Guild Wars 2

Problem 1: It’s Completely Expansion Exclusive
Negative Incentive: Why Not to Make Masteries Expansion Exclusive

TL;DR, The masteries associated with the core game should not be locked behind the expansion, but given to any owner of Guild Wars 2. This functions as both an incentive to get the expansion for the cooler Heart of Thorns part, and a way to keep the community together even when it “splits” over the expansion.

Problem 2: Mastery Track Tiers aren’t Horizontal
Levels by Any Other Name: Mastery Track Tiers

TL;DR, Masteries are vertical progression, just like the existing leveling system is. Calling it “not the typical” is disingenuous and builds hype that is bound to get disappointed. But with a few simple changes, it can shift from raw vertical to almost horizontal, with added benefits.

I dont see either of these as a problem, since we dont know how the masterys in core world will affect it, we cant say it will split the community and i severly dubt they would implement it as a way to segregate players that go back to core world from the ones that are stuck there.

Based on what they have written, that is exactly what is likely to happen, and there hasn’t been a clarification given to allay that fear. I hope I’m proven wrong, or that ArenaNet changes their mind on it, but as it stands, that’s what has been said.

ok what have they written other then that you will get masterys in the core world and what other lines have they said other then the precursor ones.

Do you with a straight face say that people being able to craft all the legendarys we have atm will make them not play with the people who cant craft them?

Masteries are mostly for expansion content. Why give masteries to people that can’t even use them? And I don’t even get your second problem. They let you fight things you couldn’t fight before, so opening up new areas. And giving your lore and new places to explore. I don’t see how in the hell you can equate that to levels. Your stats won’t change. Once you can fight the new monsters, your damage will be the same.

Linken.6345:

ok what have they written other then that you will get masterys in the core world and what other lines have they said other then the precursor ones.

Do you with a straight face say that people being able to craft all the legendarys we have atm will make them not play with the people who cant craft them?

Masteries will be available in the core world, but based on what information we have in that vein (which at present is purely that blog post), accessing the mastery system period requires Heart of Thorns. So yes, I am straight-faced saying that it would be a bad thing.

Ralanost.8913:

Masteries are mostly for expansion content. Why give masteries to people that can’t even use them?

Masteries are exclusive to region, including the core game region. So they are very usable by people who only have the core game.

They let you fight things you couldn’t fight before, so opening up new areas. And giving your lore and new places to explore. I don’t see how in the hell you can equate that to levels. Your stats won’t change. Once you can fight the new monsters, your damage will be the same.

…except where Mordrem armor nerfs your damage output into the ground of irrelevance. That’s an example that’s already been stated by the developers. It doesn’t have to be raw stat numbers to still be vertical progression.

TaCktiX.6729:

Linken.6345:

ok what have they written other then that you will get masterys in the core world and what other lines have they said other then the precursor ones.

Do you with a straight face say that people being able to craft all the legendarys we have atm will make them not play with the people who cant craft them?

Masteries will be available in the core world, but based on what information we have in that vein (which at present is purely that blog post), accessing the mastery system period requires Heart of Thorns. So yes, I am straight-faced saying that it would be a bad thing.

Ralanost.8913:

Masteries are mostly for expansion content. Why give masteries to people that can’t even use them?

Masteries are exclusive to region, including the core game region. So they are very usable by people who only have the core game.

They let you fight things you couldn’t fight before, so opening up new areas. And giving your lore and new places to explore. I don’t see how in the hell you can equate that to levels. Your stats won’t change. Once you can fight the new monsters, your damage will be the same.

…except where Mordrem armor nerfs your damage output into the ground of irrelevance. That’s an example that’s already been stated by the developers. It doesn’t have to be raw stat numbers to still be vertical progression.

You are cherry picking. Some parts of the mastery system will work in some parts of the current world. Definitely not the whole system and definitely not everywhere. Probably just in the new adventures, which will be locked into the expansion.

And you aren’t getting it with the Mordrem. You simply can’t kill them until you get the mastery unlock. It really is no different than finding a key and opening a door, getting a glider to get to a new ledge or learning a language to open a sealed passageway. What is impossible made normal, what is impassable made traversable. Leveling is a gradual increase in your abilities, not flat out unlocking new areas. You gradually get better and can eventually tackle larger problems because you have higher stats.

what i tried to ask you was what of the things they said will be avaliable in the core world would make people stop playing with eachother expasion or not.

The only mastery they said so far is the legendary precursor mastery that will be available in the core world.

To little information to doom and gloom like you do bud.

I need to see this in practice before I’ll comment. Always subject to change before release and all. . . .

