Guild Wars 2

Because this game is an MMO, I’m not convinced everything should be soloable. As far as HoT is concerned, I’ve been able to solo the vast majority of the content. I enjoy the extra difficulty, and after many repeated runs the difficulty has deteriorated.

Some answers, though I am too lazy to quote the various questions asked.

The multiplayer in MMO does not stand for grouping, it simply means that multiple people are playing on the same server/map/etc. Originally this was only 4 or so people in the original usage of the term in the industry and by gamers. It also was almost universally meaning you were playing AGAINST those other people. So using it as an excuse for things to not be soloable? Yeah, long debunked. MMO means what it has always meant, that you will see others playing in the same areas as you and no grouping is required. Grouping came about as a reaction to things devs were doing, not because of a term for a game. So anyone still using the statement that x game is an MMO and thus you should be grouping…you are showing your ignorance and lack of understanding on what MMO means, and are in fact defaulting to a farcical base argument because you lack a good one.

As for where people who want a challenge should go? Open world and story content should be soloable. If you want a challenge…that is what veteran modes, dungeons, raids, and instanced off areas are for. The meta bosses fit this description as well. Just getting around a map should never be challenging. Apparently enough people consider HoT maps too challenging to just explore. We might not see it that way but it is a completely valid concern. I hear most of the problems though are related to the fact the minimap is of almost no help in getting around HoT maps. If they could fix this people might stop complaining about the vertical map complaints.

Another often seen complaint is the fact so many of the hero challenges in HoT require a group. These things should only spawn champs if they sense 4+ people within range, like 1200 of the challenge. Otherwise, just spawn a dang vet or silver and call it done. They are supposed to be hero challenges, not group challenges. Otherwise I expect group reward (IE drop dungeon loot/tokens/map currency).

Break bars are another issue of contention as they negate many fun builds from being playable. As I have seen and used myself as an example, sword/sword – rifle warrior is a popular and fun build that is nigh unplayable in HoT. Because of the breakbar and reliance on AoE damage to survive encounters in the new maps. This is a dev issue as it is bad game design to allow any POSSIBLE build to be kitten in such a way. Every weapon should be capable of breaking a break bar, just add an effect to one of the attacks so the weapons can continue to be viable.

These being just some of the issues I see brought up in map chats, and here.

Djinn.9245:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Old fashioned learning through discovery – there was a time that people understood and relished this over dull predictability and dot to dot instructions.

Unfortunately, some gamers seem more interested in convenience than anything else. Having to think and perhaps struggle a bit is inconvenient. I believe that the ubiquity of TV is at least partially the cause. TV only requires that you pay your cable bill and turn on the TV to be entertained. The only struggle might be finding something worth watching.

Some gamers seem to want a similar experience in their games. Buy the game, turn it on, be entertained without any struggle, with no significant effort or investment. Just look at the massive popularity of the mindless Facebook games. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that attitude, those who want that kind of experience in a given game cannot be catered to with the same content that is aimed at players who want something more than minimally active amusement.

Games are for entertainment – you know, fun? I’m not sure why you are trying to say that how anyone PLAYS a game is “wrong”. If I play GW2 by doing nothing but craft and never go out of a city, that would still be a completely reasonable way to play.

he is saying that some people don’t have fun and blame the game when actually the root cause is elsewhere.

That’s not how I interpret what he said, but whatever.

So, when he said that there was nothing wrong with it, you interpreted the statement as meaning that there was?

Djinn.9245:

Games are for entertainment – you know, fun? I’m not sure why you are trying to say that how anyone PLAYS a game is “wrong”. If I play GW2 by doing nothing but craft and never go out of a city, that would still be a completely reasonable way to play.

I did not use the word wrong nor any of its synonyms except to say there is nothing wrong with people wanting a less-challenging experience. So, I did not say that how people play the game is wrong. The negatives I did mention had to do with desire for convenience overriding any other consideration and the mindlessness of many of the Facebook games like Cityville.

I made those statements because I think games which encourage thought are better games, and because I believe that too much convenience means that there is less thought needed to accomplish what one wants to in a game. In earlier times, players had to get creative and think outside the box because the developer provided less one-button solutions to problems. If that’s me saying that someone is wrong for wanting convenience or games requiring little thought, then guilty as charged, I guess.

The real point, which you did not address, is that developers cannot aim the same content at people wanting a more-challenging experience and people who want the opposite.

Djinn.9245:

In the case of GW2, people have been playing core quite happily and suddenly they give us HoT. In that case, players who are upset by this change are not looking in the wrong place for their gaming amusement. They had it all through GW2 as it was initially presented.

And those who wanted more challenge had been asking for it for a long time. HoT is a prime case of a developer trying to appeal to opposed demographics and not being able to pull it off. From the look of the LS3 zones, Anet has at least tried to find a middle ground.

