Guild Wars 2

Forum bug 1 – Vayne 0

The majority doesn’t want challenging content. You really think coders can’t code challenging A.I.? It’s really not that hard. If Anet wanted to, they could make every boss as difficult as Liadri, or even harder.

The problem is, when frustration sets in, players give up. I don’t really blame them either. If something is too frustrating for a game, i’d rather not be playing it. I’d rather have enjoyment instead of frustration. There needs to be a balance between the two, which is the most challenging thing on the developer side.

It’s not just Anet either, but most MMOs do this too. Why do you think players in these other games always complain about “dumbed down content”, which isn’t true at all. It’s balancing the game for all types of players, whether if it’s for physical disabilities, new players, veterans, and casual or hardcore players.

Should there be challenging content for those who want it? Sure, but it needs to be balanced for all playstyles, otherwise you will neglect everyone else who doesn’t want challenging content.

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Perhaps anet should rescind the NPE to prepare new players for all this upcoming ‘challenging’ content. Otherwise, they are moving the game in opposing directions. If the early game is designed for people who are allegedly confused by things like feeding cows, and the end game is designed for people who like participating in ‘coordinated zergfests’, then where do the twain meet?

Is there some hidden correlation between entertaining cows and succeeding at Triple Trouble?

I didn’t realize those changes in the 1-15 zones negated anything that happens after. Hell if they play through the story, both Drytop and Silverwastes have their share of challenges that will teach players how to play.

Of course, that’s assuming people will learn how to play which doesn’t always happen.

The changes in the 1-15 zones were made specifically to negate something which allegedly came after, that being people not staying with the game, due, evidently, to those introductory portions being too confusing for many new players.

If anet felt it was necessary to simplify the introductory portions just to get people to keep playing, why would they think the people retained due to that simplification would want more ‘challenging’ content later on?

It’s called a learning curve for a reason. Some people take more time to invest and when they do they do want to go on…but they still need that time up front. I know this because I’ve seen it with people in my guild. Some of them take a very long time to get better at playing the game, but many of them (not all of them) do make that jump. And most of us will never be the solo dungeon crowd, but we can certainly play the game and become competent at it, even if it takes us longer.

The problem Anet had was that some people couldn’t get in at ground level, or didn’t stay long enough to think they could make that progress. There’s very little more frustrating to some people than not being able to start something at all. Sometimes people need that extra push.

But stereotyping all people who start more slowly as people who’ll never want to do better is simply wrong. A percentage of people will get better if they’re allowed the opportunity to do so. Sometimes it means finding someone to show you the ropes or finding the right guild, but first you have to stay long enough for that to happen.

Challenging content is going to be different to everyone anyway, but there were plenty of people in my guild who couldn’t beat Lupi, who now go through him without dying.

It’s not about learning curves or about easing people into the game and watching them blossom into MMO wunderkinds joyfully soloing Tequatl later. It’s about what people want from the game. If people didn’t want any sort of challenge in the early stages (oh, I get it, I pick this food up, take it to the cow, and… ah hah!) then they probably won’t want it later.

Dramatization:

Anet: Here, new player, nice easy stuff! See how fun? Dance with the cows!
Player: Ooh! Ahh! Cows! I’m sticking with this game!

Later…

Anet: Hey, hey, we have some challenging HOT content for you!

lordkrall.7241:

Triple Trouble and Tequatl is also still challenging to many players.

It’s challenging to below-average players.

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

the game had other problems, performance issues that made it unplayable for everyone with an amd cpu. the attuenment quest sucked, the leveling experience sucked (i liked it, most people didnt, and i can understand why). the itemization sucked, because pre raid gear was BiS gear even in and after the first raid.

all of it is fixed by now. the only people who say “wildstar failed because of the hardcore content” are the ones who want everything regardless of effort and the ones who dont want to accept that they are really bad players.

hardcore content is never the reason why a game fails. people just make it look like it is because talking kitten about the game is obviously easier than admitting that you are just bad.

nexxe.7081:

Should there be challenging content for those who want it? Sure, but it needs to be balanced for all playstyles, otherwise you will neglect everyone else who doesn’t want challenging content.

and this makes even less sense, if not no sense at all. you cant neglect everyone who doesnt want challenging content by creating challenging content. why? if they dont want it they simply dont have to play it.
yeah, it is that easy.

there is more than enough to do for players who dont want to improve.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Perhaps anet should rescind the NPE to prepare new players for all this upcoming ‘challenging’ content. Otherwise, they are moving the game in opposing directions. If the early game is designed for people who are allegedly confused by things like feeding cows, and the end game is designed for people who like participating in ‘coordinated zergfests’, then where do the twain meet?

Is there some hidden correlation between entertaining cows and succeeding at Triple Trouble?

I didn’t realize those changes in the 1-15 zones negated anything that happens after. Hell if they play through the story, both Drytop and Silverwastes have their share of challenges that will teach players how to play.

Of course, that’s assuming people will learn how to play which doesn’t always happen.

The changes in the 1-15 zones were made specifically to negate something which allegedly came after, that being people not staying with the game, due, evidently, to those introductory portions being too confusing for many new players.

If anet felt it was necessary to simplify the introductory portions just to get people to keep playing, why would they think the people retained due to that simplification would want more ‘challenging’ content later on?

It’s called a learning curve for a reason. Some people take more time to invest and when they do they do want to go on…but they still need that time up front. I know this because I’ve seen it with people in my guild. Some of them take a very long time to get better at playing the game, but many of them (not all of them) do make that jump. And most of us will never be the solo dungeon crowd, but we can certainly play the game and become competent at it, even if it takes us longer.

The problem Anet had was that some people couldn’t get in at ground level, or didn’t stay long enough to think they could make that progress. There’s very little more frustrating to some people than not being able to start something at all. Sometimes people need that extra push.

But stereotyping all people who start more slowly as people who’ll never want to do better is simply wrong. A percentage of people will get better if they’re allowed the opportunity to do so. Sometimes it means finding someone to show you the ropes or finding the right guild, but first you have to stay long enough for that to happen.

