(edited by SamTheGuardian.2938)
Unsustainable map design
1 2
The meta event cycles just take far too long.
When I played HoT maps, I found myself spending more time just waiting for new cycles to start and trying to get to populated maps that actually have people doing the meta event, than actually playing.
I can’t take any more of that. I’ve thrown in the towel. I’m not entering HoT maps again until they fix this rubbish game design.
As an interested observer, this is my concern, also. The meta events may be possible at certain times of the day with a dedicated group using the LFG system to bring interested parties into that shard. That’s cold comfort to those who play at odd hours for their region. One-and-done objectives like HC’s, on the other hand, may become a real problem for some players.
One-and-done objectives like HC’s are already a real problem. Most champs everywhere in the game can be beat solo – given enough time – but putting a timer on some of them means they can’t be done without a small group.
Optimal timing doesn’t always solve this problem, either. I play evenings and weekends USA and I still see more maps failing or thinly populated than I see ones that are full and the meta succeeds.
It’s also becoming more frequent for me to see plenty of people but no one is actually doing the events that lead up to the meta in the first place. It’s like players have given up on them succeeding, so they’re beginning to ignore them completely or they’re growing burned out and tired of doing them over and over. Not sure which it is. Possibly both.
But given what I’ve experienced THE FIRST 3 WEEKS of launch when everyone should be crazy excited and busy doing things in the new maps, this map event system will not be sustainable long term. Not even close.
Ascended armor isn’t required.
A lot of the walls are brought down by doing the first couple of events in the chains for each section.
Was helping a fellow guildie earlier today on Auric Basin map and I really feel sorry for people coming into the game at this stage. Not nearly enough people to bring the walls down so everything was gated. Not nearly enough to go for hero challenges, let alone the meta… What was a lot of fun the first few times through weeks ago but today was truly a horrible experience because of lack of players.
Use lfg.
Was helping a fellow guildie earlier today on Auric Basin map and I really feel sorry for people coming into the game at this stage. Not nearly enough people to bring the walls down so everything was gated. Not nearly enough to go for hero challenges, let alone the meta… What was a lot of fun the first few times through weeks ago but today was truly a horrible experience because of lack of players.
Use lfg.
We do this all the time.
It doesn’t always work out.
Was helping a fellow guildie earlier today on Auric Basin map and I really feel sorry for people coming into the game at this stage. Not nearly enough people to bring the walls down so everything was gated. Not nearly enough to go for hero challenges, let alone the meta… What was a lot of fun the first few times through weeks ago but today was truly a horrible experience because of lack of players.
Use lfg.
We do this all the time.
It doesn’t always work out.
That’s understandable since lfg is largely player driven. It’s up to people to decide when they want to taxi or not taxi. Sometimes players are more willing to do it than other players. So there are maps that are filled with people but no one advertises, so other players stay on less populated maps until more load in.
Was helping a fellow guildie earlier today on Auric Basin map and I really feel sorry for people coming into the game at this stage. Not nearly enough people to bring the walls down so everything was gated. Not nearly enough to go for hero challenges, let alone the meta… What was a lot of fun the first few times through weeks ago but today was truly a horrible experience because of lack of players.
Use lfg.
We do this all the time.
It doesn’t always work out.
That’s understandable since lfg is largely player driven. It’s up to people to decide when they want to taxi or not taxi. Sometimes players are more willing to do it than other players. So there are maps that are filled with people but no one advertises, so other players stay on less populated maps until more load in.
True. And sometimes people try really hard to fill a map by advertising and taxiing and not enough people answer the ads and join up.
And sometimes people succeed in filling up a map but the map empties out again halfway through the events and meta. Thus more time is lost/spent filling it back up.
Point is, so much trouble filling maps and having to hop maps and watching maps go south leads to frustration and burnout. Especially this early on in new content.
Not everyone has time to spend or wants to spend their time waiting around filling up an empty map or hopping around enough to find a full one in order to get things done.
And there are already so many reports of thinly populated maps and failing events and metas that I think keeping this system going long term is probably going to be a real problem.
Was helping a fellow guildie earlier today on Auric Basin map and I really feel sorry for people coming into the game at this stage. Not nearly enough people to bring the walls down so everything was gated. Not nearly enough to go for hero challenges, let alone the meta… What was a lot of fun the first few times through weeks ago but today was truly a horrible experience because of lack of players.
