Where is the WvW class balance?

Where is the WvW class balance?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Spurnshadow.3678

Spurnshadow.3678

I’ve been really looking forward to HoT, however, with more and more info coming out about the new elite specs… not so much. It seems with the last update on class balance, the devs are focusing on PvE.

I say this because one of the primary feedbacks from the last BWE was that the new monsters are doing a lot of damage are have a higher health pool. After reading the posts on the class updates that just came out, it seems most of the classes are getting buffed dps. The warrior is a prime example. Yes, they toned down the rifle zerk ability, but the overall class was buffed a lot.

Here’s an example of one build that seems to me a bit rediculous:

(Please, don’t argue or reply to the build itself, such as why those runes, or I’d use this. That will derail the topic. This is just to highlight what I’m talking about.)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVMQNAT8flsAhKhYxQwZIQQELBElc3H+pvVAktvZWC2gTIA-TFyCABAcEAOZ/BnV+d8FBAZdDeq+TiKBn+BAQKg7GbB-w

If you don’t know about guardians, here’s the deal.

You will be able to apply aoe burning at a minimum of every 2.5 seconds. This will most likely occurr much faster. This is due to Supreme Justice and Permeating Wrath traits. Every 3rd hit will proc an aoe burning attack on the target. Theoretically, a well placed symbol which hits 5 targets and pulses 5 times will proc Virtue of Justice 8 times. Oh, and the longbow symbol also applies burning. Longbow 2 and 3 also pierces and longbow kittens lots of enemies. Burn, burn, burn. All from a safe distance.

As if that wasn’t enough, due to the Radiance trait line, you’ll be able to spam Virtue of Justices active effect at a certain point in the fight. That also causes burning, tether, might, retaliation, and, around you, an aoe blind.

While traps are new and shiny, I think they suck as they are targeted at your location, and there’s no guarentee they will activate. That’s a lack of dps or defense. I chose Hallowed Ground and Purging Flames as they serve both functions. The defensive are obvious, but they are both long lasting fire fields, which makes a burning bolt combo finisher. Purging flames also does massive burning damage.

If for whatever reason, you are attacked, with Amplified Wrath and Shelter, your foe will be burned, and this also will fill your Justices burning proc with Defender’s Dogma.

There are also a lot of passive dps increases. One of the never used traits, Unscathed Contender, which gives you more damage while under the effects of aegis. We never use this because as melee, we’re always getting hit. However, with a longbow, you should rarely get hit, so you will have an extra 20% dps. With Retribution, you get 10% increased damage while under the effects of retaliation, which, if you don’t have for some reason, you soon will when you start spamming Virtue of Justice. There’s Power of the Virtuous, which gives and extra 1% damage increase for each boon on you, which you should have a few, lets say 4%. There’s also Zelot’s Agression which is another 7% to crippled foes.

Here’s one for the warrior:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJMQJASUjMdQlH25BOeAdIWUCsjKYA43hE6ibXg3c7wN5C-TFSBwAFV+hT9nIKBpu/wijAgmHAQedBAuEAkCgJlRA-w

Just to quickly sum up: When running a warrior in WvW with cleansing ire and other traits, you gain adrenaline super fast. This means you’ll be able to use your burst skills right away. The hammer is an aoe attack that immobilizes, does massive damage, and is a blast finisher (some of this is not reflected in the editor). Yes, they changed the knockback to immobilization, but they increased the damage by a whopping 100%. I mean, who asked for that? Is that necessary? This dps will be insane. Oh, and add a ton of stability and a short amount of quickness.

As if that wasn’t enough, due to the Smash Brawler trait, there will be a certain point in the fight where you can just spam your F1 skill. Oh, and don’t worry about taking fatal damage because Dead or Alive will heal you. They increased the damage. It’s good that they added an internal CD, but 30 seconds? That still isn’t enough, when there are other traits that do less, but have a longer ICD, like Final Shielding on the elementalist that has a 75 second CD. Why does not dying have such a short CD? It should be at least 90 seconds. This is not balance.

There’s also an insane burn spec, but I’m kinda getting tired QQing about this stuff. I think y’all get the point.

(Again, please, don’t argue or reply to the build itself, such as why those runes, or I’d use this. That will derail the topic. This is just to highlight what I’m talking about.)

There’s another big drawback with all this dps in the new elite specs. WvW has a tendency to gravitate to the path of least resistance. Whichever class does the most dps and support vs survivability will reign supreme, hence the GWEN meta. When Anet got rid of attributes being tied to trait lines, this was a great thing that freed up a lot of builds, and created a much higher amount of diversity. This will be far from the case with the new elites. Every warrior will run Zerker. You’d be an idiot not to. Since we’re limited to 3 trait lines, that will severely limit the build choices. This is also a part of class balance.

With the much higher DPS coming out with HoT, we, in WvW are not getting inporved defenses, such as baseline toughness or better cleansing. We, as players, are not on par with the monsters in PvE, but we will be attacked like them. This basically means that whoever gets the jump on the enemy and attacks first will win. With the dumb change to stability, there will be almost no way to recover from an initial attack with all this dps and constant condi application. This needs to be toned way down or our defences as players needs to be toned way up.