Linken.6345:

ok what have they written other then that you will get masterys in the core world and what other lines have they said other then the precursor ones.

Do you with a straight face say that people being able to craft all the legendarys we have atm will make them not play with the people who cant craft them?

I dont have a legendary , Heck i dont want one either . And its a slap to the face that the people who worked their butts off getting the precursors and the legendary’s now will feel cheated out of time , effort and money. Way to go and shoot yourself in the foot A-net ; People are gonna be all upset about it . I mean really i don’t care much , i dont even want a legendary atm and probably wont because im all eh toward it . Its cool but its not like the do or die type thing . But it will cause a rift in the player base , as well as the community .

TaCktiX.6729:

Problem 2: Mastery Track Tiers aren’t Horizontal
Levels by Any Other Name: Mastery Track Tiers

TL;DR, Masteries are vertical progression, just like the existing leveling system is. Calling it “not the typical” is disingenuous and builds hype that is bound to get disappointed. But with a few simple changes, it can shift from raw vertical to almost horizontal, with added benefits.

I don’t see a problem with vertical progression as long as it doesn’t ruin all your current progress.

Linken.6345:

what i tried to ask you was what of the things they said will be avaliable in the core world would make people stop playing with eachother expasion or not.

The only mastery they said so far is the legendary precursor mastery that will be available in the core world.

To little information to doom and gloom like you do bud.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

I need to see this in practice before I’ll comment. Always subject to change before release and all. . . .

My timing is deliberate. There are three possible scenarios:

1. ArenaNet clarifies that what I’m worried about isn’t really an issue (core game masteries are for everyone, escalating experience rewards exist due to the endgame difficulty spike in the Heart of Maguuma). Just a case of incomplete wording.
2. ArenaNet is doing both, and their decision stands period. Not what I’d prefer, but they’re the developer, not me.
3. ArenaNet was considering both, but things are fluid enough right now that changing it to something else is a simple matter. This third option gets much harder as the expansion nears release. It’s the sort of last-second-fix things that the player base has gone torch-and-pitchfork over in the past six months.

In every case, me bringing this up can only help the overall development process, either by improving communication (first and second scenarios) or by having enough development time to adjust to something they’ve taken under consideration (third scenario).

Waiting until it’s in our hands is the wrong time to give feedback on a core system of the game.

Ralanost.8913:

You are cherry picking. Some parts of the mastery system will work in some parts of the current world. Definitely not the whole system and definitely not everywhere. Probably just in the new adventures, which will be locked into the expansion.

I’m not cherry picking when that’s one of very few mentioned examples thus far. I can only feedback on what I know, not what I don’t.

And you aren’t getting it with the Mordrem. You simply can’t kill them until you get the mastery unlock. It really is no different than finding a key and opening a door, getting a glider to get to a new ledge or learning a language to open a sealed passageway. What is impossible made normal, what is impassable made traversable. Leveling is a gradual increase in your abilities, not flat out unlocking new areas. You gradually get better and can eventually tackle larger problems because you have higher stats.

Vertical progression does not have to be pure numbers, it’s just most classically been applied with pure numbers. In this instance, someone without the “abilities and bonuses” will have severe difficulty (if not being outright impossible) completing the content. That’s by design, and that’s also vertical.

Horizontal progression is optional, and while it may make some things easier, it is not required to accomplish tasks. Vertical outright blocks you, either by raising the difficulty threshold to unreasonable levels, or making it impossible.

The former is not supported by the examples that have been provided, nor by the overall framework of the mastery system. The latter is.

Thornwolf.9721:

Linken.6345:

ok what have they written other then that you will get masterys in the core world and what other lines have they said other then the precursor ones.

Do you with a straight face say that people being able to craft all the legendarys we have atm will make them not play with the people who cant craft them?

I dont have a legendary , Heck i dont want one either . And its a slap to the face that the people who worked their butts off getting the precursors and the legendary’s now will feel cheated out of time , effort and money. Way to go and shoot yourself in the foot A-net ; People are gonna be all upset about it . I mean really i don’t care much , i dont even want a legendary atm and probably wont because im all eh toward it . Its cool but its not like the do or die type thing . But it will cause a rift in the player base , as well as the community .

You mean all those people that got pre due to luck or crafting alot of rares and dumping them into mystic toilet?
Well now you can go out and do a collection to get it.
It might not be as easy as you think it is take a look at the treasure hunter collection i dubt it will be easier then that.

And you still have to work kitten all the other stuff just like everyone else to finaly make that legendary weapon

Lol. Another thread of complaining about not giving everything in a paid expansion free to players who don’t want to pay for said expansion.