Use lfg.
We do this all the time.
It doesn’t always work out.
That’s understandable since lfg is largely player driven. It’s up to people to decide when they want to taxi or not taxi. Sometimes players are more willing to do it than other players. So there are maps that are filled with people but no one advertises, so other players stay on less populated maps until more load in.
True. And sometimes people try really hard to fill a map by advertising and taxiing and not enough people answer the ads and join up.
And sometimes people succeed in filling up a map but the map empties out again halfway through the events and meta. Thus more time is lost/spent filling it back up.
Point is, so much trouble filling maps and having to hop maps and watching maps go south leads to frustration and burnout. Especially this early on in new content.
Not everyone has time to spend or wants to spend their time waiting around filling up an empty map or hopping around enough to find a full one in order to get things done.
And there are already so many reports of thinly populated maps and failing events and metas that I think keeping this system going long term is probably going to be a real problem.
Yes, a lot of the map population issues is people driven. Especially with taxi’s not getting people because another map has already filled up with people. To me, its the same as what we experience with the Triple Wurm. Landing on a map populated map or trying to taxi into a full map. Or people trying to taxi for Triple Wurm and not getting any takers. The people issues with maps were here before HoT and they continue to this day. Megaserver does it best to alleviate this issue but player hopping with the LFG tool doesn’t help things either. Megaserver (algorithm driven) and LFG tool (player driven) seem to be fighting against each other imo, instead of working with one another.
On a high level view, its like players try to work together with Ai (megaserver) each with their own goals. I’m not sure if there is a solution for this because Megaserver goes by what Anet feels most players want. Each player look at different things when loading into maps. Some want to farm materials (flax), others want Hero Point trains, some want the Meta Event only, others just want to complete their story, and some just want to socialize or go afk on a map. Afk players filling maps is another issue and whether its justified to kick afk players off a map is debatable. Some people would argue that afk players are the reason why maps are full but seemingly empty. The megaserver, would need more information about each player preference to land them on the map they would want to be on.
Maybe that is an option? Have player set a default drop down to what type of map they want to be on farming, meta events, socializing, etc.? However, several players may feel that is too much work to do these extra clicks. Some may set a default type of map then use the LFG tool anyways. If you have any ideas or suggestions, for what megaserver should do I would list them here. Or make a new topic dedicated to megaserver so ArenaNet can see it.
Yes, a lot of the map population issues is people driven.
The people issues with maps were here before HoT and they continue to this day.
Yeah, but the difference is HoT map design exacerbates what is in Core Tyria a minor problem. Reward structures, event design, and scaling work very differently in the HoT maps than they do in Bloodtide Coast.
For instance, map completion items in Bloodtide Coast don’t require a significant group of people or frankly, any people, to be on the same map as me for me to progress my goals. It doesn’t require me being in the correct day/night cycle. The individual events scale better for soloing if I need to do so.
The mega-server system just needs to stop opening so many maps. Unless a map is almost full, do not open a new one. The way it is now it seems like there is 1-2 maps that get filled (via taxi) to run a meta and then 10 empty maps. In this scenario there should only be 3 maps open tops.
There is something that players can do to help though. TAG UP! People like to say that popping a tag is meaningless and that the tag owner might not even know what they are doing. But just having tags on the map makes people think it is organized so that they will actually participate. If someone is in a map that has no tags they will just leave or AFK even if the map has a lot of players that want to run the meta.
As an interested observer, this is my concern, also. The meta events may be possible at certain times of the day with a dedicated group using the LFG system to bring interested parties into that shard. That’s cold comfort to those who play at odd hours for their region. One-and-done objectives like HC’s, on the other hand, may become a real problem for some players.
Thankfully, HCs can be taken by little groups, so if people beg their friends or have some guildies online, they should be okay. It would take a pretty massive guild to succeed with a map meta, though.
It made sense when there was a single map meta event (Clockwork Chaos) in the game at a time. People would go there for living story and for loot and for achievements. But now there are more than five maps that have full-length meta events, and some take more than an hour (Dragon’s Stand). Far too much of a spread-out population. With more people (apparently) leaving on a daily basis, the events will only become less and less populated to the point of either no metas succeeding or only one succeeding at a time. With the latter scenario, the other map events would need to be left to time out, which could take 30 minutes or more.
Been there, punned that.