The LS3 maps are a perfect balance IMO.

Djinn.9245:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Old fashioned learning through discovery – there was a time that people understood and relished this over dull predictability and dot to dot instructions.

Unfortunately, some gamers seem more interested in convenience than anything else. Having to think and perhaps struggle a bit is inconvenient. I believe that the ubiquity of TV is at least partially the cause. TV only requires that you pay your cable bill and turn on the TV to be entertained. The only struggle might be finding something worth watching.

Some gamers seem to want a similar experience in their games. Buy the game, turn it on, be entertained without any struggle, with no significant effort or investment. Just look at the massive popularity of the mindless Facebook games. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that attitude, those who want that kind of experience in a given game cannot be catered to with the same content that is aimed at players who want something more than minimally active amusement.

Games are for entertainment – you know, fun? I’m not sure why you are trying to say that how anyone PLAYS a game is “wrong”. If I play GW2 by doing nothing but craft and never go out of a city, that would still be a completely reasonable way to play.

he is saying that some people don’t have fun and blame the game when actually the root cause is elsewhere.

That’s not how I interpret what he said, but whatever.

In the case of GW2, people have been playing core quite happily and suddenly they give us HoT. In that case, players who are upset by this change are not looking in the wrong place for their gaming amusement. They had it all through GW2 as it was initially presented.

By the same token people did walk away from the core game because they thought it was boring. There was tons of content for casuals and very very little content for people who wanted challenge. Most MMOs have a mix of hard and easy content.

Look at what there was for PvE players who wanted challenge. There were dungeons but virtually all of them were around at launch and we’d done them a million times. They were certainly no longer challenging. Even the hardest dungeons didn’t really represent a challenge.

There were fractals but they had several issues, among them the time commitment required to play them ( you had to do four to get credit) and the fact that the randomness of the fractals made it hard to control your experience. I didn’t enjoy the dredge fractal for example and got it often enough where I simply stopped doing Fractals.

That’s pretty much it. There was nowhere particularly challenging or interesting in the open world.

Anet used HOT to fill in a gap in the content and told people it would be harder content. It wasn’t some super secret hidden agenda Anet had that no one knew about.

The people that loved core Tyria exactly where it was, those people were NOT served well by HoT. But the people who wanted more and different and something that progressed were.

There are numbers on both sides. The problem is, one side used to have pretty much everything. Now there’s a range of things.

Djinn.9245:

In the case of GW2, people have been playing core quite happily and suddenly they give us HoT. In that case, players who are upset by this change are not looking in the wrong place for their gaming amusement. They had it all through GW2 as it was initially presented.

They didn’t give us HoT. We had to choose, in light of its advertised increased level of difficulty, to buy it.

Looking at a product advertised as being unlike core GW2 for an experience like core GW2 might be accurately described as, “looking in the wrong place.”

You are right, though, in that some people had there gaming amusement preference in GW2 as it was initially presented. Still do.

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

In the case of GW2, people have been playing core quite happily and suddenly they give us HoT. In that case, players who are upset by this change are not looking in the wrong place for their gaming amusement. They had it all through GW2 as it was initially presented.

They didn’t give us HoT. We had to choose, in light of its advertised increased level of difficulty, to buy it.

Looking at a product advertised as being unlike core GW2 for an experience like core GW2 might be accurately described as, “looking in the wrong place.”

Can you point out to me where Anet “advertised” to those already playing GW2 that HoT had “increased level of difficulty”? I just looked at the HoT web page out of curiosity and don’t see a single word that even implies it.

http://buy.guildwars2.com/store/gw2/en_US/html/pbPage.heartofthorns

Was there only a brief mention?

Djinn.9245:

Can you point out to me where Anet “advertised” to those already playing GW2 that HoT had “increased level of difficulty”? I just looked at the HoT web page out of curiosity and don’t see a single word that even implies it.

http://buy.guildwars2.com/store/gw2/en_US/html/pbPage.heartofthorns

Was there only a brief mention?

There were discussions on the forums, in the CDI’s and elsewhere. In addition, as you can see in the blog announcing the first HoT Beta weekend…

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-first-beta-weekend-event-begins-august-7/

“The jungle content is predominantly the same content we showed to a small audience in closed beta testing earlier this year, but it’s more polished. We’ve done a lot of work to balance creature difficulty, and we’ll be looking for your thoughts on the overall experience. Do you feel the need to use your entire skill bar in battles? Does teaming up with other players feel more rewarding? Do you find yourself wanting to change your skills and traits to overcome encounters? Warning—creatures will be more challenging than in the existing Guild Wars 2 world.”

ANet is not the only MMO developer who depends on the penchant of a lot of MMO fans to devour everything the developer says, whether it be in a forum, blog, article on a fan site, etc. The downside of this tendency for fans who don’t follow everything said is that they will miss things. Maybe it would have been better to also say this sort of thing on the HoT web page. However, how many fans didn’t even read that?

