VInetooth Prime needs better downscaling.

VInetooth Prime needs better downscaling.

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Posted by: SolarDragon.7063

SolarDragon.7063

It’s impossible to get done if you play in Oceanic timezones as both the health and break bar refuse to scale down past the point for about 20 people.

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Posted by: zakuruchi.4086

zakuruchi.4086

Do you mean it needs better upscaling? From experience, when I succeed in killing VT Prime, it’s always when there are less than 20 people around, the easiest is when I run it with less than 10 people in total.

The breakbar seems to upscale rather aggressively with more people. With less than 10 people, usually only around 4-5 CC (or around 2-3 heavy CC like Signet of Humility / Rev Staff 5) needs to land to break his bar. With more than 20, it seems it takes much more (could also be because most people don’t bring CC, or thinks other people will bring CC).

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Posted by: Reverielle.3972

Reverielle.3972

I’ve found the biggest problem with it is that players don’t know that this is one fight that’s basically impossible to best if you don’t break it’s defiance bar. Lots of new players to Heart of Thorns haven’t realised the importance of defiance bar breaking, but hopefully they will with time.

This also reminds me of the classic ‘we need more help’ cry for events; which ultimately often results in more players arriving – and in the case of Vinetooth Prime – that don’t particularly pay attention to the mechanics, in turn up-scaling the event even more and just making things worse.

The Matriarch in Verdant Brink is another example: It’s amazingly easy and fast to keep on the ground and beat with 3-5 players that know how and when to break it’s bar to stop it from flying off.

Yet another classic example of this is when one of the wings of Tarir is lagging behind the others; desperate, often unneeded, calls result in players coming just to ‘zerg the octovine’, but they hugely up-scaled it and the number of other enemies showing up and can make matters worse.

I was thinking that the Vinetooth Prime is a legendary enemy and as such should be difficult to best with few players. But that being said The Matriarch in Verdant Brink I just spoke about above is also a legendary enemy and it’s not so, so perhaps some alteration of the level of the base defiance bar is in order.

That being said, it is also nice to have some content that isn’t a forgone conclusion before the battle’s even begun.

(edited by Reverielle.3972)

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

It’s impossible to get done if you play in Oceanic timezones as both the health and break bar refuse to scale down past the point for about 20 people.

I’ve successfully killed it with fewer than 10 people several times. I am pretty sure the fewest we had once was 5 (although it might have been four or six).

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: onevstheworld.2419

onevstheworld.2419

I’ve found the biggest problem with it is that players don’t know that this is one fight that’s basically impossible to best if you don’t break it’s defiance bar. Lots of new players to Heart of Thorns haven’t realised the importance of defiance bar breaking, but hopefully they will with time.

You actually CAN kill it without breaking it’s breakbar… I would not have believed it if I didn’t see it myself. I joined that particular fight 2-3 minutes late, so it may have been broken earlier in the fight, but while I was there we didn’t break a single bar and we killed it with less than a minute remaining. There were about 20-25 players.

One thing I did notice with that encounter was there were very few downed players; so everyone was doing a much better job at staying alive, the dead were WPing, and we were able to sustain our DPS.

TLDR; Yes, breaking the bar makes the kill quicker and with more margin of error, but if you adhere to good combat habits, it’s still possible.

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Posted by: Reverielle.3972

Reverielle.3972

I’ve found the biggest problem with it is that players don’t know that this is one fight that’s basically impossible to best if you don’t break it’s defiance bar. Lots of new players to Heart of Thorns haven’t realised the importance of defiance bar breaking, but hopefully they will with time.

You actually CAN kill it without breaking it’s breakbar… I would not have believed it if I didn’t see it myself. I joined that particular fight 2-3 minutes late, so it may have been broken earlier in the fight, but while I was there we didn’t break a single bar and we killed it with less than a minute remaining. There were about 20-25 players.

One thing I did notice with that encounter was there were very few downed players; so everyone was doing a much better job at staying alive, the dead were WPing, and we were able to sustain our DPS.

TLDR; Yes, breaking the bar makes the kill quicker and with more margin of error, but if you adhere to good combat habits, it’s still possible.

