows what they are doing or have to have someone switch into Build Y to do the content.

And having to carry another set of gear around should not be a consequence of making the game more diverse in builds.

you dont have to change builds or carry a second set of gear. at worst a few people in a geoup would need to switch. if you did have a second set of gear, youd basically fit with any group.

i think its a small price to pay for having meaningful instances. also, old dungeons would still be clearable with any comp.

whats the alternative? more of the same? no more dungeons? both sound terrible to me.

So I should force my friends to have to be the ones who always changes their builds? You’re suggesting that I be selfish?

I’d like to see them adjust the enemy AI.

The point the game has content where it is required for someone to be running a specific build in order to be able to complete the content is the day I stop playing the game. And by this I mean if you randomly selected 5 builds out of thin air and had people run through the dungeon as an experiment (willingly), the group would be able to complete the content. Maybe not as fast a group of all meta build players.

Kitsune.1902:

Seera.5916:

Paprikaspice.8462:

Seera.5916:

No to required roles. I do not want to have to wait for a player who has a specific build and is skilled in their role in order to play the game.

I want to be able to group with my friends and we all play the characters and builds we want to play. Not have to worry about finding the content in the game that does require our gear set up or having to have someone play a character or change build to something they’re not wanting to play.

you can change builds at any time. all you would potentially need is 1 more set of gear. and i honestly see no way around the current dungeons which are faceroll at worst and moderately difficult with randos at best which allows for any team comp to clear. if you dont require roles, theres not much you can do to make bosses interesting.

You did not get what I said. I’m fully aware that I can change builds when I want to.

And that’s the thing. I should only have to change my build when I WANT to.

If content my friends and I want to play requires Builds X, Y, and Z to be able to be done with no exceptions and none of us have Build Y, I do not want to be forced to have to wait to find someone with Build Y who knows what they are doing or have to have someone switch into Build Y to do the content.

And having to carry another set of gear around should not be a consequence of making the game more diverse in builds.

Without commenting on the rest of the related issues… the problem is that if you can clear the content with any build, or any combination of builds, the result is that the only viable build in group content is the one that dishes out the most damage – because that’s the build that clears it the -fastest-, and thus gives you the best profit. And unless you are running that kind of build, you are not welcome to most groups. So essentially it’s not “play whatever build you like”, it’s “play the build that’s generally agreed to be the best” or “fast run exp only 10k ping gear”

But you can group with others who do not have to play with others in meta builds.

I am not opposed to design choices that increase variety in the PUG meta. I am opposed to changes that force people to have to have certain builds in their party in order to complete content.

Edited because the record running meta is very likely different from the PUG meta and most players don’t do record runs of anything.

Anet desinged the hole game around not forcing players to play a certain role like in gw1 where players would spam looking for x class/build for hours in pvp.

What stops you from playing as you want now? All it would take would be for the people who post in these threads to put each other on their kitten friends list. Oh, wait, you want your way to be the default way on PuG’s so you don’t have to lift a bloody finger.

So, you want ANet to return their attention to dungeons — which they’ve not touched in a long time and to completely redesign the game. You want everyone to have to play your way — because in order for dedicated roles to be the accepted way in the stinking PuG meta, Anet would have to make them required. You want to ruin the game for anyone who prefers it the way it is because you cba to make your own groups.

What we have now: Group comps can include any builds, any gear, and profession and succeed. This is the ultimate in build diversity.

What you want: Group comps will be just like in other games, a tank, a healer, and some DPS. Casual groups, guild groups, PuG’s, everyone will have to use the same comps to succeed. The only variations might be on which professions play DPS. Much less diversity.

What the result will be: PuG’s will still exclude, only they’ll be kicking because they need a tank or healer. Or because your tank build is not the accepted tank build. Or because your heal build is not the accepted heal build. Or for whatever other reason they come up with. Exclusion is not a mechanics issue — it’s a people issue.

Sorry, no thanks.

The roles in GW2 exist. They’re just not as clearly defined and hard limited by stats like they are in other MMOs:

The Might/Fury stacker: given to warriors and eles.
Projectile reflecter/stopper: Most classes, but mesmer/guard/engi are best
Cleanser: Engi, Guard, Mesmer
Stealther: Engi, Thief
Blind Spammer: Necro, Thief, Engi, and sometimes guard
Defiance Stripper: Mesmer, Thief

And that is only a generalized overlook on what the classes can do. Many of them do so much more than that, but don’t classify as a “build” because of how unique it is. For example, Ele’s Frost Bow is a great stun + burst weapon, Mesmer portals are a great movement technique in the right spot, many of these builds will stack other things like protection, swiftness, and stability.

There’s really only two “roles” that are limited by the gear you choose.

Tanker: This one is technically an asterisk, because many thieves can distract enemies with evades endlessly, as well as many guards and mesmers can block attacks. Also the necro and warrior have so much bulk and sustain that they can face tank many champions, even in glass cannon gear.

Healer: Also an asterisk. Healing while players are still standing requires the healing power stat. But, if a player goes down, you can quickly bring them back up regardless of your stat set.

Overall I find the old holy trinity to be extremely boring. It is a system of negatives: you as a player are an incomplete unit that is hampered by weaknesses which prevent you from performing by yourself. You are good at one thing, and horrible at two things, leaving you relatively incompetent. The whole system exists to simplify the effective healing vs. effective damage formula, and it isn’t that fun at all. I can see no reason why the system has to be so restraining.

IndigoSundown.5419:

What stops you from playing as you want now?

Actually, the issue is far more complicated than that. Whether we should have hard roles or not isn’t just a matter of player preference, but a business decision. People like having hard roles, and they like having their playstyle reinforced by the game’s design. So, the question is if the game can be more interesting, entertaining, and appealing to the public at large if there were hard roles.

It isn’t a stupid thought. Since beta, one of the biggest legitimate complaints about GW2 is that the PVE combat is samey. From an outside perspective, watching everyone in the team do the exact same stack and smack routine with every encounter ever is both unpleasant to look at and unappealing in general. Hard roles appear to be dynamic and unique, with each player’s singular contribution being noticeable.

From the diversity standpoint no one “loses out” if tanking and healing become requirements. DPS preference players still get to DPS, but now the other two legs get to do their thing, too. The problem is that players who build bulky or healy, or heck even conditiony face not gratitude, but ire from their teammates. Telling these minority preference players to just go and hang out with each other is like telling racial minorities to do the same thing to avoid racism. It isn’t a fix, at all. The hate is still there, you’re just trying to hide yourself away from it.

