Guild Wars 2

morrolan.9608:

Sicarius.4639:

morrolan.9608:

Broom.2561:

PyrateSilly.4710:

This has been answered so many times as it is now ridiculous to even think about bringing up something that was just a “this is what we would like” and as things change and grow things get cut and added.
As for the grinding …… I have been playing since head-start/beta and I have yet to grind. Not once have I grinded and I have played just about every day. I am not only doing the old Bolt but also every other new legendary weapon in the game at the moment. I am collecting as I go and not worrying about how fast I get them done. For me it is not a contest to see how fast I get them done. I am just letting the pieces come when they come. Having too much fun just playing to think about “oh crap I don’t have this legendary yet”

You may remember that just before release, the company making GW2 was taken over by another one, who had a bit of a reputation for being cash hungry. They made all kinds of assurances that they would stick to the original vision of the developers, but pretty much the first thing they did at launch was to start break promises.

Let’s just say I don’t think the original vision for this game is being adhered to anymore.

NCSoft bought Arenanet long before GW2 was released, I think when GW1 was in its prime. And Nexon never took over NCSoft just bought a stake in it which they sold a few months ago.

See this is what I thought, oh well easier to blame scary old NCSoft then lay any blame with actual developers.

Yep I think the change came with the 2 founders leaving and Mike O’Brien being left in charge.

I dont’ know, one of those developers went to Tera, and the other opened a studio making a Zombie MMO, neither of which is considered to be particularly runaway successful. It’s easy to say stuff like this, but it’s harder to acknowledge the real issue.

Too many different groups compete for what you want in an MMO. If you target a niche, you end up with a niche. If you target everyone, most of the harder core groups aren’t satisfied.

My guess is the people who are most satifised in this game are people who are more tolerant of deviation from what they require.

If all you play is WvW, this game is horrible right now, but it’s not horrible for me to occassionally jump into WvW. If all you play is PvP and that’s all you do, of course the flaws will stick out.

If you’re a hard core PvE player that knows every exploit of every dungeon and fractal and you only run that kind of content, of course the fractal rewards suck.

But if you’re like me and you play a bit of everything, ,and you’re not casual enough to worry about how hard HoT is and you play with people because you’re social, you’re going to have more fun, because it’s easier to shift about to fun content.

I’m not worried about WvW that much, because I can wait till they fix it. I’m not playing in a PvP tournament so the balance is less of an issue for me (and no game is balanced anyway). I’m not worried about dungeons and fractal rewards, because I’m not only running them and I still run the ocassional dungeon or more frequently fractal. The rewards aren’t that important to me, because I don’t plan on living in fractals.

The reason that the game has some many complains is because the fan base has so many requirements. If Anet released HoT with the same difficulty level as core tyria, and made it so you could solo,. we wouldn’t hear solo people and casuals complaining at all. They’d be playing the game they loved.

If they didn’t nerf dungeons the dungeon crowd wouldnt’ be complaining. They knew that would happen and did it anyway, for what they consider the good of the game. I’m sure many people are ticked off about it, but I doubt it’s 30% of the game’s population. But you’ll hear about it from the 5-10% (guessing here) that are absolutely affected.

This game isn’t in the current situation because a couple of guys left years ago, since so many people liked the core game anyway. It’s in this situation because so many small groups are so demanding and pleasing one absolutely means disappointing another in so many instances.

If Anet had simply not nerfed dugneon rewards and they gave small guilds a smaller guild hall, we’d hear less complaints.

But if they nerfed HoT, we’d here a lot of complaints. It would just be different people complaining.

Which MMO was that? I’m actually looking for something a bit more structured than H1Z1 or DayZ.

The game is in its current state because HoT endgame design philosophy threw out most of the design principles that made the core game unique among many competitors just to replace those with run-of-the-mill concepts that were already lazy and boring in so many other products.
So people are on the edge.

Because they neither got new exciting game concepts that “will redefine raids” for example nor did they get all the very good unique endgame options that the core game had offered.

Instead we now have an end game that is practicaly:
- gold sinks
- apexis dailies
- gated entry content (the actually hard gated as well as the ‘this is designed for X gear in mind’ one as well)

Compared to the unique qualities that the core game with all its flaws had for end game, the new thing very quickly feels the same as any other competing MMORPG copycat endgame on the market once you have surpassed the initial exploring phase.

Also advertising of HoT in the pre-order phase has in many instances specifically emphasized that the addon would fully stay true to the loved unique principles of the core game while giving new innovative concepts as well.
Both of these points have not been met and by state the game is, this must have been obvious at the time that those statements were made, so some people may even feel a bit kittened over by the pre-order campaign.