Ehmry Bay Guardian
Ehmry Bay Guardian
It made sense when there was a single map meta event (Clockwork Chaos) in the game at a time. People would go there for living story and for loot and for achievements. But now there are more than five maps that have full-length meta events, and some take more than an hour (Dragon’s Stand). Far too much of a spread-out population. With more people (apparently) leaving on a daily basis, the events will only become less and less populated to the point of either no metas succeeding or only one succeeding at a time. With the latter scenario, the other map events would need to be left to time out, which could take 30 minutes or more.
Yep and the situation should have been foreseen especially tying map completion into it.
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
I believe the megaserver is to blame. We had the problem of empty servers before, megaserver came. Now we still have empty maps and it makes no sense. Why do -I get a prompt to leave my empty map and I’m shuffled into another empty map? I’d understand if I got the prompt and BAM! Full map! Ton of people running around!
Sometimes it feels like there are an actual 50-60 people playing GW2.
What is the player cap per map shard, anyway? New areas seem large and convoluted enough to handle an expanded population but I do not know if the servers can handle more.
I believe the megaserver is to blame. We had the problem of empty servers before, megaserver came. Now we still have empty maps and it makes no sense. Why do -I get a prompt to leave my empty map and I’m shuffled into another empty map? I’d understand if I got the prompt and BAM! Full map! Ton of people running around!
Sometimes it feels like there are an actual 50-60 people playing GW2.
The mega server was supposed to make the maps fuller. What it feels like in HoT is that there’s 8 empty copies of a map for every 1 or 2 full one. I get shuffled regularly from one empty map to another and, yeah, I wonder…why? I could have stayed on the empty map I was in four maps ago. No difference.
I believe the megaserver is to blame. We had the problem of empty servers before, megaserver came. Now we still have empty maps and it makes no sense. Why do -I get a prompt to leave my empty map and I’m shuffled into another empty map? I’d understand if I got the prompt and BAM! Full map! Ton of people running around!
Sometimes it feels like there are an actual 50-60 people playing GW2.
The mega server was supposed to make the maps fuller. What it feels like in HoT is that there’s 8 empty copies of a map for every 1 or 2 full one. I get shuffled regularly from one empty map to another and, yeah, I wonder…why? I could have stayed on the empty map I was in four maps ago. No difference.
Yup, it’s an issue. I’m guessing it has something to do with raid queues? (Technically the maps aren’t empty?) Could be wrong.
Been there, punned that.
Ehmry Bay Guardian
Ehmry Bay Guardian
I believe the megaserver is to blame. We had the problem of empty servers before, megaserver came. Now we still have empty maps and it makes no sense. Why do -I get a prompt to leave my empty map and I’m shuffled into another empty map? I’d understand if I got the prompt and BAM! Full map! Ton of people running around!
Sometimes it feels like there are an actual 50-60 people playing GW2.
The mega server was supposed to make the maps fuller. What it feels like in HoT is that there’s 8 empty copies of a map for every 1 or 2 full one. I get shuffled regularly from one empty map to another and, yeah, I wonder…why? I could have stayed on the empty map I was in four maps ago. No difference.
What’s likely happening is this. There are a number of maps in existence at any given time. They continue to exist based on a number in the program (i.e., the number below which the map-closing process begins). People are assigned to maps based on the party/guild/server arguments in the algorithms.
As people taxi to one map based on LFG posts, the other maps lose players. If they reach the low-pop threshold the close process begins. If maps aren’t closing when this happens, then the number needed to start that process is too low in relation to the number needed to progress the meta, especially if some percentage of the people in the map are doing something else.
What’s you’re describing is likely the result of the number needed to progress a meta being too large in relation to the number needed to start map closure. More concretely (using arbitrary numbers to illustrate), let’s say it takes 50 people to progress a map meta, and numbers under 25 generate map closure. Maps can easily absorb 25 players doing exploration, etc. while leaving the impression no one else is there. There’s also the possible issue that if (a) meta map(s) is full, then the game has limited options with regard to which maps to assign players to.
I’m spit-balling here, because I don’t know the numbers plugged into either subroutine in the game. However, this is the most likely explanation I can think of to explain the perceived issue. If I’m right, the issue is that: it takes x players to move a meta; and that even if multiple other map populations are combined, enough of those players are not there specifically for the meta. Unfortunately, the closure number has to be significantly smaller than the meta completion number or maps on the cusp might be closed during possible completion.
