Guild Wars 2

Manasa Devi.7958:

I find it quite amusing how people are throwing the original GW2 under the bus in a futile attempt to assault people’s opinions on HoT. It makes me wonder why they even played “poor”, “easy”, “stale” GW2 at all.

I don’t think anyone is throwing the original GW2 under the bus. You’re missing why they used the original GW2 in their arguments.

Manasa Devi.7958:

And it also makes me wonder what makes them think opinions can be argued with. My perception of the luke-warm excrement that is HoT will not budge because of anything someone writes. ANet is the only party that can change it, by effecting change in HoT.

So if someone were to make a thread stating only that HoT was the greatest expansion ever made, nobody could argue against them? Since like you said, opinions cannot be argued with. Of course this is not true as people can very well dissent against someone’s opinions. Someone can post in that thread and state that they disagree which would be their own opinion.

You then have other cases where people form an opinion using a basis which can be argued against. In the thread mentioned above, let’s say that the poster said that HoT was the greatest expansion ever made because the story was longest ever made. Again, this is their opinion buy they made a claim, which they used as their basis for their opinion, which you can argue against.

Now my opinion about the expansion is that everything in Season 2 should have been included in the expansion. Of all the expansions that I have played, none have started in the middle of a story. HoT would have made more sense had it began in Dry Top. By releasing them separately, it can lead some people to have the impression that HoT is a DLC.

Edit:

Anet could have instead taken the time to cover any of the gaps from Season 1. With the expansion’s story being self-contained, they could have made it flow better and reduced any inconsistencies as well as any gaps in that story as well.

It felt like Season 2 was originally meant to be part of the expansion but was released separately so players would have content between season 1 and HoT.

Sird.4536:

Winning an award when no other game is good enough is nothing to celebrate. Where is GW2 competition? Still doesn’t mean that the current state of the game is healthy.

Healthier than the rest, good enough for the company that makes it to greenlight another expansion less than 3 months after the first one launches….
Sure don’t open the expensive scotch, but quit digging graves.

Raziel.4216:

Sird.4536:

Winning an award when no other game is good enough is nothing to celebrate. Where is GW2 competition? Still doesn’t mean that the current state of the game is healthy.

Healthier than the rest, good enough for the company that makes it to greenlight another expansion less than 3 months after the first one launches….
Sure don’t open the expensive scotch, but quit digging graves.

Company decides to make money from content rather than giving it away for free shocker.

Rauderi.8706:

Topic: Why HoT is failing.

The “Topic” assumes that HoT is failing, shouldn’t it be “Is HoT failing?” because I don’t think we have enough data to conclude that hot is failing or not.

Sicarius.4639:

Raziel.4216:

Sird.4536:

Winning an award when no other game is good enough is nothing to celebrate. Where is GW2 competition? Still doesn’t mean that the current state of the game is healthy.

Healthier than the rest, good enough for the company that makes it to greenlight another expansion less than 3 months after the first one launches….
Sure don’t open the expensive scotch, but quit digging graves.

Company decides to make money from content rather than giving it away for free shocker.

Company would never greenlight another expansion if the first one failed.
Maybe… it didn’t fail? Shocker indeed
Oh dear god I hope that didn’t blow your mind.

Rauderi.8706:

Ayrilana.1396:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Ayrilana.1396:

Manasa Devi.7958:

And it also makes me wonder what makes them think opinions can be argued with. My perception of the luke-warm excrement that is HoT will not budge because of anything someone writes. ANet is the only party that can change it, by effecting change in HoT.

So if someone were to make a thread stating only that HoT was the greatest expansion ever made, nobody could argue against them? Since like you said, opinions cannot be argued with. Of course this is not true as people can very well dissent against someone’s opinions. Someone can post in that thread and state that they disagree which would be their own opinion.

There’s a difference between posting a counter opinion and throwing useless arguments at people to convince them they’re wrong or patronizing them.

There’s also a different between posting constructively versus not. There’s also a difference between posting to critique and posting to simply complain for the sake of complaining. What you consider to be useless arguments may not necessarily be so. I see so many people attack arguments by saying they’re “useless” or whatever but they never make the attempt to counter them constructively.

Source?

I’m seeing more arguing and less discussion on the topic.

Topic: Why HoT is failing.

Unless ANet releases some actual population/participation numbers, all we have to go by are somewhat unreliable metrics. That’d be the forums and reddit:

• More complaints about HoT’s core issues blocking gameplay/fun (Masteries, Adventures, meta-events)
• Guilds dying/rosters not logging on
• Critically imbalanced PvP, to the point where several people have tried complete rebuild documents

Unfortunately, I have to add my voice to the many who have cut back time or stopped altogether, gravely disappointed with the experience being offered. I want to play the game, but it seems the game doesn’t want me to play.