“apexis dailies” what does that mean?

Inverse.2967:

The game is in its current state because HoT endgame design philosophy threw out most of the design principles that made the core game unique among many competitors just to replace those with run-of-the-mill concepts that were already lazy and boring in so many other products.

Also, all of the major content in every new HoT PvE map is not decently supported by the server setup. It’s a ridiculous mess of taxiing and pointlessly being shuffled to barren map after barren map because of low player numbers on any map that’s not “organized”.

No, not ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. The only reason this is tolerated is because people have gotten used to it due to the rare splashes of free new content released before HoT. A completely new title launching with systems like these would be laughed out of business. People’s prior commitment to the game saves HoT from that fate.

adormtil.1605:

“apexis dailies” what does that mean?

It’s a reference to WoW.

Vayne.8563:

Labjax.2465:

People keep coming back to the manifesto because it was such a show of “we’re doing things differently” and a lot of people believed them. They had no reason not to believe them, either – in the beginning (to my knowledge anyway) they stayed pretty true to that manifesto.

Over time, they only seem to be drifting further away from it. I kinda feel bad for them because they have to eat their words now and the manifesto is going to follow them until this game is dead and buried, and probably long after. The manifesto they wanted didn’t get them the monetary success they wanted, so it keeps evolving. I’m pretty sure it’s as simple as that.

Nah they’re still doing lots of things differently. I don’t remember a whole lot of expansions that came out without a new tier of gear and without raising the level cap. I mean if you wanted the absolute best gear in most games you had to run dungeons and raids.

This game continues to be different. It’s just not different in the way people specifically want it to be.

I agree. GW2 is still different in a lot of ways. However, it’s not quite as different as it was when it started.

adormtil.1605:

“apexis dailies” what does that mean?

There is practically nothing to do in the latest WoW expansion other than raid or collect tens of thousands of “apexis crystals” for awful gear and reskinned mounts. :P

60+ hours on gw2communitys team speak with 400 other people waiting for an organized attempt at the TD meta knowing most times you wont even get on the right map ip is not what i call having fun.knowing your excluded from raids cos your not one of the chosen few in a top guild.The people who supported this company and game since launch seem to no longer be there target audience.

GreyWolf.8670:

adormtil.1605:

“apexis dailies” what does that mean?

There is practically nothing to do in the latest WoW expansion other than raid or collect tens of thousands of “apexis crystals” for awful gear and reskinned mounts. :P

Apexis = Karma would be my answer.

Same principle, accumulate ‘points’ buy pre-raid gear: iLevel 695 WOW gear is equivalent to Exotic when it comes to being usable for raiding, as usual the players demand far higher gear level than the developers actually tune the content for.

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Broom.2561:

PyrateSilly.4710:

This has been answered so many times as it is now ridiculous to even think about bringing up something that was just a “this is what we would like” and as things change and grow things get cut and added.
As for the grinding …… I have been playing since head-start/beta and I have yet to grind. Not once have I grinded and I have played just about every day. I am not only doing the old Bolt but also every other new legendary weapon in the game at the moment. I am collecting as I go and not worrying about how fast I get them done. For me it is not a contest to see how fast I get them done. I am just letting the pieces come when they come. Having too much fun just playing to think about “oh crap I don’t have this legendary yet”

You may remember that just before release, the company making GW2 was taken over by another one, who had a bit of a reputation for being cash hungry. They made all kinds of assurances that they would stick to the original vision of the developers, but pretty much the first thing they did at launch was to start break promises.

Let’s just say I don’t think the original vision for this game is being adhered to anymore.

NCSoft bought Arenanet long before GW2 was released, I think when GW1 was in its prime. And Nexon never took over NCSoft just bought a stake in it which they sold a few months ago.

NcSoft owned Anet before the first Guild Wars 1 was released, long before it was in its prime. By the way, some would argue its in its prime now, at the height of its playerbase.

It’s been years, and I don’t remember the full details but there was a takeover of some sort shortly before launch which concerned a lot of people, it was all over the beta forums. Not NCSoft, maybe it was another company taking a large interest. However it is, there were assurances from ‘above’ that nothing would change. And at launch we found out that dyes were suddenly not per account – as promised – but per character. I know this was reversed about 6 months ago, but still.

Either way, it’s pretty obvious that ‘play how you want’ has gone out the door. Want to do HoT story, do the big meta fights or raids, or get new legendaries? Have to do masteries. Want masteries? Have to do FPS mini adventures. Where it used to be all about making everything accessible to everyone, it’s gradually shifted to ’don’t have ascended? no raids 4u’.