One solution, as someone in some thread suggested, would be for players to step up and organize the unorganized maps. However, those organizing are often doing so on behalf of a guild, and the leftovers are mostly (if not all) those who are not inclined to organize. Personally, were I to own HoT, I would not be inclined to organize. If I were still interested in organizing a large group of players, I’d still be playing WoW.
What is the player cap per map shard, anyway? New areas seem large and convoluted enough to handle an expanded population but I do not know if the servers can handle more.
Approximately 150 players
I believe the megaserver is to blame. We had the problem of empty servers before, megaserver came. Now we still have empty maps and it makes no sense. Why do -I get a prompt to leave my empty map and I’m shuffled into another empty map? I’d understand if I got the prompt and BAM! Full map! Ton of people running around!
Sometimes it feels like there are an actual 50-60 people playing GW2.
I get shuffled regularly from one empty map to another and, yeah, I wonder…why? I could have stayed on the empty map I was in four maps ago. No difference.
It’s because people are leaving the map for others ones, probably by using the LFG Tool.
Megaserver does it best to alleviate this issue but player hopping with the LFG tool doesn’t help things either. Megaserver (algorithm driven) and LFG tool (player driven) seem to be fighting against each other imo, instead of working with one another.
On a high level view, its like players try to work together with Ai (megaserver) each with their own goals. I’m not sure if there is a solution for this because Megaserver goes by what Anet feels most players want.
Yes, there could be a solution. If people could see the list of “map instances/overflows” and choose one of their own without Ai. To choose a map Version/instance (like in GW1) is a player request I see from the first day, the megaserver-maps where announced from A-Net.
A solution to this will be on the Gem Store soon!
One foot out the door, yet again.
The meta event cycles just take far too long.
This. I’ve said time and time and time again, including when Dry Top and Silverwastes were the current metas, that these meta events take way too long to complete. They are essentially open world dungeons, and in conflict with what made vanilla GW2 so great, that you could find a world boss or other fun event, complete it in 20 minutes or less, and then move on to something else halfway across the world, or on a different character, and not miss out on anything.
They need to tighten these metas up, make it so that you don’t have late phases that rely on early phases, so that if a map starts loading right before any event phase starts, if you can pack the map and organize it it time then you have great odds at completing it for maximum credit possible.
I believe the megaserver is to blame. We had the problem of empty servers before, megaserver came. Now we still have empty maps and it makes no sense. Why do -I get a prompt to leave my empty map and I’m shuffled into another empty map? I’d understand if I got the prompt and BAM! Full map! Ton of people running around!
I do think this is an error on their part. I think that what happens is that there are periods where you have, say, ten relatively full maps, and then because some big events end and people move on, almost all of those maps drop from nearly full to fairly low. The lowest maps then get called on to move to a new map, but the highest ones are still fairly high, so they get moved to the medium ones, where they are still busy clearing out.
Then those medium ones keep having people leaving, just slower than on the lowest ones, and when they go, the medium ones are too low as well, so they send you on, and so on.
What they should do, if they intend to keep the random “we place you” system, is try harder to “pack” maps, have a higher soft cap relative to the hard cap, and move people from lowest-pop maps to the highest possible ones that haven’t hard capped yet, rather than to maps that are on the bubble already.
Ideally though, they would let us pick our own maps! Pick them off of a list, a list that has the populations next to the name, so that you would know that you were joining in on a map that was near the hard cap, or relatively low population. Ideally players would even be able to “nickname” maps via some sort of map voting process, so that you could see that a map is labeled “meta event,” or “HP rush,” or “Casual/exploration” and know what you’re getting into. If all you want to do is chase HPs, then the meta maps would not find much help for you. If all you want to do is explore the map or run achievements/adventures, whatever, then you wouldn’t want to get onto a map trying for meta runs.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Megaserver does it best to alleviate this issue but player hopping with the LFG tool doesn’t help things either. Megaserver (algorithm driven) and LFG tool (player driven) seem to be fighting against each other imo, instead of working with one another.
On a high level view, its like players try to work together with Ai (megaserver) each with their own goals. I’m not sure if there is a solution for this because Megaserver goes by what Anet feels most players want.
Yes, there could be a solution. If people could see the list of “map instances/overflows” and choose one of their own without Ai. To choose a map Version/instance (like in GW1) is a player request I see from the first day, the megaserver-maps where announced from A-Net.