You forgot a few details:
We have no reliable data on guild activity, my guild is very active, a lot more since HoT launched, does that mean this is the best exp. ever? Anecdotal evidence is worthless, real data is unavailable, therefore we can’t conclude anything, we just have to wait.
Complaints have been around since day 1, hell the game’s been dieing since ascended launched more than 3 years ago, yet here we are, forum complaints are not a valid source of info. Heck even BnS forums have “game’s dead” topics already, and that game just launched on this side, SWTOR was “dead” 2 weeks after launch, FFXIV was doomed to fail less than a month after launch, once again this is not a reliable source.
The only valid info – not anecdotal – available is that Anet plans to make another expansion, now think about it a bit, would ANY company out there make a second expansion if the first one failed? probably not, even so we can’t draw any final conclusions based on that.
No valid info =/= let’s use forums as evidence!

We should get some evidence next week from NCSoft’s earnings report. I would suggest people read the report itself first before reading interpretations of it from gaming websites.

Randulf.7614:

What is your definition or criteria for “failure”?

“I don’t like it, therefore it failed.”

Raziel.4216:

The only valid info – not anecdotal – available is that Anet plans to make another expansion, now think about it a bit, would ANY company out there make a second expansion if the first one failed? probably not, even so we can’t draw any final conclusions based on that.

That’s not really “valid” either, to be honest. That’s intent.
Intent is a good sign that maybe they’re confident in a 2-5 year plan. I want them to be right. I want them to laser focus on making things good and fine-tuning the game so it returns to awesome. Even the rumor of changes for the spring patch have me hopeful.

Thing is, a rumor of a plan of something years in the making doesn’t mean squat about HoT’s success or failure now. After the whole “manifesto” trope that went on for years after release, anything ANet says is as anecdotal as the next “i leave 4evr byebye” thread. Plans change.

HoT had a lot of missteps, but I think GW2 can recover. It’ll take time and effort. There will be research and surveys and CDIs (hopefully). Because metrics only tell you what happened. Not why.

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t get your point at all. It’s easy, bite-sized content. Agreed, and that only goes to the point I’m making how Core is just a pathetically easy content, packaged in a nice looking visual … which is REALLY cool if you just like to walk around and look at stuff, like a museum.

which is how open world is always in MMOs? Accessible to all?
That being said, I already said that HoT is not hard, just tedius.

Um, no it’s not how OW is always in MMO’s, I’ve played plenty of MMO’s where the OW content is significantly harder than playing Core GW2 … you know, where you can actually die.

Manasa Devi.7958:

I find it quite amusing how people are throwing the original GW2 under the bus in a futile attempt to assault people’s opinions on HoT. It makes me wonder why they even played “poor”, “easy”, “stale” GW2 at all.

That’s funny … for someone complaining about ‘gates’ like mushrooms in HoT, I was wondering in the same way how you managed to get past the first map without ragequiting because of the ‘gate’ of ‘doing stuff’. In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.

Rauderi.8706:

Raziel.4216:

The only valid info – not anecdotal – available is that Anet plans to make another expansion, now think about it a bit, would ANY company out there make a second expansion if the first one failed? probably not, even so we can’t draw any final conclusions based on that.

That’s not really “valid” either, to be honest. That’s intent.
Intent is a good sign that maybe they’re confident in a 2-5 year plan. I want them to be right. I want them to laser focus on making things good and fine-tuning the game so it returns to awesome. Even the rumor of changes for the spring patch have me hopeful.

Thing is, a rumor of a plan of something years in the making doesn’t mean squat about HoT’s success or failure now. After the whole “manifesto” trope that went on for years after release, anything ANet says is as anecdotal as the next “i leave 4evr byebye” thread. Plans change.

HoT had a lot of missteps, but I think GW2 can recover. It’ll take time and effort. There will be research and surveys and CDIs (hopefully). Because metrics only tell you what happened. Not why.

A rumor? a statement from one of the devs is not a rumor.
Call it plan, intent, etc. doesn’t change the fact that no company will greenlight another expansion if the first one failed.

There are less people complaining now because we have an expansion. The forum was pretty bad a few month ago.

Obtena.7952:

In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.

HoT being what it is isn’t the answer to the original game being too easy.

HoT’s problems have nothing to do with its level of difficulty.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Obtena.7952:

In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.

HoT being what it is isn’t the answer to the original game being too easy.

HoT’s problems have nothing to do with its level of difficulty.

I think HoT is actually a really good answer to the game being too easy because it’s not easy. I can’t see why you think it isn’t, other than just being contrarian. The problems with HoT might not have anything to do with it’s difficulty, but it has much to do with what makes it successful.