Broom.2561:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Broom.2561:

PyrateSilly.4710:

This has been answered so many times as it is now ridiculous to even think about bringing up something that was just a “this is what we would like” and as things change and grow things get cut and added.
As for the grinding …… I have been playing since head-start/beta and I have yet to grind. Not once have I grinded and I have played just about every day. I am not only doing the old Bolt but also every other new legendary weapon in the game at the moment. I am collecting as I go and not worrying about how fast I get them done. For me it is not a contest to see how fast I get them done. I am just letting the pieces come when they come. Having too much fun just playing to think about “oh crap I don’t have this legendary yet”

You may remember that just before release, the company making GW2 was taken over by another one, who had a bit of a reputation for being cash hungry. They made all kinds of assurances that they would stick to the original vision of the developers, but pretty much the first thing they did at launch was to start break promises.

Let’s just say I don’t think the original vision for this game is being adhered to anymore.

NCSoft bought Arenanet long before GW2 was released, I think when GW1 was in its prime. And Nexon never took over NCSoft just bought a stake in it which they sold a few months ago.

NcSoft owned Anet before the first Guild Wars 1 was released, long before it was in its prime. By the way, some would argue its in its prime now, at the height of its playerbase.

It’s been years, and I don’t remember the full details but there was a takeover of some sort shortly before launch which concerned a lot of people, it was all over the beta forums. Not NCSoft, maybe it was another company taking a large interest. However it is, there were assurances from ‘above’ that nothing would change. And at launch we found out that dyes were suddenly not per account – as promised – but per character. I know this was reversed about 6 months ago, but still.

Either way, it’s pretty obvious that ‘play how you want’ has gone out the door. Want to do HoT story, do the big meta fights or raids, or get new legendaries? Have to do masteries. Want masteries? Have to do FPS mini adventures. Where it used to be all about making everything accessible to everyone, it’s gradually shifted to ’don’t have ascended? no raids 4u’.

The only thing I can see is Nexon buying 14.7% in NCSoft. Prior to this NCSoft bought 76% of another company.

Vayne.8563:

Nah they’re still doing lots of things differently. I don’t remember a whole lot of expansions that came out without a new tier of gear and without raising the level cap. I mean if you wanted the absolute best gear in most games you had to run dungeons and raids.

This game continues to be different. It’s just not different in the way people specifically want it to be.

Sort of. I wasn’t thinking just of the “doing things differently” part as a generalized statement, but I can see why you’d think that from the way I worded my post. Even so, look at raids and the climate they have created… it’s not all that different from your standard MMO. Ascended being how it is and stats being how they are, it’s basically a gear grind if you didn’t have tons of ascended sets prior to HoT.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Palador.2170:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

There was no real point to begin with. OP has no clue what grinding really means. He also does not seem to understand that end-game rewards do not come easy.

The previous LI system was a problematic system that required RNG drop and tons of actual grinding. Running each and every dungeon every day, doing the exact same thing as fast as possible, repeating it for months and months with your only goal the reward, is the definition of grind.

If you fail to see that, you never played a serious MMO before, and you just cry on the forums because with HoT, you can’t just finish all the content the game has to offer within 3 hours of release while pressing #1. Something you could totally do in the vanilla version of the game.

The core GW2 was not an MMO able to keep players playing for a decent amount of time. It was so facerolling easy that an enormous amount of the total population was taking huge breaks very often out of boredom and lack of end-game content. A big percentage of the population was just logging in to do the daily (or just logged-in since they changed the system to give you rewards for logging in…), and logged out right after because there was literally nothing else to do.
In addition to that every single Living world episode could be completed within 2 hours from release.

Grind is relative.

You’re basing your standards of “grind” off of other games. EQ, WoW, and the like, I’m guessing. They’re basing their standards of “grind” off of the rest of GW2. There’s a rather huge difference between the two, but both are correct from their own point of view.

The problem is, this is not one of those other games, and it is GW2. GW2 was supposed to be different, not just a copy of other MMORPGs. The grind may be small by the standards of other games, but those are not the standards we should be using. If GW2 is meant to stand as its own thing, we should measure it as such.

That model of GW2 was obviously not working out well and that’s why they felt the need to change it. As I mentioned above, the game could not sustain a healthy population.

Also, I’m not comparing the game with EQ/WoW/RIFT etc… I’m just saying that grind means repeating the same content countless times with your only goal the reward.
In HoT you get the rewards by exploring/playing the content new maps have to offer. It’s a different thing completely.

So they chose the f2p route, brilliant.
They went against their manifesto, simple as that. And who says the original manifesto wasn’t working, you? That makes me want to spend more money on gems, now that you have cleared this up for us.