Really? I’m not sure, I’m guessing it might have been broken before you go there like you suggested. Everyone’s always said it’s impossible in map, and I’ve believed such too from my experience. Multiple times I’ve seen attempts not get anywhere near beating it if it isn’t broken at least once. But if you break it once, the amount of bonus damage you do to it in those stunned seconds is amazing, almost akin to those Thornhearts in Dragon’s Stand.

Can anyone else attest to this; that it can be beaten if you don’t break it’s bar?

(edited by Reverielle.3972)

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Posted by: onevstheworld.2419

onevstheworld.2419

Like I said, I wouldn’t have believed it if I wasn’t there. We must have missed 4 breakbar attempts during the time I was in the fight. I can’t recall exactly how much HP it had when I joined but it was at least 2/3 full. I honestly thought it was a lost cause after we missed 2 breaks.

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Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

I’ve found the biggest problem with it is that players don’t know that this is one fight that’s basically impossible to best if you don’t break it’s defiance bar. Lots of new players to Heart of Thorns haven’t realised the importance of defiance bar breaking, but hopefully they will with time.

You actually CAN kill it without breaking it’s breakbar… I would not have believed it if I didn’t see it myself. I joined that particular fight 2-3 minutes late, so it may have been broken earlier in the fight, but while I was there we didn’t break a single bar and we killed it with less than a minute remaining. There were about 20-25 players.

One thing I did notice with that encounter was there were very few downed players; so everyone was doing a much better job at staying alive, the dead were WPing, and we were able to sustain our DPS.

TLDR; Yes, breaking the bar makes the kill quicker and with more margin of error, but if you adhere to good combat habits, it’s still possible.

Really? I’m not sure, I’m guessing it might have been broken before you go there like you suggested. Everyone’s always said it’s impossible in map, and I’ve believed such too from my experience. Multiple times I’ve seen attempts not get anywhere near beating it if it isn’t broken at least once. But if you break it once, the amount of bonus damage you do to it in those stunned seconds is amazing, almost akin to those Thornhearts in Dragon’s Stand.

Can anyone else attest to this; that it can be beaten if you don’t break it’s bar?

It could probably be easily done if you bring a bunch of necros and pull in some vampires for bouncing epidemic. :P

On the other hand if you can have enough coordination for that then doing it the “normal” way shouldn’t be much of an issue either.

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Posted by: General Belisarius.2548

General Belisarius.2548

Vine tooth is a real issue. I have tried it 40 times over a week now as I need it for never more. All horrible fails. I have every akill on my utility hard or soft cc. Bring a class with stuns and dazes. I start from the beginning of east events and explain the whole time how to do vine tooth. By the time the events end there’s a bunch of people and we can’t break the bar. Ever. Not even 25%. This is an issue. I would love a chance to fight if with 5 players. But I never get the chance you need like 10 to do the first event with the vinetenders and more just keep showing auto attacking and ruining it. 40 times this is not fun please accept anet people are terrible players don’t make fights with huge breakbars and a 5 second window that includes the time he runs across the room. this is not fun.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Vine tooth is a real issue. I have tried it 40 times over a week now as I need it for never more. All horrible fails. I have every akill on my utility hard or soft cc. Bring a class with stuns and dazes. I start from the beginning of east events and explain the whole time how to do vine tooth. By the time the events end there’s a bunch of people and we can’t break the bar. Ever. Not even 25%. This is an issue. I would love a chance to fight if with 5 players. But I never get the chance you need like 10 to do the first event with the vinetenders and more just keep showing auto attacking and ruining it. 40 times this is not fun please accept anet people are terrible players don’t make fights with huge breakbars and a 5 second window that includes the time he runs across the room. this is not fun.

Players are not pulling their weight and breaking the bar. It doesn’t need to be adjusted just because players choose not to do one of the mechanics for it.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Players are not pulling their weight and breaking the bar. It doesn’t need to be adjusted just because players choose not to do one of the mechanics for it.

To be fair, I doubt very much if it’s failing because some players are choosing not to do one of the mechanics. I think it’s much more likely that they are unaware of just how important it is to break defiance quickly and/or how to contribute. (And yes, I think it’s a shame that this late since the change to defiance that people remain unaware of how it works.)

