Guild Wars 2

I know this has been discussed (quite alot) but i dont think theres anything game-breaking about allowing only weapons to be picked outside elite specs.

Imo so far iv seen that the bigger “powercreep” or effectiveness of the elite specs come from the traits and the utility skills themselves. Usually the weapon plays smaller part. (this varies from class to class)

I also believe that it won’t cause some great imbalance if you can use, lets say the shield while playing base mesmer.

1 of the biggest complains with Hot was that build diversity took a big hit by the superior elite specs and i believe that this would open up build crafting alot more.

I also want to run around on expac 2 with axe shield on my mismir

I can also understand the arguement around making hard choices and i believe keeping the utilities locked and the max elite traitlines active to 1 creates enough of a hard choice.

I couldn’t make sense of any of that….

gimme a sec (fatfingers are fat)

EDIT: Now?

Could have said it much easier, I want to use all weapons no matter what elite or core specs that I have selected.

I’ve given my view on Elite Specs many many times… so to anyone who’s seen my posts on this knows it goes without saying that I agree completely that the weapons shouldn’t be locked behind the Elite Spec being slotted.

I think the idea is that elite specs are a major feature of expansions so tying the weapon choice to the spec is important. Also, every available weapon skill has to be balanced against every other; the more new weapons, the harder it gets to balance.

I can see why people want more options for the base class (or even the base class with new elite specs unlocked). That doesn’t mean it’s good for the game’s long-term health.

I generally support this idea. While on the one hand I acknowledge that it would make balancing more tricky to do, I just find it really, REALLY stupid that simply by swapping some traits, my character suddenly doesn’t know how to use a Staff/Torch/Shield anymore.

That said, I think that locking weapons to Elite Specs SHOULD remain for PvP, to keep things on a more level playing field.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think the idea is that elite specs are a major feature of expansions so tying the weapon choice to the spec is important. Also, every available weapon skill has to be balanced against every other; the more new weapons, the harder it gets to balance.

I can see why people want more options for the base class (or even the base class with new elite specs unlocked). That doesn’t mean it’s good for the game’s long-term health.

It might make things only slightly harder to balance, but the end result would actually be far better balance. Besides, if they are doing things correctly when they release the next expansion with it’s new elite specs, the new and the old elite specs will be equal in power, which means they already have to include the current elite spec weapons in their balance efforts to ensure that the new elite spec doesn’t outshine the old. Quite frankly, it’d be far easier to ensure both Elite specs are on par with each other if the weapons are interchangeable.

Panda.1967:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think the idea is that elite specs are a major feature of expansions so tying the weapon choice to the spec is important. Also, every available weapon skill has to be balanced against every other; the more new weapons, the harder it gets to balance.

I can see why people want more options for the base class (or even the base class with new elite specs unlocked). That doesn’t mean it’s good for the game’s long-term health.

It might make things only slightly harder to balance, but the end result would actually be far better balance. Besides, if they are doing things correctly when they release the next expansion with it’s new elite specs, the new and the old elite specs will be equal in power, which means they already have to include the current elite spec weapons in their balance efforts to ensure that the new elite spec doesn’t outshine the old. Quite frankly, it’d be far easier to ensure both Elite specs are on par with each other if the weapons are interchangeable.

Slightly harder balance can mean a lot, especially in an MMO (and even more so competative) enviroment where people flock to fotm classes and builds.

Also you are incorrect about the next expansion, at least your argument that the effort would remain the same. With the current system arenanet has to make sure the new elite spec and weapon skills are balanced against other elite specs (core classes aside since I doubt they will remain viable at all with 2 elite specs available). Having to balance all weapons against each other all the time is far harder and will become more difficult as time and amount of elite specs passes/increase.