We don’t make grindy games, we leave that to the other companies.

Not only was that their statement, it also had a condescending tone to it.

Now if GW2 is not the grindiest game one the market, please show me one that is worse.

Smoosh.2718:

Quoting your own manifesto carried out in 2011, you stated (sorry Colin for dropping you in here) ‘We just dont want players to grind in Guild Wars 2’.
The old way of making legendary weapons was fine, so why was there a need to go completely over the top with the time gating of materials along with a stupidly high number of the same material you can only make one of per day, just for the new precursors. Surely with a system like this in place you should remove the daily craft restriction on all T7 materials.

Looking at the new list of what is needed for the new legendary weapons this is the most grindy thing I’ve seen in this game, which goes against the 2011 statement on what direction you guys wanted this game to go in.

https://youtu.be/FU1JUwPqzQY?t=1m22s

Bump. Not to concerned about the new legendaries yet though I might be when I plan on getting them, but I strongly agree with the OP’s Title. In most areas of the game. Please go back arenanet and watch the manifesto over and over again until its part of your blood.

I know it’s been answered, and answered and argued and answered. And it’s got three pages still of answers, but I’m going to answer anyway.

The manifesto is not a gospel path that the Devs are beholden to. It was a guide for how the game would be made at launch. After that point it ceased being more than a concept. It has been three years now, they’ve learned and grown with the community. The Manifesto is no longer relevant to maintaining the game, nor allowing it to move forward. Despite that, they have still maintained the more important ideas within it, if not perfectly.

The game is not a grind, unless you choose to grind. The game does not force you to do it, you force yourself. I’m making Inferno for my fire themed Ranger. Tier 1 took me a while since I hadn’t been crafting Ascended mats up to this point. But it wasn’t bad. Tier 2 took me by surprise, because it requires a lot of mithril, like a LOT of mithril. So I stepped back. I don’t feel like buying it, which means I’ll have to earn it, and that’s going to take a long time. I choose not to grind, and so my experience isn’t grindy, it’s just longer.

Goldberg.4831:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Palador.2170:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

There was no real point to begin with. OP has no clue what grinding really means. He also does not seem to understand that end-game rewards do not come easy.

The previous LI system was a problematic system that required RNG drop and tons of actual grinding. Running each and every dungeon every day, doing the exact same thing as fast as possible, repeating it for months and months with your only goal the reward, is the definition of grind.

If you fail to see that, you never played a serious MMO before, and you just cry on the forums because with HoT, you can’t just finish all the content the game has to offer within 3 hours of release while pressing #1. Something you could totally do in the vanilla version of the game.

The core GW2 was not an MMO able to keep players playing for a decent amount of time. It was so facerolling easy that an enormous amount of the total population was taking huge breaks very often out of boredom and lack of end-game content. A big percentage of the population was just logging in to do the daily (or just logged-in since they changed the system to give you rewards for logging in…), and logged out right after because there was literally nothing else to do.
In addition to that every single Living world episode could be completed within 2 hours from release.

Grind is relative.

You’re basing your standards of “grind” off of other games. EQ, WoW, and the like, I’m guessing. They’re basing their standards of “grind” off of the rest of GW2. There’s a rather huge difference between the two, but both are correct from their own point of view.

The problem is, this is not one of those other games, and it is GW2. GW2 was supposed to be different, not just a copy of other MMORPGs. The grind may be small by the standards of other games, but those are not the standards we should be using. If GW2 is meant to stand as its own thing, we should measure it as such.

That model of GW2 was obviously not working out well and that’s why they felt the need to change it. As I mentioned above, the game could not sustain a healthy population.

Also, I’m not comparing the game with EQ/WoW/RIFT etc… I’m just saying that grind means repeating the same content countless times with your only goal the reward.
In HoT you get the rewards by exploring/playing the content new maps have to offer. It’s a different thing completely.

So they chose the f2p route, brilliant.
They went against their manifesto, simple as that. And who says the original manifesto wasn’t working, you? That makes me want to spend more money on gems, now that you have cleared this up for us.

We don’t make grindy games, we leave that to the other companies.

Not only was that their statement, it also had a condescending tone to it.

Now if GW2 is not the grindiest game one the market, please show me one that is worse.

Wait wait wait. So you can’t compair GW2 to other games, despite the specific line in the manifesto being a comparison to other games? Don’t compare it to GW2, because it is no more or less grindy than it ever was. Because they, in the manifesto, are defining Grind as repeating content repeatedly for the chance at obtaining the specific goal. Then moving on to the next task and repeating. That is the kind of grind you get out of “other games” -with a condescending tone-

No, instead you get a grind like Farmville, in which you will always be making progress toward your goal. You will know exactly how much you need to do to achieve your goal. You aren’t hoping for a chance of success, you will succeed, it may just take a while.