Regardless of the phrasing, I agree with the sentiment: the fact that people aren’t making use of the mechanics doesn’t mean that the fight should be re-scaled or otherwise adjusted. It’s clear that V-prime can be killed with very few people (and often that’s easier than killing with a ton of folks present).

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Sartharina.3542

Sartharina.3542

The scaling of the event also makes it harder for players to land their CC’s – melee and skillshot CC can get lost in the effectspam in a large zerg, the vinetooth’s movement becomes more erratic (And harder to track), and it deals more damage, downing enemies faster.

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Posted by: Reverielle.3972

Reverielle.3972

Players are not pulling their weight and breaking the bar. It doesn’t need to be adjusted just because players choose not to do one of the mechanics for it.

To be fair, I doubt very much if it’s failing because some players are choosing not to do one of the mechanics. I think it’s much more likely that they are unaware of just how important it is to break defiance quickly and/or how to contribute. (And yes, I think it’s a shame that this late since the change to defiance that people remain unaware of how it works.)

Regardless of the phrasing, I agree with the sentiment: the fact that people aren’t making use of the mechanics doesn’t mean that the fight should be re-scaled or otherwise adjusted. It’s clear that V-prime can be killed with very few people (and often that’s easier than killing with a ton of folks present).

Yes. I think this (what I’ve highlighted in bold above) is a general problem in Heart of Thorn’s content. Players can simply think it’s too hard, and don’t allocate the little time it takes educate themselves about defiance bars.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

Players are not pulling their weight and breaking the bar. It doesn’t need to be adjusted just because players choose not to do one of the mechanics for it.

To be fair, I doubt very much if it’s failing because some players are choosing not to do one of the mechanics. I think it’s much more likely that they are unaware of just how important it is to break defiance quickly and/or how to contribute. (And yes, I think it’s a shame that this late since the change to defiance that people remain unaware of how it works.)

Regardless of the phrasing, I agree with the sentiment: the fact that people aren’t making use of the mechanics doesn’t mean that the fight should be re-scaled or otherwise adjusted. It’s clear that V-prime can be killed with very few people (and often that’s easier than killing with a ton of folks present).

Yes. I think this (what I’ve highlighted in bold above) is a general problem in Heart of Thorn’s content. Players can simply think it’s too hard, and don’t allocate the little time it takes educate themselves about defiance bars.

Its definitely a problem. I think having a defiance bar tutorial near the entrance to VB, similar to the dodge tutorials in every starting area, would be helpful to players. Have an enemy that is invincible until you break his defiance bar and explain it to players. Hopefully that would be enough to at least teach players the importance of CC

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Posted by: trub.1657

trub.1657

I think that is an excellent idea OriOri.

I have Splinter Barrage- I am a Ritualist.
I have a pet- I am a Ranger.
I have Avatar of Balthazar- I am a Dervish.

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Posted by: lcpdragonslayer.7895

lcpdragonslayer.7895

I have been doing this everyday and failing everyday because even with ccs on skills 7, 8, 9 and 0, we’re not even close to depleting the breakbar and people are getting downed/not waypointing. Why should I be punished as an OCX primetime player when there’s only ever 3 or 4 other stragglers around? You should never put something you need a dozen other players around on the same map who know how to cc into a legendary collection.

“I did it once with 6 strangers all in nomads masterwork gear with their monitors turned off with 5 minutes to spare” =/= Vinetooth Prime should not have better downscaling.

(edited by lcpdragonslayer.7895)

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Posted by: Sartharina.3542

Sartharina.3542

Vinetooth Prime is easiest with 8-15 players. More, and the Breakbar’s too tough. Less, and the margin of error outside the breakbar phases can be uncomfortably thin.

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Posted by: Xiahou Mao.9701

Xiahou Mao.9701

I have been doing this everyday and failing everyday because even with ccs on skills 7, 8, 9 and 0

What specific CCs are you using on those bars? If they’re soft CC skills, it’s not going to be enough.

If your character doesn’t have many crowd control options, you might want to bring a different class to the fight. Thief can slot a lot of CC in utilities/elite, for example, while Revenant’s Staff 5 is a superior option to bring as well.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

“I did it once with 6 strangers all in nomads masterwork gear with their monitors turned off with 5 minutes to spare” =/= Vinetooth Prime should not have better downscaling.