I forgot about the district system in GW1, to be honest I never saw the full benefit of having it until these posts today. You’re right, it would help a lot. People could choose their own arbitrary names like Cathan New Year district one being sponsored. Except in GW2 it would be, shard one Meta Event map.
Was helping a fellow guildie earlier today on Auric Basin map and I really feel sorry for people coming into the game at this stage.
That’s perhaps a bit hyperbolic, I’ve seen Auric Basin meta completed recently, so maybe it’s a matter of when you play, how many afk-ers there are or people doing HP etc.
But I will agree to long term sustainability. Although Dry Top and Silverwastes are still fairly active, but the design there is a bit different.
Still a better system to replace LFG would be ideal, megaservers seems so so when it comes to sorting out map populations.
(edited by CureForLiving.5360)
Map wide long meta events just don’t work. It is bad idea and will mostly annoy players.
If they really want to have long and complacted event chains involving hundred people, these should happen in separate instance, call it dungeon, fractal, raid or whatever new name to put on same thing. The open world map is then left for people to gather flax, explore, gain hero points, glide for fun and other things you normally do.
Events in instance means everyone joins it for one goal and once that goal, which involves usually killing some monster, is finished, everyone leaves.
I think SW works cause the progress is driven by the players rather than the clock. TBH its almost unbelievable that they had found a good model for their event driven game and they ruin it with the xpac. It doesn’t like they foresaw declining population issues and what it would mean for the meta events or that the mega server tech is somewhat problematical.
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
(edited by morrolan.9608)
the new maps should work like SW, they only progress, when you complete events, not be on a clock, I’ve never done a DS or TD map, I always seem to miss them, or I join an empty map, then go through the motions of going through 3-4 closing maps.
I’m done with HoT now anyway, I’ll only be going back for story. I’ve no interest in playing when the game tell’s me I can.
i5 4690K @ 3.5Mhz|8GB HyperX Savage 1600mHz|MSI H81M-E34|MSI GTX 960 Gaming 2GB|
|Seasonic S12G 650W|Win10 Pro X64| Corsair Spec 03 Case|
|Seasonic S12G 650W|Win10 Pro X64| Corsair Spec 03 Case|
I think SW works cause the progress is driven by the players rather than the clock. TBH its almost unbelievable that they had found a good model for their even driven game and they ruin it with the xpac.
The expansion even introduced a mechanic that would stop behaviour like the “breach hopping” that’s going on in Silverwastes.
Silverwastes scheduling with HoT participation level tracking, it seems like a no-brainer.
I’ll be playing HoT again when it’s implemented.
the new maps should work like SW, they only progress, when you complete events, not be on a clock, I’ve never done a DS or TD map, I always seem to miss them, or I join an empty map, then go through the motions of going through 3-4 closing maps.
there are timers for them (which it would help if they were actually IN the game). It’s a bad idea to enter these maps with the intention of running the meta unless you do them, at the right time.
Overall, until they do get the “select the map off a list” model working, I like the schedules better than the SW alternative, it lets you plan ahead better rather than having to continually check LFG to see if a map is taxiing. I just wish that the schedules were sped up, so that they were faster start to finish and went off more times per day, allowing you to more easily fit them into your own schedule.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
the new maps should work like SW, they only progress, when you complete events, not be on a clock, I’ve never done a DS or TD map, I always seem to miss them, or I join an empty map, then go through the motions of going through 3-4 closing maps.
there are timers for them (which it would help if they were actually IN the game). It’s a bad idea to enter these maps with the intention of running the meta unless you do them, at the right time.
Overall, until they do get the “select the map off a list” model working, I like the schedules better than the SW alternative, it lets you plan ahead better rather than having to continually check LFG to see if a map is taxiing. I just wish that the schedules were sped up, so that they were faster start to finish and went off more times per day, allowing you to more easily fit them into your own schedule.
but they don’t fit into my schedule, I get to play little and often, last Monday was the first time I did a VB all the way through to T4. where kitten I’ve lost count as to how many times I’ve done that, because it’s always on. I don’t need to go and look for a timer. I should not have to go and look for anything, other than in game. why they can’t have an in game announcement is beyond me. they had one with scarlet’s attacks. The more people talk about it, the more it seems like ANet is just being lazy, or rushing stuff.