Challenging content is going to be different to everyone anyway, but there were plenty of people in my guild who couldn’t beat Lupi, who now go through him without dying.

It’s not about learning curves or about easing people into the game and watching them blossom into MMO wunderkinds joyfully soloing Tequatl later. It’s about what people want from the game. If people didn’t want any sort of challenge in the early stages (oh, I get it, I pick this food up, take it to the cow, and… ah hah!) then they probably won’t want it later.

Dramatization:

Anet: Here, new player, nice easy stuff! See how fun? Dance with the cows!
Player: Ooh! Ahh! Cows! I’m sticking with this game!

Later…

Anet: Hey, hey, we have some challenging HOT content for you!

I’ve already told you and you’ve already ignored it. I know people who do like challenging content that were slow starters. I don’t care if you believe me or not, but it’s true.

What I think most people want is challenging content that they can beat without devoting their lives to it. Because everyone has different levels of skill. So what’s challenging to them may not be challenging to you.

Just because people have different levels of what they find challenging doesn’t mean they don’t want challenge. They may, however, not want YOUR challenge.

Challenge isn’t a objective, it’s subjective.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve already told you and you’ve already ignored it. I know people who do like challenging content that were slow starters. I don’t care if you believe me or not, but it’s true.

What I think most people want is challenging content that they can beat without devoting their lives to it. Because everyone has different levels of skill. So what’s challenging to them may not be challenging to you.

Just because people have different levels of what they find challenging doesn’t mean they don’t want challenge. They may, however, not want YOUR challenge.

Challenge isn’t a objective, it’s subjective.

I don’t know who you’re responding to here, because you don’t seem to be responding to anything I’ve said. I’m not talking about what constitutes ‘challenging’ content, or what I personally find challenging, nor am I contesting your honesty. Where is that coming from?

I’ll try once more, even though I don’t know how I can make it any more plain than I already have.

Anet changed the starting part of the game in an attempt to retain more new players. They did this by simplifying things. This implies that the sort of player they want to retain likes simplified things.

Now, they’re talking about adding more ‘challenging’ content with HoT. Who is this ‘challenging’ content FOR? The new players retained by NPE? Those players for whom they expressly changed the starting part of the game? If those players stayed with the game because they liked the simplified content early on, does it follow that they — the majority, not just the handful of exceptions you know personally — will want ‘challenging’ content now? And if not, what happens then?

Are there enough old players left for HoT?

rotten.9753:

lordkrall.7241:

Triple Trouble and Tequatl is also still challenging to many players.

It’s challenging to below-average players.

Maybe so at this point in its life.

That’s the problem with one-size-fits-all-challenges (i.e., in persistent world where everyone can and does participate). It cannot be tuned for the high and very-high ranges of player skill. The developer tunes it for whatever “average” is. Over time, all PvE content gets easier due to the practice effect , so it’s quite possible the bar moves down to include the below average and maybe even the low skilled players.

SP games solve this with difficulty settings, but this is much harder in an MMO. I can remember only one MMO where mobs scaled based in individual player stats in open areas and none where they scaled to challenge the skill of players.

So, will HoT present greater challenges. I expect ANet will try, and that they will succeed to the extent that DT and SW present greater challenge than earlier areas. I expect HoT will move that a step up. Will they create challenge that will stand the test of time, though. Unless they find some way to randomize mob behaviors with a huge assortment of possible moves, no, they won’t succeed in negating the practice effect.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve already told you and you’ve already ignored it. I know people who do like challenging content that were slow starters. I don’t care if you believe me or not, but it’s true.

What I think most people want is challenging content that they can beat without devoting their lives to it. Because everyone has different levels of skill. So what’s challenging to them may not be challenging to you.

Just because people have different levels of what they find challenging doesn’t mean they don’t want challenge. They may, however, not want YOUR challenge.

Challenge isn’t a objective, it’s subjective.

I don’t know who you’re responding to here, because you don’t seem to be responding to anything I’ve said. I’m not talking about what constitutes ‘challenging’ content, or what I personally find challenging, nor am I contesting your honesty. Where is that coming from?

I’ll try once more, even though I don’t know how I can make it any more plain than I already have.

Anet changed the starting part of the game in an attempt to retain more new players. They did this by simplifying things. This implies that the sort of player they want to retain likes simplified things.

Now, they’re talking about adding more ‘challenging’ content with HoT. Who is this ‘challenging’ content FOR? The new players retained by NPE? Those players for whom they expressly changed the starting part of the game? If those players stayed with the game because they liked the simplified content early on, does it follow that they — the majority, not just the handful of exceptions you know personally — will want ‘challenging’ content now? And if not, what happens then?

Are there enough old players left for HoT?

NPE is not about retention. It is about hooking new players. HoT is about retention (as are Dry Top and the Silverwastes). I don’t really understand how you can think otherwise.

Sure, Vayne, most of us get that there’s enough challenge in this game for many people. The problem is this: if you only play 5 hours a week, you still probably haven’t done all the content that exists NOW. So you don’t need more content, at least not as much as somebody who plays 30-40 hours and has mastered all the existing content.

The request for challenging content is coming from and meant for players who either invest a ton of time or are just naturally more skillful at games. They don’t have anything made for them, apart from maybe high level Fractals and a small handful of dungeon paths, and even those are too easy.

There is already a TON of easy and lightly challenging content in this game and very little challenging content. Forget build diversity, I want challenge diversity.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve already told you and you’ve already ignored it. I know people who do like challenging content that were slow starters. I don’t care if you believe me or not, but it’s true.

What I think most people want is challenging content that they can beat without devoting their lives to it. Because everyone has different levels of skill. So what’s challenging to them may not be challenging to you.

Just because people have different levels of what they find challenging doesn’t mean they don’t want challenge. They may, however, not want YOUR challenge.

Challenge isn’t a objective, it’s subjective.

I don’t know who you’re responding to here, because you don’t seem to be responding to anything I’ve said. I’m not talking about what constitutes ‘challenging’ content, or what I personally find challenging, nor am I contesting your honesty. Where is that coming from?

I’ll try once more, even though I don’t know how I can make it any more plain than I already have.

