Guild Wars 2

He doesn’t get anything, he is just saying something you agree with.

pepsis.5384:

HoT monsters need a serious review. Right now they are balanced illogically and unintuitively and this is me politely stating how kittening stupid the current HoT mob design is. You have a massive veteran creature that looks like the xenomorph queen, you expect it to be a big threat but very soon it becomes clear you can basically stay in front of it and AFK auto-attack it to death. Its not a threat at all. Then you have these tiny mobs like the pocket raptors eating away 600 to 1000 hp with each bite.

Yeah because size is the most important criteria to judge an enemy.

I mean everybody knows that cows are a hundred times more dangerous than venomous snakes because they are much bigger. ;-)

Shylock.4653:

pepsis.5384:

HoT monsters need a serious review. Right now they are balanced illogically and unintuitively and this is me politely stating how kittening stupid the current HoT mob design is. You have a massive veteran creature that looks like the xenomorph queen, you expect it to be a big threat but very soon it becomes clear you can basically stay in front of it and AFK auto-attack it to death. Its not a threat at all. Then you have these tiny mobs like the pocket raptors eating away 600 to 1000 hp with each bite.

Yeah because size is the most important criteria to judge an enemy.

I mean everybody knows that cows are a hundred times more dangerous than venomous snakes because they are much bigger. ;-)

Really? What would hurt more, a cat scratching you or a tiger rending flesh from bone with his claws? Ingame – a giant creature that looks like it can snap a Charr in two or a tiny lizard that looks like it could die if you step on it?

Sorry man, your attempt at a humorous reply is ill placed, Im genuinely unhappy with Arenanet’s design choices.

Shylock.4653:

Those are an afk check, if you stand still you get killed. On top of that they are only active while a quite small amount of time. If you move while they are active and watch your surrounding you don’t get killed.

Of course there are things which can kill you but those aren’t random. If you learn the encounters and the enemies it is not that hard.

Yes, in this theoretical perfect world where nobody else around you goes afk, you have perfect 360 situational awareness and you don’t by chance move into the pathway of a strafing run.

But I see have gone from never ever ever being able to be one shotted to there being things that can one shot you that can be avoided.

However, the way they are avoided requires some degree of luck and isn’t a well thought mechanic. There is still a certain degree of randomness to it, because the trigger on how long you can stand before becoming a target isn’t consistent. If you never been hit with this mechanic, then you are just incredibly lucky. It’s something that cannot be fully avoided without a degree of luck, because of others going afk and you not being able to track the position of every dragon in the sky while tracking the actual fighting on the island.

The fact that it’s an AFK check is indicative of bad design. If you’ve created an end game boss fight that’s so slow and boring that you feel need to just one shot people who stand still for a random amount of time, you’ve kittened up somewhere.

And keep in mind, I never once said any of this is hard. I said it was annoying. You are using that as a jumping point to talk about how awesome you are at the game. It’s completely irrelevant to any of my points.

Shylock.4653:

If I don’t do Meta-Events on the HoT Maps, I play solo most of the time on these maps.

I have done all 40 HoT HP on all classes and have done everyone at least on one class solo. Some are easier or harder on the different classes but these are all group events and not meant to be soloed. I don’t try to kill each group of mobs which I see in the open world, but why should I?

I do think that the HoT maps need work, but not because of their difficulty. I think the accessibility should be reworked. The Meta-Event Chains are quite long and some need quite a bit communication. In organized groups that is no problem but it excludes many casuals.

Super awesome for you. I’m glad I provided an opportunity to talk about how awesome you are.

But going back to analyzing the game mechanics and talking about those, the thing is not that they are super difficult, which once again, is not my argument. It’s that they are incredibly imbalanced, lazily done and just often incredibly annoying at times.

Fighting a Champion Crusher frog is really just a matter of using a movement skill or a dodge every few seconds to reposition to their backside during a very slow and highly telegraphed attack that does as much damage as a normal attack of a Champion Shadowleaper. It can be done one handed with a cup of coffee.

Fighting a Champion Shadowleaper is a matter of having a much more intense defensive rotation to out sustain their crazy amount of damage pressure. Champion Bladedancers are as bad and in some cases worse, because of their dagger attacks in melee range with very high attack speed that apply stuns with no cooldown. Group fights against these with players who haven’t devoted time to analyzing their mechanics are just simply battles of attrition where you rotate reviving people, because both mobs are lazily overpowered and don’t provide any clear way to avoid the damage they are capable of doing. This even more annoying when compared to how blatantly easy other Champions in HoT are.