From this blog post, you can see that increased creature difficulty was planned long before the 1st public beta. So, they did advertise increased difficulty, they just didn’t do a comprehensive job of it. If you’ve followed the game at all over the years, you would know that ANet does a mediocre to poor job of providing comprehensive information on the game to consumers.

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

In the case of GW2, people have been playing core quite happily and suddenly they give us HoT. In that case, players who are upset by this change are not looking in the wrong place for their gaming amusement. They had it all through GW2 as it was initially presented.

They didn’t give us HoT. We had to choose, in light of its advertised increased level of difficulty, to buy it.

Looking at a product advertised as being unlike core GW2 for an experience like core GW2 might be accurately described as, “looking in the wrong place.”

Can you point out to me where Anet “advertised” to those already playing GW2 that HoT had “increased level of difficulty”? I just looked at the HoT web page out of curiosity and don’t see a single word that even implies it.

http://buy.guildwars2.com/store/gw2/en_US/html/pbPage.heartofthorns

Was there only a brief mention?

Pretty much every interview I can remember talked about increased difficulty. Surely anyone into the game enough to look into the expansion and not just read the website (which really didn’t have much information before launch anyway), would have understood that HOT would be harder.

Anyone who played Guild Wars 1 and remembers that “true expansion” EoTN would have some clue it would be harder too.

You make it sound like harder content is something odd or strange for MMO expansions to offer. Its’ really not. It’s the norm. In most games, as you’ve said, that comes by way of dungeons and raids.

But this game has always centered on the open world, and it needed for some of us, the need for harder open world content.

The website isn’t the advertising, it’s only a small part of the advertising. This game had months, 9 I believe, of pushing the product through appearances at cons, interviews, and blog posts.

I don’t know how anyone who kept up at all didn’t see the content would be more difficult.

I can understand that people would imagine an expansion to “expand” only the number of stories, professions, races, and/or open world areas.

I hope others posting here also understand that games can expand in other dimensions, including increasing the difficulty level and including new challenges. Orr is more challenging than the rest of core Tyria and people still complain about (as well as compliment) the difficulty of karkas, navigating Dry Top, and dealing with the mordrem of the Silverwastes. (All areas within core Tyria.)

I don’t think it’s fair to characterize the new zones as “unplayable solo,” even though they offer increased challenges compared to what we were used to.

This topic now has over one thousand replies and fifty times more views. That should say a great deal by itself.

VaLee.5102:

This topic now has over one thousand replies and fifty times more views. That should say a great deal by itself.

Yes, it says that 25 people have posted 40 times each and check back frequently to see if they’ve gotten a response. This type of post tends to generate back-and-forth commentary where the same people say the same things over and over. Occasionally, new people post on one side or another, but the number is grossly inflated by the people who’ve taken an investment in the topic, one way or another. In other words, take the numbers with a grain of salt, as the forum utility which calculates posts and views pays no mind to how frequently the same people view or post.

IndigoSundown.5419:

VaLee.5102:

This topic now has over one thousand replies and fifty times more views. That should say a great deal by itself.

Yes, it says that 25 people have posted 40 times each and check back frequently to see if they’ve gotten a response. This type of post tends to generate back-and-forth commentary where the same people say the same things over and over. Occasionally, new people post on one side or another, but the number is grossly inflated by the people who’ve taken an investment in the topic, one way or another. In other words, take the numbers with a grain of salt, as the forum utility which calculates posts and views pays no mind to how frequently the same people view or post.

And in addition to that it looks like this thread was created over a year ago, it’s just that it’s been rezzed recently so we’re seeing it again / people are clicking on it again. For such an old thread it’s a bit pointless to try and think the amount of views / replies mean anything. But also as mentioned in the post above, a lot of those are a few people just having back and fourths saying the same thing over and over again.

To be fair, at the very least, it says that a vocal minority feel passionately that the new zones are too difficult to solo.

In ANet’s shoes, I would take note and start communicating more clearly that expansions change the game in all sorts of ways and that people need to be ready to adapt.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Yes, it says that 25 people have posted 40 times each and check back frequently to see if they’ve gotten a response.

For accuracy, this topic has 1031 posts by 367 users. Vayne is leading with 78 posts, more than double the next. 281 users have less than 3 posts in this topic, while 15 have more than 10. 218 haven’t posted within the last 90 days, while 31 made their last post in this topic.

(I cache the forums)

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

To be fair, at the very least, it says that a vocal minority feel passionately that the new zones are too difficult to solo.

In ANet’s shoes, I would take note and start communicatating more clearly that expansions change the game in all sorts of ways and that people need to be ready to adapt.