Listen to yourselves for a while and try to find the error in your logic.

Linken.6345:

Thornwolf.9721:

Linken.6345:

ok what have they written other then that you will get masterys in the core world and what other lines have they said other then the precursor ones.

Do you with a straight face say that people being able to craft all the legendarys we have atm will make them not play with the people who cant craft them?

I dont have a legendary , Heck i dont want one either . And its a slap to the face that the people who worked their butts off getting the precursors and the legendary’s now will feel cheated out of time , effort and money. Way to go and shoot yourself in the foot A-net ; People are gonna be all upset about it . I mean really i don’t care much , i dont even want a legendary atm and probably wont because im all eh toward it . Its cool but its not like the do or die type thing . But it will cause a rift in the player base , as well as the community .

You mean all those people that got pre due to luck or crafting alot of rares and dumping them into mystic toilet?
Well now you can go out and do a collection to get it.
It might not be as easy as you think it is take a look at the treasure hunter collection i dubt it will be easier then that.

And you still have to work kitten all the other stuff just like everyone else to finaly make that legendary weapon

You don’t have to do anything , That’s what people misunderstand about the issue . I don’t care about it mainly because at this time , there is not a legendary i find attractive to my eye yet . Im hoping they come out with one along with some sick armor’s to match all this cool weaponry we are obtaining . I just feel bad about the people who already have one , and could of just had a fun challenging way to do it . Rather than spend gold an materials making the weapons to throw into the mystic toilet

Tom Gore.4035:

Lol. Another thread of complaining about not giving everything in a paid expansion free to players who don’t want to pay for said expansion.

Listen to yourselves for a while and try to find the error in your logic.

I have listened to myself, and if you wish to complain about my perspective, I suggest reading the full, linked post. I’m not asking for “everything free”.

TaCktiX.6729:

Tom Gore.4035:

Lol. Another thread of complaining about not giving everything in a paid expansion free to players who don’t want to pay for said expansion.

Listen to yourselves for a while and try to find the error in your logic.

I have listened to myself, and if you wish to complain about my perspective, I suggest reading the full, linked post. I’m not asking for “everything free”.

No but you are asking to remove parts of the paid expansion and put it into the core game so that you could find more excuses of not paying for the expansion.

Seriously, for any given paid expansion, the players who are actually interested and invested in the game are going to buy it anyway. The small fraction of players who are not willing to pay are not very invested into the game anyway. It’s highly unlikely they would buy the expansion even if they were given some bits of it free, and if they’re unwilling to pay for the expansion, they’re also likely unwilling to invest any money into the game altogether (via gem store).

Give me one solid reason why a developer would want to make buying a paid expansion less lucrative by offering bits of it free to everyone? In a game that has no monthly subscription? In a game that has a very fair and mostly cosmetic cash shop?

It’s pretty clear that if Anet would be getting enough of “voluntary revenue” from the playerbase, i.e. cash shop purchases with real money, they would not be releasing a paid expansion at all.

Tom Gore.4035:

Snip

I’m buying the expansion personally, but again I must stress you are attacking a straw man and I doubt you read the post I wrote.

TaCktiX.6729:

Tom Gore.4035:

Snip

I’m buying the expansion personally, but again I must stress you are attacking a straw man and I doubt you read the post I wrote.

I did read the first post, although it was so long I admit I didn’t read it all in detail. I disagree with you. I think with a paid expansion, as much as possible should be locked behind the paywall to entice as many customers as possible to buy the expansion.

As I mentioned, this opinion applies solely to games without monthly subscriptions. If there was one, I would be very careful of putting things behind a paid expansion, as I would then risk losing customers who are currently paying me.

In GW2’s case, as I stated, I believe the ones unwilling to pay for the expansion are also those unwilling to pay for gems (with real money). Their only value for the game now after their initial purchase is that they boost up the population, which is always good for an MMO. Anet’s goal is to move as much of that population as possible to the paid expansion so that not only they will get lots of revenue, also lots of population on the new maps which are locked behind the paywall.

Ralanost.8913:

You are cherry picking.

The masteries are something game wide. They even said they would introduce a system that automatically switches your mastery track when you go between HoT zones and old zones.
So there will be some masteries that only apply to HoT, but most are general purpose and can be earned and used in the “old world”.

That being said I don’t have a problem with masteries being expansion content. Provided it doesn’t make you stronger, giving an easier way to acquire precursors is not stronger it is convenience.

Also the Mastery system replaces skill points when you hit lv80, meaning experience after lv80 awards mastery experience. It would seem unfair for non-HoT players to also lose the acquisition of skill points, as for them that would leave no purpose for post-80 experience.

