Guild Wars 2

There’s an issue of the purchase page stating: “Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)”
No mention here (https://help.guildwars2.com/entries/94582027-Heart-of-Thorns-Pre-Purchase-FAQ) that this does not include a new copy of core for a returning customer.
No mention here (https://help.guildwars2.com/entries/94582027-Heart-of-Thorns-Pre-Purchase-FAQ) that this does not include a new copy of core for a returning customer.
Under US law the offer to purchase is an open purchase offer available to any member of the public who so chooses to accept by paying the provider. Once the money has been paid creating a contract as goods / compensation have been exchanged (key to purchaser, money to provider). The problem is as far as I have been able to see, except buried in some unhappy posts in this forum the Expansion is being offered on Pre-Purchase with, and only with, the core game included BUT not EXPLICITLY stating anywhere that the purchase of the expansion does not include a copy of the core game if the purchase is used on an existing account.
I would strongly urge that the language is changed on the appropriate shop and FAQ pages.
The fact that this does not include core for returning customer only seems to be on the forum / stated in service ticket responses where people asked for their new second account.
From a legal contract perspective I would change this: “Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)” to "Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game for new accounts created with this purchase) [emphasis added] ASAP. Under contract ArenaNet is offering Core + Expansion to every purchaser and only delivering Expansion to existing users. This opens them up to a class action law suit in the US, probably in Europe too considering the consumer protections.

This is not to be construed as a threat, a statement of filing suit, or anything else. But someone somewhere in the company should be aware that the way it currently reads is leaving NCSoft / ArenaNet open to a potential law suit or possible a class action law suit.
If I were part of the legal council for this company and aware of this I would immediately seek to rectify and mitigate this risk.

The scroll over on Basic does include: “A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.” which is still ambiguous based upon the placements of the “or” and “and” in that.
It’s ambiguous enough that there are threads here where people have filed complaints because they did not receive their included Guild Wars 2 core game.
I would probably change the scroll over on basic to read: “A game serial code for account creation including the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game and the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion; or an upgrade for an existing account including the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion.” in order to be clear as to what is being offered and sold.

I’m sure they have a legal team, if their legal team misses this, they should look for a new legal team. They might then have grounds to go after their now previous legal team … maybe.

I’m not a lawyer so I honestly have no idea if what I just said holds any water.

I am a lawyer, that’s why I brought it up.
Always in contracts it is best to be explicit and safe than vague and sorry.

Mooncaller.9634:

I am a lawyer, that’s why I brought it up.
Always in contracts it is best to be explicit and safe than vague and sorry.

Are you sure that there isnt any points about laywers not being allowed to make unsolicited legal advices to Anet in the EULA of the game/forum?

I mean we’re talking laywers here. It wouldnt surprise me.

The case is pretty simple imo:
HoT only contains the content from HoT (only few new areas)
You are NOT able to play this without the core game. The fact that you do get the base game for free doesn’t change this.
They always stated that you do need the core game for HoT so they technically never lied at you.
They still have the option of selling the core game and the expansion seperatly. But the fact that they don’t do it doesn’t affect the other statements.

Knock it off with the legal aspect. Any lawsuit has a kitten’s chance in Orr of success, and you (hopefully) know that. The real issue is the value offered for the money paid. Since the value isn’t (quite) there as far as we’ve been shown, simply vote with your (closed) wallet until A-net offers something at least slightly more attractive for the price.

Just throwing this out there but wouldn’t a simple “FAQ’s are subject to change at the discretion of Anet” have taken care of everything ?

Again, I’m not a lawyer so I’m honestly asking this question because I really don’t know if there needs to be more to it ?

Random.4691:

Just throwing this out there but wouldn’t a simple “FAQ’s are subject to change at the discretion of Anet” have taken care of everything ?

Again, I’m not a lawyer so I’m honestly asking this question because I really don’t know if there needs to be more to it ?

They have the right to do so. There is technically nothing wrong about it.
Yet they should do something for the players who bought it just because of that FAQ in order to restore their good reputation.