Well, adapt or leave; I’ve chosen the later. And, I’d be careful when using the term “vocal minority” as it’s usually merely a rhetorical device used to bolster an actual minority opinion on the forums. There is no vocal minority on the forums, there are merely voices—and, they are either in the minority or the majority. Do they represent all player voices—no. They merely represent all the voices on the forums.

I’ve determined that the current game is unplayable solo. And, let me be more precise in my definition: it is unplayable solo while having fun playing it. You see, one of my gaming principles in that the time I play should feel like play and be fun. I’m always returning to the forums every few months or so looking for changes in the games direction.

Raine.1394:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

To be fair, at the very least, it says that a vocal minority feel passionately that the new zones are too difficult to solo.

In ANet’s shoes, I would take note and start communicatating more clearly that expansions change the game in all sorts of ways and that people need to be ready to adapt.

Well, adapt or leave; I’ve chosen the later. And, I’d be careful when using the term “vocal minority” as it’s usually merely a rhetorical device used to bolster an actual minority opinion on the forums. There is no vocal minority on the forums, there are merely voices—and, they are either in the minority or the majority. Do they represent all player voices—no. They merely represent all the voices on the forums.

I’ve determined that the current game is unplayable solo. And, let me be more precise in my definition: it is unplayable solo while having fun playing it. You see, one of my gaming principles in that the time I play should feel like play and be fun. I’m always returning to the forums every few months or so looking for changes in the games direction.

I don’t know I think vocal minority is a very important concept. Let’s say a small group of people make so much noise that people think they’re a larger group than they are. It’ causes a chain reaction.

You’re not having fun soloing HoT and you said so loudly before you left, I’m sure. Other people are saying they can’t solo HoT as well. This is in spite of the fact that there are people who enjoy soloing HoT. But of course, complaints get more air time and they’re usually louder.

So people read this over and over again and they believe, rightly or wrongly that HoT isn’t soloable. They don’t then buy HOT to try it themselves.

I’ve seen more than one post by someone who’s hesitated buying HOT because of people saying it was so hard, but they didn’t find it that hard and they were enjoying it.

So yes, vocal minority can be an issue and saying it’s all just opinions and numbers don’t matter, probably isn’t the whole story.

This discussion is getting sooo old. More than 1k replies, sheesh.

To sum it all up:
There are people that like HoT.
There are people that don’t like HoT.
Both sides are mutually exclusive, so the intersection equals zero.
No compromise.

So what is the very point of this discussion?

Somehow reminds me of all the wars that have allegedly been fought over religion.

If the haters would not hate so much and play HoT instead, maybe they would be having fun with it by now…? If the likers would play instead of trying to convince the haters, they would be having fun nonetheless. So basically, this whole discussion is a lose-lose-situation.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

Can you point out to me where Anet “advertised” to those already playing GW2 that HoT had “increased level of difficulty”? I just looked at the HoT web page out of curiosity and don’t see a single word that even implies it.

http://buy.guildwars2.com/store/gw2/en_US/html/pbPage.heartofthorns

Was there only a brief mention?

There were discussions on the forums, in the CDI’s and elsewhere. In addition, as you can see in the blog announcing the first HoT Beta weekend…

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-first-beta-weekend-event-begins-august-7/

“The jungle content is predominantly the same content we showed to a small audience in closed beta testing earlier this year, but it’s more polished. We’ve done a lot of work to balance creature difficulty, and we’ll be looking for your thoughts on the overall experience. Do you feel the need to use your entire skill bar in battles? Does teaming up with other players feel more rewarding? Do you find yourself wanting to change your skills and traits to overcome encounters? Warning—creatures will be more challenging than in the existing Guild Wars 2 world.”

ANet is not the only MMO developer who depends on the penchant of a lot of MMO fans to devour everything the developer says, whether it be in a forum, blog, article on a fan site, etc. The downside of this tendency for fans who don’t follow everything said is that they will miss things. Maybe it would have been better to also say this sort of thing on the HoT web page. However, how many fans didn’t even read that?

From this blog post, you can see that increased creature difficulty was planned long before the 1st public beta. So, they did advertise increased difficulty, they just didn’t do a comprehensive job of it. If you’ve followed the game at all over the years, you would know that ANet does a mediocre to poor job of providing comprehensive information on the game to consumers.

So if you went out of your way to read the blog (I don’t know that I have ever read it since Beta), and if you read the forums (it is common knowledge that around 90% of MMO players don’t), not sure what CDI is (first result on Google: Capacitor discharge ignition)…

I and others made a statement that many players are disappointed in HoT because they liked GW2 as it was and then were unpleasantly surprised when they started HoT. The response was that it was advertised that HoT would be more difficult so why were we surprised. Now I find out that the “higher challenge” info tended to be in places that only very dedicated MMO players will look, so no, we should not have known before we bought HoT.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

To be fair, at the very least, it says that a vocal minority feel passionately that the new zones are too difficult to solo.