See that’s the problem with the old way of making legendaries. It actually did go against the manifesto, because precursors were RNG. You couldn’t guarantee one. Therefore it made no difference how much you worked toward the goal because it might never come. Instead you would have to go back to your Farmville grind for gold to buy one from someone else who lucked out.

Kal Spiro.9745:

It has been three years now, they’ve learned and grown with the community.

You mean, against the community, right?

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Also, I’m not comparing the game with EQ/WoW/RIFT etc… I’m just saying that grind means repeating the same content countless times with your only goal the reward.
In HoT you get the rewards by exploring/playing the content new maps have to offer. It’s a different thing completely.

So doing Centaurs over and over again to get cotton which you need for ascended crafting is not and in no way “repeating the same stuff over and over again for the reward”, huh?

And going to karma traders then mystic forge then back to karma trader for hours to get linen and wool is also absolutely ok and not the sign of a failed design, huh?

Not repetitive …oh no …

Sicarius.4639:

Which MMO was that? I’m actually looking for something a bit more structured than H1Z1 or DayZ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undead_Labs

HtFde.3856:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Also, I’m not comparing the game with EQ/WoW/RIFT etc… I’m just saying that grind means repeating the same content countless times with your only goal the reward.
In HoT you get the rewards by exploring/playing the content new maps have to offer. It’s a different thing completely.

So doing Centaurs over and over again to get cotton which you need for ascended crafting is not and in no way “repeating the same stuff over and over again for the reward”, huh?

And going to karma traders then mystic forge then back to karma trader for hours to get linen and wool is also absolutely ok and not the sign of a failed design, huh?

Not repetitive …oh no …

Or you can do anything you want, get some gold and buy what you need. That’s the other option. Because cotton is available on the trading post.

HtFde.3856:

So doing Centaurs over and over again to get cotton which you need for ascended crafting is not and in no way “repeating the same stuff over and over again for the reward”, huh?

And going to karma traders then mystic forge then back to karma trader for hours to get linen and wool is also absolutely ok and not the sign of a failed design, huh?

Not repetitive …oh no …

I never did centaurs and I don’t even know what this karma trader thing is and I have 5 ascended armors. You choose to do it that ways.

Ya there should be more ways to get ascended armor because now it’s pretty craft, raid or be lucky. But the way you decide to get the stuff to craft it is pretty much your choice. Don’t hate on anet because you decided to farm centaur and hate it.

Kal Spiro.9745:

The game is not a grind, unless you choose to grind. The game does not force you to do it, you force yourself.

yeah… No. Other players are imposing the grind upon us due to raid dps requirements. In order for any player to enjoy the endgame content that has been decided upon for our future, they will have to grind.

Astralporing.1957:

Kal Spiro.9745:

It has been three years now, they’ve learned and grown with the community.

You mean, against the community, right?

You, whoever you are, are not the community. I am not the community. Being part of something doesn’t make you the soul and voice for that thing.

NayNay.7680:

Kal Spiro.9745:

The game is not a grind, unless you choose to grind. The game does not force you to do it, you force yourself.

yeah… No. Other players are imposing the grind upon us due to raid dps requirements. In order for any player to enjoy the endgame content that has been decided upon for our future, they will have to grind.

Not really, no. It’s still a choice you make.

Isn’t that the case with every game ever?

So grind is a useless term?

NayNay.7680:

Kal Spiro.9745:

The game is not a grind, unless you choose to grind. The game does not force you to do it, you force yourself.

yeah… No. Other players are imposing the grind upon us due to raid dps requirements. In order for any player to enjoy the endgame content that has been decided upon for our future, they will have to grind.

It’s still a choice. I killed the Vale Guardian with DPS Dragonhunter, 2 Thiefs, people in exotic armors, etc, etc

Now I agree that Raid should be more accessible (LFG, Raid Lobby, Squad) and should have several difficulty settings for everybody to enjoy. But the very definition of challenging content mean that you will need to make yourself a good build and gear. You can’t have both. A challenging content that doesn’t really need any build or gear to be completed because then you end up with current dungeons.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Isn’t that the case with every game ever?

So grind is a useless term?

Well not really. There is two content that push people into ascended gear. High Level Fractal and Raids. Like I said, Raid (just like fractal) should have a way for people without ascended to enjoy the content, while keeping the challenging side for people who do have ascended gear.