While it is a community problem, it is also a design problem. So, facing the unreasonable wrath of selfish teenagers on the internet, the only reasonable solution would be to modify the game in such a way that the stat combinations that Anet put into the game are useful in that game.

Personally I think the solution to this problem is just to make the game harder, but in specific ways to encourage more than just corner pulling and bursting. You’ll still get full zerk groups, but hopefully the skill of the average player would mean that running a bunch of unaffiliated full zerkers is no longer completely superior to 4 zerks + 1 zealot.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

IndigoSundown.5419:

What stops you from playing as you want now?

Actually, the issue is far more complicated than that. Whether we should have hard roles or not isn’t just a matter of player preference, but a business decision. People like having hard roles, and they like having their playstyle reinforced by the game’s design. So, the question is if the game can be more interesting, entertaining, and appealing to the public at large if there were hard roles.

It isn’t a stupid thought. Since beta, one of the biggest legitimate complaints about GW2 is that the PVE combat is samey. From an outside perspective, watching everyone in the team do the exact same stack and smack routine with every encounter ever is both unpleasant to look at and unappealing in general. Hard roles appear to be dynamic and unique, with each player’s singular contribution being noticeable.

From the diversity standpoint no one “loses out” if tanking and healing become requirements. DPS preference players still get to DPS, but now the other two legs get to do their thing, too. The problem is that players who build bulky or healy, or heck even conditiony face not gratitude, but ire from their teammates. Telling these minority preference players to just go and hang out with each other is like telling racial minorities to do the same thing to avoid racism. It isn’t a fix, at all. The hate is still there, you’re just trying to hide yourself away from it.

While it is a community problem, it is also a design problem. So, facing the unreasonable wrath of selfish teenagers on the internet, the only reasonable solution would be to modify the game in such a way that the stat combinations that Anet put into the game are useful in that game.

Personally I think the solution to this problem is just to make the game harder, but in specific ways to encourage more than just corner pulling and bursting. You’ll still get full zerk groups, but hopefully the skill of the average player would mean that running a bunch of unaffiliated full zerkers is no longer completely superior to 4 zerks + 1 zealot.

Well the whole design is apparently leaning away from group content to – on one hand solo, and on other hand ‘world events’. Dungeons are relic of the past, and fractals don’t seem to get a huge amount of attention either. So I don’t know if this is really even very relevant to the game as it is right now.

Kitsune.1902:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

IndigoSundown.5419:

What stops you from playing as you want now?

Actually, the issue is far more complicated than that. Whether we should have hard roles or not isn’t just a matter of player preference, but a business decision. People like having hard roles, and they like having their playstyle reinforced by the game’s design. So, the question is if the game can be more interesting, entertaining, and appealing to the public at large if there were hard roles.

It isn’t a stupid thought. Since beta, one of the biggest legitimate complaints about GW2 is that the PVE combat is samey. From an outside perspective, watching everyone in the team do the exact same stack and smack routine with every encounter ever is both unpleasant to look at and unappealing in general. Hard roles appear to be dynamic and unique, with each player’s singular contribution being noticeable.

From the diversity standpoint no one “loses out” if tanking and healing become requirements. DPS preference players still get to DPS, but now the other two legs get to do their thing, too. The problem is that players who build bulky or healy, or heck even conditiony face not gratitude, but ire from their teammates. Telling these minority preference players to just go and hang out with each other is like telling racial minorities to do the same thing to avoid racism. It isn’t a fix, at all. The hate is still there, you’re just trying to hide yourself away from it.

While it is a community problem, it is also a design problem. So, facing the unreasonable wrath of selfish teenagers on the internet, the only reasonable solution would be to modify the game in such a way that the stat combinations that Anet put into the game are useful in that game.

Personally I think the solution to this problem is just to make the game harder, but in specific ways to encourage more than just corner pulling and bursting. You’ll still get full zerk groups, but hopefully the skill of the average player would mean that running a bunch of unaffiliated full zerkers is no longer completely superior to 4 zerks + 1 zealot.

Well the whole design is apparently leaning away from group content to – on one hand solo, and on other hand ‘world events’. Dungeons are relic of the past, and fractals don’t seem to get a huge amount of attention either. So I don’t know if this is really even very relevant to the game as it is right now.

I suspect we’ll see something happening with fractals in the expansion because there’s a fractal mastery coming. No point in doing that if there’s nothing coming for fractals.

Vayne.8563:

I suspect we’ll see something happening with fractals in the expansion because there’s a fractal mastery coming. No point in doing that if there’s nothing coming for fractals.

It’s possible. I think the question is, how many players are doing fractals actively. Since the masteries are kind of general framework, it probably won’t be very difficult to add a path for fractals, and throw in some abilities like agony resistance, and the like. It won’t tie a lot of resources to do, and will give something for fractal runners to gnaw on.

To actually create more fractal dungeons, and generally make the fractals a less niche part of the game is another matter. It would be a lot more work, and personally I don’t expect it to happen.

I think the discussion on this thread is kind of highlighting some problems involved with this. The class system on GW2 just doesn’t work very well in dungeons, or group content in general. “Everyone can do everything” works fine for solo content, basically all classes in GW2 are solo classes. It sort of works in large scale world content too, where in most cases you can just throw enough people into encounter to hammer it down without any highly specialized roles.

It’s the middle range where it sort of breaks. The system is mostly built to let everyone just sort of do their own thing, but there’s little in GW2 class system to support actual group dynamics. Fire field + blast finishers is more or less the height of it.

Silhouette.5631:

I want to not get kicked out of parties if Im in clerics gear.

Instead of having to play one of three classes (tank healer dps). you have to play 1 (dps).

Introducing the holy trinity would not solve your issue then.
Lets imagine for a sec that we need 1 healer per party, 3 dps, and 1 support

The meta will quickly find the classes that are most efficient in these open roles, distribute the builds on meta-battle, and then continue kicking everyone who doesn’t follow suit.

Your issue starts all by yourself.
People that want a specific role from you will tell you so in their LFG.
F.e: "Full run Meta zerk +10k AP, ele / thief "
If you join on something else than a ele or thief, you get kicked if you don’t relog.
If you join with less than 10k AP, you get insta-kicked.
If you join with the right class, but non-meta build, you get insta-kicked as soon as they find out.

Will overhauling the dungeon mechanics change anything of the above? Ofc not. If you don’t want to get kicked you should read the LFG text properly and check first if you meet the requirements, or open your own with FFA (free for all) in the title. Believe it or not, there are many experienced dungeon runners out there who don’t like the meta and rather take increased run-times for a more relaxed run. You are not alone. Unless you force yourself into a party that did not ask for you.