Personally I would love to have access to all the weapons all the time (it will be harder to outshine chrono shield with the next elite spec) but realise that it would become a balancing nightmare, especially in keeping powercreep in check or keeping elite specs balanced against each other. Also value in choise is something not to be underestimated as far as gameplay fun and creativety is concerned.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think the idea is that elite specs are a major feature of expansions so tying the weapon choice to the spec is important. Also, every available weapon skill has to be balanced against every other; the more new weapons, the harder it gets to balance.

I can see why people want more options for the base class (or even the base class with new elite specs unlocked). That doesn’t mean it’s good for the game’s long-term health.

You will get acess to shield in and out of chrono only once you have unlocked the elite spec. Thats a given. Also the weapons have been balanced the shield on mesmers was tuned and somwill elite soec 2 weapons and 3 and 4 etc.

I think i should mention that Only those who have hot and only tjose who have unlocked the elite soec can use the weapons. Wether its with the trait line/utilities equiped or not. It just feels wierd that even tho i have mastered the chronomancer i cannot use shield outside of it.

Maybe if ANet had to think about balancing Elite Spec weapons with different possibilities, Elite Specs would not be so much better than core ones.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Maybe if ANet had to think about balancing Elite Spec weapons with different possibilities, Elite Specs would not be so much better than core ones.

So true…

Cyninja.2954:

Having to balance all weapons against each other all the time is far harder and will become more difficult as time and amount of elite specs passes/increase.

They will have to do that anyway. And besides, even unlocked, the weapons will still be strongly tied to their specs, because all the traits that enhance them are in that single traitline. That means that without that spec, the weapons will be weaker, not stronger.

Astralporing.1957:

Cyninja.2954:

Having to balance all weapons against each other all the time is far harder and will become more difficult as time and amount of elite specs passes/increase.

They will have to do that anyway. And besides, even unlocked, the weapons will still be strongly tied to their specs, because all the traits that enhance them are in that single traitline. That means that without that spec, the weapons will be weaker, not stronger.

No they don’t.

The new mesmer spec for example does not have to be balanced around chrono shield (as 1 example) because the way the system currently works it is impossible to have both chrono shield and the new elite spec available.

I would LOVE to have Tides of Time and an alacrity providing phantasm in every build I run. That is overpowered though or would require extra balancing.

Not all weapons are that closely tied to the elite spec in that they become trash tier without it, not in the current iteration of the game. Especially when most elite spec weapons get unique toys to entice players to get the expansion/elite spec.

Some weapons of mention that are quite powerful:

- Mesmer chrono shield (maybe one of the most powerful)
- Thief Daredevil staff
- Ranger Druid staff
- necromancer reaper greatsword

and that’s just off the top of my head. The other current elite specialisation weapons are quite powerful too. That’s without considering future elite specialisation weapon releases which I doubt will be less powerful.

Cyninja.2954:

Astralporing.1957:

Cyninja.2954:

Having to balance all weapons against each other all the time is far harder and will become more difficult as time and amount of elite specs passes/increase.

They will have to do that anyway. And besides, even unlocked, the weapons will still be strongly tied to their specs, because all the traits that enhance them are in that single traitline. That means that without that spec, the weapons will be weaker, not stronger.

No they don’t.

The new mesmer spec for example does not have to be balanced around chrono shield (as 1 example) because the way the system currently works it is impossible to have both chrono shield and the new elite spec available.

I would LOVE to have Tides of Time and an alacrity providing phantasm in every build I run. That is overpowered though or would require extra balancing.

Not all weapons are that closely tied to the elite spec in that they become trash tier without it, not in the current iteration of the game. Especially when most elite spec weapons get unique toys to entice players to get the expansion/elite spec.

Some weapons of mention that are quite powerful:

- Mesmer chrono shield (maybe one of the most powerful)
- Thief Daredevil staff
- Ranger Druid staff
- necromancer reaper greatsword

and that’s just off the top of my head. The other current elite specialisation weapons are quite powerful too. That’s without considering future elite specialisation weapon releases which I doubt will be less powerful.

You seem to be completely misunderstanding everything.