Anet changed the starting part of the game in an attempt to retain more new players. They did this by simplifying things. This implies that the sort of player they want to retain likes simplified things.

Now, they’re talking about adding more ‘challenging’ content with HoT. Who is this ‘challenging’ content FOR? The new players retained by NPE? Those players for whom they expressly changed the starting part of the game? If those players stayed with the game because they liked the simplified content early on, does it follow that they — the majority, not just the handful of exceptions you know personally — will want ‘challenging’ content now? And if not, what happens then?

Are there enough old players left for HoT?

I disagree that simplifying the beginning of something means that people it’s done for like simplified things. I think that’s a generalization that’s NOT TRUE. My experience tells me it’s not. In spite of the fact that it take some people longer to get there, some of those people DO get there. At which point, those people will play harder content. But they can’t get there if they leave at the start.

You’re just making an assumption that people are used to this sort of game or MMOs and they can make the jump to it easily. Anet’s changes are more than just making the game easier. They’re slowing down the rate at which someone experiences new stuff, mostly the first time they play.

Now you’re right in that some of those people won’t want difficult content. But you can’t talk for all of those people. Some people who start off slow WILL end up playing difficult content.

That’s why I keep saying and that’s what you keep ignoring.

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

They also said that ~60% of the player base played solo. WildStar’s ultimate failure was that they only focused on challenging group content.

timmyf.1490:

Sure, Vayne, most of us get that there’s enough challenge in this game for many people. The problem is this: if you only play 5 hours a week, you still probably haven’t done all the content that exists NOW. So you don’t need more content, at least not as much as somebody who plays 30-40 hours and has mastered all the existing content.

The request for challenging content is coming from and meant for players who either invest a ton of time or are just naturally more skillful at games. They don’t have anything made for them, apart from maybe high level Fractals and a small handful of dungeon paths, and even those are too easy.

There is already a TON of easy and lightly challenging content in this game and very little challenging content. Forget build diversity, I want challenge diversity.

I agree with you. I want to do stuff more challenging than we have now as well. Not all the time, but some of the time. That’s not really my angle at all.

I’m just not sure I want that challenging content to be instanced. For example, I liked the Marionette fight better than I’ve liked any instance in the game.

Healix.5819:

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

They also said that ~60% of the player base played solo. WildStar’s ultimate failure was that they only focused on challenging group content.

That sounds like a failure of the players… They bought a challenging MMO built specifically around dungeons and raids and then left because there was too many dungeons and raids? That’s like saying EVE is a failure of an MMO because all the people who wanted ground combat left the game.

Someone already pointed out why Wildstar tanked. AMD systems couldn’t play the game at all. Leveling was TERRIBLE, and crafting/itemization sucked.

I hear they have fixed all those issues, and if they decide to go f2p at some point I suspect they will actually do quite well.

GW2 will NEVER have Wildstar difficulty raids/dungeons. The game caters to a different crowd, and 99.9% of GW2 players could never complete that content. We will get WoW LFR difficulty content at best. An average understanding of your class, a decent build, and ok gear will get you through with enough time.

Vayne.8563:

That’s why I keep saying and that’s what you keep ignoring.

Will the NPE players stay for HoT?

You can’t have challenging and open world. It doesn’t work. You end up having to make a faux instance by ferrying as many good people you can in and hoping you don’t get stuck with too many of the lowest common denominator players who drag down open world fights. I’ve seem Marionette fail because too many undergeared, unprepared, below average players got put into the same platform and couldn’t do the fight. I still see people in Vinewrath who can’t figure out to fill the beehive, or to run into the white triangle. These fights have to by definition be dumbed down to allow for those people to be carried, for lack of a better word.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

GW2 will NEVER have Wildstar difficulty raids/dungeons. The game caters to a different crowd, and 99.9% of GW2 players could never complete that content. We will get WoW LFR difficulty content at best. An average understanding of your class, a decent build, and ok gear will get you through with enough time.

And that’s fine with me. Then we get 2 options:

A) The content is fun and players run it so we get more of it and maybe increase the difficulty with time, maybe even add tougher challenges of the same content, like how they did with mistook instabilities in fractals
B) The content isn’t liked enough by the playerbase and not much is being added to it, or when it does is of the same difficulty level

Just like how they are adding a SINGLE map for Stronghold, they could add a SINGLE map/instance/encounter/event of “challenging content” to see how the playerbase reacts to it. Adding 10 new epic pieces of challenging content that nobody will run in the end, is a waste of time and resources, but adding just a couple of them to gauge interest and reactions is the best thing.

lordkrall.7241:

Can people name a single thing in any MMO that is more than a week month old that is challenging?

Wildstar. Of course once you are geared in the best gear the content isnt as hard but you can still wipe if you dont do the encounters properly and have fast reactions. For example they have a medal system for their dungeons. At the start of the game most groups couldnt even complete the bronze reward. Now most groups finish it on silver which is finishing it in a set time limit. There is also a gold reward that even today most people cant do, raid gear or not.

Beast Sos.1457:

lordkrall.7241:

Can people name a single thing in any MMO that is more than a week month old that is challenging?

Wildstar. Of course once you are geared in the best gear the content isnt as hard but you can still wipe if you dont do the encounters properly and have fast reactions. For example they have a medal system for their dungeons. At the start of the game most groups couldnt even complete the bronze reward. Now most groups finish it on silver which is finishing it in a set time limit. There is also a gold reward that even today most people cant do, raid gear or not.

only dungeons get easier. everything else is difficult even when you are full BiS

What is this silly notion that challenging and casual content can’t both exist in the same game. Honestly I don’t understand.

Healix.5819:

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

They also said that ~60% of the player base played solo. WildStar’s ultimate failure was that they only focused on challenging group content.

they did not only focus on challenging group content. there is plenty of stuff to do for the casual player. more than enough tbh. most people who claim wildstar failed because of the challenging content didnt even make it to 50.

few days ago a guy on reddit wanted to tell me he leveled to 12 and the dungeons were too hard. funny, you cant even enter a dungeon at level 12

Aye, I can’t help but feel the negative outlook on Wildstar is the same reason I couldn’t get into it initially. That said, I’m giving it another go $20 ain’t bad to pay for a chance at good content, can’t say I’m willing to pay the same for anything ANet’s doing.