Obtena.7952:

Um, no it’s not how OW is always in MMO’s, I’ve played plenty of MMO’s where the OW content is significantly harder than playing Core GW2 … you know, where you can actually die.

examples that weren’t made 10 years ago or more?

WoW, FFXIV, Tera, BnS, pretty much ANY even remotely popular MMO has easy open world PVE. Because that’s where people level and solo quest.
That doesn’t mean that you can’t include hard PVE experiences into open world. Tera had BAMs for example. However you were able to just skip them entirely if you didn’t want that challenge.

What GW2 did was literally turn the health and damage up on EVERY mob in HoT. Meaning every HoT mob is half a BAM with 10X the health. Making them not fun. Because it’s literally every mob, HoT is just not a pleasant open world PVE experience for an MMO.

Obtena.7952:

In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.

where was the non stop yelling about how open world PVE should be upped in general? As I’m very curious for examples. When people ask for difficulty they tend to mean instances like dungeons and raids. Challenging solo instances were very welcome during season 1 and 2 of living story. More challenging open world bosses received a more mixed response (look at how people viewed redone Tequatl). Very challenging open world as a whole tends to mostly get a negative response.

Raziel.4216:

A rumor? a statement from one of the devs is not a rumor.
Call it plan, intent, etc. doesn’t change the fact that no company will greenlight another expansion if the first one failed.

unless they really need money. Then expansions do get greenlit one after another. Just look at WoW, whenever an expansion pack fails miserably and overall is regarded as not good, Blizzard announces that the next one is a mere year away, instead of fixing the mess that they’ve caused.
It wouldn’t surprise me, if instead of rebuilding HoT Anet is preparing another expansion in a year or so.

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

Um, no it’s not how OW is always in MMO’s, I’ve played plenty of MMO’s where the OW content is significantly harder than playing Core GW2 … you know, where you can actually die.

examples that weren’t made 10 years ago or more?

WoW, FFXIV, Tera, BnS, pretty much ANY even remotely popular MMO has easy open world PVE. Because that’s where people level and solo quest.
That doesn’t mean that you can’t include hard PVE experiences into open world. Tera had BAMs for example. However you were able to just skip them entirely if you didn’t want that challenge.

What GW2 did was literally turn the health and damage up on EVERY mob in HoT. Meaning every HoT mob is half a BAM with 10X the health. Making them not fun. Because it’s literally every mob, HoT is just not a pleasant open world PVE experience for an MMO.

Obtena.7952:

In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.

where was the non stop yelling about how open world PVE should be upped in general? As I’m very curious for examples. When people ask for difficulty they tend to mean instances like dungeons and raids. Challenging solo instances were very welcome during season 1 and 2 of living story. More challenging open world bosses received a more mixed response (look at how people viewed redone Tequatl). Very challenging open world as a whole tends to mostly get a negative response.

When the betas came out the response to the harder mobs was overwhelmingly positive. Me and a couple others argued that they were too hard for general players but everyone else loved them.

Mob difficulty feedback

Mirta.5029:

Raziel.4216:

A rumor? a statement from one of the devs is not a rumor.
Call it plan, intent, etc. doesn’t change the fact that no company will greenlight another expansion if the first one failed.

unless they really need money. Then expansions do get greenlit one after another. Just look at WoW, whenever an expansion pack fails miserably and overall is regarded as not good, Blizzard announces that the next one is a mere year away, instead of fixing the mess that they’ve caused.
It wouldn’t surprise me, if instead of rebuilding HoT Anet is preparing another expansion in a year or so.

Blizzard has many succesful products that could make up for lost investment, Anet doesn’t and no publisher is interested in digging their own grave.

This doesn’t happen:
Suits: hey guys, how did HoT do?
Devs: HoT failed horribly.
Suits: ok make GW2: Heart of Frost now.

2 years later
Suits: how did we do with HoF?
Devs: even worse than HoT, we’re losing so much money!
Suits: ok now’s the time for Heart of Lava

A product needs the approval of the higher ups, these people look at numbers and if it’s not succesful then there’s no point in making another failure.
Wanna see what happens when a product fails? go look at Carbine: people drop out, devs lose their jobs and move on.

While no one has any numbers, ANet has given us a hint that they’re satisfied with the difficulty in the new maps.

Guild chat livestream notes
Is it hard to design monsters to react to different situations?
For standard mobs we try not make them too hard. We made the monsters harder in HoT and I think that is at a good point right now.

So far then they’ve said the mobs are at the right difficulty but (in a different post) said the rewards and how they are earned need work. From that it’s possible to infer they are reasonably happy with the HoT sales and the numbers of people playing in the new areas and it only needs some minor work to make it better.