In ANet’s shoes, I would take note and start communicatating more clearly that expansions change the game in all sorts of ways and that people need to be ready to adapt.

Yes: “Be warned that we are going to change the game you love into something completely different!” No, I don’t think they’re going to say that to the vast majority of their players. I’m pretty sure that there is a good reason why the more generic areas that people go to get info on HoT (the webpage duh) don’t have even a tiny mention of higher difficulty. They want people to actually buy the expansion.

Healix.5819:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Yes, it says that 25 people have posted 40 times each and check back frequently to see if they’ve gotten a response.

For accuracy, this topic has 1031 posts by 367 users. Vayne is leading with 78 posts, more than double the next. 281 users have less than 3 posts in this topic, while 15 have more than 10. 218 haven’t posted within the last 90 days, while 31 made their last post in this topic.

(I cache the forums)

Thank you.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know I think vocal minority is a very important concept.

Of course only Anet has any idea whether a POV on the forums is a minority and they aren’t likely to tell us. So anyone making statements on the forums about a POV being a minority doesn’t know what they are talking about.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

To be fair, at the very least, it says that a vocal minority feel passionately that the new zones are too difficult to solo.

In ANet’s shoes, I would take note and start communicating more clearly that expansions change the game in all sorts of ways and that people need to be ready to adapt.

Raine.1394:

And, I’d be careful when using the term “vocal minority” as it’s usually merely a rhetorical device used to bolster an actual minority opinion on the forums.

You need to re-read what I wrote a couple of times. The rhetorical phrase, “at the very least” indicates that, you know, it can’t be any less. I was establishing that idea that ANet ought to take notice, that there are people who feel very strongly about this.

So, be careful when using the rhetorical device of criticizing the motivation of a poster. First, you probably should argue your case on the merits anyhow and second, make sure that quote you’re trying to marginalize is something you actually disagree with.

Plautze.6290:

If the haters would not hate so much and play HoT instead, maybe they would be having fun with it by now…?

Does eating bugs more often help you to enjoy eating bugs? No? You’re just not eating them often enough.

Djinn.9245:

Now I find out that the “higher challenge” info tended to be in places that only very dedicated MMO players will look, so no, we should not have known before we bought HoT.

To be more realistic, they said the game was going to be more challenging in the details about the expansion.

From the emails they sent out, or buy.guildwars2.com > learn more >

https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/maguuma

The jungle represents a challenge for you to overcome. Creatures within it use our new advanced AI, making the fights you encounter harder, giving you the opportunity to work with your friends and put your abilities to the test in battling Mordremoth’s forces and the deadly inhabitants of the jungle. As you progress your Masteries, you’ll find new ways to move through the map and unlock areas you couldn’t reach previously, as well as new ways to overcome your foes.

For those simply playing the game, ArenaNet has increased the difficulty with every major content update. The difficulty has always been complained about, right from the first beta, or Orr at launch. Only those that started after the new player experience and stopped playing at the end of the personal story would have never known.

Anet may have “addressed” the difficulty with each update, but it wasnt as steep as HoT.

slashlizardy.9167:

but it wasnt as steep as HoT.

But is it, really? Enemies deal more damage, but they have half the health. On one of my more recent runs for example, I did a zerker pistol/pistol thief in only rares where unload would instantly kill almost every enemy. Powering through the core game was legitimately more challenging, as in being in Cursed Shore at level 78 wearing level 60-70 gear (what’s provided).

How does traveling through VB compare to Southsun, which was GW2’s first true endgame zone. Southsun is full of veterans with retaliation and enemies dealing higher damage. For comparison, a smokescale is going to mow you down within their assault, but they have like 10k health. A reef drake in melee is going to kill you just as quick with their puddle of death while having probably 5x as much health.

Remember pre-nerf season 2, where the wolves had retaliation and high crit damage and the spinners had to be attacked from behind? The wolf packs were more deadly than anything in HoT, as their leaps would take out half your health and the retaliation would kill you.

The problem is that simply playing through the game takes you from Orr to the historical S1 video to HoT, and unlike launch, new players are going through Orr with better gear.

I started after LS1 so yes, I would have had better gear before I got to Orr or Southsun, so I didn’t notice any challenge. In fact, I don’t think I found Orr till much later when I was finally getting around to map completing for first leggie.

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Now I find out that the “higher challenge” info tended to be in places that only very dedicated MMO players will look, so no, we should not have known before we bought HoT.

To be more realistic, they said the game was going to be more challenging in the details about the expansion.

From the emails they sent out, or buy.guildwars2.com > learn more >

https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/maguuma

The jungle represents a challenge for you to overcome. Creatures within it use our new advanced AI, making the fights you encounter harder, giving you the opportunity to work with your friends and put your abilities to the test in battling Mordremoth’s forces and the deadly inhabitants of the jungle. As you progress your Masteries, you’ll find new ways to move through the map and unlock areas you couldn’t reach previously, as well as new ways to overcome your foes.