If they don’t balance new elite weapons against old ones then there will inevitably be a gap in power between them. You said yourself you doubt they will be less powerful. Well how do you expect them to insure they aren’t less powerful? If they arn’t balancing them against the old, then they are going to either be weaker or stronger… Are you expecting them to be more powerful?

The only way to insure that new elite spec weapons are on par with current ones IS to balance them against each other. So, yes, they do already have to balance them against each other anyways. There is no reason to not just let us use them separate from the elite spec. Leave them as unlocks, but once unlocked they are available period.

Cyninja.2954:

Astralporing.1957:

Cyninja.2954:

Having to balance all weapons against each other all the time is far harder and will become more difficult as time and amount of elite specs passes/increase.

They will have to do that anyway. And besides, even unlocked, the weapons will still be strongly tied to their specs, because all the traits that enhance them are in that single traitline. That means that without that spec, the weapons will be weaker, not stronger.

No they don’t.

The new mesmer spec for example does not have to be balanced around chrono shield (as 1 example) because the way the system currently works it is impossible to have both chrono shield and the new elite spec available.

I would LOVE to have Tides of Time and an alacrity providing phantasm in every build I run. That is overpowered though or would require extra balancing.

Not all weapons are that closely tied to the elite spec in that they become trash tier without it, not in the current iteration of the game. Especially when most elite spec weapons get unique toys to entice players to get the expansion/elite spec.

Some weapons of mention that are quite powerful:

- Mesmer chrono shield (maybe one of the most powerful)
- Thief Daredevil staff
- Ranger Druid staff
- necromancer reaper greatsword

and that’s just off the top of my head. The other current elite specialisation weapons are quite powerful too. That’s without considering future elite specialisation weapon releases which I doubt will be less powerful.

But the mesmer shield is not a dps weapon its a utility support one. I highly dought mesmer will see more support elite specs in the future due to the extreme focus on support the class already has so if its either a power weapon a healing weapon or ancondi weapon they can all co exist. The alacrity phantasm would also take a huge hit from the lack of improved alacrity in traits.

Panda.1967:

Cyninja.2954:

Astralporing.1957:

Cyninja.2954:

Having to balance all weapons against each other all the time is far harder and will become more difficult as time and amount of elite specs passes/increase.

They will have to do that anyway. And besides, even unlocked, the weapons will still be strongly tied to their specs, because all the traits that enhance them are in that single traitline. That means that without that spec, the weapons will be weaker, not stronger.

No they don’t.

The new mesmer spec for example does not have to be balanced around chrono shield (as 1 example) because the way the system currently works it is impossible to have both chrono shield and the new elite spec available.

I would LOVE to have Tides of Time and an alacrity providing phantasm in every build I run. That is overpowered though or would require extra balancing.

Not all weapons are that closely tied to the elite spec in that they become trash tier without it, not in the current iteration of the game. Especially when most elite spec weapons get unique toys to entice players to get the expansion/elite spec.

Some weapons of mention that are quite powerful:

- Mesmer chrono shield (maybe one of the most powerful)
- Thief Daredevil staff
- Ranger Druid staff
- necromancer reaper greatsword

and that’s just off the top of my head. The other current elite specialisation weapons are quite powerful too. That’s without considering future elite specialisation weapon releases which I doubt will be less powerful.

You seem to be completely misunderstanding everything.

If they don’t balance new elite weapons against old ones then there will inevitably be a gap in power between them. You said yourself you doubt they will be less powerful. Well how do you expect them to insure they aren’t less powerful? If they arn’t balancing them against the old, then they are going to either be weaker or stronger… Are you expecting them to be more powerful?

The only way to insure that new elite spec weapons are on par with current ones IS to balance them against each other. So, yes, they do already have to balance them against each other anyways. There is no reason to not just let us use them separate from the elite spec. Leave them as unlocks, but once unlocked they are available period.

I’m not missunderstanding, but you are using the word balance and the process involved way to lenient with concern to this issue.