Mirta.5029:

WoW, FFXIV, Tera, BnS, pretty much ANY even remotely popular MMO has easy open world PVE. Because that’s where people level and solo quest.

In WoW players from multiple servers can play together in the open world. Is WoW dying? No it’s not, it’s just that WoW players are hidden inside instances. Have you ever thought that those games you mentioned have easy open world because they are full of instances and their open world is there only for leveling purposes? Have you ever thought that the open world in those games is considered the most boring experience ever and players try to skip it with insta-max-level items in order to do the good stuff (namely the instances).

Do you really want Guild Wars 2 to become a game about instances, both easy and hard, and make the open world a barren wasteland that players visit for leveling and not for anything else like in so many other MMORPGs? Or you want the game to stay as it is, focused primarily in the open world that everyone can enjoy without forced grouping? Without the need for master preparation for builds and roles or to have specific numbers to succeed? If this is to happen though the game must offer a higher difficulty setting so it makes sense for players to group up and play in the open world together, otherwise it becomes an open world like in those other games, a boring wasteland that everyone wants to skip as fast as possible.

Mirta.5029:

What GW2 did was literally turn the health and damage up on EVERY mob in HoT. Meaning every HoT mob is half a BAM with 10X the health. Making them not fun. Because it’s literally every mob, HoT is just not a pleasant open world PVE experience for an MMO.

Got to call blatant exaggeration on this. I’m not a HoT enthusiast, but let’s be realistic.

• Other than (maybe) L83 or 84 Vets in a scaled-up event, 10X health is massively overstated. There are some mobs with more health (or toughness) than their tier. I believe the Vet Mushroom Defender is harder to kill than most core vets, but not worse than an L81 Vet Risen Abom). I certainly have not seen any Hot mobs while solo roaming that had anything approaching 3x health for their tier, never mind 10.
• I’ve soloed BAM’s in Tera. I’d say Champions in HoT are tougher than a lot of the BAM’s I fought. No way that any normal HoT mob is half a BAM, though. HoT mobs attack faster (by and large). Some of the vets hit comparably. That’s about it.
• Every single mob? Raptors (the non-pocket ones) and boars are no different than core. Tigers hit like they’ve got cotton batting on their claws. Other than (maybe) Kings and Defenders, the mushrooms aren’t any harder than krait. Mordrem are no worse than the Mordrem in SW, unless you get swarmed — which is a part of HoT that happens less in core.

Now, I’m not going to dispute the “not fun” part. That’s your call.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Mirta.5029:

What GW2 did was literally turn the health and damage up on EVERY mob in HoT. Meaning every HoT mob is half a BAM with 10X the health. Making them not fun. Because it’s literally every mob, HoT is just not a pleasant open world PVE experience for an MMO.

Got to call blatant exaggeration on this. I’m not a HoT enthusiast, but let’s be realistic.

People who didn’t play HoT at all but just read comments from others and for some reason believe are easy to spot.

Some very simple data I gathered using a Thief. A simple rotation Steal→CnD→Backstab to see how many mobs survive it.

Jungle Boar (core Tyria mob): Survived, required 1 auto attack chain to kill
Pocket Raptor: Dead just with CnD
Arrowhead Hatchling: Survived, required 2 full auto attack chains after combo
Shadowleaper: Survived, but required just a single hit to kill (95% hp gone)
Mordrem Sniper: Dead
Mordrem Punisher: Survived, required a single hit
Mordrem Sharpshooter: Dead
Mushroom Bomber: Dead
Mushroom Soldier: Dead
Mushroom Spike Thrower: Dead
Bristleback Hatchling: Survived, required 1 full auto chain to kill
Smokescale: Dead

So from my data so far, most HoT mobs die with just my combo, some need 1 auto attack chain to die. Btw my Steal causes Daze meaning all HoT mobs died before the Daze duration was over (except for those with breakbars). They never attacked back even once. Where are these mobs that are EVERYWHERE and have 10X Hit points?

Obtena.7952:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Obtena.7952:

In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.

HoT being what it is isn’t the answer to the original game being too easy.

HoT’s problems have nothing to do with its level of difficulty.

I think HoT is actually a really good answer to the game being too easy because it’s not easy. I can’t see why you think it isn’t, other than just being contrarian. The problems with HoT might not have anything to do with it’s difficulty, but it has much to do with what makes it successful.

It is easy. The maps are a tiny bit harder to traverse but once you know the layout and where the tough monsters spawn, it’s just as easy to get around as any Tyrian map. Even Tangled Depths is hardly a challenge once you know your way around. My 2nd character completed that map in about 3 hours. The only reason people complain about the difficulty is because some hero challenges are designed for multiple players and they often have no other players around because of the kitten server structure and taxi nonsense.