Actually, wouldn’t that be a sure sign that the event was far too easy? If it were remotely possible to succeed by any six strangers with monitors turned off.

I’m really sorry that you are having trouble getting your item and that the bottleneck seems to be a particular mechanic in a particular map. That isn’t reason enough for ANet to spend development resources to change things, especially since there are alternatives, including putting together a group (of PUGs) in advance. There are also guilds that include V-Prime on their Hero Challenge or other types of AB tours.

Despite your frustration, wouldn’t it be better for the game and the community if ANet spent their time on helping to ensure their players were more familiar with the mechanics rather than making the content easier? Isn’t it more fun to overcome a challenge using the existing tools rather than waiting for the game company to remove challenges or give us new tools?

I get that it’s annoying to be blocked by this one thing. I hope you can see that there are other dynamics in play besides that.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: lcpdragonslayer.7895

lcpdragonslayer.7895

If your character doesn’t have many crowd control options, you might want to bring a different class to the fight.

I’m sorry but this is a bit ridiculous. It’s a Vinetooth, not Matthias. I shouldn’t feel like I have to bring a specific character to get it done. The game should not assume that everyone has multiple characters they can bring to the fight.

To answer your question, I have tried on warrior, necro, rev, dd, dh, druid, and temp. Should I gear up a full vipers condi engi and learn how to play engi to attempt Vinetooth Prime? It just doesn’t work if only 3 or 4 of us are using hard CCs.

Actually, wouldn’t that be a sure sign that the event was far too easy? If it were remotely possible to succeed by any six strangers with monitors turned off.

I’m really sorry that you are having trouble getting your item and that the bottleneck seems to be a particular mechanic in a particular map. That isn’t reason enough for ANet to spend development resources to change things, especially since there are alternatives, including putting together a group (of PUGs) in advance. There are also guilds that include V-Prime on their Hero Challenge or other types of AB tours.

Despite your frustration, wouldn’t it be better for the game and the community if ANet spent their time on helping to ensure their players were more familiar with the mechanics rather than making the content easier? Isn’t it more fun to overcome a challenge using the existing tools rather than waiting for the game company to remove challenges or give us new tools?

I get that it’s annoying to be blocked by this one thing. I hope you can see that there are other dynamics in play besides that.

I meant that if a few people reply to this thread saying that they had managed to defeat Vinetooth Prime with half a dozen people, that does not mean that Vinetooth Prime should not downscale better.

I’m not asking for Vinetooth Prime to be nerfed. I’m asking that if 3 people show up to Vinetooth Prime at 4am North American time, the amount of CC required to deplete the breakbar should be doable by 3 people who are all chaining hard CCs. At the moment you simply cannot duo or trio this event. Of course if the game educates people about breakbars this might not be an issue, but changing ONE requirement of HOPE and Nevermore is ‘less work’ for the developers than putting some instruction tutorial in VB. Even the logistics behind that – what would you include in the tutorial? It’d take 5 minutes just to explain what’s a breakbar, what’s a soft cc, what’s a hard cc, what does immune mean, double damage during first 5 seconds, etc.

It’s not fun. It was past fun 3 weeks of daily attempts ago. My issue is that my legendary journey is being stunted by other people not knowing how or when to CC or sometimes even what is a CC skill. I have been able to solo every other ‘collection requirement’ – this should be reworked to be in line with other legendary journeys.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

I meant that if a few people reply to this thread saying that they had managed to defeat Vinetooth Prime with half a dozen people, that does not mean that Vinetooth Prime should not downscale better.

By the same token, just because a half dozen people are failing doesn’t mean that the issue should be solved by changing the mechanics or retuning the fight.

I’m not asking for Vinetooth Prime to be nerfed.

I fail to see the difference between your request and “nerfing”. You are asking that the fight be less difficult, which is how most people use the term ‘nerf’.

Mind you, I don’t see anything bad about the idea of nerfing, even if I don’t agree it’s necessary here. I’m not sure why you don’t want to use the word.