For those simply playing the game, ArenaNet has increased the difficulty with every major content update. The difficulty has always been complained about, right from the first beta, or Orr at launch. Only those that started after the new player experience and stopped playing at the end of the personal story would have never known.

Well, at least you found one sentence indicating higher difficulty in a place where many people would reasonably find it. Of course that’s a very long page with only that one sentence…

As for regular increased difficulty, I and many others on the forums agree that HoT was a different order of increase than any other update. And the difficulty is not only encounters but even finding them lol.

It is also different because you are expected to spend a significant portion of your time there in order to get HP for your Specialization. I can run down to Orr, do a couple of things and then go do something else. If I’m working on my Elite Specialization, there really is no other place to reasonably work on HP.

Djinn.9245:

there really is no other place to reasonably work on HP.

WvW. :>

cranos.5913:

Djinn.9245:

there really is no other place to reasonably work on HP.

WvW. :>

I wish I had known about that little trick before I started getting specializations on my alts.

Djinn.9245:

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Now I find out that the “higher challenge” info tended to be in places that only very dedicated MMO players will look, so no, we should not have known before we bought HoT.

To be more realistic, they said the game was going to be more challenging in the details about the expansion.

From the emails they sent out, or buy.guildwars2.com > learn more >

https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/maguuma

The jungle represents a challenge for you to overcome. Creatures within it use our new advanced AI, making the fights you encounter harder, giving you the opportunity to work with your friends and put your abilities to the test in battling Mordremoth’s forces and the deadly inhabitants of the jungle. As you progress your Masteries, you’ll find new ways to move through the map and unlock areas you couldn’t reach previously, as well as new ways to overcome your foes.

For those simply playing the game, ArenaNet has increased the difficulty with every major content update. The difficulty has always been complained about, right from the first beta, or Orr at launch. Only those that started after the new player experience and stopped playing at the end of the personal story would have never known.

Well, at least you found one sentence indicating higher difficulty in a place where many people would reasonably find it. Of course that’s a very long page with only that one sentence…

As for regular increased difficulty, I and many others on the forums agree that HoT was a different order of increase than any other update. And the difficulty is not only encounters but even finding them lol.

It is also different because you are expected to spend a significant portion of your time there in order to get HP for your Specialization. I can run down to Orr, do a couple of things and then go do something else. If I’m working on my Elite Specialization, there really is no other place to reasonably work on HP.

yup it was an expansion, and the expansion content was primarily distributed amongst the new expansion zones, no real surprises there. You weren’t expected to do anything though, you do what you want. That’s why you never hear the vast majority complaining in game, those that enjoy the hot content do it, those that don’t don’t.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Djinn.9245:

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Now I find out that the “higher challenge” info tended to be in places that only very dedicated MMO players will look, so no, we should not have known before we bought HoT.

To be more realistic, they said the game was going to be more challenging in the details about the expansion.

From the emails they sent out, or buy.guildwars2.com > learn more >

https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/maguuma

The jungle represents a challenge for you to overcome. Creatures within it use our new advanced AI, making the fights you encounter harder, giving you the opportunity to work with your friends and put your abilities to the test in battling Mordremoth’s forces and the deadly inhabitants of the jungle. As you progress your Masteries, you’ll find new ways to move through the map and unlock areas you couldn’t reach previously, as well as new ways to overcome your foes.

For those simply playing the game, ArenaNet has increased the difficulty with every major content update. The difficulty has always been complained about, right from the first beta, or Orr at launch. Only those that started after the new player experience and stopped playing at the end of the personal story would have never known.

Well, at least you found one sentence indicating higher difficulty in a place where many people would reasonably find it. Of course that’s a very long page with only that one sentence…

As for regular increased difficulty, I and many others on the forums agree that HoT was a different order of increase than any other update. And the difficulty is not only encounters but even finding them lol.

It is also different because you are expected to spend a significant portion of your time there in order to get HP for your Specialization. I can run down to Orr, do a couple of things and then go do something else. If I’m working on my Elite Specialization, there really is no other place to reasonably work on HP.

yup it was an expansion, and the expansion content was primarily distributed amongst the new expansion zones, no real surprises there. You weren’t expected to do anything though, you do what you want. That’s why you never hear the vast majority complaining in game, those that enjoy the hot content do it, those that don’t don’t.

I was responding to Healix who was comparing HoT to other added content.

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

To be fair, at the very least, it says that a vocal minority feel passionately that the new zones are too difficult to solo.

In ANet’s shoes, I would take note and start communicatating more clearly that expansions change the game in all sorts of ways and that people need to be ready to adapt.