The “main events” are just as zergy and unchallenging as any boss in Tyria, and will easily be completed even without everyone pulling their weight. That Gerent thing? First you repeat a simple action a lot of times, then you attack a boss that doesn’t really do much for a few minutes. It’s exactly the kind of content people deride as “11111 for loot” as we’ve ever had.

HoT is only hard for people deluding themselves into thinking it’s hard. The more difficult creatures? What of them? Can’t deal with it, walk around it just like you walked around champions you couldn’t be bothered to deal with in the old Tyria. It’s not like they’re worth killing anyway. They’re just time wasters, like so much in HoT is just there to eat time.

Manasa Devi.7958:

It is easy.

Many players disagree with you and complain that HoT mobs have way too much HP (lol) or are too hard to kill and need to be nerfed.

the Devs? I wouldn’t imagine so.

I think the problem is there are nothing else in the expansion besides 4 new zones.

Before people can choose to do easy or hard content.

But the expansion is just 4 zones, some find it too difficult, some find it too easy.

the average AAA mmo expansion is perhaps 3-5 zones, and 99% of that is not repeatable content. These games offer a couple new instances as repeatable content, GW2 offers repeatable zones.

I don’t felt it’s difficult. But the open world zone are more difficult than other mmorpg. So other people do have a point.

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

Um, no it’s not how OW is always in MMO’s, I’ve played plenty of MMO’s where the OW content is significantly harder than playing Core GW2 … you know, where you can actually die.

examples that weren’t made 10 years ago or more?

Right, just because my experiences span more than 10 years, they must be irrelevant. >< I get there is a drive for braindead easy OW PVE for newer markets … that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a demand that ANet can try to fill for not-braindead OW PVE as well.

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.

where was the non stop yelling about how open world PVE should be upped in general? As I’m very curious for examples. When people ask for difficulty they tend to mean instances like dungeons and raids. Challenging solo instances were very welcome during season 1 and 2 of living story. More challenging open world bosses received a more mixed response (look at how people viewed redone Tequatl). Very challenging open world as a whole tends to mostly get a negative response.

RIght … we don’t see hordes of people QQing about PVE being too easy on the forums, so it must not be a thing … Gotcha.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Obtena.7952:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Obtena.7952:

In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.

HoT being what it is isn’t the answer to the original game being too easy.

HoT’s problems have nothing to do with its level of difficulty.

I think HoT is actually a really good answer to the game being too easy because it’s not easy. I can’t see why you think it isn’t, other than just being contrarian. The problems with HoT might not have anything to do with it’s difficulty, but it has much to do with what makes it successful.

It is easy.

Good thing you don’t speak for everyone and in absolutes, eotherwise I would have to write a wall of text arguing for no reason with you.

Raziel.4216:

Blizzard has many succesful products that could make up for lost investment, Anet doesn’t and no publisher is interested in digging their own grave.

This doesn’t happen

having in mind that GW2 was one of the most popular recent MMOs, any publisher would be 100% interested in salvaging it. Heck even games that are in the grave, always try to dig themselves out (look at Wildstar), it’s pretty much losing money, but NcSoft is being very lenient on it and giving it as much chances as possible, simply because of the massive 10 year investment.

If an expansion pack didn’t work, the cheapest approach is actually to IMMEDIATELY start working on the next one and make sure that it doesn’t resemble the previous one at all.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

When the betas came out the response to the harder mobs was overwhelmingly positive. Me and a couple others argued that they were too hard for general players but everyone else loved them.

Mob difficulty feedback

it doesn’t help that the betas ran with masteries unlocked, which is why the difficulty is so high to begin with and why masteries are necessary in Spvp. They’re simply much better than most base classes. :/

maddoctor.2738:

Do you really want Guild Wars 2 to become a game about instances, both easy and hard, and make the open world a barren wasteland that players visit for leveling and not for anything else like in so many other MMORPGs? Or you want the game to stay as it is, focused primarily in the open world that everyone can enjoy without forced grouping?

YES, I DO want my instances because that is what I ENJOYED IN GW2 VANILLA. YES, I want my open world to be casual, because that’s WHAT I ENJOYED IN MY GW2 VANILLA.

And it doesn’t make a world a barren wasteland. Look at FFXIV where people get funnelled back into the open world to do hunts, to do their level 50 relics, to do their level 60 relics… Look at the old GW2 vanilla where people got funnelled back into the open world to do world bosses, achievements, collections.

That’s EXACTLY the problem. Not only is HoT unlike everything that’s popular on the market, but it’s also unlike GW2 vanilla. Meaning those of us that liked vanilla are no longer here.