Is it all manageable if you devote time to learning how to exploit the AI? Yes.

Can I live with it if it’s not changed? I’m doing fine so far.

Is it annoying as hell, because of just how imbalanced it is and done with little care or testing? Absolutely.

So, we agree it is not hard.

It is annoying, you say. Well, “annoying” is totally subjective, because for me, maps with mobs wich don’t require awareness or work to defeat them are way more annoying. (If I’m going to kill something just spamming 1, I prefer it doesn’t even exist).

I agree there are aspects of the HoT maps that require serious improvement (Navigation guides, to begin). And maybe some situations can trap you if your allies aren’t bright enough (Armors attacking Octovines instead of controlling mobs come to mind). But those aren’t fails on the difficulty side.

pepsis.5384:

They have JPs for your target group, HoT however nearly turned the game into a giant platformer. Thats a no-no for me

They have all central tyria for your target group, HoT however nearly turned the game into a giant platformer. Thats a yes-yes for me.

If they nerfed difficulty.. I would consider uninstalling.

MadRabbit.3179:

However, the way they are avoided requires some degree of luck and isn’t a well thought mechanic.

It’s very well thought out. Most of us are managing to avoid most attacks because they are so well telegraphed and the mechanics are well known.

If you never been hit with this mechanic, then you are just incredibly lucky.

Would be a bloody miracle. The trick is to learn how to avoid it next time.

Is it all manageable if you devote time to learning how to exploit the AI?

What on earth are you talking about? Exploiting the AI?

just how imbalanced it is and done with little care or testing?

I’m sure lots of care and testing was done and it’s just you who is mad about how it turned out.

I disagree we should be evading all attacks, we have a health poor and a specific healing skill slot for a reason. Only way to “evade” some mobs’ attacks is to bypass it, simply by waypointing, passing by from a distance, or stealthing past them. You should avoid them if you don’t want to face them. What I’ve been thinking now is that maybe their respawn is a bit too fast if someone wants to clear out the area to admire the environment, take screenshots, etc., but then that’s not really tied to the “difficulty” factor.

How about just less aggro and less levels on map and non gated areas “__”

MadRabbit.3179:

The dragons during the final fight do enough damage to one shot anyone and their altitude at which they fly means you can’t focus on a ground level fight and track every dragon in the air to watch for a strafing run.

MadRabbit.3179:

and you not being able to track the position of every dragon in the sky while tracking the actual fighting on the island.

You make it sound as if you are involved in an epic battle while the wyvern are attacking. Truth is the wyvern don’t attack while real fights like the Mordrem commander fights. They only attack while easy fights like vine growth or Chopper. But of course if the destroying of an immovable object which doesn’t fight back needs all your focus, you are an easy prey for the wyvern. ;-) Yeah sometimes there are some enemies too.

MadRabbit.3179:

Either you are trivializing this beyond something realistic

Trivializing it?
Come on we are talking about open world not raids, it is easy.

MadRabbit.3179:

But I see have gone from never ever ever being able to be one shotted to there being things that can one shot you that can be avoided.

I have gotten from

MadRabbit.3179:

just randomly one shot people

to “get killed if you mess up” which is absolutely OK. ;-)

MadRabbit.3179:

Is it all manageable if you devote time to learning how to exploit the AI? Yes.

Learning the mechanics of an enemy/encounter is exploiting? Well if that’s true I’m a exploiter. :-(

I think of myself as an average gamer because I know many players which are better than me. Reading the forums I know that there are a some players who don’t use key bindings or don’t know their skills etc.

The problem here is what is the target audience of HoT?
• The keyboard turning and skill clicking player?
• The average player?
• The hardcore gamer?

In my opinion the target audience for Core Tyria is category 1 and the target audience for HoT is category 2. Which doesn’t make HoT hard, HoT open world is quite easy it just isn’t faceroll on the keyboard easy as core Tyria.

Honestly, there’s only two things I wish they’d change in the HoT maps:

1) getting rid of the swarms. They don’t bug me too much on my Ranger, but they freaking wreck my Ele that I’m still learning to play after power leveling. I just want to explore the world, not get face tanked by 15 pocket raptors. ESPECIALLY in VB, where waypoints are always contested and traveling across map is a joke.