I completely agree, I was curious if putting a sentence such as that at the top of their page would alleviate them from any future legal issues. The question itself is what I’m curious about, not whether or not they have the right without it.

The full terms and conditions are not on the advert, nor do they need to be. I’m sure when you purchase the game/pre-purchase that the full terms of service regarding the expansion pack are explained (that most people skip past and click “I Accept” anyway).

I’m not a lawyer, but I have worked in retail and I do know that advertising posters and such in retail are not required to show the full Terms & Conditions on an advertising/marketing poster, only during when purchase is being made.

The full terms of service link is available before you purchase is available at the bottom of the page when you click ‘Add to Basket’ and look like this:

“Privacy Policy Terms of Sale Cookies Cancellation Right Legal Notice”

So they are fully above board.

No, once a contract is formed (through purchase) you can’t retrospectively change the terms of the contract unless the contract specifically & clearly states that it’s a contract term.

Even then, there are limits. If the value of the purchased goods/services is materially less than the original offer to the extent that the buyer would not have made the purchase otherwise, then you have solid grounds for a case under contract law, and/or existing “bait and switch” statutes/common law.

scerevisiae.1972:

No, once a contract is formed (through purchase) you can’t retrospectively change the terms of the contract unless the contract specifically & clearly states that it’s a contract term.

Even then, there are limits. If the value of the purchased goods/services is materially less than the original offer to the extent that the buyer would not have made the purchase otherwise, then you have solid grounds for a case under contract law, and/or existing “bait and switch” statutes/common law.

^ This

They can only do what you agreed to on purchase. Later changes have no valid point before law, because you didn’t know it when purchasing.
Otherwise they could just add things like “you have to give us your house” with the reason, that you knew they had the right to change the agreement.

https://buy.guildwars2.com/store/defaults/en_US/DisplayDRTermsAndConditionsPage/eCommerceProvider.Digital+River%2C+Inc. this does not include any language regarding what is in the package or seemingly a right to modify what is being sold (in terms of packaging).
It does provide that those who click “buy” are providing an offer to purchase that they the merchant have a right to reject. But once they accept it (i.e. you get your email with your key or w/e) it has been an accepted binding agreement.
They also reserve the right to arbitration (usually does not hold up in class action suits as class action suits are generally held before a Federal District Court and have special rules that apply in determining whether or not a class exists, and thereby whether or not the suit can proceed).

https://buy.guildwars2.com/store/defaults/en_US/DisplayDRPrivacyPolicyPage/eCommerceProvider.Digital+River%2C+Inc. this also does not include a right to modify the package being delivered.

So, the following ambiguities still exist:
“Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion (includes Guild Wars 2 core game)” indicates that buying the expansion include the core game.
And “A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.” the placement of the “or” and “and” in this in addition to the prior quoted statement leave a latent ambiguity.

The FAQ’s being subject to change does not actually change the purchase rights / contract for purchasers under the prior FAQ. You would technically need a statement in there from the outset saying “sales and packaging subject to change” probably “without notice” and even then you might run risk of violating individual state’s contract laws. It’s murkier water than you want to be in.

As for any law suit not having a chance, I can’t speak to that. As stated there is no binding precedent on this type of thing. As a game developer / seller I wouldn’t want to be the one that A) pays the legal battle to settle the precedent, B) risk that precedent coming out against me, and C) having my name dragged through the legal mud and press that such a suit would entail. There’d be a lot of case law research, and possibly costly discovery, before anyone in such a suit would say “any lawsuit has a kitten’s chance in Orr of success” as this is, at least to my knowledge, uncharted territory. (Granted, if I am wrong and there is solid legal precedent to the contrary that anyone is privy to and I am not, I’d love it if someone would cite a case, this topic has become a lot more interesting to me in the last few days.)