Or, you could just tone down the new PvE zones so the classes remain a bit more balanced in PvP and PvE.

Blackgate Native. It takes tremendous strength and skill to pull a lever.

(edited by Spurnshadow.3678)

Where is the WvW class balance?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Mosharn.8357

Mosharn.8357

I actually like the dps increases. No one wants to fight for 20 mins because everyone is tanky. This makes the game way more active and forces bad players to learn to dodge and use their skills with thought behind it.

Every class can hit hard and every class can counter. Its fair game and keeps the game active. Please no one wants another wow type combat game where a fight lasts forever.

Gw2 was about fast counters and reacting to your opponent. Then the game overall got so defensive that people could make so many mistakes and still win due to their insane defensive stats. Before a full zerk player would be a joke to a hybrid/tank player because they can just outlast and not worry too much about mistakes. Now it all matters and every mistake can be horribly punished by good players.

I think this is the right direction for combat in gw2. It should be more active and promote skill/players reaction to skills. The game gives you plenty of tools to survive when played actively.

Just being a full tank and going out to pvp/wvw and making tons of mistakes while still being able to win is pretty kitten dumb. You should be punished for mistakes. Full defensive stats shouldn’t be a crutch for lazy players to hide behind.

Making full rounded out builds that rely on stats evenly are a good direction for the game.

But in the end of the day this is all my opinion. It keeps the game fun and active. Which is a great thing for the game and its combat style.

Where is the WvW class balance?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Spurnshadow.3678

Spurnshadow.3678

doesn’t matter how tanky you are when you constantly have 5 stacks of burning on you. And don’t tell me that my group comp needs to have cleanses. My guard and warrior both run trooper runes with shouts. You just won’t be able to group outcleanse the guardian build I posted above, or the “human torch” warrior, which I didn’t post a build of. I’m not talking 1v1. That’s not WvW. I’m talking large group combat.

Blackgate Native. It takes tremendous strength and skill to pull a lever.

Where is the WvW class balance?

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Posted by: DevilLordLaser.8619

DevilLordLaser.8619

It’s Wuv. The devs have gone on record as saying that perfect balance isn’t something they’re looking for in Wuv. It’s supposed to be huge, messy, chaotic, and prone to epic tomfoolery – that’s what it’s there for. Perfectly balanced play is what sPvP is for.

Well, that and ruining every other game mode in every other update with crazed insanity ‘adjustments’ that make negative sense…unless you’re strictly an sPvP player.

Blagh.

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Posted by: Orpheal.8263

Orpheal.8263

there has never ever been one, since game release..

if we ever wanted to put some serious Game Balance into WvW, Anet would have to do finalyl all these things:

1) Remove Food and Nourishments completely from WvW. The only Buff Effects players should get from WvW is from Shrines, Claim Buffs, WvW Traits and WvW Equipment Upgrades
2) Nerf Conditions back to their original role of being focused CONTROL GAMEPLAY and not this power creeping competitive antagonist of a Damage Role for what is mainly Direct Damage responsible for and not Conditions.
Condition Damage should NEVER rival to even overshadow significantly direct damage at all. Conditions should just be for what Conditions are mainly meant and designed for – Control and suplementary damage. For that ever to happen would have Anet finalyl to completely redesign and rebalance all Boons, all Conditions, the Base health of all Classes invidually and redesign the Stats better so that actually defensive Attributes DO MATTER and not just only the offensive ones
3) ANet would have to split up Supply into more needed Ressources for which players in WvW have to split up more to decrease the size of Zergs, so that people will make more smaller Mini zergs, instead of like 2-3 Mega Zergs only.
Its just strategetically very importan,t that Supply gets finalyl split up into more for the game important multiple ressources that players need to constantly collect to be able to fight together as efficiently as possible. If everyone just needs always only Supply, that makes things way too easy and simple. A tad more complexity absolutely wouldnt hurt WvW and would absolutely help in balancign WvW and slowing zergs more down, if they don’t actually do something constantly for all of their required ressources
4) Anet needs to add finally class specific WvW traits to give all classes in WvW better designed ROLES, stuff for that each class is special for WvW, as that would also help in balancing WvW in overall and make WvW more interesting also to play it with more, than just only 1 Class.

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside

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Posted by: TheGrimm.5624

TheGrimm.5624

there has never ever been one, since game release..

if we ever wanted to put some serious Game Balance into WvW, Anet would have to do finalyl all these things:

1) Remove Food and Nourishments completely from WvW. The only Buff Effects players should get from WvW is from Shrines, Claim Buffs, WvW Traits and WvW Equipment Upgrades
2) Nerf Conditions back to their original role of being focused CONTROL GAMEPLAY and not this power creeping competitive antagonist of a Damage Role for what is mainly Direct Damage responsible for and not Conditions.
Condition Damage should NEVER rival to even overshadow significantly direct damage at all. Conditions should just be for what Conditions are mainly meant and designed for – Control and suplementary damage. For that ever to happen would have Anet finalyl to completely redesign and rebalance all Boons, all Conditions, the Base health of all Classes invidually and redesign the Stats better so that actually defensive Attributes DO MATTER and not just only the offensive ones

Disagree on a couple the above.