Obtena.7952:

Right, just because my experiences span more than 10 years, they must be irrelevant. >< I get there is a drive for braindead easy OW PVE for newer markets … that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a demand that ANet can try to fill for not-braindead OW PVE as well.

the reason why I ask this question for comparrison to new successful games, is because pretty much no MMO that was made 10+ years ago is still holding in popularity and none of them would be popular if they released today because the market has changed. Look at Wildstar trying to revive the 2004 WoW formula. As a F2P it’s BARELY alive and unclear for how long.

Obtena.7952:

RIght … we don’t see hordes of people QQing about PVE being too easy on the forums, so it must not be a thing … Gotcha.

for OW PVE I didn’t see people QQing about it being too easy. That’s why if I’m wrong I’m asking you for examples.

Ayrilana.1396:

We should get some evidence next week from NCSoft’s earnings report. I would suggest people read the report itself first before reading interpretations of it from gaming websites.

Expect them to be very high. Recall that the expansion likely sold very well due to the sheer number of complaints about it. People complaining implies they purchased it and were upset with the quality of the content, but dollar signs are dollar signs and it doesn’t matter.

The next earnings report will be the interesting one, seeing as it better-depicts how players responded to the content after a few months post-release, and if ANet has subsequently lost paying customers as a consequence for content people didn’t enjoy.

The planning for the next expansion could either be the product of reaction to success or the reaction to critical failure in attempts to release new content in a better-perceived state than the first. Not uncommon for both extremely successful companies and ones which saw customer-reviewed product flops follow either strategy.

Windows 8 as an example. MS readily and quickly moved to a new OS and is dropping support for 8/8.1 faster than any other OS in their history. Win8 sold appropriately well-enough (the company’s other investments were really the flops, also caused by the flop that was attempting to integrate everything with win8). When staring at product failure but not commercial failure, it is best to try and move on as fast as possible before your customers jump ship and redeem yourself. I chose the Windows 8 example because Windows 10 is a fantastic OS and Microsoft has largely redeemed themselves with it. Had they not done so, the company would have likely started seeing downward trends a lot faster than expected. ANet’s in a much more competitive environment with much less financial support. The road to redemption there needs to come much faster and be much better to stay relevant into the future for those still eyeing the game.

DeceiverX.8361:

The next earnings report will be the interesting one, seeing as it better-depicts how players responded to the content after a few months post-release, and if ANet has subsequently lost paying customers as a consequence for content people didn’t enjoy.

But there is no way of telling. It’ll mostly only show gem store sells past last quarter.

In fact it’ll probably be decent just because Anet decide to sell shared inventory slot that I guess most people bought it.

Mirta.5029:

Raziel.4216:

Blizzard has many succesful products that could make up for lost investment, Anet doesn’t and no publisher is interested in digging their own grave.

This doesn’t happen

having in mind that GW2 was one of the most popular recent MMOs, any publisher would be 100% interested in salvaging it. Heck even games that are in the grave, always try to dig themselves out (look at Wildstar), it’s pretty much losing money, but NcSoft is being very lenient on it and giving it as much chances as possible, simply because of the massive 10 year investment.

If an expansion pack didn’t work, the cheapest approach is actually to IMMEDIATELY start working on the next one and make sure that it doesn’t resemble the previous one at all.

In what world? If GW2’s expansion flops a publisher would require some changes before throwing their money at a product that just lost money, ncsoft wouldn’t back off and let’em retain so much freedom.
Again, what happens when a game fails? look at Carbine.
Instead we have Anet hiring people and working on another release without a lot of intervention from the publisher, what does that tell us? the numbers are good enough.
Good enough =/= failed expansion.

Raziel.4216:

In what world? If GW2’s expansion flops a publisher would require some changes before throwing their money at a product that just lost money, ncsoft wouldn’t back off and let’em retain so much freedom.
Again, what happens when a game fails? look at Carbine.
Instead we have Anet hiring people and working on another release without a lot of intervention from the publisher, what does that tell us? the numbers are good enough.
Good enough =/= failed expansion.

yes. Changes in the next expansion. Anet is a powerhouse. You seem to be under the illusion that somehow its tiny and haven’t made massive amounts of profit. Think of it this way – around living story season 1 they started hiring to a point that now they’ve kept 300+ employees for 2+ years. Do you really think that they would have NO money to recover from a flop?

As for look at Carbine part, Anet is so desperate to salvage it, that even though it flopped 3 months in, it’s going for over a year now, with massive overhaul for F2P and another massive overhaul incoming for steam release. And this game is not making money. Do you REALLY think that GW2 would just be left to sink when they’re giving so many chances to something that completely flopped?