With that said, yes I’d love more variety to the boss mechanics as well, but solely for the reason to get more fun out of it. It will not magically fix anything for anyone who currently gets kicked continuously. That Fix for that must come from yourself.

There are things in gw2 that I dislike, but how they do combat isn’t one of them. No to the return of the trinity. No to needing 3000 arcane damage dps being monitored by raid leaders in order to stay in the group. That was so stressful and so annoying.

Silhouette.5631:

Dodging should be as important in pve as it is in pvp. Not the be all end all

Are you under the impression dodging isn’t important in PvP?

Lol at post like these. Hot wasn’t designed to be like every other trinity game like every other mmo and that is the reason i play this game. There’s so many games out there that already trinity. Why are you barking at this tree.

There is another topic somewhere talking about raid ideas. I think raids are the perfect medium for applying more build diversity. If you simply retool all the current content then you create the problem where you are forced to play trinity and this game is not about that. However, if you have a say a 15-man raid you can seperate the content within the raid so that 3 5-man groups are needed and each group will face differnt challenges i.e Group 1 needs to be high dps to kill mobs before they self destruct and 1-shot you, group 2 will face physical dam imunity so heavy condi is required. and Group 3 will face mobs that will kill themselves slowly and you need to outlast their damage thus requiring healing/support players.

This way in raids all playstyles have a role and is organized content so filling out the neccessary spots is part of the process. If you want to simpy jump in and play then do regular 5-man group content.

The way I see it is that, in order to have diversity I have to deliberately handicap myself. I can’t feel genuinely challenged while I’m aware that I’m holding myself back.

The problem is not really about a trinity, rather than the facts that full DPS is just too easy to pull off even with random teams without much coordination. The sad part is that I feel more confident in finishing a dungeon with a trained monkey wearing full zerker gear than a skilled player trying to be a healer/condition/whatever_he_wants.

Why is this? Its because of the encounter design. Enemies gladly staying in your AoE damage without the players having to actively try to make them stay there with stuns/chills/pulls/ any means of CC this game offers. Ranged mobs following you behind the corner in melee range.

All this game needs to make even a full DPS meta interesting would be to teach the AI to not fall into that stack in corner —> burst to death trap.

If the game simply starts requiring a bit more effort than corner stacking, and enemies activelyavoiding player damage I’m sure the vast majority of players start to see that chill, cripple, hammer warrior stunlocking stuff in a new light.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

So, the question is if the game can be more interesting, entertaining, and appealing to the public at large if there were hard roles.

It isn’t a stupid thought. Since beta, one of the biggest legitimate complaints about GW2 is that the PVE combat is samey. From an outside perspective, watching everyone in the team do the exact same stack and smack routine with every encounter ever is both unpleasant to look at and unappealing in general. Hard roles appear to be dynamic and unique, with each player’s singular contribution being noticeable.

I say, “No, it would be less interesting, etc.” While hard roles may look dynamic and unique, what are you really doing? “Ooo, I’m pressing a button that uses a passive aggro attractor!” or, “I’m watching health bars!” What’s really going on is no more appealing than what we have now. What’s really going on is the special snowflake feel. “I’m doing something the others {in the group} can’t do.”

Looks like you, to a point, agree.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Overall I find the old holy trinity to be extremely boring. It is a system of negatives: you as a player are an incomplete unit that is hampered by weaknesses which prevent you from performing by yourself. You are good at one thing, and horrible at two things, leaving you relatively incompetent. The whole system exists to simplify the effective healing vs. effective damage formula, and it isn’t that fun at all. I can see no reason why the system has to be so restraining.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

From the diversity standpoint no one “loses out” if tanking and healing become requirements.

Incorrect. Anyone who likes laissez-faire, anything goes, FFA runs loses out. They’d be saddled with needing a tank and healer. Furthermore, for the meta to accept that tank and healer, then those players will need to have a build that works within the heal/damage formula. Also, once the heal/damage formula is tweaked for tanks and healers to be required, where does that leave DPS? Do they need to perform to a certain level before whatever resources the tank/healer expend to do their thing run out? Where’s the freedom and diversity if that happens? While I’m fine with the zerk/AP req setters doing their thing over there, I’m more concerned about the laid-back people who enjoy dungeons their way.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The problem is that players who build bulky or healy, or heck even conditiony face not gratitude, but ire from their teammates. Telling these minority preference players to just go and hang out with each other is like telling racial minorities to do the same thing to avoid racism. It isn’t a fix, at all. The hate is still there, you’re just trying to hide yourself away from it.

And still will be no matter what design decisions are made. It’s just that it might not be focused at an individual who wants to be a tank but who toes the mark on build and tactics. It will still be focused on anyone who dares to deviate from the accepted. Changing a game mechanic would just shift the focus of internet exclusion behavior, it’s not going to get rid of it.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

While it is a community problem, it is also a design problem. So, facing the unreasonable wrath of selfish teenagers on the internet, the only reasonable solution would be to modify the game in such a way that the stat combinations that Anet put into the game are useful in that game.

Why does every gear prefix have to be useful in a dungeon meta? They’re not all useful in the WvW meta. In other games, tanks don’t typically wear their tank stuff in PvP — at least the ones I know didn’t once dual spec came in. Why can’t a prefix exist in what’s been designed as a free-for-all game that only gets used in one mode, or only by certain players who want certain things?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Personally I think the solution to this problem is just to make the game harder, but in specific ways to encourage more than just corner pulling and bursting. You’ll still get full zerk groups, but hopefully the skill of the average player would mean that running a bunch of unaffiliated full zerkers is no longer completely superior to 4 zerks + 1 zealot.

That, I’d have no problem with. However, dungeons are unlikely to get that kind of attention, and the problems with persistent world events are not the same as the perceived problems with dungeons. I’m kind of curious where ANet is going with the buffs to healing and the promises of harder content. Since the Wyvern boss did not look like that harder content — I’m wondering if they have stuff coming in FotM to accompany the fractal masteries. I guess we’ll see.

I’m sorry, but no, I never want any hard trinity put in place. I like the fact that I can insta fill a dungeon party, not having to wait around for a certain specialty class that I have to have, even to the extent of “hiring” one for coin just to get going. I had enough of this in other games, and the lack of this system in GW2 was a huge selling point for both myself and my Guild to come over. If you want to play in a group such as this, take the time to start a Guild based around these builds and you can play dungeons the way you all want until you’re hearts content in Clerics gear or whatever else you want to wear. Just for the record, our Guild couldn’t care less about what gear you are wearing when we fill from LFG, our ad is always “ACP3 All Welcome, No Aholes”. I just don’t want to be forced to change that to “ACP3 LF2M, Healer/Tank ONLY, Will Pay”.