There is perhaps one out contained here: https://buy.guildwars2.com/store/defaults/en_US/DisplayDRTermsAndConditionsPage/eCommerceProvider.Digital+River%2C+Inc.
1.3 ALL ORDERS ARE SUBJECT TO YOUR CONSENT TO ANY APPLICABLE LICENSE AGREEMENT OR USAGE TERMS IS DELIVERED WITH, INCLUDED IN, OR PRESENTED IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR PRODUCT OR DR SERVICE. If you do not agree to the license or usage terms once you see them, do not accept them and contact customer service.

The problem with this out is that somewhere before you receive and accept / apply your license there would need to be notification that your license is ONLY for expansion and not expansion and included core (like all sales documentation / FAQ). As I have not yet purchased expansion, I can’t speak to that, maybe some who have and read the agreement can. In such a case I would assume that failure to accept such a term IF included and customer support contacted would result in a full refund.

In terms of my post and user conduct:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/forum-code-of-conduct/
“Do not post legal action threads. Using the forums or PMs to encourage, promote, endorse, or incite any kind of legal action against the company or any individual is strictly prohibited. Such content will be removed, and the author’s posting privileges will be permanently revoked.”

As stated, I am not taking legal action, I am not encouraging other to take legal action, I have no plans to start, incite, or otherwise represent anyone in legal action.
I am simply bringing up that the sales documentation has ambiguities, these ambiguities have led to service tickets (one user, for example, was discussing their exasperation with it during today’s Twitch presentation of Points of Interest) and that if I were in charge of the FAQ / sales documentation I would clarify them so as to eliminate those ambiguities.

penelopehannibal.8947:

I’m not a lawyer, but I have worked in retail and I do know that advertising posters and such in retail are not required to show the full Terms & Conditions on an advertising/marketing poster, only during when purchase is being made.

This is not about them not giving you the full picture.

What they describe is different from what you buy. This is false advertising. There’s a misleading statement like “A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.”

This could either means 2 separate codes, or 1 code for both.

Daddar.5971:

Knock it off with the legal aspect. Any lawsuit has a kitten’s chance in Orr of success, and you (hopefully) know that.

I happen to know otherwise.

Daddar.5971:

Knock it off with the legal aspect. Any lawsuit has a kitten’s chance in Orr of success, and you (hopefully) know that. The real issue is the value offered for the money paid. Since the value isn’t (quite) there as far as we’ve been shown, simply vote with your (closed) wallet until A-net offers something at least slightly more attractive for the price.

lol have you seen some law suits out there and what actually passes? Sure a law suit would be ridiculous but it doesn’t mean its not plausible

This all getting ugly…

RabbitUp.8294:

penelopehannibal.8947:

I’m not a lawyer, but I have worked in retail and I do know that advertising posters and such in retail are not required to show the full Terms & Conditions on an advertising/marketing poster, only during when purchase is being made.

This is not about them not giving you the full picture.

What they describe is different from what you buy. This is false advertising. There’s a misleading statement like “A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.”

This could either means 2 separate codes, or 1 code for both.

This exactly and that’s why I opened a ticket only to be told yeah we didn’t mention the free core game was for only new players. A game code for item A AND item B. is ambiguous, poorly worded and can be taken either as A game code for each of the two items or a single game code that is both. (attached is the last GM reply I got. I purposefully did not include the GM’s name)

If new serial numbers being generated include the core game, then I don’t see how this is a bundle. It’s clearly not. A bundle would include more than one item. Anet is not selling the core game alone currently so I’m going to assume that the expansion version of Guild Wars 2 is now the core game. And if GW2: HoT is now the core game going forward then everyone is being made to repurchase the game in order to access the expansion (and that’s why there is no option to buy just the upgrade).

I missed the $10 sales because I couldn’t afford erroneous purchases at the time and was waiting for another sale for the core game. With their current wording lacking the exclusion or stipulations on getting the core game included I expected to get my bonus copy of the core game included too.

The invoice only shows Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns (Ultimate) and gives me one serial number. If the core was included as a bonus addition to the expansion I should have gotten two serial numbers to register. No where on the invoice or registration page does it say core only for new players.