Terrahero.9358:

Also the Mastery system replaces skill points when you hit lv80, meaning experience after lv80 awards mastery experience. It would seem unfair for non-HoT players to also lose the acquisition of skill points, as for them that would leave no purpose for post-80 experience.

Their purpose post-80 should be to buy the expansion. And it looks like Anet also thinks that way.

Tom Gore.4035:

I did read the first post, although it was so long I admit I didn’t read it all in detail. I disagree with you. I think with a paid expansion, as much as possible should be locked behind the paywall to entice as many customers as possible to buy the expansion.

As I mentioned, this opinion applies solely to games without monthly subscriptions. If there was one, I would be very careful of putting things behind a paid expansion, as I would then risk losing customers who are currently paying me.

In GW2’s case, as I stated, I believe the ones unwilling to pay for the expansion are also those unwilling to pay for gems (with real money). Their only value for the game now after their initial purchase is that they boost up the population, which is always good for an MMO. Anet’s goal is to move as much of that population as possible to the paid expansion so that not only they will get lots of revenue, also lots of population on the new maps which are locked behind the paywall.

One of the key things I said late in the post is the community aspect. ArenaNet is rightfully fiercely protective of the community. Splitting it on a core system should be kept to an absolute minimum.

Hence, my suggestion that only the release core masteries be available to all. All expansion masteries and any future masteries get the lock, meaning that as time goes on the enticement to buy only grows, while at the same time not splitting the core gameplay experience for the playerbase.

Also, based on the announced feature list, the mastery system is unique in this problem (or perhaps guild halls, too). I’m not suggesting a chain reaction of “little tastes,” only keeping the experience after level 80 similar for all players at the basic level.

Again, from my own experience, whether you’re right or wrong about any theory, ArenaNet won’t say anything until it’s done.

So speculation is pointless. Because, again, they won’t say anything about something not yet released.

That’s just the way they do around these parts.

I’m alright with that. I’d rather the feedback exist, even if in hindsight it’s irrelevant, rather than it never be made because details to fully support it weren’t around. Think of it as a contingency plan for feedback.

TaCktiX.6729:

Tom Gore.4035:

I did read the first post, although it was so long I admit I didn’t read it all in detail. I disagree with you. I think with a paid expansion, as much as possible should be locked behind the paywall to entice as many customers as possible to buy the expansion.

As I mentioned, this opinion applies solely to games without monthly subscriptions. If there was one, I would be very careful of putting things behind a paid expansion, as I would then risk losing customers who are currently paying me.

In GW2’s case, as I stated, I believe the ones unwilling to pay for the expansion are also those unwilling to pay for gems (with real money). Their only value for the game now after their initial purchase is that they boost up the population, which is always good for an MMO. Anet’s goal is to move as much of that population as possible to the paid expansion so that not only they will get lots of revenue, also lots of population on the new maps which are locked behind the paywall.

One of the key things I said late in the post is the community aspect. ArenaNet is rightfully fiercely protective of the community. Splitting it on a core system should be kept to an absolute minimum.

Hence, my suggestion that only the release core masteries be available to all. All expansion masteries and any future masteries get the lock, meaning that as time goes on the enticement to buy only grows, while at the same time not splitting the core gameplay experience for the playerbase.

Also, based on the announced feature list, the mastery system is unique in this problem (or perhaps guild halls, too). I’m not suggesting a chain reaction of “little tastes,” only keeping the experience after level 80 similar for all players at the basic level.

It’s a two-edged sword. Giving less incentive for players to buy the expansion will also act as a fracturing element.

Well it could work, as a “gate theory”. It could also backfire, in a way that people who are on the edge don’t buy the expansion because they don’t feel compelled to do it, and then quit playing and never get that “itch” enough.

I unfortunately don’t have any solid statistics, but I’m guessing that an overwhelmingly large portion of the expansion buyers will buy it on day 1 and the following ~1 month. As Anet I would want to maximize that hype and “frenzy” as much as possible.

TaCktiX.6729:

I’m alright with that. I’d rather the feedback exist, even if in hindsight it’s irrelevant, rather than it never be made because details to fully support it weren’t around. Think of it as a contingency plan for feedback.

Agree to disagree. After the whole ’There’s not an expansion coming, there’s an expansion coming’ nonsense, I’ll not get caught in another debate without concrete and, most importantly, current proof of said subject.

The overwhelming, and continued, silence on those topics says enough.

And I’ll leave it at that.

Tom Gore.4035:

It’s a two-edged sword. Giving less incentive for players to buy the expansion will also act as a fracturing element.