2) Having a Silverwastes type setup for map metas rather than a timer. I don’t know if that’s even possible given how these metas work, but it’s worked fantastically for SW and it just confuses me why they didn’t draw from that for inspiration when planning out the new zones.

melimsah.6921:

Honestly, there’s only two things I wish they’d change in the HoT maps:

1) getting rid of the swarms. They don’t bug me too much on my Ranger, but they freaking wreck my Ele that I’m still learning to play after power leveling. I just want to explore the world, not get face tanked by 15 pocket raptors. ESPECIALLY in VB, where waypoints are always contested and traveling across map is a joke.

2) Having a Silverwastes type setup for map metas rather than a timer. I don’t know if that’s even possible given how these metas work, but it’s worked fantastically for SW and it just confuses me why they didn’t draw from that for inspiration when planning out the new zones.

PLS ANET give us SW type meta for new maps and even for higher level tyria maps. And fix the events in VB so you can still WP.

Oh god. I hope they never nerf the HoT maps. I play an elementalist and Tyria is already challenging for me as a fairly casual gamer – having such low health in addition to the lag being in Australia brings means I die a lot in all cases.

Elite specs, masteries and the push to team up with other players, even when the maps are dead? It makes a really nice change in difficulty. It goes from dying to my own stupidity with easy respawns to ‘hey, you ran into a smokescale without looking, have fun running back’. It really makes you learn your class. I love having to dodge snipers, reflect coztic arrowspam and destroy hoards of pocket raptors with my F1. Maguuma isn’t a place I go if I want a relaxed casual experience. It’s a place I know that I’ll die a lot and I do it with a smile. The difficulty’s perfect where it is.

I’m also glad we’re on a set timer for the meta. It pushes people to organise properly and there’ll always be people in the map at set times, as opposed to SW, where it will be dead other than the occasional cf for many hours in the Australian afternoon/evening.

Hanhula.9381:

Oh god. I hope they never nerf the HoT maps. I play an elementalist and Tyria is already challenging for me as a fairly casual gamer – having such low health in addition to the lag being in Australia brings means I die a lot in all cases.

I really like the sarcasm here. :-)

Tuning the content for heavy lags because of playing from Australia isn’t the right way to go. You should better ask anet to give you some servers in Australia.

Hero points should be just that – Hero Points, not Zerg points.

Also locking some of them behind Meta events shouldn’t be a thing (Tarir). And Blocking path to them is just awful (Dragon Stand).

Shylock.4653:

pepsis.5384:

HoT monsters need a serious review. Right now they are balanced illogically and unintuitively and this is me politely stating how kittening stupid the current HoT mob design is. You have a massive veteran creature that looks like the xenomorph queen, you expect it to be a big threat but very soon it becomes clear you can basically stay in front of it and AFK auto-attack it to death. Its not a threat at all. Then you have these tiny mobs like the pocket raptors eating away 600 to 1000 hp with each bite.

Yeah because size is the most important criteria to judge an enemy.

I mean everybody knows that cows are a hundred times more dangerous than venomous snakes because they are much bigger. ;-)

I had to point this out, but in the USA. From 2001-2013, cows killed 20 people per year on average, snakes only 6, and spiders only 7. So if you look at just the USA, cows are more dangerous than snakes and spiders combined.

Sadly, most of these deaths come from cow tipping where the cow falls onto someone. Dumb people.

Romo.3709:

Hero points should be just that – Hero Points, not Zerg points.

Hero points should be just that – Hero Points, not go there and auto attack 10 times in a row points like in Core Tyria. ;-)

Hero Challenges in HoT gives 10 times more reward than the ones in Core Tyria, so they need to be more difficult. Maybe some need a bit of tuning but the most are OK.

Loboling.5293:

I had to point this out, but in the USA. From 2001-2013, cows killed 20 people per year on average, snakes only 6, and spiders only 7. So if you look at just the USA, cows are more dangerous than snakes and spiders combined.

Nice point. :-)

I wonder if it is relevant that a cow is more then 20/6=3.3 times bigger than a snake. ;-)

Loboling.5293:

Sadly, most of these deaths come from cow tipping where the cow falls onto someone. Dumb people.

