Upcoming Global Change to Player Minions

Upcoming Global Change to Player Minions

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Posted by: Roy Cronacher

Roy Cronacher

Game Designer

Next

Hey all,

As some of you may have seen in raids during the last BWE, we were trying out something new with player minions. Basically, in that final BWE, player minions did not take damage from boss attacks. We thought that made minion-based professions feel so much better in combat, but that change did expose some problems such as minions being able to withstand a damaging attack indefinitely.

We wanted minions to not die left and right, but we did want them to have some attrition instead of being completely immune to attacks. This problem is mainly prevalent in PvE as we have huge attacks all over the place that are meant to be dodged by players but unfortunately for minions, they can’t dodge.

After reviewing BWE results, we wanted to create a better system to accomplish this as a global change for minions. To do that, we made it so that unless a minion is specifically targeted by a creature, they will be dealt drastically reduced damage and condition duration from attacks. Currently, this is set to 95% reduction as we feel like it’s a good starting place, but we’ll continue to monitor and adjust it. This means if your minion gains agro from a creature it will still take full damage, but if there is area effect damage hitting your minion, instead of usually killing it instantly, it will slowly attrition it down.

We felt like minions were in a good place for PvP so we didn’t want to change them there for now. Thus, the interaction between players and minions in PvP combat will remain the same.

The change is for all player minions, this includes things like engineer turrets and ranger spirits as well. This will be in for HoT Launch in a few days.

Twitter: @RoyCronacher
I work on systems, combat, skills, and balance.

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Posted by: Randulf.7614

Randulf.7614

There is only one response to this good news…

Banana!!

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

Just to clarify: Is this just for raids or for all PvE?

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Posted by: khani.4786

khani.4786

Just to clarify: Is this just for raids or for all PvE?

Sounds like all of PvE…and that is amazing.

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Posted by: Roy Cronacher

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Roy Cronacher

Game Designer

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Just to clarify: Is this just for raids or for all PvE?

All of PvE, any creature attacks.

Twitter: @RoyCronacher
I work on systems, combat, skills, and balance.

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Posted by: Safari Tank.6238

Safari Tank.6238

Just to clarify, you mention minions, spirits, and turrets, but this does NOT include Ranger pets, correct?

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Posted by: Zera.8907

Zera.8907

Wow…..Good job guys, good job!

Blackgate: Zera Mithrandir- Reaper| Zera Targaryen-Mes|Zera Naharis – Ranger|

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

SQEEEEEE!!

((now figure out why the Spirit Weapon sword and hammer force taunt creatures!))

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: Netko.9271

Netko.9271

Is that including WvW too?

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

Just to clarify: Is this just for raids or for all PvE?

All of PvE, any creature attacks.

I figured that was what was meant. Thanks! This sounds amazing!

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Posted by: Belzebu.3912

Belzebu.3912

So, spirit druid may be a thing in PvE.
I’m sad that spirits unbound was removed now …

Charter Vanguard [CV] – HoD
Bardy Belzebuson – Ranger Sir Belzebu – Herald
(and the other 8 elite specs maxed too)

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Posted by: Ofir.2405

Ofir.2405

Is that includes ranger pets? (fingers crossed!)

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Posted by: Dahkeus.8243

Dahkeus.8243

Just to clarify, you mention minions, spirits, and turrets, but this does NOT include Ranger pets, correct?

Yea, I’m curious on this too. Are Ranger pets considered ‘minions’?

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Posted by: ronpierce.2760

ronpierce.2760

Just to clarify: Is this just for raids or for all PvE?

All of PvE, any creature attacks.

What about conditions?

Also, pets in AOE in PvP is absolutely not fine. If there was a similar system, but 50% or so in PvP, that would be great.

Notice the lack of viability in Minions/Spirit Weapons/Rangers/Phant builds, all having a huge root in pet survivability?

I don’t mind them being killed, but they are way too weak to AOE spam in PvP just as well.

Also, with them less susceptible to AOE, there would be less risk of cheese-killing when a bar full of minions trigger Death Nova at once (because they’d die less often).

High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)

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Posted by: Lewis Burnell.2493

Lewis Burnell.2493

Just to clarify, you mention minions, spirits, and turrets, but this does NOT include Ranger pets, correct?

Yea, I’m curious on this too. Are Ranger pets considered ‘minions’?

Yes. This change affects pets.

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Posted by: Roy Cronacher

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Roy Cronacher

Game Designer

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Just to clarify, you mention minions, spirits, and turrets, but this does NOT include Ranger pets, correct?

Ranger pets are included.

Twitter: @RoyCronacher
I work on systems, combat, skills, and balance.

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Posted by: Xyonon.3987

Xyonon.3987

Illusions included? _ plssayyes plssayyes plssayyes!!!

Ziggs Ironeye – Engineer | Madame Le Blanc – Mesmer | Mentor (PvE) | EU
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”

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Posted by: Randulf.7614

Randulf.7614

Roy, post that in the Ranger subforum and I’d bet a statue being made in your likeness by nightfall

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Posted by: Ofir.2405

Ofir.2405

Just to clarify, you mention minions, spirits, and turrets, but this does NOT include Ranger pets, correct?