Jelle.2807:

What is this silly notion that challenging and casual content can’t both exist in the same game. Honestly I don’t understand.

Casual player: This challenging content could have been easy for me
Non casual player: This easy content could have been challenging for me

When you try to please all you will satisfy neither (most of the time) that happened with Black Desert as well even the casuals are tired of the RNG grind,tanky easy trash mobs etc. only superior in graphics and customization at least in Korea right now. To those saying the game is intended for casuals you can’t really prove that, it is casual but it wasn’t intended so they just rolled with it and weren’t familiar with the possible results, now they are I’m not saying it will/could become hardcore but definitely anti casual/active.

@Thread Stop using other mmos if you are being biased.

Sagat.3285:

Casual player: This challenging content could have been easy for me
Non casual player: This easy content could have been challenging for me

When you try to please all you will satisfy neither (most of the time) that happened with Black Desert as well even the casuals are tired of the RNG grind,tanky easy trash mobs etc. only superior in graphics and customization at least in Korea right now. To those saying the game is intended for casuals you can’t really prove that, it is casual but it wasn’t intended so they just rolled with it and weren’t familiar with the possible results, now they are I’m not saying it will/could become hardcore but definitely anti casual/active.

@Thread Stop using other mmos if you are being biased.

I’d like you to stop dividing community to casual and non casual players because it has nothing to do with how hard this game should be. Casualness implies only how much effort you want put into a game, not how good you are. I’m a fairly casual player who plays less than 2 hours daily and yet I would really appreciate something more challenging than looting pinata.

rotten.9753:

Sagat.3285:

Casual player: This challenging content could have been easy for me
Non casual player: This easy content could have been challenging for me

When you try to please all you will satisfy neither (most of the time) that happened with Black Desert as well even the casuals are tired of the RNG grind,tanky easy trash mobs etc. only superior in graphics and customization at least in Korea right now. To those saying the game is intended for casuals you can’t really prove that, it is casual but it wasn’t intended so they just rolled with it and weren’t familiar with the possible results, now they are I’m not saying it will/could become hardcore but definitely anti casual/active.

@Thread Stop using other mmos if you are being biased.

I’d like you to stop dividing community to casual and non casual players because it has nothing to do with how hard this game should be. Casualness implies only how much effort you want put into a game, not how good you are. I’m a fairly casual player who plays less than 2 hours daily and yet I would really appreciate something more challenging than looting pinata.

And as if it wouldn’t be possible to create 2 version of content.
Since he is talking like there are ONLY 2 kinds of players: Casuals and None-casuals Anet could create a map that is 2 things at once:
1. An open world with enemies you can kill by just pressing one button
2. An instanced “raid” with hard enemies

Both would use mostly the same enviroment, enemy models, sounds and animations. The only thing that has to be done “twice” is the AI, the mechanics and the enemy “stats”.

Neox.3497:

rotten.9753:

Sagat.3285:

Casual player: This challenging content could have been easy for me
Non casual player: This easy content could have been challenging for me

When you try to please all you will satisfy neither (most of the time) that happened with Black Desert as well even the casuals are tired of the RNG grind,tanky easy trash mobs etc. only superior in graphics and customization at least in Korea right now. To those saying the game is intended for casuals you can’t really prove that, it is casual but it wasn’t intended so they just rolled with it and weren’t familiar with the possible results, now they are I’m not saying it will/could become hardcore but definitely anti casual/active.

@Thread Stop using other mmos if you are being biased.

I’d like you to stop dividing community to casual and non casual players because it has nothing to do with how hard this game should be. Casualness implies only how much effort you want put into a game, not how good you are. I’m a fairly casual player who plays less than 2 hours daily and yet I would really appreciate something more challenging than looting pinata.

And as if it wouldn’t be possible to create 2 version of content.
Since he is talking like there are ONLY 2 kinds of players: Casuals and None-casuals Anet could create a map that is 2 things at once:
1. An open world with enemies you can kill by just pressing one button
2. An instanced “raid” with hard enemies

Both would use mostly the same enviroment, enemy models, sounds and animations. The only thing that has to be done “twice” is the AI, the mechanics and the enemy “stats”.

I actually see 3 types casuals,actives and hardcores. What the casuals fear in this thread is hardcore content not active one devs gets those confused sometimes too. I didn’t give my definition of casual play but we are talking content not really players, casual content doesn’t have consequences for individual choices,active does hardcore brings punishments.

With player yes it doesn’t matter how much you play it’s how much you accomplish but my point still sends many of any sides are selfish and see time used on the other types misused.

maddoctor.2738:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

GW2 will NEVER have Wildstar difficulty raids/dungeons. The game caters to a different crowd, and 99.9% of GW2 players could never complete that content. We will get WoW LFR difficulty content at best. An average understanding of your class, a decent build, and ok gear will get you through with enough time.

And that’s fine with me. Then we get 2 options:

A) The content is fun and players run it so we get more of it and maybe increase the difficulty with time, maybe even add tougher challenges of the same content, like how they did with mistook instabilities in fractals
B) The content isn’t liked enough by the playerbase and not much is being added to it, or when it does is of the same difficulty level

Just like how they are adding a SINGLE map for Stronghold, they could add a SINGLE map/instance/encounter/event of “challenging content” to see how the playerbase reacts to it. Adding 10 new epic pieces of challenging content that nobody will run in the end, is a waste of time and resources, but adding just a couple of them to gauge interest and reactions is the best thing.

ANet has already been experimenting since FotM to try to find a content formula that works. That is to say, a formula for content that pleases the most fans. These experiments included TA/AP, Teq, Wurm, Marionette, Liadri, DT, LS S2 and SW. At each step, I’d say they’ve been looking at numbers, like how many attempts, how many failures, how many repeat attempts. The question is, how successful were/are all these experiments? The only build-on attempts were TT and SW, building on Teq and DT, respectively.