I don’t fault companies like Comcast giving bonuses to new customers because they say up front in plain English that it is a new customer offer. I just want them to clarify their language and maybe give some consideration to folks re-buying the game.

RabbitUp.8294:

penelopehannibal.8947:

I’m not a lawyer, but I have worked in retail and I do know that advertising posters and such in retail are not required to show the full Terms & Conditions on an advertising/marketing poster, only during when purchase is being made.

This is not about them not giving you the full picture.

What they describe is different from what you buy. This is false advertising. There’s a misleading statement like “A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.”

This could either means 2 separate codes, or 1 code for both.

Actually, if you understood the American language(not English) and read that properly, then you would know that it’s one code, that includes both…i.e., it’s either an account upgrade to HoT if you already have the base game or a completely new game that includes the core game and HoT. That’s how I read it to begin with, it’s not my problem if most people don’t have good reading comprehension skills.

Zaklex.6308:

Actually, if you understood the American language(not English) and read that properly, then you would know that it’s one code, that includes both…i.e., it’s either an account upgrade to HoT if you already have the base game or a completely new game that includes the core game and HoT. That’s how I read it to begin with, it’s not my problem if most people don’t have good reading comprehension skills.

A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.

There are 2 main ways to read this:

1. This is a bundle that includes 2 items: a game code, and the GW2 core game

A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion

-and-

the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game

2. This is a single game code that includes 2 items, one of which offers a choice between 2 options

A game serial code for:

• account creation -or- upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion
• the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.

In either case, there’s no clause that you won’t receive the base game if you already own it.

Zaklex.6308:

RabbitUp.8294:

penelopehannibal.8947:

I’m not a lawyer, but I have worked in retail and I do know that advertising posters and such in retail are not required to show the full Terms & Conditions on an advertising/marketing poster, only during when purchase is being made.

This is not about them not giving you the full picture.

What they describe is different from what you buy. This is false advertising. There’s a misleading statement like “A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.”

This could either means 2 separate codes, or 1 code for both.

Actually, if you understood the American language(not English) and read that properly, then you would know that it’s one code, that includes both…i.e., it’s either an account upgrade to HoT if you already have the base game or a completely new game that includes the core game and HoT. That’s how I read it to begin with, it’s not my problem if most people don’t have good reading comprehension skills.

lol really..? American language not english? I am pretty sure we speak American ENGLISH in the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English

Oh for crying out loud…Stop with the “legal advice” crap… you guys don’t know jack.
I don’t like the price either, but all the “hurr hurr what you’re doing is illegal” garbage is laughable.

DarksunG.9537:

Oh for crying out loud…Stop with the “legal advice” crap… you guys don’t know jack

I’m not agreeing with people with legal advice, but how would you know better? The person who gave it is “supposedly” a lawyer and a few have already thought about it and have sent their complaints to ncsoft. If you know better and back it up with proof then do it, instead of claiming others of not knowing crap

I’m sure there’s enough fans out there to defend anet if it turned into a class action lawsuit. They’ll work their magic convincing the judge and jury how good anet have been to them in the past ^^ it works everytime in every thread ^^

RabbitUp.8294:

Daddar.5971:

Knock it off with the legal aspect. Any lawsuit has a kitten’s chance in Orr of success, and you (hopefully) know that.

I happen to know otherwise.

Virtual goods are adjudicated under a different set of rules than are physical goods, and you (presumably) know that too.

Here’s some relevant information ,for those who actually give a kitten: http://www.virtualpolicy.net/_Downloads/Documents/tVPN_WhitePaper-Virtual_Items_&_Public_Policy.pdf

It’s about false advertising, not the goods themselves.

RabbitUp.8294:

A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.

There are 2 main ways to read this:

1. This is a bundle that includes 2 items: a game code, and the GW2 core game

A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion

-and-

the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game

2. This is a single game code that includes 2 items, one of which offers a choice between 2 options

A game serial code for:

• account creation -or- upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion
• the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.