Yeah…no. One of my least favorite parts of other MMOs was being forced to spam “LF Healer” or “LF Tank” for an hour just to do anything. Im all future content making pure DPS less desirable, but not for hard trinity rolls.

IndigoSundown.5419:

What stops you from playing as you want now? All it would take would be for the people who post in these threads to put each other on their kitten friends list. Oh, wait, you want your way to be the default way on PuG’s so you don’t have to lift a bloody finger.

So, you want ANet to return their attention to dungeons — which they’ve not touched in a long time and to completely redesign the game. You want everyone to have to play your way — because in order for dedicated roles to be the accepted way in the stinking PuG meta, Anet would have to make them required. You want to ruin the game for anyone who prefers it the way it is because you cba to make your own groups.

What we have now: Group comps can include any builds, any gear, and profession and succeed. This is the ultimate in build diversity.

What you want: Group comps will be just like in other games, a tank, a healer, and some DPS. Casual groups, guild groups, PuG’s, everyone will have to use the same comps to succeed. The only variations might be on which professions play DPS. Much less diversity.

What the result will be: PuG’s will still exclude, only they’ll be kicking because they need a tank or healer. Or because your tank build is not the accepted tank build. Or because your heal build is not the accepted heal build. Or for whatever other reason they come up with. Exclusion is not a mechanics issue — it’s a people issue.

Sorry, no thanks.

agreed on the root of exclusion. this is a problem with mmos in general. but at least with multiple required or heavily encouraged roles, you can play a greater doversity of builds without being excluded based on build. still am upgrade.

@ indigosundown

Whats wrong with a special snowflake feel? The differences between roles are real. Failures and successes in well defined roles are absolutely clear. You continue to cite the worst of the traditional trinity design where defined roles can be so much more than tank, healer, dps. Even in the traditional trinity, any game with half decent fundamental design can make each role realisitically different and fun. Agro doesnt have to be passive for a tank. defense doesnt have to be passive.

This is important in making group content actually engaging. I dont want a boss fight to just be dodge everything and do whatever damage you can.

Laissez faire players already loose out as theyre not part of the meta unless they are zerk. making encounters tougher, slower but still doable is a matter of tweaking even when specialized roles are included. the only difference is the meta requires a doverse group rather than all zerk

the current situation is both monotone and exclusionary. roles wont fix the exclusionary part but hard to argue that it can be worse than the current meta in terms of how boring it will be.

Vayne.8563:

Kitsune.1902:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

IndigoSundown.5419:

What stops you from playing as you want now?

Actually, the issue is far more complicated than that. Whether we should have hard roles or not isn’t just a matter of player preference, but a business decision. People like having hard roles, and they like having their playstyle reinforced by the game’s design. So, the question is if the game can be more interesting, entertaining, and appealing to the public at large if there were hard roles.

It isn’t a stupid thought. Since beta, one of the biggest legitimate complaints about GW2 is that the PVE combat is samey. From an outside perspective, watching everyone in the team do the exact same stack and smack routine with every encounter ever is both unpleasant to look at and unappealing in general. Hard roles appear to be dynamic and unique, with each player’s singular contribution being noticeable.

From the diversity standpoint no one “loses out” if tanking and healing become requirements. DPS preference players still get to DPS, but now the other two legs get to do their thing, too. The problem is that players who build bulky or healy, or heck even conditiony face not gratitude, but ire from their teammates. Telling these minority preference players to just go and hang out with each other is like telling racial minorities to do the same thing to avoid racism. It isn’t a fix, at all. The hate is still there, you’re just trying to hide yourself away from it.

While it is a community problem, it is also a design problem. So, facing the unreasonable wrath of selfish teenagers on the internet, the only reasonable solution would be to modify the game in such a way that the stat combinations that Anet put into the game are useful in that game.

Personally I think the solution to this problem is just to make the game harder, but in specific ways to encourage more than just corner pulling and bursting. You’ll still get full zerk groups, but hopefully the skill of the average player would mean that running a bunch of unaffiliated full zerkers is no longer completely superior to 4 zerks + 1 zealot.

Well the whole design is apparently leaning away from group content to – on one hand solo, and on other hand ‘world events’. Dungeons are relic of the past, and fractals don’t seem to get a huge amount of attention either. So I don’t know if this is really even very relevant to the game as it is right now.

I suspect we’ll see something happening with fractals in the expansion because there’s a fractal mastery coming. No point in doing that if there’s nothing coming for fractals.

Fractals wouldn’t necessarily need anything new, as mastery is basically just the PvP reward tracks with context appropriate mechanical rewards rather then loot based ones (we think…. it could very well be a loot reward track).

Fractals, as a theme, have map specific mechanics rather then system wide ones. This is the ONLY reason, Fractals were initially popular among the greater PvE population; as it was a huge refreshing burst of novelty that should had been the basis of all standard Dungeons in the game.

The Behemoth fractal is by far my favorite. It forces players to cooperate, but does so by focusing on a single object (The Hammer) which players have to take turns using in order to keep momentum going. One player carries the hammer, and has to get kills with it to gather charges, while the rest of the team both supports the carrier and suppresses the cultists; yet not so much that the Hammer can’t get the tags he needs. EVERYONE is active and conscientious in this scenario, and the environmental hazards do a great job of keeping things in motion. And this isn’t even considering the massive lore potential of a mystical being held captive by a bunch of cultists.

Another good one is Thaumanova Reactor, with its set of mini challenges.

Paprikaspice.8462:

@ indigosundown

Whats wrong with a special snowflake feel? The differences between roles are real. Failures and successes in well defined roles are absolutely clear. You continue to cite the worst of the traditional trinity design where defined roles can be so much more than tank, healer, dps. Even in the traditional trinity, any game with half decent fundamental design can make each role realisitically different and fun. Agro doesnt have to be passive for a tank. defense doesnt have to be passive.

This is important in making group content actually engaging. I dont want a boss fight to just be dodge everything and do whatever damage you can.

Laissez faire players already loose out as theyre not part of the meta unless they are zerk. making encounters tougher, slower but still doable is a matter of tweaking even when specialized roles are included. the only difference is the meta requires a doverse group rather than all zerk

the current situation is both monotone and exclusionary. roles wont fix the exclusionary part but hard to argue that it can be worse than the current meta in terms of how boring it will be.

So if Laissez faire players group together, they are suddenly forced to wear zerk?