They’ve also been experimenting with mob difficulty, starting as far back as the Risen/Krait rewrites, with the most recent tweaks being Mordrem. All of the armies added or revised since November, 2012 have been objectively harder than the launch mobs. Whether this trend will continue past the Mordrem, or whether other launch armies will ever be revised, remains to be seen.

Based purely on the perceivable results (i.e., which experiments they repeat or modify, which they abandon and the fact that they are still trying new things) I believe we can conclude that:

1. ANet continues to want to provide greater difficulty, but wants to do so in a way that works for as many players as possible.
2. ANet’s vision for the game, a game that is primarily built around large events in the persistent world, remains in full force.
3. That types of content that would provide greater challenge, but which might not be utilized by a lot of players, is being back-burnered or abandoned.

Number 2 is especially important. Given the role of player skill and reactions in determining whether GW2 PvE provides adequate challenge, it’s close to impossible to present content that will challenge the high end of skill while sticking to a large group open access paradigm.

I’m sure they will put “more challenging” content in there, but just how much is hard to say. Likely it’ll be mixed.

I pref more challenging content like Lyss or Grenth, not speaking of limp defense at all but the full assault chain… and even best with ~20 people during north America late night hours. That’s like 50% chance Grenth will fail unless everyone really pays attention.

But my hopes are not up for stuff like that, likely it’ll be more like DT and SW, which is ok, though a bit too dependent on having ~60+ people that know what they are doing as opposed to 20.

However, with day/night cycles… it really would be nice as some suggested where day focuses on building defenses and night just being insane fighting. Then casual players can hold out behind barricades, repair walls, craft temporary arrows with temporary mats – for arrow carts to be delivered, while the rest are out in the insane action.

imo there are ways to diversify tasks within zone wide event situations w/o it all jest being one big zerg and everyone doing the same thing. Games have done that successfully for years, an example being engineers in old planetside1 constantly repairing turrets and vehicles during a siege etc. Successful and entertaining events have diversity of roles, and not necessarily being class dependent.

nexxe.7081:

The majority doesn’t want challenging content. You really think coders can’t code challenging A.I.? It’s really not that hard. If Anet wanted to, they could make every boss as difficult as Liadri, or even harder.

(bold mine)

I love it when people not working on the project who likely don’t have even the beginnings of the knowledge to script ‘smart’ enemies say things like “It’s really not that hard”

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

That’s why I keep saying and that’s what you keep ignoring.

Will the NPE players stay for HoT?

Why wouldn’t they? I have NPE players in my guild who will.

NoTrigger.8396:

Healix.5819:

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

They also said that ~60% of the player base played solo. WildStar’s ultimate failure was that they only focused on challenging group content.

they did not only focus on challenging group content. there is plenty of stuff to do for the casual player. more than enough tbh. most people who claim wildstar failed because of the challenging content didnt even make it to 50.

few days ago a guy on reddit wanted to tell me he leveled to 12 and the dungeons were too hard. funny, you cant even enter a dungeon at level 12

Funny that isn’t what the Wildstar devs said about it.

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

Healix.5819:

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

They also said that ~60% of the player base played solo. WildStar’s ultimate failure was that they only focused on challenging group content.

they did not only focus on challenging group content. there is plenty of stuff to do for the casual player. more than enough tbh. most people who claim wildstar failed because of the challenging content didnt even make it to 50.

few days ago a guy on reddit wanted to tell me he leveled to 12 and the dungeons were too hard. funny, you cant even enter a dungeon at level 12

Funny that isn’t what the Wildstar devs said about it.

have you played the game? nope? ok thats all i need to know.
everything i said above is true.

Silicato.4603:

ColinJohanson.2394:

I will add we want our open world content experience to be more challenging as well just in general. Though the AI was better in our CBT experience – we think we still have a lot of work to do to get our creatures and encounters even at the start of Verdant Brink up to where we want them to be. Our game has great combat, our creatures and encounters should challenge and require you to use that combat system.

Ok, but just please remember that your player base is mainly casual and we want and like cooperative/solo easy and happy play.
Im sure you in Anet knows it (proof of that is all the nerfing in the last 3 years in difficulty, dailies and logging rewards… etc)

I feel someone has to say something about it cause forums are the playground for people who want changes, who doesnt like the game too much.
But what about the ones who actually like it just as it is?

I understand that you guys want to make it a little harder so people who demands that (a challenging game) come back to the game, but don’t go too far on that direction or you’ll may loose everyone (cause you know, haters are gonna hate, and lovers can hate too)
Just saying.

I personally dont like games where you need hours and days to finish one piece of content or where you need to improve your skills and try/fail, try/fail and try/fail.
I work, i have a life, a family and i don’t have too much time to spend on “challenging content” in a game.
But it is actually beyond that, it is not that i just cant play that way, it is that i dont want to XD. Some people just like easy game play. And im sure you anet has figures and numbers and you know what kind of players do you have and what they actually like.

If HoT is going to follow that “challenging” path (even if is not challenging enough, wich i suspect) I may reconsider buying it. The good thing about buying and paying for an expansion is that the ball is in the consumer roof at this point. We can decide what kind of game we want to buy or not so, if you want to give us difficult content… it is good to know

Before, I didnt actually expect HoT to be challenging or difficult, I took all this words just as a marketing strategy to bring more people into the game. The more the marrier, and i agree.

But after seeing that beta cycle, where day/night took 2 hours (2 hours of gameplay for just one event chain it is no casual at all, even when the events were easy. The chain events for SW and DT are already long enough in my opinion, so imagine 2 hours…)… and now reading this words from Colin… im starting to think that they actually have decided to make the game less casual and more challenging.

Of course im sure it will never be as challenging as people who likes challenging games demand, but it may be enough challeging (specially in “time terms”) for the casual playerbase.

Time will tell i guess.
Hopefully the game stay casual and people who enjoy GW2 can enjoy (and buy ) HoT.
If not, i just hope that you at least reach the standars of what challenging people demands, otherwise you may disappoint everyone.