Yes, new specs and weapons will have to be balanced against other specs and weapons

BUT

there is a difference if I continue to have access to other powerful (currently elite only) weapons plus the new weapon I am adding as developer or not. How can this be so hard to understand?

The mesmer shield is a perfect example. It’s a very powerful offhand weapon which is balanced around the chronospecialisation and the fact that it’s only an offhand. When they designed the skills they knew that the shield will be used ONLY with sword or scepter mainhands weapons.

Now let’s assume the axe is added as new weapon with the next expansion (with mainhand capability). There is a balance difference if I have to consider the new axe skills getting used with or without the shield from chrono.

Both situations (perma weapons and not perma weapons) require balance, one requires more balance though than the other (permanent weapons being more complex). I don’t understand how I can explain this point clearer.

zealex.9410:

But the mesmer shield is not a dps weapon its a utility support one. I highly dought mesmer will see more support elite specs in the future due to the extreme focus on support the class already has so if its either a power weapon a healing weapon or ancondi weapon they can all co exist. The alacrity phantasm would also take a huge hit from the lack of improved alacrity in traits.

What you expect and what might come to pass are 2 different things. Also I was using the mesmer shield as example. Daredevil staff, druid staff and reaper greatsword would be excelent weapons to be run with a different elite specialisation.

Tides of Time is still a wave interupt with no target limit which provides quickness (to be comboed with signet) and the shield phantasm, while less powerful without improved alacrity, still provides an elite specialisation unique buff.

Go back up and read what I wrote:

Cyninja.2954:

Personally I would love to have access to all the weapons all the time (it will be harder to outshine chrono shield with the next elite spec) but realise that it would become a balancing nightmare, especially in keeping powercreep in check or keeping elite specs balanced against each other. Also value in choise is something not to be underestimated as far as gameplay fun and creativety is concerned.

So far, no one has addressed the issue of permanent new weapons creating more balance difficulty besides saying: no it aint so, when I have explicitly explained how balance is affected and how this becomes more complex with more weapons.

It’s simple: more variables makes it harder to balance. More weapons means more variables. Period.

cough cough ventari cough cough. Your expectation for the reality also may differ. Unlocking weapons might be so big of an issue since the biggest gain in power comes for the utility skills and the traits.

Cyninja.2954:

So far, no one has addressed the issue of permanent new weapons creating more balance difficulty besides saying: no it aint so, when I have explicitly explained how balance is affected and how this becomes more complex with more weapons.

It’s simple: more variables makes it harder to balance. More weapons means more variables. Period.

At the current stage it adds only one additional variable… sure it adds more down the road, but each expansion already adds more to the list of what they have to balance for anyways.

Continuing with your mesmer example…

Currently we have shield, the next elite spec is suspected to give axe. Currently they have to insure that the Axe be it either mainhand or offhand isn’t definitively better than the Shield, so to insure that the shield still see’s reasonable amount of use and that everyone doesn’t just flock to the new elite spec for an overpowered axe. That requires they to be balanced against each other. The shield may be a support weapon and the axe might be an offense weapon, which means the metrics that most players use to compare weapons don’t really line up very well. However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t metrics by which they can be compared for balance. If the next expansion after this gives say mainhand Pistol, then they have to not only make sure the pistol isn’t stronger than the Axe but it also can’t be stronger than the shield either, and the list expands with each expansion. Not to mention they also have to make sure that every potential combination is on par.

If weapons are made permanent unlocks however, the process changes. Now the factor of “is this a better elite weapon” can be COMPLETELY IGNORED…. they only have to make sure that every combination is on par with each other. Mainhand Axe can be definitively better than the Sheild but still be balanced because it’s on par with Sword and Scepter, so any combination with the shield is equal. It’s actually likely to be less work in the long run.

In short:

Current System – new elite weapon must be balanced against existing same slot weapons and pre-existing elite weapons regardless of slot.

Perma Unlock – new elite weapon must only be balanced against existing same slot weapons.