Well it could work, as a “gate theory”. It could also backfire, in a way that people who are on the edge don’t buy the expansion because they don’t feel compelled to do it, and then quit playing and never get that “itch” enough.

I unfortunately don’t have any solid statistics, but I’m guessing that an overwhelmingly large portion of the expansion buyers will buy it on day 1 and the following ~1 month. As Anet I would want to maximize that hype and “frenzy” as much as possible.

Agreed on the two-edged sword aspect. The problem is that neither of us know which edge is sharper to ArenaNet. They do, I assume.

Either way, thank you for the good points. It’s refreshing not to get a one-sentence writeoff.

TaCktiX.6729:

Tom Gore.4035:

It’s a two-edged sword. Giving less incentive for players to buy the expansion will also act as a fracturing element.

Well it could work, as a “gate theory”. It could also backfire, in a way that people who are on the edge don’t buy the expansion because they don’t feel compelled to do it, and then quit playing and never get that “itch” enough.

I unfortunately don’t have any solid statistics, but I’m guessing that an overwhelmingly large portion of the expansion buyers will buy it on day 1 and the following ~1 month. As Anet I would want to maximize that hype and “frenzy” as much as possible.

Agreed on the two-edged sort aspect. The problem is that neither of us know which edge is sharper to ArenaNet. They do, I assume.

Either way, thank you for the good points. It’s refreshing not to get a one-sentence writeoff.

Well Anet doesn’t know either, so they’ll have to do what they think will bring them the best results. At least they know what they consider to be the “best results” when looking at revenue vs. player count, etc.

I believe they’re making the right choice. In a non-sub game like this they really need to get as many people buying the expansion as possible, and as soon as possible to avoid the playerbase to be split too long and too much.

Considering that every content update up until the expansion has been free they really care about not splitting the customer base. Expansions do that whatever they do, so I guess they’ll rather get everyone hopping “to the other side” as soon as possible.

As a related note, they haven’t published their beta testing plans yet. Maybe we will all get to try out the expansion stuff before buying?

I sure hope so. I, uh, might want to try out some of that challenging group content coughraidscough.

Is this just self-blog promotion?

One could of course wait until we actually have an official beta and can see how the system works before complaining about it.

ArenaNet does seems to do real betas after all, so if people find things that doesn’t work out well they will change it.

I would like to have a discussion with the people most likely to care. Due to my typical length of posting (both linked posts are short for me), using the Guild Wars 2 forums requires me to break it into multiple pieces. So rather than create a massive wall of text here, I put it on my own blog where I have greater control over how it displays.

I disagree with your definitions of Horizontal and Vertical Progression.

After all, vertical progression can be specific and limited in scope (Agony Resistance has no place outside of Fractals), while horizontal progression can have arbritrary goalposts as well (Achievement Points being available practically everywhere, and them being the gate for Zenith skins).

A better summary of HP and VP is:

• VP is power gains (stats) – You have a Sword of Infinity and you complete content to get a Sword of Infinity + 1, that’s vertical progression.
• HP is option gains (skills, skins, titles etc) – You need a skill that Cripples, you complete content and unlock a skill such as that. Providing it’s not statistically more powerful, it’s horiontal progression.

Not only that, leveling isn’t strictly vertical progression; it’s a progression mechanic that contains both vertical and horizontal progression:

• Vertical Progression – Stat increases through leveling and Trait line bonuses.
• Horizontal Progression – Traits (at level 60, the second tier opens up giving the player more options) and Builds (at certain levels players get access to weapon, utility and elite skills, weapon swap, etc) – in other words, options and tools.

Overall, the Mastery system is an example of Horizontal Progression; you gain Mastery Points and the player then has options and tools opened up to them based on how many mastery tracks that player has and how far they’ve progressed along the track. Just because the tracks require progressively more Mastery points and XP, it doesn’t make it vertical progression.

Where the Mastery system may contain Vertical Progression is the individual Mastery tracks themselves.

For example, they mentioned bark stripping in the PoI:

• If that ‘bark stripping’ is a passive stat (i.e. x% bark penetration) that grows the more you progress it, it’s VP.
• If it’s a skill you unlock, it’s HP. It’s a tool that doesn’t necessarily make you more powerful stat-wise, but it’s a tool to use against certain creatures.
• If it’s a skill you unlock that gets more powerful the further you progress the track, in which case it’s an example of both.