Hard roles are not the solution. They will only add new problems where old ones were. People will have to spend ages in LFG looking for a tank or a healer or whatever that meshes with the other builds that they have. I’d personally rather have a small variety of meta builds and no unnecessary waiting in LFG than having to wait in LFG to get a specific player filling a specific role.

Seera.5916:

Paprikaspice.8462:

@ indigosundown

Whats wrong with a special snowflake feel? The differences between roles are real. Failures and successes in well defined roles are absolutely clear. You continue to cite the worst of the traditional trinity design where defined roles can be so much more than tank, healer, dps. Even in the traditional trinity, any game with half decent fundamental design can make each role realisitically different and fun. Agro doesnt have to be passive for a tank. defense doesnt have to be passive.

This is important in making group content actually engaging. I dont want a boss fight to just be dodge everything and do whatever damage you can.

Laissez faire players already loose out as theyre not part of the meta unless they are zerk. making encounters tougher, slower but still doable is a matter of tweaking even when specialized roles are included. the only difference is the meta requires a doverse group rather than all zerk

the current situation is both monotone and exclusionary. roles wont fix the exclusionary part but hard to argue that it can be worse than the current meta in terms of how boring it will be.

So if Laissez faire players group together, they are suddenly forced to wear zerk?

Hard roles are not the solution. They will only add new problems where old ones were. People will have to spend ages in LFG looking for a tank or a healer or whatever that meshes with the other builds that they have. I’d personally rather have a small variety of meta builds and no unnecessary waiting in LFG than having to wait in LFG to get a specific player filling a specific role.

no, but they sure as heck wont be accepted by every group. thats what im saying. making content still doable but much slower or difficult in other ways is a matter of tweaking. its conceivable that encounters that strongly encourage specific roles in a party can be completed without them.

also the game is already moving in this direction by its core design, even if instances havent yet. GW2 has 2 main roles at the moment, dmg and sponge. The current dungeon meta doesnt encourage the sponge role. Support and speed are important but generally secondary to one of these roles. Even hugely important support abilities like portal dont consume an entire build. HoT looks to really make support a primary role.

why design ventari for the revenant if its just going to be useless in an entire facet of the game? why make condis more powerful in pve? just for qol sake?

Paprikaspice.8462:

Seera.5916:

Paprikaspice.8462:

@ indigosundown

Whats wrong with a special snowflake feel? The differences between roles are real. Failures and successes in well defined roles are absolutely clear. You continue to cite the worst of the traditional trinity design where defined roles can be so much more than tank, healer, dps. Even in the traditional trinity, any game with half decent fundamental design can make each role realisitically different and fun. Agro doesnt have to be passive for a tank. defense doesnt have to be passive.

This is important in making group content actually engaging. I dont want a boss fight to just be dodge everything and do whatever damage you can.

Laissez faire players already loose out as theyre not part of the meta unless they are zerk. making encounters tougher, slower but still doable is a matter of tweaking even when specialized roles are included. the only difference is the meta requires a doverse group rather than all zerk

the current situation is both monotone and exclusionary. roles wont fix the exclusionary part but hard to argue that it can be worse than the current meta in terms of how boring it will be.

So if Laissez faire players group together, they are suddenly forced to wear zerk?

Hard roles are not the solution. They will only add new problems where old ones were. People will have to spend ages in LFG looking for a tank or a healer or whatever that meshes with the other builds that they have. I’d personally rather have a small variety of meta builds and no unnecessary waiting in LFG than having to wait in LFG to get a specific player filling a specific role.

no, but they sure as heck wont be accepted by every group. thats what im saying. making content still doable but much slower or difficult in other ways is a matter of tweaking. its conceivable that encounters that strongly encourage specific roles in a party can be completed without them.

also the game is already moving in this direction by its core design, even if instances havent yet. GW2 has 2 main roles at the moment, dmg and sponge. The current dungeon meta doesnt encourage the sponge role. Support and speed are important but generally secondary to one of these roles. Even hugely important support abilities like portal dont consume an entire build. HoT looks to really make support a primary role.

why design ventari for the revenant if its just going to be useless in an entire facet of the game? why make condis more powerful in pve? just for qol sake?

I’m not saying to not make other roles viable.

I just don’t want the method chosen to be adding hard roles to the game.

Seera.5916:

I just don’t want the method chosen to be adding hard roles to the game.

Hard roles is a wonderful thing, if done right. They are usually thematically tight and easy to grasp, unlike soft roles, which, at first glance, all look “same-y”. There’s a reason for why a game like GW2 is criticized for being “all dps” or having “no build diversity”: because soft roles contribute to that perception.

To be honest, hard roles are, to me, one of the key pillars of the entire RPG genre, much like how loot or stats are. A RPG is all about, as the name of the genre implies, choosing a role (Role Playing Game), a theme, a specific style or attitude. When everything feels same-y, the fantasy appeal and the charm of playing with a role is lost. Of course, that’s my opinion. You may not value that as much as I do.

However, will all being said, I don’t mean that I wish to see the “holy trinity”. There’s plenty of different roles you can make beyond healer or tank. GW1, for example, did not have a tank role, but the heal role was divided into two (healing and protection), and there was crowd controler/ disrupter (mesmers in general), minion masters or spirit turrets (great to prevent enemies from getting close to the back line, or to provoke aggro), general support (paragons especially), and a distinction between aoe nukers and single target burst builds (so it wasn’t all “dps”).

If the new content is done right, anet can potentially add plenty of new, distinct, fun roles to the game. Ventari offers an unique and different healing playstyle. Chronomancer offers time-based support for bursting, defense and general cooldown utility. Revenant’s Mallyx will be able to turn the enemy’s conditions against themselves. Etc. And all those “hard roles” are more interesting that way. They wouldn’t be half as interesting if they were just “stack might, vulnerability and fury, dps, use the occasional block or reflect” that current builds seem to generally fall to.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Seera.5916:

I just don’t want the method chosen to be adding hard roles to the game.

Hard roles is a wonderful thing, if done right. They are usually thematically tight and easy to grasp, unlike soft roles, which, at first glance, all look “same-y”. There’s a reason for why a game like GW2 is criticized for being “all dps” or having “no build diversity”: because soft roles contribute to that perception.

To be honest, hard roles are, to me, one of the key pillars of the entire RPG genre, much like how loot or stats are. A RPG is all about, as the name of the genre implies, choosing a role (Role Playing Game), a theme, a specific style or attitude. When everything feels same-y, the fantasy appeal and the charm of playing with a role is lost. Of course, that’s my opinion. You may not value that as much as I do.