A new elite weapon being definitively better or worse than an old one is a non-issue when they are different slot weapons and you can just take both as long as it’s not definitively better or worse than any other same slot weapon.

Panda.1967:

At the current stage it adds only one additional variable… sure it adds more down the road, but each expansion already adds more to the list of what they have to balance for anyways.

Again, and I have stated this above, your approach to how balance works confuses me.

Saying:“It’s only a bit more difficult to balance since they have all this other stuff to balance anyway.” is no argument. Any bit more balance makes things more complex and harder.

Panda.1967:

Currently we have shield, the next elite spec is suspected to give axe. Currently they have to insure that the Axe be it either mainhand or offhand isn’t definitively better than the Shield, so to insure that the shield still see’s reasonable amount of use and that everyone doesn’t just flock to the new elite spec for an overpowered axe. That requires they to be balanced against each other.

No it doesn’t. The shield and new elite specialisation weapon do not have to be balanced against each other. They have to be balanced against other elite specialisations and weapon. If the axe and next elite specialisation is a dps one (for example) it only needs to be balanced against top dps of other classes which might require a high dps mainhand skillset for axe. That in turn makes chronomancer way more powerful if it got access to a high damage mainhand weapon.

Panda.1967:

In short:

Current System – new elite weapon must be balanced against existing same slot weapons and pre-existing elite weapons regardless of slot.

Perma Unlock – new elite weapon must only be balanced against existing same slot weapons.

A new elite weapon being definitively better or worse than an old one is a non-issue when they are different slot weapons and you can just take both as long as it’s not definitively better or worse than any other same slot weapon.

A. nope. elite weapons do not have to be balanced against each other. One elite weapon can be easily be more powerful than another if say the specialisation compensates for this.

B.) balancing an continually greater number of variables against each other is hardly:only be balanced against existing slot. You are leaving out the interactions the elite weapons might have with each other.

zealex.9410:

cough cough ventari cough cough. Your expectation for the reality also may differ. Unlocking weapons might be so big of an issue since the biggest gain in power comes for the utility skills and the traits.

Not sure I follow, what does ventari have to do with anything?

Again, the argument that:“Well the main power difference comes from xyz, thus we can ignore balance concerning abc.” is not a very good one.

To sum up, I get what people want to say with “but permanent access would free things up and balance has to get done anyway”.

I simply do not agree that this would be in any way easier, on the same level or only slightly harder work wise.

It goes against any type of systematic and logical approach to assume that more variables would magically make things easier or keep effort required the same. Unless impact of the item gets reduced (like racial skills) to an extent where it doesn’t matter if you had access to it or not.

As stated above, I doubt though that elite weapons will be so underpowered in that this would be a valid approach.

Cyninja.2954:

Panda.1967:

At the current stage it adds only one additional variable… sure it adds more down the road, but each expansion already adds more to the list of what they have to balance for anyways.

Again, and I have stated this above, your approach to how balance works confuses me.

Saying:“It’s only a bit more difficult to balance since they have all this other stuff to balance anyway.” is no argument. Any bit more balance makes things more complex and harder.

Panda.1967:

Currently we have shield, the next elite spec is suspected to give axe. Currently they have to insure that the Axe be it either mainhand or offhand isn’t definitively better than the Shield, so to insure that the shield still see’s reasonable amount of use and that everyone doesn’t just flock to the new elite spec for an overpowered axe. That requires they to be balanced against each other.

No it doesn’t. The shield and new elite specialisation weapon do not have to be balanced against each other. They have to be balanced against other elite specialisations and weapon. If the axe and next elite specialisation is a dps one (for example) it only needs to be balanced against top dps of other classes which might require a high dps mainhand skillset for axe. That in turn makes chronomancer way more powerful if it got access to a high damage mainhand weapon.