One final note – since we’re cherry picking quotes, this quote:

Masteries will give you the tools you need to excel in these fights. Hunt new enemies, master abilities to defeat champions, and become more deadly against the new creatures waiting in the jungle. (emphasis added)

could also easily be read as:

Masteries will give you the tools you need to excel in these fights. Hunt new enemies, master abilities to defeat champions, and become more deadly against the new creatures waiting in the jungle. (emphasis added)

suggesting that while you can complete these fights, unlocking these tools will make the fights easier.

All good points. Let’s hope that the “middle option” is what’s gone to each time.

Tom Gore.4035:

Terrahero.9358:

Also the Mastery system replaces skill points when you hit lv80, meaning experience after lv80 awards mastery experience. It would seem unfair for non-HoT players to also lose the acquisition of skill points, as for them that would leave no purpose for post-80 experience.

Their purpose post-80 should be to buy the expansion. And it looks like Anet also thinks that way.

Wait, you’re going to severely kitten their means of level-80 character progression (acquiring skill points, to buy traits, skills they didn’t get while leveling up) and a major reason to run dungeons (they aren’t running them for gear, the drops are the worst I’ve seen in any MMORPG to date – “raid” the TP instead) for those players simply to make them buy the expansion?

I’m sorry, do you actually believe what you’re saying, or are you just maintain the status quo elitist attitude that seems to infest these forums?

TheDaiBish.9735:

I disagree with your definitions of Horizontal and Vertical Progression.

After all, vertical progression can be specific and limited in scope (Agony Resistance has no place outside of Fractals), while horizontal progression can have arbritrary goalposts as well (Achievement Points being available practically everywhere, and them being the gate for Zenith skins).

A better summary of HP and VP is:

• VP is power gains (stats) – You have a Sword of Infinity and you complete content to get a Sword of Infinity + 1, that’s vertical progression.
• HP is option gains (skills, skins, titles etc) – You need a skill that Cripples, you complete content and unlock a skill such as that. Providing it’s not statistically more powerful, it’s horiontal progression.

Not only that, leveling isn’t strictly vertical progression; it’s a progression mechanic that contains both vertical and horizontal progression:

• Vertical Progression – Stat increases through leveling and Trait line bonuses.
• Horizontal Progression – Traits (at level 60, the second tier opens up giving the player more options) and Builds (at certain levels players get access to weapon, utility and elite skills, weapon swap, etc) – in other words, options and tools.

Overall, the Mastery system is an example of Horizontal Progression; you gain Mastery Points and the player then has options and tools opened up to them based on how many mastery tracks that player has and how far they’ve progressed along the track. Just because the tracks require progressively more Mastery points and XP, it doesn’t make it vertical progression.

Where the Mastery system may contain Vertical Progression is the individual Mastery tracks themselves.

For example, they mentioned bark stripping in the PoI:

• If that ‘bark stripping’ is a passive stat (i.e. x% bark penetration) that grows the more you progress it, it’s VP.
• If it’s a skill you unlock, it’s HP. It’s a tool that doesn’t necessarily make you more powerful stat-wise, but it’s a tool to use against certain creatures.
• If it’s a skill you unlock that gets more powerful the further you progress the track, in which case it’s an example of both.

One final note – since we’re cherry picking quotes, this quote:

Masteries will give you the tools you need to excel in these fights. Hunt new enemies, master abilities to defeat champions, and become more deadly against the new creatures waiting in the jungle. (emphasis added)

could also easily be read as:

Masteries will give you the tools you need to excel in these fights. Hunt new enemies, master abilities to defeat champions, and become more deadly against the new creatures waiting in the jungle. (emphasis added)

suggesting that while you can complete these fights, unlocking these tools will make the fights easier.

It doesn’t matter if it’s called Yin and Yang Progression, or X and Z Progression, or Night and Day Progression, or Girl and Boy Progression. It doesn’t really change anything about what he said and what his concerns are.

Don’t get bogged down in semantics. His point is fairly clear even if you don’t agree with the terminology he coined to the two different things he’s referring to.

Issues are issues no matter what moniker you give them.

…

Personally I’m not buying the XPac unless they rescale the dungeon. It’s just, not fun to play in them. It actually feels like DAoC, where if you got hit while casting you were automatically interrupted and practically anything could 1-3 shot you, etc. The combat in this game feels a bit lazily done and the dungeon content is badly tuned on top of that.

I ran some dungeons with some other newer players last night (just doing the story dungeons over again cause nothing else to do) and about all 95% of them do was complain about the terrible dungeon tuning and how useless they felt in them, as well as how unfriendly so many encounters are to melee, among other things.

This “dodge or die” combat needs a bit of thought put into it. You can’t even enjoy the content because it’s too freaking twitchy to play your character in this game.