Yes: “Be warned that we are going to change the game you love into something completely different!” No, I don’t think they’re going to say that to the vast majority of their players. I’m pretty sure that there is a good reason why the more generic areas that people go to get info on HoT (the webpage duh) don’t have even a tiny mention of higher difficulty. They want people to actually buy the expansion.

Except the game didn’t change that drastically for all of us. You think the game has changed significantly but having done all the achievements in Living World Season 2, some of which were quite hard, I didn’t find the game changed.

The fact is, HoT was a good continuation of the game I was already playing.

What you’re really saying is if a person stood in Queensdale all day and that was their game, they shouldn’t expect the game to get any harder when new content isn’t introduced because they’ve decided Queensdale is the game.

But Queensdale isn’t the game. Dungeons are part of the game too. Fractals are part of the game. Living World Sesaon 2…part of the game.

The game didn’t change. People just ignored parts of it.

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know I think vocal minority is a very important concept.

Of course only Anet has any idea whether a POV on the forums is a minority and they aren’t likely to tell us. So anyone making statements on the forums about a POV being a minority doesn’t know what they are talking about.

But Anet did say something. They said that the problem with the HoT sales not meeting expectations were with new free to play players not upgrading to HOT. They have no idea why those players didn’t upgrade any more than you or I do.

The thing is I’m not coming to the forums stating strongly that HOT isn’t soloable. I’m refuting people who claim it isn’t because I factually solo a good portion of it.

When people come to forums and express their view in the strongest manner possible, using hyperbole or exaageration or even straight up misinformation, then someone is going to post back and state their opinion. That’s sort of what forums are for.

But I’m not even sure how Anet can know that difficulty is the reason HOT didn’t sell as well as expected. It could have just been bad publicity. People saying stuff is often enough to put people off from spending money.

My own pet theory is that it’s simply too expensive for what it offers.

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

To be fair, at the very least, it says that a vocal minority feel passionately that the new zones are too difficult to solo.

In ANet’s shoes, I would take note and start communicatating more clearly that expansions change the game in all sorts of ways and that people need to be ready to adapt.

Yes: “Be warned that we are going to change the game you love into something completely different!”

For the most part Anet didn’t change the existing game. They expanded the totality of what was available. If I map into Orr today, not only is it not completely different, it is largely the same region that I have loved since first encountering it.

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

To be fair, at the very least, it says that a vocal minority feel passionately that the new zones are too difficult to solo.

In ANet’s shoes, I would take note and start communicatating more clearly that expansions change the game in all sorts of ways and that people need to be ready to adapt.

Yes: “Be warned that we are going to change the game you love into something completely different!”

For the most part Anet didn’t change the existing game. They expanded the totality of what was available. If I map into Orr today, not only is it not completely different, it is largely the same region that I have loved since first encountering it.

When there is an MMO expansion, generally people move into that expansion unless they are creating a new character or for limited time to accomplish some specific thing. This is what I was referring to.

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

To be fair, at the very least, it says that a vocal minority feel passionately that the new zones are too difficult to solo.

In ANet’s shoes, I would take note and start communicatating more clearly that expansions change the game in all sorts of ways and that people need to be ready to adapt.

Yes: “Be warned that we are going to change the game you love into something completely different!”

For the most part Anet didn’t change the existing game. They expanded the totality of what was available. If I map into Orr today, not only is it not completely different, it is largely the same region that I have loved since first encountering it.

When there is an MMO expansion, generally people move into that expansion unless they are creating a new character or for limited time to accomplish some specific thing. This is what I was referring to.

In a traditional MMO where they raise the level cap, this is true. In a game where there’s no downleveling this is true. But this game isn’t like those other games, which is why some of us have come here.

In other MMO an earlier zone becomes pointless. Not so here.

Runiir.6425:

As for where people who want a challenge should go? Open world and story content should be soloable. If you want a challenge…that is what veteran modes, dungeons, raids, and instanced off areas are for. The meta bosses fit this description as well. Just getting around a map should never be challenging. Apparently enough people consider HoT maps too challenging to just explore. We might not see it that way but it is a completely valid concern. I hear most of the problems though are related to the fact the minimap is of almost no help in getting around HoT maps. If they could fix this people might stop complaining about the vertical map complaints.

Another often seen complaint is the fact so many of the hero challenges in HoT require a group. These things should only spawn champs if they sense 4+ people within range, like 1200 of the challenge. Otherwise, just spawn a dang vet or silver and call it done. They are supposed to be hero challenges, not group challenges. Otherwise I expect group reward (IE drop dungeon loot/tokens/map currency).

Break bars are another issue of contention as they negate many fun builds from being playable. As I have seen and used myself as an example, sword/sword – rifle warrior is a popular and fun build that is nigh unplayable in HoT. Because of the breakbar and reliance on AoE damage to survive encounters in the new maps. This is a dev issue as it is bad game design to allow any POSSIBLE build to be kitten in such a way. Every weapon should be capable of breaking a break bar, just add an effect to one of the attacks so the weapons can continue to be viable.