You’re approach here is what is often referred to as “Bad balance”. If a DPS spec requires it’s related weapon to be overpowered (especially when compared to other weapons in the same slot) in order to be on par with other classes DPS specs, then that elite spec was balanced poorly. The amount of power you get from any individual mainhand weapon on any given class should, when balanced properly, be comparable to any other mainhand weapon from the same class. Does this mean that the DPS of Axe vs Sword vs Scepter should be identical? No, not really, because if one of them offers more defensive benefits than the others then there should be an equivilant exchange of power from offense to defense, otherwise the weapon that offers identical DPS but also provides greater defensive benefits is obviously superior and thus unbalanced.

Do they need to compare the spec as a whole to other classes specs filling the same role? Yes, but often times those balance issues are because of traits. They should always look at the traits first to resolve balance issues between classes. What you suggest is blatant power creep, which I’m sure nearly everyone at this point can admit was a terrible mistake with the final implementation of Elite Specs.

Odds are, if the next mesmer elite spec was a DPS spec with mainhand axe, and it was sub-par to another classes DPS elite spec the issue would be either that A) mesmer’s new elite spec’s traits are underperforming, or B) the other classes elite spec is overperforming. And if the issue truly was wit the Axe being too weak, then that would be a result of the Axe being a weaker choice than Sword or Scepter, or even simply proof that mesmer weapons are underpowered as a whole.

Cyninja.2954:

As stated above, I doubt though that elite weapons will be so underpowered in that this would be a valid approach.

Elite weapons, in fact Elite specs as a whole, were never even meant to be an increase in power over core specs and weapons. The specs were intended to provide you a more focused avenue for a particular build type, with the ultimate goal of providing an elite for every major build time in each class as well as opening up some new paths that may have otherwise not been considered as even possible for the class. The weapons were intended to simply provide a new option.

So I don’t see where you’re getting this misguided notion that the weapons have to be “underpowered” to be made permanent unlocks. They simply need to be balanced against other weapons of the same slot to be permanent unlocks. If the overall power gained from weapon X is comparable to the power gained from weapon Y then they are balanced.

Example: If Sword was the strongest Power DPS weapon for a class, and Axe provided a hybrid Power DPS + Defense but as a result did 10% less DPS than the sword. The two would be balanced as long as the defensive benefit of the axe was of equivalent value to 10% of the sword’s DPS.

Note: 100DPS and 100MDPS (mitigated damage per second) are not necessarily equivalent values. 100DPS is more likely to be equivalent to 66MDPS. This is because the damage mitigation ultimately improves long term DPS, since the less damage you take the less you have to heal meaning the longer you can maintain sustained DPS.

Panda.1967:

You’re approach here is what is often referred to as “Bad balance”. If a DPS spec requires it’s related weapon to be overpowered (especially when compared to other weapons in the same slot) in order to be on par with other classes DPS specs, then that elite spec was balanced poorly.

Oh I agree about the balance argument. Unfortunately I am looking at how arenanet has been balancing so far instead of this “should be” situation.

Once we arrive in should be land, I’ll gladly see other types of balance arguments be valid.

Panda.1967:

Example: If Sword was the strongest Power DPS weapon for a class, and Axe provided a hybrid Power DPS + Defense but as a result did 10% less DPS than the sword. The two would be balanced as long as the defensive benefit of the axe was of equivalent value to 10% of the sword’s DPS.

True, and I have clearly stated that I don’t believe arenanet will make weapons from elite specialisations equal to normal accessible weapons.

Thus the entire argument that weapons need to be equal to each other is moot.

This still does not address the fact that balancing an ever growing weapon pool is inherintly more difficult by numbers alone.

Balancing from a clean slate of core builds with a fixed number of weapons is easier than having to accomodate each new weapon added. That does not even address the issue of them being more flexible with designing new elite weapons more interesting without having to worry about wierd class mechanic interactions.

Cyninja.2954:

This still does not address the fact that balancing an ever growing weapon pool is inherintly more difficult by numbers alone.

It’s true, but having some weapons tied to specific elite specs also adds a layer to balancing, which decoupling would remove. The question is, of course, whether by decoupling we’d gain more than we’d lose.