Has one of these won the Darwin Award?

http://www.darwinawards.com

Mobs that swarm you to hell are just annoying. Which tends to be 60% of the mobs in HoT maps. Meta events are challenging, and that’s good, but people in open world just want to get from one point to another, and wasting your time killing mobs that a minute later will respawn exactly where you left off is terrible game design.

Look, I understand trying to make the game challenging. but there is a difference between boring, annoying, and tedious content that tries to pass itself off as challenging, and actual challenging and fun content. You can’t make an MMO that tried to market itself as “not elitist levels of challenging” and then try to turn away from that after one expansion.

Much of the problems with GW2 is a team of game developers never deciding on what they want to specialize and make the game shine. So instead you get all this different areas of the game that feel and are basically half-done. And so far none of that has changed.

Kudos on the world design in HoT, though, I would love to keep admiring the amazing world design if not for those annoying mobs.

The problem with difficulty is that is varies greatly by profession. I’ve played through HoT on almost all professions now (all zerkers), and necromancers for example are a joke capable of facetanking through everything. In comparison, an elementalist can be killed in seconds by almost anything.

Compared to other MMOs, HoT is hardcore. Most MMOs tend to balance open world/solo content for the worst the player base has to offer, plus vertical progression usually trivializes everything anyways. That’s the problem with dropping vertical progression entirely – those who can’t will never be able to. GW2 was always intended to be a challenging skill based game however, as shown by the original beta where all special attacks were deadly, basically Dark Souls-lite. For business reasons however, it’s more profitable to appeal to the majority like most other MMOs, so either GW2 will become a niche or HoT will be nerfed. Either way, HoT will be nerfed eventually simply because it’ll become unplayable as people move on.

‘In comparison, an elementalist can be killed in seconds by almost anything.’

not true, with a zerker build you simply CC and go for defensive utilities and you stomp everything appart from some champs. – as long as you are prepared to react to a fight and not just spam.

melimsah.6921:

Honestly, there’s only two things I wish they’d change in the HoT maps:

1) getting rid of the swarms. They don’t bug me too much on my Ranger, but they freaking wreck my Ele that I’m still learning to play after power leveling. I just want to explore the world, not get face tanked by 15 pocket raptors. ESPECIALLY in VB, where waypoints are always contested and traveling across map is a joke.

So, you power levelled a class, didn’t learn how to play it fully, went into a HoT zone, and are complaining you’re not doing so well on that class……

……..You don’t say? :/

Yeah, an ele will go down easier to pocket raptors, but they also have a ton of PBAoE skills which destroy raptors in turn. Hell, there is trait which drops a Lava Font when you down, which would kill half the raptors and rally you even if they took you by surprise.

But really, I mean really, don’t come to HoT if you haven’t learned how to play your class, or if your gear is not up to scratch. If they have to balance the zones for people doing that, then the rest of us who do know how to use our skills effectively have no reason to ever do so.

This is an end game zone. Treat it as such.

Shylock.4653:

Romo.3709:

Hero points should be just that – Hero Points, not Zerg points.

Hero points should be just that – Hero Points, not go there and auto attack 10 times in a row points like in Core Tyria. ;-)

Hero Challenges in HoT gives 10 times more reward than the ones in Core Tyria, so they need to be more difficult. Maybe some need a bit of tuning but the most are OK.

Hero challenges in HoT give 10x the points as the ones in core because ANet wanted players to have to play through a lot of HoT to unlock them. That does not mean they had to be group events. Making them group events is untenable as a long term thing.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Shylock.4653:

Romo.3709:

Hero points should be just that – Hero Points, not Zerg points.

Hero points should be just that – Hero Points, not go there and auto attack 10 times in a row points like in Core Tyria. ;-)

Hero Challenges in HoT gives 10 times more reward than the ones in Core Tyria, so they need to be more difficult. Maybe some need a bit of tuning but the most are OK.

Hero challenges in HoT give 10x the points as the ones in core because ANet wanted players to have to play through a lot of HoT to unlock them. That does not mean they had to be group events. Making them group events is untenable as a long term thing.

Yeah, that, it was pretty obviously a “devalue the hero points the players already had” kind of thing.

Also, locking your personal map completion behind begging other players for help is a terrible, terrible idea.

Ardid.7203:

Hmm…

I have been “randomly” one shot by the acid wyverns in Dragon stand. It happened the first two times I did that metaevent.