However, will all being said, I don’t mean that I wish to see the “holy trinity”. There’s plenty of different roles you can make beyond healer or tank. GW1, for example, did not have a tank role, but the heal role was divided into two (healing and protection), and there was crowd controler/ disrupter (mesmers in general), minion masters or spirit turrets (great to prevent enemies from getting close to the back line, or to provoke aggro), general support (paragons especially), and a distinction between aoe nukers and single target burst builds (so it wasn’t all “dps”).

If the new content is done right, anet can potentially add plenty of new, distinct, fun roles to the game. Ventari offers an unique and different healing playstyle. Chronomancer offers time-based support for bursting, defense and general cooldown utility. Revenant’s Mallyx will be able to turn the enemy’s conditions against themselves. Etc. And all those “hard roles” are more interesting that way. They wouldn’t be half as interesting if they were just “stack might, vulnerability and fury, dps, use the occasional block or reflect” that current builds seem to generally fall to.

As long as five players who are friends and want to play together and all want to do the same role have the chance to complete the content without changing to a different role, then I don’t care how they change it up. Be it they all want to play DPS or they all want to play Support or Control or whatever.

I don’t want to have to wait for someone in a particular build to show up in order to be able to do content.

Some people really enjoy soloing content. Add hard roles to the game and you destroy their fun. Because they can no longer do it alone. They have to bring others.

Paprikaspice.8462:

@ indigosundown

Whats wrong with a special snowflake feel? The differences between roles are real. Failures and successes in well defined roles are absolutely clear. You continue to cite the worst of the traditional trinity design where defined roles can be so much more than tank, healer, dps. Even in the traditional trinity, any game with half decent fundamental design can make each role realisitically different and fun. Agro doesnt have to be passive for a tank. defense doesnt have to be passive.

I cite the worst of trinity design because I find the system to be really bad. It means that I’m fighting really stupid opponents. In my PNP games, only the really stupid enemies attack the guy who is insulting them. The smart ones go for the cleric, then the mage, or vice versa. As to feeling special, I have no problem with anyone seeking that. I do have a problem with them seeking it by changing this game to the detriment of others, when they can make a unique contribution in a variety of ways under the existing system. The difference is that in GW2, the roles are more subtle, whereas in trinity games they hit me over the head. I prefer subtle.

This is important in making group content actually engaging. I dont want a boss fight to just be dodge everything and do whatever damage you can.

Personally, if effort is to be put into making content engaging, I’d prefer it be spent introducing variations into content. GW2 has way too many bosses who use 2-4 moves the entire fight. No phases, no variation based on player tactics. That’s what I find boring, not the fact that my passive stats are geared towards damage rather than defense or healing. These GW2 encounters are the equivalent of face boss away from party and burn him encounters in trinity games. Both are boring.

Laissez faire players already loose out as theyre not part of the meta unless they are zerk. making encounters tougher, slower but still doable is a matter of tweaking even when specialized roles are included. the only difference is the meta requires a doverse group rather than all zerk

There are plenty of people who do dungeons in laissez faire groups, guild or not, who are not left out because they aren’t meta. They’re choosing to take the extra effort to type out an LFG asking for Anything Goes, or wait for guild members. The meta is relevant to them only as far as they want it to be. And they could lose out if suddenly the game changed so that they needed a Guardian Tank and an Ele Healer.

the current situation is both monotone and exclusionary. roles wont fix the exclusionary part but hard to argue that it can be worse than the current meta in terms of how boring it will be.

Responses in italics.

As to your last point, see my second response, above. Also, what I find interesting in trinity games can be done in GW2 without putting hard roles in. The roles themselves, though, are boring.

Who knows. ANet just buffed healing. Maybe they’ll provide mobs in the mentioned “challenging content” that require people to use every tool the game provides. I’d rather see that than a return to an older paradigm. I also think that if dungeons had seen development, and were as hard now as they were at launch, we’d see a lot less of these “meta is boring” arguments. The fact is that the meta is boring because it’s the easiest way to do the dungeon.

Seera.5916:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Seera.5916:

I just don’t want the method chosen to be adding hard roles to the game.

Hard roles is a wonderful thing, if done right. They are usually thematically tight and easy to grasp, unlike soft roles, which, at first glance, all look “same-y”. There’s a reason for why a game like GW2 is criticized for being “all dps” or having “no build diversity”: because soft roles contribute to that perception.

To be honest, hard roles are, to me, one of the key pillars of the entire RPG genre, much like how loot or stats are. A RPG is all about, as the name of the genre implies, choosing a role (Role Playing Game), a theme, a specific style or attitude. When everything feels same-y, the fantasy appeal and the charm of playing with a role is lost. Of course, that’s my opinion. You may not value that as much as I do.

However, will all being said, I don’t mean that I wish to see the “holy trinity”. There’s plenty of different roles you can make beyond healer or tank. GW1, for example, did not have a tank role, but the heal role was divided into two (healing and protection), and there was crowd controler/ disrupter (mesmers in general), minion masters or spirit turrets (great to prevent enemies from getting close to the back line, or to provoke aggro), general support (paragons especially), and a distinction between aoe nukers and single target burst builds (so it wasn’t all “dps”).

If the new content is done right, anet can potentially add plenty of new, distinct, fun roles to the game. Ventari offers an unique and different healing playstyle. Chronomancer offers time-based support for bursting, defense and general cooldown utility. Revenant’s Mallyx will be able to turn the enemy’s conditions against themselves. Etc. And all those “hard roles” are more interesting that way. They wouldn’t be half as interesting if they were just “stack might, vulnerability and fury, dps, use the occasional block or reflect” that current builds seem to generally fall to.

As long as five players who are friends and want to play together and all want to do the same role have the chance to complete the content without changing to a different role, then I don’t care how they change it up. Be it they all want to play DPS or they all want to play Support or Control or whatever.

I don’t want to have to wait for someone in a particular build to show up in order to be able to do content.

Some people really enjoy soloing content. Add hard roles to the game and you destroy their fun. Because they can no longer do it alone. They have to bring others.

you end up sacrificing build diversity and encounter complexity, a ton of what makes a an instance fun, so that any composition of builds can complete it. its just not worth it. gw2 already has plenty of qol stuff that easily lets you change builds. beating this kind of content is like a consolation prize. anyone could have done it and if you actually ran with an exellent comp, it would be brainless to complete.

the game needs to expect an excellent comp to balance accordingly.

i’m for trinity back into gw 2 is way better to do cooler content !

IndigoSundown.5419:

As to your last point, see my second response, above. Also, what I find interesting in trinity games can be done in GW2 without putting hard roles in. The roles themselves, though, are boring.