Anyway, 98% of the content of the game doesn’t push anybody at all toward ascended. Additionnaly, Ascended gear is in the game for the last 2 years, 3 years for some pieces. They should improve the diversity from where you can get them, but overall, it,s been a long time and most people should be able to have full trinkets and weapons, which is enough for raid.

Ascended was the max gear 2 years ago and is still the best gear in the game now. The problem isn’t that you need to grind to get your best gear, the problem is when a game push a gear grind when each expansion you need to get a new better gear. Because that invalidate all the work we did the year before. And that, GW2 is excepted of.

Vayne.8563:

Sicarius.4639:

Which MMO was that? I’m actually looking for something a bit more structured than H1Z1 or DayZ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undead_Labs

Oh, that wasn’t an MMO, State of Decay was actually a nice zombie game.

I know they would like to produce one, but I also understand that they are funded by Microsoft now? So whether or not they’ll be able to take that risk I’m not sure.

Vayne.8563:

HtFde.3856:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Also, I’m not comparing the game with EQ/WoW/RIFT etc… I’m just saying that grind means repeating the same content countless times with your only goal the reward.
In HoT you get the rewards by exploring/playing the content new maps have to offer. It’s a different thing completely.

So doing Centaurs over and over again to get cotton which you need for ascended crafting is not and in no way “repeating the same stuff over and over again for the reward”, huh?

And going to karma traders then mystic forge then back to karma trader for hours to get linen and wool is also absolutely ok and not the sign of a failed design, huh?

Not repetitive …oh no …

Or you can do anything you want, get some gold and buy what you need. That’s the other option. Because cotton is available on the trading post.

That’s a bit shortsighted because that cotton has to come from somewhere

Thaddeus.4891:

HtFde.3856:

So doing Centaurs over and over again to get cotton which you need for ascended crafting is not and in no way “repeating the same stuff over and over again for the reward”, huh?

And going to karma traders then mystic forge then back to karma trader for hours to get linen and wool is also absolutely ok and not the sign of a failed design, huh?

Not repetitive …oh no …

I never did centaurs and I don’t even know what this karma trader thing is and I have 5 ascended armors. You choose to do it that ways.

Ya there should be more ways to get ascended armor because now it’s pretty craft, raid or be lucky. But the way you decide to get the stuff to craft it is pretty much your choice. Don’t hate on anet because you decided to farm centaur and hate it.

Just out of interest … how did you get your sets then – apart from buying the materials from the TP which somehow requires RL money or a lot of ingame gold (and requires people to actually farm the items for you to buy)?

HtFde.3856:

Just out of interest … how did you get your sets then – apart from buying the materials from the TP which somehow requires RL money or a lot of ingame gold (and requires people to actually farm the items for you to buy)?

Well I had 8 characters before HoT and now 9 with the revenants. I had all of them next to a Iron or Platinum rich vein and everyday I took 5-10min to gather all 8/9 of them. So for me Deldrimar Ingot where pretty much free with Mithril being so abundant.

With HoT I had 2 characters slot, but only 1 character left to make so I use the 2nd one to create a low level character that open Green Bags of gear so I get Tier 3-4 of Leather and Cloth.

CM is pretty great for low level leather and cloth. Yes right now less people are doing fractal and it’s harder to get a party. But it’s so much faster now with the power creep from HoT that the reward is pretty great. Maybe a bit less than before, but still great.

I did a bit of WvW zerg bursting with a guild for sometimes and got 2-3 Chest of ascended from that.

I also like to do PvP and also got maybe 5-6 ascended chest from just playing pvp.

Now fractal is useless for that, but I got about 12 ascended chest from fractals.

Oh and I’m an achievement kitten and I think 2-3 achievement give you ascended chest.

I got some ascended boots from raid and I have almost enough shards for 2 small pieces of ascended.

I crafted I think 2 ascended armors and about 10 ascended weapons. With my rich iron and platinum vein gathered 8 times each day, weapons where pretty easy to make actually. The remaining was from ascended drop in WvW, PvP and Fractals.

It,s been more than 2 years so I slowly accumulated ascended chests.

Astralporing.1957:

adormtil.1605:

Well think like that now rng will no longer kitten you over. Now its all about your effort.

Have you seen some of the requirements for precursor crafting? RNG kittening you over has not changed.

What RNG? I’ve been casually doing the collections as I’m in no rush to make the actual legendary and haven’t ran into any issues with RNG. There are some that are based on drops but that rate is nothing compared to what we had before. I’ve never had to spend more than 10 minutes killing things to get the drop such as the items we need from the various jotun.

What is a manifesto?