It’s like all the non-open world PvE content was designed for PvP Tournament players.

Needless to say, I’m basically forced to re-subscribe to WoW, just to continue experiencing some decent PvE content.

Oh well, maybe Elder’s Scroll will be better form that standpoint.

Problem one: I can totally see that as an issue as well. Here we are almost three years later and in order for them to fix something in the core game they are charging twice for it to be fixed. That to me is problematic as well. It’s the equivalent of WoW Charging for WoD to fix all of the problems in their classes that their own GhostCrawler caused when he was “balancing” their game.

I wonder if they’ll be making the new loot system a system that’s locked behind the expansion zone only as well? Or how about the problems with Defiance? Will we be seeing changes across the whole world or only in the new zone locked behind the expansion? That’s also problematic.

Problem 2:

I’m not worried about whether they are calling track tiers horizontal or not I’m more worried that they will turn masteries into the newest grind like they did with the gear system in this game for Ascended. If so they can keep it because I’m tired of grinding being the only way that these developers can try to keep players in their game, it’s entirely unnecessary and it’s very bad form to try to make their game a 2004 model. Grinding should absolutely be a thing of the past, we shouldn’t be seeing grinding in modern developments.

In fact, ascended gear progression, if not fixed in this expansion, will be a deciding factor as to whether or not I’ll be back just as the rewards system will be a deciding factor.

Three things will get me back. The removal of DR/fixing of rewards from the loot system (we should be able to farm materials), the fixing of the grind system for ascended gear/karma revitalization, and the rebalance of the classes especially fixing the problems caused by early balance decisions for classes like the Engineer in PVE that have never been fixed. I shouldn’t have to use flame thrower as the only viable means of fighting because rifles, grenades, and bombs are somehow the devil meanwhile the favored class is still allowed to solo 5 mans.

These are the three core concerns for the game that have made it impossible for me to play it at this time. Here’s the hoping they come to their senses.

TaCktiX.6729:

Problem 1: It’s Completely Expansion Exclusive
Negative Incentive: Why Not to Make Masteries Expansion Exclusive

TL;DR, The masteries associated with the core game should not be locked behind the expansion, but given to any owner of Guild Wars 2. This functions as both an incentive to get the expansion for the cooler Heart of Thorns part, and a way to keep the community together even when it “splits” over the expansion.

I don’t think this will change.
Just like in GW1 if you didn’t buy the expansion you didn’t get new classes, you didn’t get new armor,achievements, zones, dungeons, etc.

This will most likely continue with GW2.

Secondly, this is a carrot on a stick so to speak for people to buy the expansion in the first place.
If you want extra weapons, progression, or what ever else.
You need to buy it.
If you don’t want it, don’t buy.

A-net employee’s need to eat too, and apparently they realize this.
Because mastery’s will be HoT exclusive.

Just a quick food for thought. If you don’t get the expansion, you probably won’t be able to slay Mordremoth – because future releases may as well be tied to the expanding Maguuma Jungle.

Tom Gore.4035:

Terrahero.9358:

Also the Mastery system replaces skill points when you hit lv80, meaning experience after lv80 awards mastery experience. It would seem unfair for non-HoT players to also lose the acquisition of skill points, as for them that would leave no purpose for post-80 experience.

Their purpose post-80 should be to buy the expansion. And it looks like Anet also thinks that way.

It’s not attractive to come a cross as to desperate.

Adding new content to an expansion is one thing. Stripping out content from GW2 and than reselling it in an expansion is quite something else.

Terrahero.9358:

Tom Gore.4035:

Terrahero.9358:

Also the Mastery system replaces skill points when you hit lv80, meaning experience after lv80 awards mastery experience. It would seem unfair for non-HoT players to also lose the acquisition of skill points, as for them that would leave no purpose for post-80 experience.

Their purpose post-80 should be to buy the expansion. And it looks like Anet also thinks that way.

It’s not attractive to come a cross as to desperate.

Adding new content to an expansion is one thing. Stripping out content from GW2 and than reselling it in an expansion is quite something else.

And what content are they taking away again?

Tren.5120:

Don’t get bogged down in semantics. His point is fairly clear even if you don’t agree with the terminology he coined to the two different things he’s referring to.

Issues are issues no matter what moniker you give them.

The point is not clear to me. Can you please explain it?

I have a policy of not arguing about which definition is “right”, so I won’t argue about whether the progression is horizontal or vertical.

What I will point out is that if they release a (hypothetical) second expansion, then the masteries in HoT won’t apply to the second expansion, so you are on even footing with someone who just buys the second expansion. That does solve a significant problem with expansions — you don’t need to play HoT to purchase and play future expansions. I do believe that was the intent here.