Sorry, you have more then enough “easy” content in tyria, i think Expansion HoT should be hardcore and people coming there should be ready for wild wipe. Where casual people have to move out of comfort zone and actually dodge sometimes, it’s a SHAME how easy events are… you guys are insulting me/us players with this low artificial intelligence of bosses. :S

I’m not saying you should do events long and insanely hight HP so we have ot hit it 3 years before it’s dead. I just want mechanics and people to actually work together to achieve something… i’m tired of “scatterer boss events” where ppl stack on the side and just press 11111. Please aNet be more respectful and give us Coloque Queen from Dry top with better mechanics… People who don’t dodge should get 60-100% hp dmg..

NoTrigger.8396:

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

Healix.5819:

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

They also said that ~60% of the player base played solo. WildStar’s ultimate failure was that they only focused on challenging group content.

they did not only focus on challenging group content. there is plenty of stuff to do for the casual player. more than enough tbh. most people who claim wildstar failed because of the challenging content didnt even make it to 50.

few days ago a guy on reddit wanted to tell me he leveled to 12 and the dungeons were too hard. funny, you cant even enter a dungeon at level 12

Funny that isn’t what the Wildstar devs said about it.

have you played the game? nope? ok thats all i need to know.
everything i said above is true.

I did play the game, but not for long. However, the devs did come out with a comment early on, when the game was leaking subscriptions. I’m paraphrasing here, but what they said was, oh we didn’t realize how many of you guys wanted to do solo stuff. It surprised us. However, we see now that we need this other stuff and we’ll work to get it in there.

Not sure why they’d lie.

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

Healix.5819:

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

They also said that ~60% of the player base played solo. WildStar’s ultimate failure was that they only focused on challenging group content.

they did not only focus on challenging group content. there is plenty of stuff to do for the casual player. more than enough tbh. most people who claim wildstar failed because of the challenging content didnt even make it to 50.

few days ago a guy on reddit wanted to tell me he leveled to 12 and the dungeons were too hard. funny, you cant even enter a dungeon at level 12

Funny that isn’t what the Wildstar devs said about it.

have you played the game? nope? ok thats all i need to know.
everything i said above is true.

I did play the game, but not for long. However, the devs did come out with a comment early on, when the game was leaking subscriptions. I’m paraphrasing here, but what they said was, oh we didn’t realize how many of you guys wanted to do solo stuff. It surprised us. However, we see now that we need this other stuff and we’ll work to get it in there.

Not sure why they’d lie.

and what exactly does that have to do with my statement? nothing.

Firelysm.4967:

i think Expansion HoT should be hardcore and people coming there should be ready for wild wipe. Where casual people have to move out of comfort zone and actually dodge sometimes,

There’s a huge gap between hardcore and wild wipe, and “actually dodge sometimes.” So, which are you after?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Number 2 is especially important. Given the role of player skill and reactions in determining whether GW2 PvE provides adequate challenge, it’s close to impossible to present content that will challenge the high end of skill while sticking to a large group open access paradigm.

And this is exactly the reason we get threads like this. Those at the high end of skill want to have something to do in the game too, and if encounters advance difficulty progressively, low dif→mid dif→high dif then it will allow even those at the lower end of skill to “level up” their game.

maddoctor.2738:

Silicato.4603:

It is not just a matter of what HoT should have or what should have not.
It is a matter of if i’ll pay money for a kind of content or if I wont.

So if HoT has only a small part of it as “challenging” content and the rest of the expansion is not will you buy it?

I would.
I would buy it if the game is like GW2 (in its core and philosophy, i mean).
Most of the events are easy, fast, friendly and casual and then you have a few things more challenging, either on mechanics or in time consuming.
SW & DT are examples in my opinion of challenging content (mainly because of time consuming and players numbers, not because dificulty) in GW2.

And i would want that to be the exception, the “small part of challenging content” of HoT. Not its core.

So yes, i dont reject challenging content in small dosis, as an extra to the game. I just dont want a challenging game.
I mean, dont want it and I wont have it, cause i wont buy that kind of game XD.

Firelysm.4967:

Sorry, you have more then enough “easy” content in tyria, i think Expansion HoT should be hardcore and people coming there should be ready for wild wipe. Where casual people have to move out of comfort zone and actually dodge sometimes, it’s a SHAME how easy events are… you guys are insulting me/us players with this low artificial intelligence of bosses. :S

I’m not saying you should do events long and insanely hight HP so we have ot hit it 3 years before it’s dead. I just want mechanics and people to actually work together to achieve something… i’m tired of “scatterer boss events” where ppl stack on the side and just press 11111. Please aNet be more respectful and give us Coloque Queen from Dry top with better mechanics… People who don’t dodge should get 60-100% hp dmg..

Dont need to say sorry ^^
I mean, im not the one who lose if i dont have a game that i dont want XD.
In fact they will lose me as consumer, nothing else.

I just dont see the logic in your reasoning.
GW2 is easy and we bought it, and we play it.
Why making a challenging expansion is going to atract people who bought and play Gw2? if its going to be a different kind of game!

I agree with you that the game, gw2, is easy. And thats why it is a sucess, imo.
And as i say, i hope that im the only one who thinks this way, and people jump into challenging content as crazy. But i already did my prediction: it won’t work. And either they won’t sell as expected or they will have to nerf it and make casual-changes in the future.

And let me finish saying that what i have seen so far from HoT is not difficult. Im not talking about that kind of challenge. What i saw is time consuming events, event chain of 2 hours. Anticasual play. Thats what im talking about.

Compare the cow events in gw2, with the 1 hour chain event in DT, with the 2 hours chain event in east side of Verdant brink. Thats the progression that im watching, and i dont like it at all. All events are easy, but each time are less and less casual cause of the time required to complete them and the number of people needed to complait them.

they are cool, i play in DT and SW. But just as the exception, not as the norm. the game should not be a bunch of 2 hour events. And if it is, no problem, i just have to not buy it.

NoTrigger.8396:

hardcore content is never the reason why a game fails.

When a game fails it is never just because one reason. There are always several reasons for a fail.

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Should there be challenging content for those who want it? Sure, but it needs to be balanced for all playstyles, otherwise you will neglect everyone else who doesn’t want challenging content.

and this makes even less sense, if not no sense at all.

Actually, it does.