Swagger.1459:

What is a manifesto?

I dunno but it looks like it went out the window !

Swagger.1459:

What is a manifesto?

http://i.word.com/idictionary/manifesto

Pretty much a declaration of intent but not a promise.

Thaddeus.4891:

HtFde.3856:

Just out of interest … how did you get your sets then – apart from buying the materials from the TP which somehow requires RL money or a lot of ingame gold (and requires people to actually farm the items for you to buy)?

Well I had 8 characters before HoT and now 9 with the revenants. I had all of them next to a Iron or Platinum rich vein and everyday I took 5-10min to gather all 8/9 of them. So for me Deldrimar Ingot where pretty much free with Mithril being so abundant.

With HoT I had 2 characters slot, but only 1 character left to make so I use the 2nd one to create a low level character that open Green Bags of gear so I get Tier 3-4 of Leather and Cloth.

CM is pretty great for low level leather and cloth. Yes right now less people are doing fractal and it’s harder to get a party. But it’s so much faster now with the power creep from HoT that the reward is pretty great. Maybe a bit less than before, but still great.

I did a bit of WvW zerg bursting with a guild for sometimes and got 2-3 Chest of ascended from that.

I also like to do PvP and also got maybe 5-6 ascended chest from just playing pvp.

Now fractal is useless for that, but I got about 12 ascended chest from fractals.

Oh and I’m an achievement kitten and I think 2-3 achievement give you ascended chest.

I got some ascended boots from raid and I have almost enough shards for 2 small pieces of ascended.

I crafted I think 2 ascended armors and about 10 ascended weapons. With my rich iron and platinum vein gathered 8 times each day, weapons where pretty easy to make actually. The remaining was from ascended drop in WvW, PvP and Fractals.

It,s been more than 2 years so I slowly accumulated ascended chests.

I hate to break it to you, but most of these manifesto people would probably consider that grinding.

Tell it like it is,it was a lie.they downright lied to us.in any other industry this would be fraud.

eldrin.6471:

Tell it like it is,it was a lie.they downright lied to us.in any other industry this would be fraud.

Since when is a manifesto a promise that cannot be changed? They also clarified exactly what they meant by no grind.

This topic? Again?! Seriously people, kill it. Kill it with fire.

(just don’t ask an ele for a fireball, cause it’s just really, really sad)

2,300 hours, 1 character, 1 ascended weapon. (And I got that about 200 hours ago).

Nope definitely not a grind.

And that’s playing since GW2 early access.

Dudes, what’s all the stress about? The manifesto’s right here, and it’s fine.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifesto_of_the_Moletariate

manifesto is public declaration of policy and aims. and in my book if you change them after taking my money on false pretenses you a lair/fraudster/cheet

Solid Gold.9310:

2,300 hours, 1 character, 1 ascended weapon. (And I got that about 200 hours ago).

Nope definitely not a grind.

And that’s playing since GW2 early access.

LOL the problem is that ascended come from too few different source, not that it’s a grind. Jesus.

You simply don’t play the content that offer ascended and even if you can’t expect ALL content to give ascended gear, it’s true that ascended should be offer at a similar rate for each major type of content.

Fractal used to be a bit too much when it come to ascended.

Raid are very good source.

WvW and PvP are ok, but not that great.

Open World are simply horrible in that case and that’s a content that a lot of people do.

Solid Gold.9310:

2,300 hours, 1 character, 1 ascended weapon. (And I got that about 200 hours ago).

Nope definitely not a grind.

And that’s playing since GW2 early access.

1.5k hours, 5 lvl 80 geared characters, full ascended on 2 of them, about 20 ascended weapons, and roughly 5k gold in total spend in useless cosmetic stuff.

Casually playing, with big breaks, started playing 6 months from release.

Your point?

HtFde.3856:

Vayne.8563:

HtFde.3856:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Also, I’m not comparing the game with EQ/WoW/RIFT etc… I’m just saying that grind means repeating the same content countless times with your only goal the reward.
In HoT you get the rewards by exploring/playing the content new maps have to offer. It’s a different thing completely.

So doing Centaurs over and over again to get cotton which you need for ascended crafting is not and in no way “repeating the same stuff over and over again for the reward”, huh?

And going to karma traders then mystic forge then back to karma trader for hours to get linen and wool is also absolutely ok and not the sign of a failed design, huh?

Not repetitive …oh no …

Or you can do anything you want, get some gold and buy what you need. That’s the other option. Because cotton is available on the trading post.

That’s a bit shortsighted because that cotton has to come from somewhere

Nah, because not everyone wants ascended armor and many just play the game and sell their mats. There are always people in those zones who get that stuff without farming it.