After that I learned to not stand over the acid areas, but keep close to them, because the wyverns usually target different areas of the floating island, and to quickly avoid to the side if RNG jesus still choose to dump that green thing over my toon. It is also very wise to NOT be alone in the islands, just in case the acid still downs you:

They also go in a crisscross pattern.

normally other players will quickly revive you if you aren’t fully dead. It is a group event, after all.

or you end up getting 1+ people killed along the way.

I doubt Shylock is full of it, because I’m hardly a high-skilled player, yet I can easily avoid being one shooted, even when using full viper armor. (Yes, I know is not that efficient in pve, but I prefer condi to power most of the time.)

Deaths from those attacks aren’t all that frequent but that is not an excuse for bad design. Having the ground effect persist on screen after they are not longer there doesn’t help.

Against the smokescales the answer is twofolds: alertness and surprise. They are dumber than most players, and have low hp. So the more effective way to kill them is to strike first, and hard. I usually launch a good initial attack, taking a good 2/3 of their lifebar, then block or avoid their multi-attack, then finish them when they are on cooldown. Is not “easy”, but I wouldn’t ever call it “hard”. The only mandatory part is to see them before they see you.

Better yet. Don’t bother engaging at all.

Shadowleapers, I don’t know, I usually just CC them, and try to avoid their attacks through them, so I got to their backs. Surprise attacks also work well against them.

Also not worth the effort especially in more open areas where you know they will eventually leap backwards far enough that they end up out of their own leash range and then …. meh

CCs work assuming you aren’t using ranged ones and “ranged” does not seem to be determined by your position relative to the mob but simply based on what skill you are using.

HoT. Berserker isn’t everything.

It is great for actually killing things in a timely manner. It’s not like those CCs are going last forever.

I’d probably play them more..

TPMN.1483:

If they nerfed difficulty.. I would consider uninstalling.

And ten other players would consider coming back? Who wins this?

Look, personally I find the difficulty of the HoT maps just right. I have a love/hate relationship to snipers. I think the majority of player casualties on these maps are caused by these critters. One or two of them – no prob, they are fun to fight. 4 of them in a bunch of other mobs somewhere during DS lane progression and you can finish your Combat Healer achievement, if you haven’t done so. Very nice design combined with rooting husks etc.

But nevertheless there is a ton of players out there who think it is too much for them to enjoy the maps. And the majority is more likely to pay the money needed for this game to continue than a tiny minority of players who can solo everything (or claim to do so). Let’s be honest: if you are on the lookout of real challenges, this might not be the game where you find them, at least not in open world content and it’s ok that way. GW2 should find its way back to its core strength: enjoyment, exploration, cooperative gameplay. Please let’s get away with that “challenge” stuff. Even if everybody on this forum wanted challenge (which is definitely not true), it would still be only a tiny minority of players. Stop caring for minorities if it is an either/or decision.
Raids are ok, since most can stay away from them (although I found it irritating that they scraped the legendary weapons team to help others and not the raid team, but that’s another story).

We are debating personal feelings here and it’s not going anywhere. None of you can persuade me to start enjoying game design I just don’t like and vice versa. I know folks don’t care that someone is dissatisfied as long as they are happy. I know said folks in a game environment would gladly tell the dissatisfied party to go away or something along those lines. Its fine really, Im sure any game developer would agree with you.

You people think that “annoying” being subjective and all is not a problem, I think it is. Time will tell what Arenanet thinks, so we wait and see.

I’m fine as long no one pretend subjective opinions are objective reasons, or that their subjective opinions weigh more than other people subjective opinions.

Fact: HoT maps are end game zones designed as “challenging content”, yet everything in them is defeatable if you pay attention, learn the patterns, play carefuly and don’t pretend to faceroll everything on your own.

Opinion: I love it.

Sheesh, I did not complain about the difficulty, I complained about the lack of scaling. All events should be scaleable from solo to zerg numbers (which Anet was the first to create). Of course the one thing I wish Anet would do is eliminate the concept of “in combat” waypoints. Waypoints should always be open, and if they are in combat, and you waypoint in a mob infested area you should get ganked (would make the game more fun then just shutting off access with a simplistic binary switch).

I fully agree on the scaling. Soloing a champ should be really hard, but not directly impossible.

If it wasn’t such a difficult area i would actually play there. I went in,died 50 times until i finally got my gliding and haven’t been back since.
I hope the hardcore players enjoy their area and if there is another expansion i won’t be buying it.