I’m asking that if 3 people show up to Vinetooth Prime at 4am North American time, the amount of CC required to deplete the breakbar should be doable by 3 people who are all chaining hard CCs.

I’m not sure that the event was designed to be doable by any 3 people; I think it was designed around a crowd. However, as it turns out, it can be done by very small groups.

At the moment you simply cannot duo or trio this event. Of course if the game educates people about breakbars this might not be an issue, but changing ONE requirement of HOPE and Nevermore is ‘less work’ for the developers than putting some instruction tutorial in VB. Even the logistics behind that – what would you include in the tutorial? It’d take 5 minutes just to explain what’s a breakbar, what’s a soft cc, what’s a hard cc, what does immune mean, double damage during first 5 seconds, etc.

Defiance is a mechanic that’s important all over the game, not just to this single event. So yes, it would be better for the game, in my strong opinion, if ANet were to take time to ensure that more people understood how it worked, instead of changing the mechanics of specific events.

It’s not fun. It was past fun 3 weeks of daily attempts ago.

Now that’s finally an argument I can get behind — the issue isn’t “Vinetooth Prime need[ing] better downscaling,” it’s that people working towards HOPE and Nevermore are getting frustrated by the need to complete the event. There are lots of potential ways to address that, in addition to changing this fight’s mechanics and/or turning.

Should some legendaries be gated behind the toughest events in the game, while others are not? That seems like a good question to ask and worthy of a separate thread.

For the time being, though, I disagree with the contention that Vinetooth Prime needs to be re-tuned. It can be killed by smaller groups. It just takes some prep time for PUGs — someone explaining the key mechanics before someone pops the beastie.

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Posted by: Xiahou Mao.9701

Xiahou Mao.9701

I’m sorry but this is a bit ridiculous. It’s a Vinetooth, not Matthias. I shouldn’t feel like I have to bring a specific character to get it done. The game should not assume that everyone has multiple characters they can bring to the fight.

To answer your question, I have tried on warrior, necro, rev, dd, dh, druid, and temp. Should I gear up a full vipers condi engi and learn how to play engi to attempt Vinetooth Prime? It just doesn’t work if only 3 or 4 of us are using hard CCs.

You say you answered my question, but you didn’t. I asked exactly what CC skills you’re bringing. Having done a couple of low-man Vinetooth Primes using my Daredevil and breaking the bar every time, I can speak to that from experience. So what skills did you equip on your Daredevil?

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Posted by: lcpdragonslayer.7895

lcpdragonslayer.7895

I fail to see the difference between your request and “nerfing”. You are asking that the fight be less difficult, which is how most people use the term ‘nerf’.

Mind you, I don’t see anything bad about the idea of nerfing, even if I don’t agree it’s necessary here. I’m not sure why you don’t want to use the word.

I’m not sure that the event was designed to be doable by any 3 people; I think it was designed around a crowd. However, as it turns out, it can be done by very small groups.

OK. If Vinetooth Prime was nerfed today, it means that if 20 people defeated Vinetooth Prime yesterday, they had a “harder time” defeating it than if those 20 people attempted the fight tomorrow. Whether it’s nerfed as in you need less CCs, or the HP was lower, or it doesn’t jump around so much or whatever, it was “more challenging” for 20 people to defeat it yesterday pre-nerf than it is for the same 20 people to attempt the fight tomorrow post-nerf. That is a nerf.

Asking for better downscaling is not a nerf. It should be equally challenging for 3 people to do Vinetooth Prime as it is for 20 people on an individual level, but it should not be impossible to do just because some content developer decided it was a [Group Event] and not an [Event].

Yes this game should absolutely teach people about breakbars rather than dumping them at Wyvern Matriarch and relying on other players to scream in mapchat. I have mixed feelings about the idea of a tutorial – if the New Player Experience was anything to go by I’d rather not – but I think we do at least agree that people need to learn about CCs even if we might not see eye to eye about how legendary journeys are designed.

So what skills did you equip on your Daredevil?

I ran staff and d/p, using skills scorp wire, distracting daggers, fist flurry, and basilisk venom on elite. Any suggestions?