TaCktiX.6729:

Problem 1: It’s Completely Expansion Exclusive
Negative Incentive: Why Not to Make Masteries Expansion Exclusive

TL;DR, The masteries associated with the core game should not be locked behind the expansion, but given to any owner of Guild Wars 2. This functions as both an incentive to get the expansion for the cooler Heart of Thorns part, and a way to keep the community together even when it “splits” over the expansion.

Problem 2: Mastery Track Tiers aren’t Horizontal
Levels by Any Other Name: Mastery Track Tiers

TL;DR, Masteries are vertical progression, just like the existing leveling system is. Calling it “not the typical” is disingenuous and builds hype that is bound to get disappointed. But with a few simple changes, it can shift from raw vertical to almost horizontal, with added benefits.

Ya, it will require the expansion. They are making something with the intent of you buying it. If you don’t buy it, you don’t get it. It is a sound business model, and a vocal minority aren’t okay with it. The majority of gamers are fine with paying for content, especially an MMO expanion’s worth.

As for vertical progression…you can freaking define anything as vertical progression that isn’t cosmetic. Get over it. There will always be vertical progression in a game that is DESIGNED TO KEEP YOU PLAYING. You won’t ever see otherwise, because people won’t play that game.

These are two very vocal complaints that are completely foolish.

TaCktiX.6729:

Problem 1: It’s Completely Expansion Exclusive
Negative Incentive: Why Not to Make Masteries Expansion Exclusive

TL;DR, The masteries associated with the core game should not be locked behind the expansion, but given to any owner of Guild Wars 2. This functions as both an incentive to get the expansion for the cooler Heart of Thorns part, and a way to keep the community together even when it “splits” over the expansion.

So WoW should give the level cap increase to everyone?

The thing that has me confused is that they’ve said that masteries will be added to the core game as well as the expansion zones. When they say that, it sort of implies everyone will be unlocking masteries, but the majority of them will only be useful while in the Maguuma Jungle. I know people have interpreted from an interview that said “When people unlock Heart of Thorns, they will gain access to the Mastery system” or something similar that only people with the expansions will gain masteries, but I believe this might just be another one of those impulsive replies given in interviews, or people reading far too deeply into an off-hand comment in the interview. I suppose we’ll have to wait and see just what they have planned.

You are losing none of the game if you don’t buy the expansion. You just won’t get as much as others who do pay for it. That sounds like good old-fashioned free market to me. What am I missing?

Rognik.2579:

The thing that has me confused is that they’ve said that masteries will be added to the core game as well as the expansion zones. When they say that, it sort of implies everyone will be unlocking masteries, but the majority of them will only be useful while in the Maguuma Jungle. I know people have interpreted from an interview that said “When people unlock Heart of Thorns, they will gain access to the Mastery system” or something similar that only people with the expansions will gain masteries, but I believe this might just be another one of those impulsive replies given in interviews, or people reading far too deeply into an off-hand comment in the interview. I suppose we’ll have to wait and see just what they have planned.

It doesn’t come from an interview, it comes straight from the blog post made by Arenanet concerning masteries:

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns.

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/

Linken.6345:

Terrahero.9358:

Tom Gore.4035:

Terrahero.9358:

Also the Mastery system replaces skill points when you hit lv80, meaning experience after lv80 awards mastery experience. It would seem unfair for non-HoT players to also lose the acquisition of skill points, as for them that would leave no purpose for post-80 experience.

Their purpose post-80 should be to buy the expansion. And it looks like Anet also thinks that way.

It’s not attractive to come a cross as to desperate.

Adding new content to an expansion is one thing. Stripping out content from GW2 and than reselling it in an expansion is quite something else.

And what content are they taking away again?

We were talking hypothetically. If arenanet takes the skillpoints for leveling post-lv80 away from everyone, but only give HoT players the mastery experience post-lv80, than that would mean non-HoT players lose all purpose of xp past level 80.

It’s a less grievous hypothetical situation than the new borderland, but a new expansion should never take away anything from players only to than sell it back to them.

I don’t see the problem. HOT access characters with masteries don’t impact a non-HOT’s character to access the part of the game they paid for.

As for not locking masteries behind HOT … give us a break. You’re kidding? So basically you just think it should be free … for reasons?

We really should stop treating vertical progression as a dirty word. I understand the gear and level grind associated with it, but it has it’s place.

In this case of masteries, it’s vertical progression that then allows horizontal progression. Levelling an ability so you can have a different, not necessarily stronger ability than those without it. Seems an ideal way for gw2 to have both.