Food and utility should be in play in WvW. It’s the ultimate place for designs to be tweaked, there should never be a “meta” for WvW because the situations and challenges should be diverse enough that you can never plan for what you will find. That’s what keeps this game mode always fresh. Food and utility are some ways to allow WvW to adjust aspects of their build on the fly. If anything we need additional buffs like these not have them removed.

Overtime Condi should exceed direct damage in output. That’s the point of the two. DD should be the burst side of the equation and condi should be the over time kill. Condi was never meant to be a secondary damage tool, it needed the rework. And yes I run both DD and Condi builds with some mixes.

GW/PoTBS/WAR/Rift/WAR/GW2/CU

De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.

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Posted by: Mosharn.8357

Mosharn.8357

there has never ever been one, since game release..

if we ever wanted to put some serious Game Balance into WvW, Anet would have to do finalyl all these things:

1) Remove Food and Nourishments completely from WvW. The only Buff Effects players should get from WvW is from Shrines, Claim Buffs, WvW Traits and WvW Equipment Upgrades
2) Nerf Conditions back to their original role of being focused CONTROL GAMEPLAY and not this power creeping competitive antagonist of a Damage Role for what is mainly Direct Damage responsible for and not Conditions.
Condition Damage should NEVER rival to even overshadow significantly direct damage at all. Conditions should just be for what Conditions are mainly meant and designed for – Control and suplementary damage. For that ever to happen would have Anet finalyl to completely redesign and rebalance all Boons, all Conditions, the Base health of all Classes invidually and redesign the Stats better so that actually defensive Attributes DO MATTER and not just only the offensive ones
3) ANet would have to split up Supply into more needed Ressources for which players in WvW have to split up more to decrease the size of Zergs, so that people will make more smaller Mini zergs, instead of like 2-3 Mega Zergs only.
Its just strategetically very importan,t that Supply gets finalyl split up into more for the game important multiple ressources that players need to constantly collect to be able to fight together as efficiently as possible. If everyone just needs always only Supply, that makes things way too easy and simple. A tad more complexity absolutely wouldnt hurt WvW and would absolutely help in balancign WvW and slowing zergs more down, if they don’t actually do something constantly for all of their required ressources
4) Anet needs to add finally class specific WvW traits to give all classes in WvW better designed ROLES, stuff for that each class is special for WvW, as that would also help in balancing WvW in overall and make WvW more interesting also to play it with more, than just only 1 Class.

I disagree with removing food. Everyone has access to it and it opens A LOT of builds that otherwise aren’t as viable without extra stats. This way it keeps fighting new people fresh and you don’t see the same meta or ‘’good stuff’’ builds that frequently.

As for conditions, I really wish they would introduce a second stat that is needed for conditions to be effective. Duration can be ignored in todays condi meta because there are so many sources of applying conditions rapidly with little to no effort. A second stat is really much so needed. Condi builds can just stack insane amounts of defensive stats while still tearing people apart. Power builds have to utilize 3 stats and hybrid power builds need to utilize 5 stats. Condi builds just need condi and the rest of the stats are a bonus.

Maybe they could tone down condi dmg and have critical or ’’grievous’’ condition ticks that rely on ferocity for dmg increase.

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Posted by: Doug Whisper.2465

Doug Whisper.2465

In GW1, hex ignores armor and force people to invest in health. In GW2 those become condition damage, toughness and vitality. Those are trade off and counter measures in the original design. Condition damage took a backseat for a long time is simply because the server side engine cannot handle all the calculations. And they were forced to cap the 25 stack limit to keep it intact. Now they seems have solved the server side puzzle and have a big push in condition damage starting with burning.

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Posted by: warherox.7943

warherox.7943

The only food buffs that should be removed are the +/- condi duration buffs.

Doctor Beetus – Burst Engi Maguuma
twitch.tv/doctorbeetus

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Posted by: Xzygy.1452

Xzygy.1452

I guess they’re focusing on pve because WvW is inherently about imbalance. Bigger, more coordinated groups trump small and/or uncoordinated larger groups. That one group has 10 guardians and the other has 9 and a necro doesn’t really matter when we’re talking about 50+ zergs.

That said, they do need to make sure that every class has a role to play in zerg gameplay. There is a distinct preference for warrior/guardian/elementalist/veilbot and the others aren’t turned away, but they’re substantially less effective in zerg battles.

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Posted by: Gynok.1756

Gynok.1756

Condition food buffs should be reduced to something which makes more sense like +/-10% duration. Blob fights are about evading and deploying the big bombs not sustainable damage so I don’t really see many problems caused by DOT skills in wvw because conditions are very easily cleansed.

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Posted by: DresdenAllblack.1249

DresdenAllblack.1249

Burning affects everyone equally. WvW is a condi-kingdom now. We gotta deal with it.

Angelina is free game again.
Crystal Desert