Ranger pets are included.

Finally! TNX

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Posted by: TASagent.1308

TASagent.1308

Are Mesmer clones and phantasms included as well?

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Posted by: Roy Cronacher

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Roy Cronacher

Game Designer

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Illusions included? _ plssayyes plssayyes plssayyes!!!

Yes. all player minions, all of them.

Twitter: @RoyCronacher
I work on systems, combat, skills, and balance.

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Posted by: Safari Tank.6238

Safari Tank.6238

Just to clarify, you mention minions, spirits, and turrets, but this does NOT include Ranger pets, correct?

Ranger pets are included.

Hallelujah, thx Roy! We haven’t forgotten about WHaO yet, but you’re making up for it

(edited by Safari Tank.6238)

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Posted by: Basaltface.2786

Basaltface.2786

…got a hunch thats made to get the gyros even somewhat working in pve. Eh.. i take it.

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Posted by: Blackarps.1974

Blackarps.1974

When you say that they are remaining the same for PvP, does that mean WvW too? Please say yes.

Maguuma Guardian

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Posted by: Roy Cronacher

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Roy Cronacher

Game Designer

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When you say that they are remaining the same for PvP, does that mean WvW too? Please say yes.

This is only for creature attacks against player minions. Player attacks against minions keeps the same functionality as it has right now. This is for everywhere.

Twitter: @RoyCronacher
I work on systems, combat, skills, and balance.

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Posted by: Blackarps.1974

Blackarps.1974

When you say that they are remaining the same for PvP, does that mean WvW too? Please say yes.

This is only for creature attacks against player minions. Player attacks against minions keeps the same functionality as it has right now. This is for everywhere.

PHEW! Great change. Thanks to all those involved.

Maguuma Guardian

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Posted by: Belzebu.3912

Belzebu.3912

Illusions included? _ plssayyes plssayyes plssayyes!!!

Yes. all player minions, all of them.

Necro minions too?

I’m kidding, I know they are

Amazing feature, it would be great if it worked in WvW, that way rangers could be less bad in zergs :P

Charter Vanguard [CV] – HoD
Bardy Belzebuson – Ranger Sir Belzebu – Herald
(and the other 8 elite specs maxed too)

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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

Sounds like this will fix the mesmer issue with that one boss in Hidden Arcana (the one where you get a shield by killing the right color mini mob so you can enter the death zone to dps the boss).

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Posted by: witcher.3197

witcher.3197

Just to clarify: Is this just for raids or for all PvE?

All of PvE, any creature attacks.

What about conditions?

Also, pets in AOE in PvP is absolutely not fine. If there was a similar system, but 50% or so in PvP, that would be great.

Notice the lack of viability in Minions/Spirit Weapons/Rangers/Phant builds, all having a huge root in pet survivability?

I don’t mind them being killed, but they are way too weak to AOE spam in PvP just as well.

Also, with them less susceptible to AOE, there would be less risk of cheese-killing when a bar full of minions trigger Death Nova at once (because they’d die less often).

The last thing PvP needs is viable, or even top tier AI specs.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

This is huge, and is something we’ve wanted forever. Thank you so much, guys.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

Hey all,

We felt like minions were in a good place for PvP so we didn’t want to change them there for now. Thus, the interaction between players and minions in PvP combat will remain the same.

That’s a joke right? While ranger pets are more or less a thing because they have to be, Ranger Nature Spirits, Guardian Sprit Weapons, and Necromancer Minons and even Elementalist Elementals are extinct as an entire class of utility skills in sPvP and WvW. Even Engineer turrets have largely been bred out of the competitive environment and you can’t expect gyros or Reaper’s shambling horrors to change that.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: codeninja.1590

codeninja.1590

Minion Master Necro Meta confirmed!

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Posted by: arkealia.2713

arkealia.2713

We rangers, mesmers and necros thank you from the bottom of our heart

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Posted by: butch.8136

butch.8136

Hey all,

We felt like minions were in a good place for PvP so we didn’t want to change them there for now. Thus, the interaction between players and minions in PvP combat will remain the same.

That’s a joke right? While ranger pets are more or less a thing because they have to be, Ranger Nature Spirits, Guardian Sprit Weapons, and Necromancer Minons and even Elementalist Elementals are extinct as an entire class of utility skills in sPvP and WvW. Even Engineer turrets have largely been bred out of the competitive environment and you can’t expect gyros or Reaper’s shambling horrors to change that.

The zoo meta was horrible in PvP. The turret meta was horrible too. We don’t need more AI in PvP.
Necro minions are being used.

Razor xxxx (Desolation ; Off)
Bring back: ‘Gamer’ title + MAT’s!
Throw out: Hotjoin!

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Posted by: thrag.9740

thrag.9740

I’m no expert on minion use, but this seems like a really good change, that addresses issues that my mesmer and ranger friends have complained about. Good job.

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Posted by: Cookiezz.5261

Cookiezz.5261

I am. so happy. I cannot contain myself.

I should probably put my pants back on.

Before my boss sees me.