(edited by lcpdragonslayer.7895)

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Posted by: Rink.6108

Rink.6108

Vinetooth is a hard fight. I actually enjoy that but it is hard in a group of pugs. I have beaten it without breaking the breakbar with a heavy damage puggroup and I have failed it often because people weren’t able to break the breakbar. There are some skills that have a high impact on breakbar, it helps to tell the pugs what skills they have to equip and only use when the breakbar is up. It also helps to “command” vinetooth so people are ready.
And of course it helps, if you do the cc of 3-4 people alone. For example bring mesmer with Signet of Humility and additional cc.
More info about what skills break how much of the bar: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_Bar

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Posted by: Xiahou Mao.9701

Xiahou Mao.9701

I ran staff and d/p, using skills scorp wire, distracting daggers, fist flurry, and basilisk venom on elite. Any suggestions?

I actually do have suggestions, yeah. Distracting Daggers should be swapped out for Tripwire, which will hit the breakbar much harder and take a total shorter time than Distracting Daggers does. Make sure you position your Basilisk Venom well, of course, activating it when there are as many other things near you as you can. On my kills I didn’t bring Scorpion Wire, using Bandit’s Defense instead to help with the rest of the fight, and there was still enough CC. I haven’t done research, but assuming there’s not many players present, bringing Impairing Daggers might actually be better for the breakbar than Scorpion Wire, with the combination it gives of Slow and Immobilize. Those two conditions can drain a breakbar pretty fast and aren’t too common, so it wouldn’t be like Chill or Cripple that would probably already be applied anyway.

With any luck, as a Mordrem target, the Vinetooth Prime can give you Branch Bash as a steal skill. Use that for even more CC. If you get it on Steal, save it for the CC phase and avoid Stealing again. If you don’t get it, Steal again as soon as you can to try to get it instead. And if you’re really lucky, you can have Branch Bash prepared for the breakbar phase, and be able to Steal another one while you activate the first, to get a double bash.

Basilisk Venom is the single most important thing you can do in the fight. It will melt the break bar if you can share it well, and in a low-man situation it and everything else you can do might be enough all on its own.

As for Vinetooth being doable with three people, it’s inherently going to have an issue with that few people because the major fight mechanic involves one player being automatically downed. With five or six people, the extra players should be able to have enough break bar potential to compensate. With three, the two remaining players might not. Break bars don’t scale below five players, so three players (with one getting downed) will have a harder time than five players (with one getting downed). But it’s still doable.

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Posted by: lcpdragonslayer.7895

lcpdragonslayer.7895

I did try with tripwire, but found that I couldn’t land it 100% of the time. Scorp wire I could land much more reliably but I know it does less to the CC bar. I will try tonight with tripwire again and impairing daggers instead and see how I get on. Thanks for the tips.

If we could reliably get 6 people there to do it from the 10 minute countdown mark, it wouldn’t be that big of an issue. I’m not the OP so I know I’m not the only one having difficulty with this. But sometimes especially during the transition between OCX and SEA primetime when octovine is not up it feels like there are only 6 people in all of Auric Basin.

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Posted by: Sartharina.3542

Sartharina.3542

I did try with tripwire, but found that I couldn’t land it 100% of the time. Scorp wire I could land much more reliably but I know it does less to the CC bar. I will try tonight with tripwire again and impairing daggers instead and see how I get on. Thanks for the tips.

If we could reliably get 6 people there to do it from the 10 minute countdown mark, it wouldn’t be that big of an issue. I’m not the OP so I know I’m not the only one having difficulty with this. But sometimes especially during the transition between OCX and SEA primetime when octovine is not up it feels like there are only 6 people in all of Auric Basin.

Try setting up after Octovine – get a team of 5-10 people willing to do the Eastwatch events and kill the Vinetooth (And if it fails – you have time to try again on another map)

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Posted by: Xiahou Mao.9701

Xiahou Mao.9701

I did try with tripwire, but found that I couldn’t land it 100% of the time.

Tripwire should be easy to land, especially if you’re already bringing Fist Flurry and thus will be beating on it in melee. Don’t place it in advance and hope the Vinetooth runs over it during its dash. Just drop Tripwire right underneath it when it’s stopped while you’re in melee and the breakbar is up, and it will activate immediately.

Good luck!