NoTrigger.8396:

you cant neglect everyone who doesnt want challenging content by creating challenging content. why? if they dont want it they simply dont have to play it.
yeah, it is that easy.

Every player has a different level what “challenging” means for his or her playstyle.

So there could be in instances an easy/normal/hard-mode-button to choose different “challenge levels”. “easy” for players that want to experience the content/story like a “walk in the park” or feel that this matches their expectation of “challenging”. And “hard” for players that want to “bite the bullet”.

Hmm… there are many players saying challenging content was challenging, but isn’t anymore. You are playing a “living” game. It’s part of the system. What do you think how hard or challenging were the first tequatl or worm kills? The great thing about this game is – you don’t need to do the boring grind to play new content like in other games. Just do everything as long as it makes fun – and after that you have to wait for new content. Maybe that’s the problem for most of the people in this thread. We love this game so much that we can’t get enough (new experiences).

NoTrigger.8396:

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

Healix.5819:

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

They also said that ~60% of the player base played solo. WildStar’s ultimate failure was that they only focused on challenging group content.

they did not only focus on challenging group content. there is plenty of stuff to do for the casual player. more than enough tbh. most people who claim wildstar failed because of the challenging content didnt even make it to 50.

few days ago a guy on reddit wanted to tell me he leveled to 12 and the dungeons were too hard. funny, you cant even enter a dungeon at level 12

Funny that isn’t what the Wildstar devs said about it.

have you played the game? nope? ok thats all i need to know.
everything i said above is true.

I did play the game, but not for long. However, the devs did come out with a comment early on, when the game was leaking subscriptions. I’m paraphrasing here, but what they said was, oh we didn’t realize how many of you guys wanted to do solo stuff. It surprised us. However, we see now that we need this other stuff and we’ll work to get it in there.

Not sure why they’d lie.

and what exactly does that have to do with my statement? nothing.

Your statement gave a reason that the game didn’t do well but the devs gave a different reason. That’s what it has to do with your statement.

As long as people argue Tequatl/TT are “challenging” content, the game won’t evolve in that direction. This is what I fear the most, and this is enough reason to scare current players and potentially new players away from this game. Game industry isn’t just about replacements, or some sort of “filter”, when MMOs become huge beasts in the market they have way bigger bills to pay, so being cult is not an option.

rotten.9753:

lordkrall.7241:

Triple Trouble and Tequatl is also still challenging to many players.

It’s challenging to below-average players.

I would say it isn’t even that players are below average, when it is really about fighting the map system to get all the people who want to do it and enough experienced leaders to spend time managing said people. The challenge is in organization and the mechanics can be taught to anyone if they are willing to learn.

Vayne.8563:

evilunderling.9265:

Vayne.8563:

I agree some of what you said. But I think there are ways to deal with the zerg mentality without actually making raids. In some ways, it’s already been done in parts of the game.

To a point, it is something you can avoid with content design, yes. But if your content designer also has to also work around a whole bunch of extra problems because the content in question isn’t instanced, that is itself is going to affect the quality of the content they design.

I strongly suspect Anet doesn’t want to add a lot fo instanced content to this game. I guess we’ll soon see if I’m right or not.

I’m happy with a fact that you are almost never right
From the very beggining, you had your ideas, your thoughts, they were wrong 90% of the time (will not say 100%).
Still, I do like they way you are discussing things, but your view is pretty big time casual, without any believing in facts that are presented.
Just can’t stop thinking when we had discussion about will expansion come or not.
Oh boy, you defended your view so strongly, yet u were wrong so badly.

There will be some type of raids, I’ve been with anet for 10 years, but when we talk about challenge, that is not the type this game is, it doesn’t have real challenge, and it will not have real challenge (as Tera for example).
It will be challenging for casual players, newcomers in the mmo world, but for us veterans, I doubt it.

Which is interesting in itself, if you ask why people want challenge, what does come to mind? Why do people play it?

From your point of the view, it’s cuz of rewards.
And that is your whole argument, and that is where you are wrong.
Challenge in itself is a reward.
Anet will never ever put other rewards behind it (ones that would be better then doing casual things), being it skins or mats (there is nothing else to be rewards).

Anyway, I would LOVE for skins to be rewards, you know why?
Cuz I’m sick and tired of skins being in gem store, for what purpose? If we watch it from the side of the gamer:
So, casual players can put their wallets out, and give money for skins?
And for you, that is alright? (I hope it’s not)

But for a challenging content to have skins that is wrong? (your view)

If that is your view, you are not really a gamer, you are casual person who plays games for fun and nothing else (which is alright, but you aren’t gamer).

Yes, Anet got a bit greedy, so you are even right about that thing. Best skins are in gem store, and will be, they have to get money out of people.

(Or we have to grind gold to get gems)….mmm…grinding for a gold to get gems to get skins…that is so fun!

TLDR. Game will have some type of raids, but it will not be challenging enough for veteran players, cuz Anet will not do it (cuz of reward system).

EDIT. By the way Vayne, you don’t have to fear about the rewards, this game doesn’t have real rewards, there is no gear treadmill, there is nothing that makes you more powerful then other person. Rewards are cosmetic, some gold, and mats.
So there is really not a reason for you to be against raids. At all

Mikali.9651:

Vayne.8563:

evilunderling.9265:

Vayne.8563:

I agree some of what you said. But I think there are ways to deal with the zerg mentality without actually making raids. In some ways, it’s already been done in parts of the game.

To a point, it is something you can avoid with content design, yes. But if your content designer also has to also work around a whole bunch of extra problems because the content in question isn’t instanced, that is itself is going to affect the quality of the content they design.

I strongly suspect Anet doesn’t want to add a lot fo instanced content to this game. I guess we’ll soon see if I’m right or not.

I’m happy with a fact that you are almost never right
From the very beggining, you had your ideas, your thoughts, they were wrong 90% of the time (will not say 100%).
Still, I do like they way you are discussing things, but your view is pretty big time casual, without any believing in facts that are presented.
Just can’t stop thinking when we had discussion about will expansion come or not.
Oh boy, you defended your view so strongly, yet u were wrong so badly.