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Posted by: ronpierce.2760

ronpierce.2760

Just to clarify: Is this just for raids or for all PvE?

All of PvE, any creature attacks.

What about conditions?

Also, pets in AOE in PvP is absolutely not fine. If there was a similar system, but 50% or so in PvP, that would be great.

Notice the lack of viability in Minions/Spirit Weapons/Rangers/Phant builds, all having a huge root in pet survivability?

I don’t mind them being killed, but they are way too weak to AOE spam in PvP just as well.

Also, with them less susceptible to AOE, there would be less risk of cheese-killing when a bar full of minions trigger Death Nova at once (because they’d die less often).

The last thing PvP needs is viable, or even top tier AI specs.

That’s entirely opinion. There are steps they could take to reduce clutter and make them more skill-based, but that doesn’t mean they need to innately be bad at their core. The AI stigma is silly and fairly ignorant. Pet builds can be some of the most skillful and harder to master builds in many games.

High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)

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Posted by: BrotherBelial.3094

BrotherBelial.3094

Two thumbs way up. MM necros, can be a thing in PvE.

i5 4690K @ 3.5Mhz|8GB HyperX Savage 1600mHz|MSI H81M-E34|MSI GTX 960 Gaming 2GB|
|Seasonic S12G 650W|Win10 Pro X64| Corsair Spec 03 Case|

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Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

DiogoSilva.7089

That’s a joke right? While ranger pets are more or less a thing because they have to be, Ranger Nature Spirits, Guardian Sprit Weapons, and Necromancer Minons and even Elementalist Elementals are extinct as an entire class of utility skills in sPvP and WvW. Even Engineer turrets have largely been bred out of the competitive environment and you can’t expect gyros or Reaper’s shambling horrors to change that.

PvP is in a much better spot without AI dominance. Better for the players, better for the viewers, better for everything.

EDIT
At least, that applies until some AI builds are redesigned to fit better in the format.

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Posted by: Sebastian Knight.4736

Sebastian Knight.4736

This is fantastic news!

Druid Spirit Ranger is going to be amazing for PvE!

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Posted by: smitske.4912

smitske.4912

So top tier massive AoE classes still make minions completetly useless in pvp.
Are there any AI changes planned for pets? Since you announced you want esports but pet fixing is crucial to actually getting the classes balanced. If you want to take esports the least bit serioious it is a must.

(edited by smitske.4912)

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

The zoo meta was horrible in PvP. The turret meta was horrible too. We don’t need more AI in PvP.

I think there’s plenty of range between nuthin’ and 95% mitigation that could bring more variety to the current meager list of competitive builds. Saying things are “fine” right now is just cruelty to the abused and under used skills. Something that can move us back to a point between ‘horrible’ and ‘non-existent’.

Necro minions are being used.

I’m confident the balance team can pull the metrics and catch my drift .

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

Do the thieves from Ambush and Thieves Guild considered minions?

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: Quickfoot Katana.8642

Quickfoot Katana.8642

Why don’t you just give minions/pets evade frames when their owner also dodges?

Tell me why isnt this a good suggestion or not viable?

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Posted by: Bugabuga.9721

Bugabuga.9721

Hm. So until boss pays attention to that particular bear, it will be fine
I wonder if this will result in bosses sequentially killing off minions one-by one.

Also, does it apply to engineer turrets? (they are kinda like minions, and generally in PvE everything immediately aggroes and tries to kill them)

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Posted by: J J.1835

J J.1835

Is the redirected damage (bulwark gyro, phantasmal defender) also reduced?

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Posted by: xev.9476

xev.9476

Excellent change, thanks! I’m disappointed, though, that I’ll still have my pet on perma passive in WvW. I agree with others that zoo builds in sPvP aren’t particularly fun to fight against, but WvW is a different beast, especially considering you saddle classes like ranger with a mandatory AI. It’d be so nice not to have some useless dead thing limping around following me… I do hope you’re still working on a solution to give pets some functionality and usefulness in large scale WvW combat.

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Posted by: DBZVelena.5186

DBZVelena.5186

So that includes the elementalist summon minions too right from those glyph skills?
What about the consumable minions?

Proud Medic of the Splinter Warband. PM me to know more.

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Posted by: Mightybird.6034

Mightybird.6034

Hey all,

We felt like minions were in a good place for PvP so we didn’t want to change them there for now. Thus, the interaction between players and minions in PvP combat will remain the same.

That’s a joke right? While ranger pets are more or less a thing because they have to be, Ranger Nature Spirits, Guardian Sprit Weapons, and Necromancer Minons and even Elementalist Elementals are extinct as an entire class of utility skills in sPvP and WvW. Even Engineer turrets have largely been bred out of the competitive environment and you can’t expect gyros or Reaper’s shambling horrors to change that.

On purpose. Remember when turret engi was a thing? How “fun” that was? No one wants to play against A.I./mobs in PvP… they shouldn’t ever be meta in pvp.

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Posted by: Kumion.7580

Kumion.7580

Wow! This is fantastic news. Minions will be much more viable to use now. Their AI could be punishing before, but this change is amazing.