This.
The point being that the language is ambiguous.
As khani.4786 pointed out above, she has had policy told to her in a service ticket.
I believe that official policy has been stated in this forum by a mod / ArenaNet personnel.

I just think that the sales page and FAQ should be changed so that they unambiguously match what is being stated in response to forum posts / service tickets.

If there was no ambiguity then the question would not have been asked whether the HoT expansion includes a copy of the core for all purchasers and Khani would not have their service ticket.

My only legal advice here thus far has been to eliminate that ambiguity and have wording at location X explicitly match policy as put forth in locations Y and Z, where Y and Z are not associated with the sales page or FAQ (the places a reasonable person is likely to look to determine what they are purchasing.

Also, my legal advice isn’t directed to the user base, it is to the company, as the website FAQ and Shop are the places that don’t quite have all their ducks in a row.

Again, this is not to encourage, incite, promote, or propose a lawsuit, it is simply to point out a latent ambiguity in the hopes that it gets corrected.

Daddar.5971:

Here’s some relevant information ,for those who actually give a kitten: http://www.virtualpolicy.net/_Downloads/Documents/tVPN_WhitePaper-Virtual_Items_&_Public_Policy.pdf

Do you have a working link, I’d like to read the article.
Though, I’m not sure that virtualpolicy.net is a source for binding precedent (as opposed to a .gov source or case law). But I’m a nerd and I like to learn.

I asked my Lawyer as well a few days ago. What the OP is saying is correct.
For the past few days, I have been letting people know in map chat(specially map chats with a dev in it) and forums that this is indeed a case of false advertising.
However, all I really want is a good deal with HoT, be it I get a second core account(as advertised) or a character slot for my $50 worth.
I dont want Arenanet to get sued, I dont want GW2 to go down, I dont want HoT to come out as the biggest ripoff in gaming history either.
I am holding off on the purchase of HoT in the meantime.

Some gamers have become so extremely pathetic and entitled these days.

Mooncaller.9634:

Daddar.5971:

Here’s some relevant information ,for those who actually give a kitten: http://www.virtualpolicy.net/_Downloads/Documents/tVPN_WhitePaper-Virtual_Items_&_Public_Policy.pdf

Do you have a working link, I’d like to read the article.
Though, I’m not sure that virtualpolicy.net is a source for binding precedent (as opposed to a .gov source or case law). But I’m a nerd and I like to learn.

Sorry. Try this: http://www.virtualpolicy.net/tag/virtualitems

HoangAn.2085:

DarksunG.9537:

Oh for crying out loud…Stop with the “legal advice” crap… you guys don’t know jack

I’m not agreeing with people with legal advice, but how would you know better?

Oh i’m sorry, where did I say I knew better? Must have been right next to “we don’t know what were talking about so don’t talk about it.”

If the expansion comes bundled with the core game for $50 then I should get the core game (or an additional copy) regardless of whether I own it already or not if I am paying that $50.

To me this is no different than if Anet said they were only including the core game if you happened to be black. It should make no godkitten difference. If I pay $50 then I should get exactly what everyone else who pays $50 gets, regardless of any other factors.

Channel.9402:

I’m sure there’s enough fans out there to defend anet if it turned into a class action lawsuit. They’ll work their magic convincing the judge and jury how good anet have been to them in the past ^^ it works everytime in every thread ^^

What is stockholm syndrome?

DarksunG.9537:

HoangAn.2085:

DarksunG.9537:

Oh for crying out loud…Stop with the “legal advice” crap… you guys don’t know jack

I’m not agreeing with people with legal advice, but how would you know better?

Oh i’m sorry, where did I say I knew better? Must have been right next to “we don’t know what were talking about so don’t talk about it.”

lol how are you going to say “we” you should be just talking about yourself then if you have no proof to back up your statement

As a world famous physicist and Michelin star chef I say…

Yeah that takes me far in this world.

Since the discussion in this thread has derailed and is no longer constructive this thread is now closed.