Who knows. ANet just buffed healing. Maybe they’ll provide mobs in the mentioned “challenging content” that require people to use every tool the game provides. I’d rather see that than a return to an older paradigm. I also think that if dungeons had seen development, and were as hard now as they were at launch, we’d see a lot less of these “meta is boring” arguments. The fact is that the meta is boring because it’s the easiest way to do the dungeon.

how do you define every tool? force everyone to take defensive skills? how? if you take all offensive skills and use them all, is t that still using “every tool?” if you force people to play more defensively, isnt that taking some degree of freedom away also?

meta is boring is because the easiest way to do a dungeon is too easy. thats a problem. if you are a player looking forma challenge every now and then, do you want a game thats only challenging if you handicap yourself?

even at launch when not everyone wore zerk and the dungeons were still difficult, i think they were still quite boring. the extent of team coordination was moving together and stacking. otherwise everyone just ran around attacking the boss. i just dont see a way around this type of tedium without mechanics around specific roles. i dont think tanks will ever work well in gw2 since there isnt a traditional aggro system. healers will never be as important since everyone has a heal and no one tanks. at the very least, control should be emphasized, along with the 2 different types of damage. small ai elements and mechanics would strongly encourage some specialization in a party. lets say a boss needs to be cced but aggroes on the ccer and enrages. this boss also has burst phases. this would strongly encourage defensive ccers and glassy dps.

none of this needs to be fundamentally change the game, rather, i think every facet of the game other than pve already has defined roles. the outlier here is the dungeons where everyone runs zerk.

Paprikaspice.8462:

Seera.5916:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Seera.5916:

I just don’t want the method chosen to be adding hard roles to the game.

Hard roles is a wonderful thing, if done right. They are usually thematically tight and easy to grasp, unlike soft roles, which, at first glance, all look “same-y”. There’s a reason for why a game like GW2 is criticized for being “all dps” or having “no build diversity”: because soft roles contribute to that perception.

To be honest, hard roles are, to me, one of the key pillars of the entire RPG genre, much like how loot or stats are. A RPG is all about, as the name of the genre implies, choosing a role (Role Playing Game), a theme, a specific style or attitude. When everything feels same-y, the fantasy appeal and the charm of playing with a role is lost. Of course, that’s my opinion. You may not value that as much as I do.

However, will all being said, I don’t mean that I wish to see the “holy trinity”. There’s plenty of different roles you can make beyond healer or tank. GW1, for example, did not have a tank role, but the heal role was divided into two (healing and protection), and there was crowd controler/ disrupter (mesmers in general), minion masters or spirit turrets (great to prevent enemies from getting close to the back line, or to provoke aggro), general support (paragons especially), and a distinction between aoe nukers and single target burst builds (so it wasn’t all “dps”).

If the new content is done right, anet can potentially add plenty of new, distinct, fun roles to the game. Ventari offers an unique and different healing playstyle. Chronomancer offers time-based support for bursting, defense and general cooldown utility. Revenant’s Mallyx will be able to turn the enemy’s conditions against themselves. Etc. And all those “hard roles” are more interesting that way. They wouldn’t be half as interesting if they were just “stack might, vulnerability and fury, dps, use the occasional block or reflect” that current builds seem to generally fall to.

As long as five players who are friends and want to play together and all want to do the same role have the chance to complete the content without changing to a different role, then I don’t care how they change it up. Be it they all want to play DPS or they all want to play Support or Control or whatever.

I don’t want to have to wait for someone in a particular build to show up in order to be able to do content.

Some people really enjoy soloing content. Add hard roles to the game and you destroy their fun. Because they can no longer do it alone. They have to bring others.

you end up sacrificing build diversity and encounter complexity, a ton of what makes a an instance fun, so that any composition of builds can complete it. its just not worth it. gw2 already has plenty of qol stuff that easily lets you change builds. beating this kind of content is like a consolation prize. anyone could have done it and if you actually ran with an exellent comp, it would be brainless to complete.

the game needs to expect an excellent comp to balance accordingly.

But I don’t want to have to create and carry around multiple sets of gear to fit into different roles.

I don’t want to have to wait for someone who fits a specific role to want to party with my group in order to have a shot to complete content. I would not have bought this game at all if they had marketed this game as having that requirement. I will not play nor support this game should they move into this direction. And I imagine a lot of players are in the same boat I am.

And I don’t see how not having a hard trinity prevents a game from designing complex encounters. I really don’t. So again, I’d rather they change the game mechanics to allow for more roles being suitable for the average PUG meta rather than create hard roles where people are prevented from completing content if they don’t have people in specific builds.

If I die, I want it to be primarily because I made a mistake. Not because the healer made a mistake. Or the Tank made a mistake. I want it to be because I made a mistake. I want to be able to heal myself. I want to be able to take a hit myself. I want to be able to dish out damage myself. I don’t want to have to rely on someone else to heal me. I don’t want to have to rely on someone else to take a hit for me. I don’t want to have to rely on someone else to dish out damage for me.

Paprikaspice.8462:

the game needs to expect an excellent comp to balance accordingly.

i agree that instanced PvE content needs to be balanced around an excellent comp (meta builds), because if you balance for 20 different stat combinations and include stuff like nomads, the instanced PvE content will always be a joke for the above average player. but i dont agree that the excellent comp is a trinity comp.

you dont need a trinity to design complex encounters and everything you do in a trinity game can be done in gw2 without a trinity, because each player in the party contributes to everything, instead of having dedicated roles.

you dont really have to be a genius to understand how gw2 works, why its great that way and why a trinity or hard roles or w/e you call it will not make it more interesting at all. if anything, it will make things less complex, easier and take away depth.

Seera.5916:

As long as five players who are friends and want to play together and all want to do the same role have the chance to complete the content without changing to a different role, then I don’t care how they change it up. Be it they all want to play DPS or they all want to play Support or Control or whatever.

I don’t want to have to wait for someone in a particular build to show up in order to be able to do content.

Some people really enjoy soloing content. Add hard roles to the game and you destroy their fun. Because they can no longer do it alone. They have to bring others.

There is a limit to this. Five dedicated healer builds for example, that sacrifice essentially all of their DPS and defense to be as efficient at healing as possible.

Five characters with build like that should not be able to deal with all content. If you make all the content such that any and all builds – and combinations of builds – can drudge through it, you will sacrifice far too much.