Mirta.5029:

Raziel.4216:

In what world? If GW2’s expansion flops a publisher would require some changes before throwing their money at a product that just lost money, ncsoft wouldn’t back off and let’em retain so much freedom.
Again, what happens when a game fails? look at Carbine.
Instead we have Anet hiring people and working on another release without a lot of intervention from the publisher, what does that tell us? the numbers are good enough.
Good enough =/= failed expansion.

yes. Changes in the next expansion. Anet is a powerhouse. You seem to be under the illusion that somehow its tiny and haven’t made massive amounts of profit. Think of it this way – around living story season 1 they started hiring to a point that now they’ve kept 300+ employees for 2+ years. Do you really think that they would have NO money to recover from a flop?

They can recover from a flop, but not by digging a deeper grave if their first expansion failed horribly.
Arenanet answers to it’s publisher, ncsoft answers to stockholders, no investor would want their money going to a product that failed horribly.
Whatever happens it looks like Anet can’t get it right.
New expansion = first one failed, maybe they’ll make up for it in the second one.
Just like before this infographic http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/arenanet-announces-7-million-guild-wars-2-accounts-launches-new-expansion-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-300165251.html doomsayers claimed the game was dead.
It looks like your mind is already made up, whatever happens HoT failed even if it goes agaisnt the most basic knowledge on the topic of investors and publishers.

Mirta.5029:

As for look at Carbine part, Anet is so desperate to salvage it, that even though it flopped 3 months in, it’s going for over a year now, with massive overhaul for F2P and another massive overhaul incoming for steam release. And this game is not making money. Do you REALLY think that GW2 would just be left to sink when they’re giving so many chances to something that completely flopped?

So desperate to salvage their flop? Source?
Let me guess, is it a forum that represents less than 10% of the playerbase?
Or is it your guildmates?
Everyone you know?
Everyone you and your guildmates know?

I probably got one of those right.

Mirta.5029:

Raziel.4216:

In what world? If GW2’s expansion flops a publisher would require some changes before throwing their money at a product that just lost money, ncsoft wouldn’t back off and let’em retain so much freedom.
Again, what happens when a game fails? look at Carbine.
Instead we have Anet hiring people and working on another release without a lot of intervention from the publisher, what does that tell us? the numbers are good enough.
Good enough =/= failed expansion.

yes. Changes in the next expansion. Anet is a powerhouse. You seem to be under the illusion that somehow its tiny and haven’t made massive amounts of profit. Think of it this way – around living story season 1 they started hiring to a point that now they’ve kept 300+ employees for 2+ years. Do you really think that they would have NO money to recover from a flop?

As for look at Carbine part, Anet is so desperate to salvage it, that even though it flopped 3 months in, it’s going for over a year now, with massive overhaul for F2P and another massive overhaul incoming for steam release. And this game is not making money. Do you REALLY think that GW2 would just be left to sink when they’re giving so many chances to something that completely flopped?

ok, so by your standard the expansion is bad. this and next financial report would be interesting if there is any sign showing.

Raziel.4216:

So desperate to salvage their flop? Source?
Let me guess, is it a forum that represents less than 10% of the playerbase?
Or is it your guildmates?
Everyone you know?
Everyone you and your guildmates know?

I probably got one of those right.

my argument wasn’t that it necessarily flopped, my argument was that making next expansion /= financial success on the first one.

Mirta.5029:

my argument wasn’t that it necessarily flopped, my argument was that making next expansion /= financial success on the first one.

Mirta.5029:

As for look at Carbine part, Anet is so desperate to salvage it, that even though it flopped 3 months in, it’s going for over a year now, with massive overhaul for F2P and another massive overhaul incoming for steam release. And this game is not making money. Do you REALLY think that GW2 would just be left to sink when they’re giving so many chances to something that completely flopped?

LOL what? nice backpadeling there, but it’s a bit too late you’re comparing this exp. to a game that completely flopped.
Still waiting on that source, should I give you more options?

I never said it was a success, I said it was good enough for their standards and didn’t flop.

In all fairness, a 10 page post, where a few people don’t like the expansion don’t mean it flop.

Having complaint is natural. It’s people’s personal opinion.

laokoko.7403:

DeceiverX.8361:

The next earnings report will be the interesting one, seeing as it better-depicts how players responded to the content after a few months post-release, and if ANet has subsequently lost paying customers as a consequence for content people didn’t enjoy.

But there is no way of telling. It’ll mostly only show gem store sells past last quarter.

In fact it’ll probably be decent just because Anet decide to sell shared inventory slot that I guess most people bought it.

To be totally honest with you, gem store sales are really the only things that matter on the basis that it’s indicative of general well-being of the game as typically people buy things worth paying for, and stop paying for them when they become not worthwhile.