I’m not saying making a game is easy, far from it. I have enjoyed HoT’s story a lot, I’m on my 3rd play through. I really believe the HoT meta events should have something like a 15-30 min cool down at most. look how the SW works. even when it’s on cool down, there are champs to kill the maze to run. there are things to keep you going. DS is like, thanks for coming, the map will close soon.
i5 4690K @ 3.5Mhz|8GB HyperX Savage 1600mHz|MSI H81M-E34|MSI GTX 960 Gaming 2GB|
|Seasonic S12G 650W|Win10 Pro X64| Corsair Spec 03 Case|
|Seasonic S12G 650W|Win10 Pro X64| Corsair Spec 03 Case|
Overall, until they do get the “select the map off a list” model working, I like the schedules better than the SW alternative, it lets you plan ahead better rather than having to continually check LFG to see if a map is taxiing. I just wish that the schedules were sped up, so that they were faster start to finish and went off more times per day, allowing you to more easily fit them into your own schedule.
The LFG system is due for an overhaul anyway. Last time I checked it, it was useless. Many dozens of entries, many of them without any description at all or in the wrong category. By the time you reach the bottom, new ones have been inserted among the list you’ve just looked at. Why are new LFGs not just added at the bottom?
It needs more specific categories for open world, perhaps some filters, and definitely a more intuitive way of presenting new entries.
The LFG system is due for an overhaul anyway.
I don’t know if it’s because the list is so clogged with so many different groups or what, but I’m having an increasingly hard time getting people to answer ads for taxiing them into maps attempting metas. People simply aren’t answering them or joining up in the numbers they would earlier on.
Or maybe they’re just tired of ads for metas they believe will fail anyway or they’ve seen too many groups claiming “organized map” only to enter and find out how far from the truth that was. shrugs I dunno, but it’s getting to be discouraging.
The LFG system is due for an overhaul anyway.
I don’t know if it’s because the list is so clogged with so many different groups or what, but I’m having an increasingly hard time getting people to answer ads for taxiing them into maps attempting metas. People simply aren’t answering them or joining up in the numbers they would earlier on.
Or maybe they’re just tired of ads for metas they believe will fail anyway or they’ve seen too many groups claiming “organized map” only to enter and find out how far from the truth that was. shrugs I dunno, but it’s getting to be discouraging.
Getting lied to on the LFG sucks. Sucks more when you leave the party and try to use LFG again it says you’ve joined too many parties. Like jeez I’m sorry LFG my bad I can’t just magically tell that some parties are lying.
And I agree with you about the people not joining part. I try to taxi people in on VB/AB/DS maps that have a decent chance. Noone joins.
I am noticing that things seem distinctly more deserted now that raids are out. Not really a surprise though. It’s one reason why the vanilla GW2 team never would have supported the idea of raids. Instancing people means there are less to play with each other in open world cooperative content.
Same thing with fractals and dungeons to a point (at least they are smaller and generally less of an ongoing time sink though).
Some will probably trickle back when the hype dies down, but it’s hard to say. It could actually get worse over time as the details of legendary armor come to the forefront, the jealousy sets in, and people start flooding raids with “I want that too” syndrome.
That said, I agree with the others that SW’s model was great (so why break it?). The only reason a decent SW map goes by so fast now is because people have sorted out the mechanics and the teamwork and largely don’t make big blunders (like losing a fort or two). This whole thing about timers and cooldowns needs to go. All you are doing is taking choice out of the equation, discouraging efficient gameplay, and putting half the PvE playerbase in a perpetual state of “wrong place at the wrong time.”
If you are worried about reward/mat glutting due to farming specific event chains, I’m sure you can think of a better way than kittenblocking timers.
Oh and yea, categories for Open World PvE in LFG. Kthnx.
Or words to that effect.
If you are worried about reward/mat glutting due to farming specific event chains, I’m sure you can think of a better way than kittenblocking timers.
That way is already in place, oddly enough. Personal participation level will easily deal with map hopping to farm quick, easy and lucrative events.
If you are worried about reward/mat glutting due to farming specific event chains, I’m sure you can think of a better way than kittenblocking timers.
That way is already in place, oddly enough. Personal participation level will easily deal with map hopping to farm quick, easy and lucrative events.
Ah, fair point.
Oh and a clarification for my post (nothing to do with what you said Manasa): I realize SW already has a few cooldowns. They are, however, visible and not that long.
Or words to that effect.