There will be some type of raids, I’ve been with anet for 10 years, but when we talk about challenge, that is not the type this game is, it doesn’t have real challenge, and it will not have real challenge (as Tera for example).
It will be challenging for casual players, newcomers in the mmo world, but for us veterans, I doubt it.

Which is interesting in itself, if you ask why people want challenge, what does come to mind? Why do people play it?

From your point of the view, it’s cuz of rewards.
And that is your whole argument, and that is where you are wrong.
Challenge in itself is a reward.
Anet will never ever put other rewards behind it (ones that would be better then doing casual things), being it skins or mats (there is nothing else to be rewards).

Anyway, I would LOVE for skins to be rewards, you know why?
Cuz I’m sick and tired of skins being in gem store, for what purpose? If we watch it from the side of the gamer:
So, casual players can put their wallets out, and give money for skins?
And for you, that is alright? (I hope it’s not)

But for a challenging content to have skins that is wrong? (your view)

If that is your view, you are not really a gamer, you are casual person who plays games for fun and nothing else (which is alright, but you aren’t gamer).

Yes, Anet got a bit greedy, so you are even right about that thing. Best skins are in gem store, and will be, they have to get money out of people.

(Or we have to grind gold to get gems)….mmm…grinding for a gold to get gems to get skins…that is so fun!

TLDR. Game will have some type of raids, but it will not be challenging enough for veteran players, cuz Anet will not do it (cuz of reward system).

EDIT. By the way Vayne, you don’t have to fear about the rewards, this game doesn’t have real rewards, there is no gear treadmill, there is nothing that makes you more powerful then other person. Rewards are cosmetic, some gold, and mats.
So there is really not a reason for you to be against raids. At all

Actually I never once said an expasnion wouldn’t come. I always said big projects were being worked on in the background and Anet said they didn’t know how they were going to deliver them. What I didn’t want to do, and I wear this fully, is to get the hopes up of every single person to expect an expansion when Anet never said, to that point that there’d be one.

In fact, most of what I’ve said has panned out. If you go point by point you’ll find I’m right far more often them I’m wrong. Not all the time, but far greater than the 50% mark.

Including what I said about expansions.

I find it amusing that people are giving their personal assessment of what is or is not challenging. They are so self-focused they do not consider the player base at large.

It is simple arrogance, IMO, that someone will call others below average or bad players. Players are what they are. Who made any one of judge of other players? Any gaming company has to cater to all skill levels. If they just appeal to those hardcore gamers who can easily master anything, then they will be alienating a huge amount of gamers that want to pay for the game and game content.

I see where no one here sees that it is impossible to please everyone. A gaming company has to try to do their best to please the widest ranging group of players so that they can actually make money for the company and keep the game going. So players with amazing skill and those that struggle with any skills are often the casualties.

I see many here who admit that once challenging content has become easy, but it wasn’t always so. That is the way most games are. I have played many MMO’s and single player games that were once very challenging and after I got the hang of it, now are not. That doesn’t make suck or too easy it just makes it a game.

As for those who say that people don’t follow direction or the content would be easy, that makes me laugh. So what do you want? Do you want every single person on a map to listen so content will be easily completed and therefore allowing you to complain about how easy it is? Maybe your challenge is finding a way to defeat a challenge when people are NOT paying attention to the so-called experts guidance.

It just boggles my mind to see people constantly say, “I want. I want. I want.” and not consider that any game has to appeal to a larger audience than just you.

jheryn.8390:

It just boggles my mind to see people constantly say, “I dont want. I dont want. I dont want.” and not consider that any game has to appeal to a larger audience than just you.

i fixed this for you.

jheryn.8390:

I find it amusing that people are giving their personal assessment of what is or is not challenging. They are so self-focused they do not consider the player base at large.

Actually it’s the other way around, those who are asking for the game to remain as it currently is (difficulty-wise) are not considering the entire player base. I don’t think anyone on this thread, or other similar threads, ever said “make the entire game more challenging”, all people are asking for is for a tiny slice of more challenging (for them) content.

It is simple arrogance, IMO, that someone will call others below average or bad players. Players are what they are. Who made any one of judge of other players? Any gaming company has to cater to all skill levels. If they just appeal to those hardcore gamers who can easily master anything, then they will be alienating a huge amount of gamers that want to pay for the game and game content.

Emphasis in bold. Doesn’t that include those “hardcore” gamers too? Nobody wants to alienate the majority of the player base by making the game not playable by everyone, it’s those who want it to remain as it is that are alienating those who want more challenging content from the game. And I repeat, nobody (I think/hope) is asking to just focus on the “hardcore” players, that would be suicide for the game as a whole.

I see where no one here sees that it is impossible to please everyone. A gaming company has to try to do their best to please the widest ranging group of players so that they can actually make money for the company and keep the game going. So players with amazing skill and those that struggle with any skills are often the casualties.

Why can’t games have content of various difficulty levels? There is a reason lots of single player games have a difficulty setting, so they appeal to everyone, a “difficulty setting” in GW2 are the mistook instabilities in Fractals for example, “difficulty setting” in a raid MMORPG are the different versions of those raids, same story/lore/content but different challenge. Why can’t we have this in this game too, so it appeals to everyone. It’s impossible to please everyone, but difficulty/challenge isn’t a reason for that, type of content is (dueling, open world pvp, housing etc)

It just boggles my mind to see people constantly say, “I want. I want. I want.” and not consider that any game has to appeal to a larger audience than just you.

I have the same question. Why are people so adverse to adding content others might like, when it won’t affect them. It’s the same thing as someone who hates PVP comes out and says “Why are they adding Stronghold, it’s useless”, yet Arenanet tries to keep PVPers pleased as well.

NoTrigger.8396:

jheryn.8390:

It just boggles my mind to see people constantly say, “I dont want. I dont want. I dont want.” and not consider that any game has to appeal to a larger audience than just you.

i fixed this for you.

LOL. I think both ways work. My bottom line statement is that some people are going to be unhappy or complain no matter what game devs come up with.

“It’s too hard.” It’s too easy." “Loot drops too little.” “Loot drops too much.” On and on. After a while the constant attack or defense of something becomes a drone.