We can also look at data compared to Q4 2014 and potentially Q1 2015 (before HoT was announced) and Q1 2016 and the trends in between these two areas (during HoT hype and immediate release) and what is quite likely devise whether or not the game has seen more or less commercial success based on industry-reported churn rates.

Raziel.4216:

LOL what? nice backpadeling there, but it’s a bit too late you’re comparing this exp. to a game that completely flopped.
Still waiting on that source, should I give you more options?

I never said it was a success, I said it was good enough for their standards and didn’t flop.

Wildstar flopped. Or are you arguing against that?
The next part of the comment was started with “EVEN IF”, as in “do you not think that Ncsoft would try and salvage GW2 if it started going downhill?”, supported by “Wildstar totally flopped and is LOSING MONEY, but they’re keeping it alive”. There’s literally no backpedal there.

Original statement from me was that another expansion would be made regardless this one is a success or a flop.

Mirta.5029:

Raziel.4216:

LOL what? nice backpadeling there, but it’s a bit too late you’re comparing this exp. to a game that completely flopped.
Still waiting on that source, should I give you more options?

I never said it was a success, I said it was good enough for their standards and didn’t flop.

Wildstar flopped. Or are you arguing against that?
The next part of the comment was started with “EVEN IF”, as in “do you not think that Ncsoft would try and salvage GW2 if it started going downhill?”, supported by “Wildstar totally flopped and is LOSING MONEY, but they’re keeping it alive”. There’s literally no backpedal there.

Original statement from me was that another expansion would be made regardless this one is a success or a flop.

“Anet is so desperate to salvage it” had no if or any conditioner before it.
Original statement from me was that it didn’t flop and (again, for the 4th time?) no publisher is dumb enough to re-invest money on a failed product. There’re plenty of games available to invest on, no need to sink your money on the ones that fail.
But you’ve made your mind, nothing can prove that HoT did well enough for’em. Cute

Raziel.4216:

no publisher is dumb enough to re-invest money on a failed product. There’re plenty of games available to invest on, no need to sink your money on the ones that fail.

which is where my example comes in. WILDSTAR. No matter than it was failing from month 3, for 2 years now, Ncsoft KEEP ON INVESTING. They do sink money, because projects take a long time to make and cost a lot when they fail, meaning it’s in their best interest to salvage.

Raziel.4216:

But you’ve made your mind, nothing can prove that HoT did well enough for’em. Cute

2015 Q4 report, then 2016Q1 will show at least an estimation of a) how many bought the expansion b) what is the player retention in Q1.

Currently nobody can prove that it did good or bad. There’s only user experience to judge from.

Mirta.5029:

Currently nobody can prove that it did good or bad. There’s only user experience to judge from.

That’s the whole point made in the previous page, with the extra that another expansion is a good sign not a sign of decay or failure or more fire for the doomsayers.
So why are you arguing with me again?

Mirta.5029:

As for look at Carbine part, Anet is so desperate to salvage it, that even though it flopped 3 months in, it’s going for over a year now, with massive overhaul for F2P and another massive overhaul incoming for steam release. And this game is not making money. Do you REALLY think that GW2 would just be left to sink when they’re giving so many chances to something that completely flopped?

When you say, “Anet is so desperate to salvage it,” did you mean, “NCSoft is so desperate to salvage it,” in reference to Wildstar? I ask because Anet has essentially nothing to do with Carbine.

Ashen.2907:

When you say, “Anet is so desperate to salvage it,” did you mean, “NCSoft is so desperate to salvage it,” in reference to Wildstar? I ask because Anet has essentially nothing to do with Carbine.

yup, wrong word used. It’s 4 AM and I should be asleep, sorry

Mirta.5029:

Raziel.4216:

A rumor? a statement from one of the devs is not a rumor.
Call it plan, intent, etc. doesn’t change the fact that no company will greenlight another expansion if the first one failed.

unless they really need money. Then expansions do get greenlit one after another. Just look at WoW, whenever an expansion pack fails miserably and overall is regarded as not good, Blizzard announces that the next one is a mere year away, instead of fixing the mess that they’ve caused.
It wouldn’t surprise me, if instead of rebuilding HoT Anet is preparing another expansion in a year or so.

Yeah, WoW did shove Mists out fairly quickly after Cata. And Mists didn’t get much love until Draenor was released. And now Draenor’s getting shoved under the proverbial bus for Legion. It’s actually kind of painful to watch in slow motion. >.>

Which is why a lot of people were staunchly against the notion of releasing expansions for GW2.

In the modern gaming scene, these types of releases typically include low content quality and gimmicks with a pressure on monetizing annually by attracting new players rather than reducing churn rates through fresh and high-quality design since the gaming market has so many customers these days.