If you take it to extreme, you’d have to give up all time based combat challenges, all ‘hold the line’ type challenges, and a lot of other mechanics. Taken to the wider scale, most – if not all – of the current world boss fights that are even a little challenging, would be impossible.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Incorrect. Anyone who likes laissez-faire, anything goes, FFA runs loses out. They’d be saddled with needing a tank and healer. Furthermore, for the meta to accept that tank and healer, then those players will need to have a build that works within the heal/damage formula. Also, once the heal/damage formula is tweaked for tanks and healers to be required, where does that leave DPS? Do they need to perform to a certain level before whatever resources the tank/healer expend to do their thing run out? Where’s the freedom and diversity if that happens?

Style of grouping is a much different beast than style of play. The “group” is not something that feels and wants. It is the individuals in that group. Thus, when dealing with balance the only thing that is important is that each person’s individual playstyle is reinforced. Grouping is a convenience thing, and is basically the LFG tool and guild chat.

Likewise, players are already losing out on grouping convenience if they aren’t running GC gear.

IndigoSundown.5419:

And still will be no matter what design decisions are made. It’s just that it might not be focused at an individual who wants to be a tank but who toes the mark on build and tactics. It will still be focused on anyone who dares to deviate from the accepted. Changing a game mechanic would just shift the focus of internet exclusion behavior, it’s not going to get rid of it.

More play preferences would be accepted. Ergo, less hate. The ire would be directed at individual incompetence, instead of widespread class systems like it is now.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Why does every gear prefix have to be useful in a dungeon meta? They’re not all useful in the WvW meta. In other games, tanks don’t typically wear their tank stuff in PvP — at least the ones I know didn’t once dual spec came in. Why can’t a prefix exist in what’s been designed as a free-for-all game that only gets used in one mode, or only by certain players who want certain things?

They have to be useful because then people who like that particular style of play will receive less hate for playing it, and will have more fun. This will also draw in the crowd who wants a holy trinity and thinks that it is the only proper way to play the game. The subject here is player appeal and marketing. The balance of gear types is actually quite similar to the balance of classes as a whole: people want to use their class in a particular mode of play. People want to use their gear in a particular mode of play. This is an issue for all game modes, not just dungeons.

Make no mistake, I don’t like the idea of hard roles. A lot of players flock to this game specifically because it doesn’t have hard roles. But evaluate it from the financial prospect, and you’ll see several things. First, that there is a very large market of players who either want to play the trinity or can’t fathom a system unlike it. Second is, while the trinity system does have a set of problems, the current system in GW2 has community and mechanical issues that would not be present in the trinity system, or would be more easily fixed in a trinity system. Third is that these players and their parents have delicious dollars. Anet is hedging its bets on the idea that players are tired of how formulaic MMOs are, and designed itself to be contrary on several aspects. The argument to go with the flow can always be made.

I would like to see “back-packs” available at the start of a dungeon that would allow different characters to fulfil different roles. I.e. a healer backpack that gives you 5 utility skills, or a tank backpack that gives you utility skills to taunt, protect etc. That way you can have any class play any role.

Either that or have a specialization trait line for each class that provides a healer/tank/damage utility role and skills.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Style of grouping is a much different beast than style of play. The “group” is not something that feels and wants. It is the individuals in that group. Thus, when dealing with balance the only thing that is important is that each person’s individual playstyle is reinforced. Grouping is a convenience thing, and is basically the LFG tool and guild chat.

Likewise, players are already losing out on grouping convenience if they aren’t running GC gear.

Totally not my point. The same design forces that support the “zerk only” mentality support the laid-back “3 P/P thieves, a FT Engie and a bearbow” groups and any other combo you’d care to think up. Most of those players aren’t coming to the forums to defend their preferences. Instead, we see only the trinity wannas, the theory guys and the dungeon runners. Killing zerk-only kills those groups, also.

More play preferences would be accepted. Ergo, less hate. The ire would be directed at individual incompetence, instead of widespread class systems like it is now.

Exclusion directed only at individuals? Not even close. There would still be hate at builds, gear choices and professions.

They have to be useful because then people who like that particular style of play will receive less hate for playing it, and will have more fun. This will also draw in the crowd who wants a holy trinity and thinks that it is the only proper way to play the game. The subject here is player appeal and marketing. The balance of gear types is actually quite similar to the balance of classes as a whole: people want to use their class in a particular mode of play. People want to use their gear in a particular mode of play. This is an issue for all game modes, not just dungeons.

Make no mistake, I don’t like the idea of hard roles. A lot of players flock to this game specifically because it doesn’t have hard roles. But evaluate it from the financial prospect, and you’ll see several things. First, that there is a very large market of players who either want to play the trinity or can’t fathom a system unlike it. Second is, while the trinity system does have a set of problems, the current system in GW2 has community and mechanical issues that would not be present in the trinity system, or would be more easily fixed in a trinity system. Third is that these players and their parents have delicious dollars. Anet is hedging its bets on the idea that players are tired of how formulaic MMOs are, and designed itself to be contrary on several aspects. The argument to go with the flow can always be made.

One thing ANet did right for their success, imo, is to decide not to emulate the 500 pound MMO gorilla. Emulation has not worked out so well for many developers over the last eight years. The traditional MMO market has only so many players. ANet chose to try to draw in those disaffected with the old standby.

Would they like to draw everyone? Sure. However, they can’t, because one big blob of players want the exact opposite of another big blob. Anytime a thread pops up asking for feature X from old game W, be it trinity, mounts, or what-have-you, a sizable demographic chimes in in opposition. I see about as many anti posts as I see pro in these threads.

Now, is it possible to move the game in a direction where both pro and anti demographics will be pleased. Maybe. I’m sure ANet hopes so. I think they’re trying to pull it off. However, I don’t think they’ll just willy-nilly throw trinity in, though.

+1 +1 +1

Although the idea of no forced roles being something to admire anet for trying, its time we realise its failure.

Its next to impossible to design something that is hard enough for hardcore players to be happily challenged with WHILE also making the required level of entry for casual players.

Seera.5916:

No to required roles. I do not want to have to wait for a player who has a specific build and is skilled in their role in order to play the game.

I want to be able to group with my friends and we all play the characters and builds we want to play. Not have to worry about finding the content in the game that does require our gear set up or having to have someone play a character or change build to something they’re not wanting to play.

So you want easy content then? Go open world or current dungeons for your content then and again, tell me they are fun enough for you.

Im sorry but any decent enough player should be more than willing to research a role and build their char for the content and anything other zerk is cheap for stats anyway. The amazing thing about guild wars 2 is most classes are capable of filling most roles if they are built right, so therefore by forcing roles, you arnt waiting for the right player who happens to have the right type of player, your waiting for a player who is willing to listen and communicate with the group in building their ele how the group needs in order to clear difficult content. Thats the trade off and it certainly is a much smaller trade off than typical MMOs where you are locked into building one role for your character.