These being just some of the issues I see brought up in map chats, and here.

So you’ve determined that I should be forced to raid and run dungeons to find a challenge? And who made you king, bud?

As a mostly solo open world player, I happen to enjoy the challenge and complexity in the HoT maps. In fact, in my opinion it is what GW2 does better than any other MMO out there and it’s the primary reason I was attracted to this game. Pick any other game mode and there is an MMO that does it better. And you want to kill my playground because you think open world content should come in only one flavor? I don’t think so.

Learn to compromise. You don’t see me demanding that they stop designing maps the way they have in LS3, do you? You can have all the flat, non-meta maps you want. But don’t demand that other players can never have what they want just because you don’t like the design.

And as usual, your complaint regarding breakbars is complete nonsense. You can run sword/sword-rifle in HoT without issue. If your weapon set is light on CC and you know you’re going to need it (Hint: Many enemies with breakbars actually don’t require you to break them in order to win!), warrior is armed to the teeth with CC utility options. Stop making a big deal about nothing. You’re simply wrong on this one.

All that time spent arguing on the forums, that could’ve been spent improving instead…

Queue: EYE OF THE TIGER.

TwiceDead.1963:

All that time spent arguing on the forums, that could’ve been spent improving instead…

Queue: EYE OF THE TIGER.

Word.

Poor horse.

=P

Healix.5819:

Ardid.7203:

You can’t expect to get fun from soccer by just staying idly next to the goal.
You can’t aspire to get fun from crosswords if you take the answers from a dictionary.
You can’t demand to get fun from chess if you refuse to learn how to move the pieces, (Or if you are not willing to lose).

Some people find it fun to watch.

A dictionary isn’t going to help, but regardless, some find the simple completion of something fun.

You can play virtual chess without knowing how to play. I remember doing just that back in the days of Windows 9x at school, as it was one the few games available, plus word pinball.

You can do all those things with GW2:

You can just watch broadcasts of other people playing.
You can get carried across content just pressing 1.
You can fumble around naked and without any build and get killed.

All these can be fun. None of these require the game to be “more soloable”.

scrumsome.7198:

Vayne.8563:

Of course before HOT many people were complaining the game was too easy. And yes, HoT is not friendly to new players…because it’s not meant to be new player content. It’s meant to be end game content.

You may be 100% correct, yet the “problem” persists!

Some customers (however few) leave – Even fewer joins: This is a VERY real problem for any entity outside the non-profit realm!

edit: Heck, even non-profit org’s offer less with fewer followers ;-)

Do you have sources to back this up? I don’t remember Anet public ally releasing active players counts on a regular basis and especially not with it segregated by new va old players. In fact, have they ever released any numbers since the infographic from 2012?

Ayrilana.1396:

scrumsome.7198:

Vayne.8563:

Of course before HOT many people were complaining the game was too easy. And yes, HoT is not friendly to new players…because it’s not meant to be new player content. It’s meant to be end game content.

You may be 100% correct, yet the “problem” persists!

Some customers (however few) leave – Even fewer joins: This is a VERY real problem for any entity outside the non-profit realm!

edit: Heck, even non-profit org’s offer less with fewer followers ;-)

Do you have sources to back this up? I don’t remember Anet public ally releasing active players counts on a regular basis and especially not with it segregated by new va old players. In fact, have they ever released any numbers since the infographic from 2012?

Does he really need to support a statement that essentially says that in general the player base declines as a game ages?

Ashen.2907:

Ayrilana.1396:

scrumsome.7198:

Vayne.8563:

Of course before HOT many people were complaining the game was too easy. And yes, HoT is not friendly to new players…because it’s not meant to be new player content. It’s meant to be end game content.

You may be 100% correct, yet the “problem” persists!

Some customers (however few) leave – Even fewer joins: This is a VERY real problem for any entity outside the non-profit realm!

edit: Heck, even non-profit org’s offer less with fewer followers ;-)

Do you have sources to back this up? I don’t remember Anet public ally releasing active players counts on a regular basis and especially not with it segregated by new va old players. In fact, have they ever released any numbers since the infographic from 2012?

Does he really need to support a statement that essentially says that in general the player base declines as a game ages?

Unless they blame it on HoT rather than the decline that most games naturally have over time.

Edit: Missed their clarification post

It would be nice if development took into consideration that the hot maps are much thinner in population, and toned down the challenges for hero points to help solo’s or maybe scale the bosses for group size. Its pretty miserable trying to get them alone and even worse with a lite armor class.

TwiceDead.1963:

All that time spent arguing on the forums, that could’ve been spent improving instead…

Queue: EYE OF THE TIGER.

I can browse the forums at work. I can’t play at work…

best game for solo player