The salvaging at that level and the bags at that level done by everyone doing content in that level, all day every day adds up to a supply because many people sell their mats and never craft at all. They don’t need cotton so they sell cotton.

On top of that, there are people who enjoy mindless grinding to make money and they’re not forced to do it, they’re doing what they enjoy. They’ll do it while the watch a movie, just to do it. I don’t personally understand it, but I have friends that will just grind away at something, because they find it relaxing.

So no one is forced to grind, those that enjoy it or those passing through the area sell the mats, and there will likely be enough of that for the players making ascended armor.

eldrin.6471:

manifesto is public declaration of policy and aims. and in my book if you change them after taking my money on false pretenses you a lair/fraudster/cheet

So if you tell your kids we’re going to the movies tonight and then you get called into work and can’t take them because the situation changed, even though when you said it it was absolutely true, you become a liar/fraudster/cheat?

People go into projects, particularly creative projects all the time and end up having to change them. It doesn’t make someone a cheat.

Saying so doesn’t make it so.

Vayne.8563:

eldrin.6471:

manifesto is public declaration of policy and aims. and in my book if you change them after taking my money on false pretenses you a lair/fraudster/cheet

So if you tell your kids we’re going to the movies tonight and then you get called into work and can’t take them because the situation changed, even though when you said it it was absolutely true, you become a liar/fraudster/cheat?

People go into projects, particularly creative projects all the time and end up having to change them. It doesn’t make someone a cheat.

Saying so doesn’t make it so.

Vayne, you consistently trot this argument out, that ANet had to change their minds about the manifesto through no fault of their own, and that changing their minds was perfectly reasonable, etc.

But yet they still post it on their website.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

Why do you think that is? Do you believe they do so because of some sentimental attachment to a quaint historical document? Or do you think they still want potential players to believe they are doing something radically different with their game (even though they backpedaled on it quite a bit)? Or are they just clueless about how to clean up their promotional info? What do you think it is?

If your assertion is true, that they were left with very little choice but to change their manifesto, don’t you think they should say so? And either take the original down, or amend it with their “revisions?”

Supernaut.2684:

Vayne.8563:

eldrin.6471:

manifesto is public declaration of policy and aims. and in my book if you change them after taking my money on false pretenses you a lair/fraudster/cheet

So if you tell your kids we’re going to the movies tonight and then you get called into work and can’t take them because the situation changed, even though when you said it it was absolutely true, you become a liar/fraudster/cheat?

People go into projects, particularly creative projects all the time and end up having to change them. It doesn’t make someone a cheat.

Saying so doesn’t make it so.

Vayne, you consistently trot this argument out, that ANet had to change their minds about the manifesto through no fault of their own, and that changing their minds was perfectly reasonable, etc.

But yet they still post it on their website.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

Why do you think that is? Do you believe they do so because of some sentimental attachment to a quaint historical document? Or do you think they still want potential players to believe they are doing something radically different with their game (even though they backpedaled on it quite a bit)? Or are they just clueless about how to clean up their promotional info? What do you think it is?

If your assertion is true, that they were left with very little choice but to change their manifesto, don’t you think they should say so? And either take the original down, or amend it with their “revisions?”

90% of the manifesto remains absolutely true and of the 10% that isn’t absolutely true, there are questions over intepretation.

Regardless of anything this game launched with a lot of people who walked away because they had nothing to do, even though there was plenty to do. They didn’t see anything to do, because they didn’t have anything to grind away for. It’s a sad, sad state of affairs, but yeah, if you’d invested millions of dollars in a product and people weren’t picking it up, you’d change it.

That said, there are very few things that are not true in the manifesto. The one word line is probably the least true is the line referencing Guild Wars 1. However, the grind line is fine for me, because I play this game without grinding.

I have never done a 50th level fractal and I may never do a raid, but I have done this game without grinding.

I also have legendaries, full sets of ascended, and yes, I still don’t go out of my way to do anything but what I want to do. I don’t grind.

My mastery level is at 121 and I haven’t grinded anything I’ve played the game.

So in my mind they don’t have to redo the manifesto. However, someone saying that he doesn’t believe the manifesto is right, trotting out that people are lying is absolutely wrong.

So there are two tracks to the argument and you’ve seen me use both. I just use one when I’m talking to someone bringing up one.

Vayne.8563:

90% of the manifesto remains absolutely true and of the 10% that isn’t absolutely true, there are questions over interpretation.

/thread

And I hope you don’t mind that I fixed the misspelling, Mr. I-was-an-editor-but-post-too-much-to-edit-my-posts.