Shylock.4653:

Nilkemia.8507:

And even when there is, the sheer number of enemies around when an event scales leave few options that work in one’s favor.

When an event scales the amount of friendly players increase. You don’t have to fight all that enemies alone. In my experience most events get easier with more players.

Except when said players don’t exist. As shown below.

Saudi.5320:

PLS ANET give us SW type meta for new maps and even for higher level tyria maps. And fix the events in VB so you can still WP.

Please no, the SW meta is so insanely boring and Vinewrath is the epitome of press 1 to succeed content

Valento.9852:

Since 2014 it’s become known that ANet had hired someone in order to bring more challenging content to the game, and we’ve seen some effects of that as time passed. It’s also common sense that, although we want complex enemy behavior, it’s easier said than done, specifically considering the very nature of MMOs. This has all been done in response to a huge outcry for challenging content ever since people realized dungeons+fractals weren’t really examples of difficulty.

With all that being said, how would you guys (both veterans, and non-veterans) receive a news that HoT map mobs’ AI/group comps have been changed in order to provide easier encounters? How would the community perceive HoT encounters if they were to be downgraded in difficulty to match Central Tyria? Would you be against it or in favor? What your suggestions would be to improve the maps?

It wouldn’t really bother me honestly. I play games to relax. I enjoy challenge everyday in real life. In my games, I just like to relax and enjoy the scenery and story. If they made changes to HoT that allowed me to stop and stroll and smell the roses more, I’d be fine with it. As always, I think soloable HCs and map completions not tied to the story or events would improve those maps.

This is what I see with questions like this, the people answering either way for or against is a tiny (really tiny) of what is really going on in the game either way. Anet is truly the only ones with the numbers. Any where from 100k to a couple million players are in this game (I have no clue to the real numbers so not trying to say). So to me an in game poll would be the only accurate way to get the true idea’s of what the majority want or do not want. All I can say is no game survives on only 5% to 10% of the players liking the largest open world content.

I think the maps answer this question perfectly, i keep being asked to jump servers because they are empty and i see like 5-8 people in them over a 3 hour period…

If that’s working as intended for an mmorpg then ok..

HoT maps aren’t difficult. What you talking about Willis?

Oh you mean relying on others not to fail the group events so you can get your individual rewards maps? wasting 2hours in a DS meta only to fail cause one group doesn’t know the fight and even after 6 months they still don’t know it and fail? those maps you mean are difficult?

Its less difficult and more failing at working as a team maps, “cooperation, makes it happen, cooperation working together, dig it”. Sorry that song might be from sesame street

as far as never seeing anyone… A Tangled Depths map could be full but because of the verticality of that map it might seem like no one is in it, and you are alone.

Does it need to be nerfed to core Tyria levels? Definitely not.

But could it be tweaked (nerfs here, better telegraphs there, better scaling over there, etc) to make it so that the difficulty comes from the right aspects of the game? Yes.

Maybe the swarming pocket raptors don’t need as much health. The telegraphs for the one shot attacks could be a bit more flashy to overcome all of the other visual clutter from everyone else and their attacks. Scaling for events could be better so that the HP train doesn’t ramp up the scaling for the meta events that they are not participating in.

I have a love/hate relationship with the HoT maps. And I’ve only been to Verdant Brink and I only have gliding level 1. I love that it is a challenge and that I have to stay on my toes when I’m on the map (I play it as a squishy Elementalist/Tempest in a combination of Zerker and Clerics gear). But I hate it because the navigation of the map is really complicated and I spend more time trying to figure out how I’m supposed to get where I’m going to and then when I do get there, I get killed because I don’t know the enemies well enough to know their telegraphs yet and have to spend another 10-15 minutes trying to figure out how I got there in the first place. Again. And then after one or two more tries at it, I rage quit and play one of my other toons or go play in Core Tyria. Which is counterproductive to actually getting good in HoT maps…

Main issue is likely my lack of ability to move and attack at the same time… I can’t quite get the hang of it.

Kelly.7019:

Oh you mean relying on others not to fail the group events so you can get your individual rewards maps? wasting 2hours in a DS meta only to fail cause one group doesn’t know the fight and even after 6 months they still don’t know it and fail? those maps you mean are difficult?

I think you mean “get to the final fight and then the instance gets closed without any warning”.