As an interested observer, this is my concern, also. The meta events may be possible at certain times of the day with a dedicated group using the LFG system to bring interested parties into that shard. That’s cold comfort to those who play at odd hours for their region. One-and-done objectives like HC’s, on the other hand, may become a real problem for some players.
Sure, When I get on most of the maps are dead, I have also noticed that now the dash for masteries and elite professions are over there is not much there to help the newer slower to level players…
It’s not just event timing that works better in SW. I can explore it solo if I want, gain hero points, clear forts and defend them. Thats why you can clear SW at all, at the start there is few people, they do some events, clear areas and walk some dollies. When the breach is near, more people pop in and fill the map.
In HoT maps its all totally wrong. You cant even go anywhere without group. You cant work slowly on the first events while more people pop in to help with big finale. Not to mention new maps are way too big, all the wps are contantly disabled and its in general a real pain to even get to the events. And once you do reach them, time is already out.
Was helping a fellow guildie earlier today on Auric Basin map and I really feel sorry for people coming into the game at this stage. Not nearly enough people to bring the walls down so everything was gated. Not nearly enough to go for hero challenges, let alone the meta… What was a lot of fun the first few times through weeks ago but today was truly a horrible experience because of lack of players.
As currently designed I feel the maps as unsustainable with dwindling map population as the game community has moved on beyond the HoT PvE maps to WvW, Fractals, Raids, etc… The strongest incentives seem to be acqusition of acended armor for raiding (we know ANet said exotics are fine. The community as a whole seems to be ignoring that stance and requesting full ascended gear for squads, leading people to work fractals, etc… to try and obtain them) also new Legendaries are leading people back to core game for Legendary Crafting mastery.
Bottom line? It seems the majority of the population has moved on to specific content almost all of which is outside the HoT PvE maps. ArenaNet the new maps are largely empty now and mechanics of those maps are not sustainable on small populations so please tune and scale as needed. As is the new maps are largely broken save for Dragon Stand and VB metas which are both still popular.
Excellent and valid observations and conclusions.
I’m waiting to approach these maps when ANET eventually nerfs them. If no hero comes, I’ll move on to a game with more reasonable design.
I think SW works cause the progress is driven by the players rather than the clock.
Agreed, they should change all HoT maps to the same system, right now you can reach the end of tier 3 and then have to just wait until the pre determind time that the boss event starts, which is some cases has been an hour wait, already people have given up on that for an idea, because lets face it, it is a bad idea. It would be far better if upon reaching the end of tier 3 you then get the boss event 5 mins later.
Yeah, I wish the final fights in these maps would begin closer to the completion of the pre-req events.
Like in Silverwastes where the Breach begins once the bar fills due to players completing the events.
If you are worried about reward/mat glutting due to farming specific event chains, I’m sure you can think of a better way than kittenblocking timers.
That way is already in place, oddly enough. Personal participation level will easily deal with map hopping to farm quick, easy and lucrative events.
Ah, fair point.
Oh and a clarification for my post (nothing to do with what you said Manasa): I realize SW already has a few cooldowns. They are, however, visible and not that long.
Those cooldowns actually have a point. The one between the breach and Vinewrath is very short and allows people to get themselves where they need to be and communicate a little to make sure all lanes are populated. The second one is actually a functioning phase by itself: the labyrinth. (That no one still plays because of map hopping and chest running being the more lucrative options.)
Those cooldowns actually have a point. The one between the breach and Vinewrath is very short and allows people to get themselves where they need to be and communicate a little to make sure all lanes are populated. The second one is actually a functioning phase by itself: the labyrinth. (That no one still plays because of map hopping and chest running being the more lucrative options.)
True dat.
Or words to that effect.
How about the game allows players to choose their status and the meta server system group players accordingly? The choice of status could be:
- Story mission
- Meta events
- Raid
- Exploration
But if players forget to update their status, the system will put players into the wrong map. There are also a chance players abuse the system in order to get into a full map.
Someone mentioned that ANet should have used the system they used for Silverwastes, where the map’s progression is based on player participation rather than a hard timer. This is far more ideal because it means that once the map reaches the critical stage where lots of players are needed, they can throw up LFGs and taxi people in who do want to do that particular content.
I also agree that the maps seem a lot quieter now. Particularly in Verdant Brink, when at least a third to maybe even half of the players in the map are all clustered at the Spirit Vale entrance. ANet should take a page from what they did for SAB and create a separate lobby inside Spirit Vale that players can simply go into so that they aren’t taking up valuable map space in Verdant Brink.
Was helping a fellow guildie earlier today on Auric Basin map and I really feel sorry for people coming into the game at this stage. Not nearly enough people to bring the walls down so everything was gated. Not nearly enough to go for hero challenges, let alone the meta… What was a lot of fun the first few times through weeks ago but today was truly a horrible experience because of lack of players.
Use lfg.
We do this all the time.
It doesn’t always work out.
That’s understandable since lfg is largely player driven. It’s up to people to decide when they want to taxi or not taxi. Sometimes players are more willing to do it than other players. So there are maps that are filled with people but no one advertises, so other players stay on less populated maps until more load in.
True. And sometimes people try really hard to fill a map by advertising and taxiing and not enough people answer the ads and join up.
And sometimes people succeed in filling up a map but the map empties out again halfway through the events and meta. Thus more time is lost/spent filling it back up.
Point is, so much trouble filling maps and having to hop maps and watching maps go south leads to frustration and burnout. Especially this early on in new content.
Not everyone has time to spend or wants to spend their time waiting around filling up an empty map or hopping around enough to find a full one in order to get things done.
And there are already so many reports of thinly populated maps and failing events and metas that I think keeping this system going long term is probably going to be a real problem.
Yes, a lot of the map population issues is people driven. Especially with taxi’s not getting people because another map has already filled up with people.
Nothing in the game is truly “people driven” ultimately the game design is what gives the players in the game their objectives and funnels players to specific content. It always comes back to the design (good or bad, in this case I would say bad) the gaming community only goes after things the game design gives them incentives to. Never blame the community for targeting specific content. You can however, blame the community for just being rude in map chat, rude after being paid for a run, etc… Unfortunately I would say on the new HoT PvE maps the attitude of the community has become the worst I’ve encountered in any MMO.
ArenaNet would like to believe this is not true. There was a video they put up a while back when the game went free to play where they boasted about all the players lining up to help new players coming into the game…. That spirit is completely gone on the new HoT maps. What we find in map chat? People angrily venting (worse than this message board), people begging for help and not getting it. People offering absurd amounts of gold for help (and probably getting it), people complaining about not having enough on the map to do meta, gated content, etc… People asking for taxi’s.
From the heart, it’s absolute garbage and an entirely different experience than what we had out the gate when HoT launched not even a month ago. Anyone who reads a positive review of HoT and buys the game for someone as a holiday present as a result of review is following obsolete advise.
While the utility of gliding, mushrooms, etc.. and overall mechanic of mastery and elite specialization unlock add great value along with the new map designs which range from best in game (Verdant Brink) to horrid (Tangled Depths) ultimately the developer has failed to provide needed incentives to keep the game population on these maps and that is not a mild oversight it is a critical issue that has largely destroyed the experience of the game. Two weeks in I would have given HoT 10/10 for rating. Phenomenal. Today I would give it 4/10. I refuse to allow the community in the game to be blamed for a game design that has driven the population away.
if I were a designer or developer on the Gw2 HoT project I would take all this to heart and take it very personal. I would consider it my failure to deliver a sustainable, quality product and if I were a lead designer I would hold some closed door sessions to explore immediate action to patch things back together (namely incentives to get people back into the HoT map). To not take this problem seriously is to be delusional and (a bit arrogant) about the state of where things really are. Unless of course ArenaNet built the expansion only to provide a grade A experience within it’s first two weeks of release.
Again, the game studio’s design is what keeps players around. Don’t scape goat the problem to gaming culture in general or trends “oh this happens with every MMO expansion”. Well, perhaps it does because no studio has correctly innovated and provided incentives. If any ANet designers are reading this, might I suggest reading Tynan Sylvester’s excellent book Designing Games: A Guide to Engineering Experiences.
(edited by SamTheGuardian.2938)
Why do you say Tangled Depths has horrid map design? Rata Novus is cool, and the diving near the waterfall vista is epic. You need to glide from a helicopter to a helicopter blade, jump to the nearby cliff, jump up a ramp, get the vista, etc. Then some of the quests are great but no one does the meta.
Since mobs and events in HoT zones are harder maybe they need to buff the EXP, karma, and droprates and make Cursed Shore look bad by comparison (without actually touching Cursed Shore, which is totally fine as is.)
1 2