Guild Wars 2

thats not what i said at all, you just need to win eh.. You win.

mauried.5608:

Whats meant by underperforming?
MMOs dont have any rules which states how players have to play.
Who would decide that someone was underperforming, and on what basis.
I havnt got the foggiest idea what my DPS is, nor do I care, nor is it anyone elses business.

Ohoni.6057:

A DPS meter would help here a lot. See who is underperforming (remember that the required DPS isn’t that high), ask them if it’s the equipment, the build or the rotation and try to improve on that.

That’s just solving a symptom, not the problem. The problem is not that players are unaware of their own DPS, the problem is that they NEED a certain amount of DPS in order to pass the content. solve that and a DPS meter becomes irrelevant.

Wow not sure how to respond to that stuff.

The game I bought way back then had no raids. That was even one of its selling points. So if I buy a game that features no raids, then just because they put raids in later doesn’t mean that it’s something that I’m interested in and will try.

A lot of people bought this game because it was advertised as a casual, come and go game, play when you want. Those sort of people aren’t afraid of raids, merely disinterested. They may put in long hours, but that doesn’t mean they want to put those hours in raiding. Some have come here from other games and raided there. They’ve “been there and done that” and don’t feel the need now to do it again.

Tahlie.4259:

So, I played GW2 when it first came out, and had a lot of fun with it — at first. Fractals rolled around, and they were fun, but you can only do the same thing so many times before it gets boring. So, I quit at about the beginning of Living Story season 1.

Flash forward a few years, and here I started playing again ~3 weeks ago. When I heard about new fractals, a raid, and all kinds of challenging content, I just had to come back! So, now I have an 80 Engineer and Elementalist (both fully geared out), I’ve been raiding in MMOs for upwards of 12 years, and all that — yet, to date, I’ve not even set foot inside the raid.

I’ve been listing myself in LFG for a week and a half or so, I’ve been asking around in chat, and so on. But, there’s just no one pugging a raid, or filling a spot, or any of that. And no guilds are recruiting that actually go into the raid.

So, what exactly is the issue? Is the raid in GW2 just one of the hardest in the genre or something, or are people just being silly?

Raiding was the main reason I came back to the game. : / And it doesn’t seem like I’ll even set foot in the raid any time soon.

I was in the absolute same boat as you. I quit when LS1 came up because I was bored, played a bit later when ascended armor came out. I crafted 2 pieces, saw what a grind it was and how it had no purpose so I deemed it not worthy of my time and moved on other games. A month ago I decided I’ll give gw2 another shot and came back. Bought the expansion and BOOM , new maps, new stuff to gather in order to gear up, there were ascended weapons now. But most importantly, there was actually a purpose for them! RAIDS! Group content that wasn’t boring zerg group farming of events or champions, was challenging and I was incredibly interested how Anet handled the role issues that appeared in the other raiding games I played.

As a player ,I play games for mechanics. If I want to enjoy a good story I’ll read a book or watch a movie. As a “mechanics” player I enjoy gearing my character to the teeth,learning the ins and outs of its play style, synergies and I love perfecting my playing. I constantly look for builds, discuss with other people and try to improve. I like practicing rotations, so I can be as efficient as possible. Raids fit me perfectly. I familiarized myself with what my profession was supposed to do, what gear I should be using (metabattle is a wonderful resource) found a guild and jumped into raiding.

And I loved it. My former raiding experience, (albeit a lot of it) was mainly from WoW and Rift. Both games are ultimately the same in that regard. So the fresh new take on raiding from gw2 captivated me. I like how they handled “tanking” and “healing” ,I like that you cannot do gimmicky stuff to skip or ignore mechanics (like dungeons) and most of all I like that the weight of the encounter feels like it’s equally placed between all players.

I don’t know whether you play on EU or NA but both regions have a ton of guilds that teach raids and offer teaching runs. I myself recently joined a raiding hub (non rep guild full of players that want to raid) and there’s a raid group every day doing some boss. Do some search on reddit and google, you’re bound to find something.

As a player ,I play games for mechanics. If I want to enjoy a good story I’ll read a book or watch a movie. As a “mechanics” player I enjoy gearing my character to the teeth,learning the ins and outs of its play style, synergies and I love perfecting my playing. I constantly look for builds, discuss with other people and try to improve. I like practicing rotations, so I can be as efficient as possible. Raids fit me perfectly. I familiarized myself with what my profession was supposed to do, what gear I should be using (metabattle is a wonderful resource) found a guild and jumped into raiding.

And I loved it. My former raiding experience, (albeit a lot of it) was mainly from WoW and Rift. Both games are ultimately the same in that regard. So the fresh new take on raiding from gw2 captivated me. I like how they handled “tanking” and “healing” ,I like that you cannot do gimmicky stuff to skip or ignore mechanics (like dungeons) and most of all I like that the weight of the encounter feels like it’s equally placed between all players.

I don’t know whether you play on EU or NA but both regions have a ton of guilds that teach raids and offer teaching runs. I myself recently joined a raiding hub (non rep guild full of players that want to raid) and there’s a raid group every day doing some boss. Do some search on reddit and google, you’re bound to find something.

The thing that’s REALLY important to fix in your mind here, is that while you enjoy something, that doesn’t make it the “right” way to play the game, it doesn’t make other players “wrong” for not enjoying it how you do.

the problem with raiding is not a difficulty finding “teaching runs,” it’s a complete disinterest in engaging in “teaching runs.” It’s about wanting to not NEED a “teaching run.” How you felt about Ascended grinding, other players feel about “teaching raids,” they just want a challenge level where they can go in and apply basic gameplay skills to pass the encounter in the first few attempts, and anything more is grind.

People who enjoy raids really need this driven into their skull like an iron spike: Just because you enjoy raids, does not mean that everyone else is exactly like you, only not as “enlightened” as you are yet. Many people genuinely enjoy different gameplay experiences, and no amount of attempts at raiding will lead to them enjoying it the way you do, and that’s ok.

Ohoni.6057:

People who enjoy raids really need this driven into their skull like an iron spike: Just because you enjoy raids, does not mean that everyone else is exactly like you, only not as “enlightened” as you are yet. Many people genuinely enjoy different gameplay experiences, and no amount of attempts at raiding will lead to them enjoying it the way you do, and that’s ok.

So go do those things you enjoy and stop trying to damage raids.

Ricky.4706:

cranos.5913:

Sadly not much that you write makes sense. Everyone has the same right to post in the LFG to find like-minded people to clear content with.

sadly it sounds like you lack comprehension. Everyone has the right to play the game without having elitism imposed on them.

How exactly is anyone imposing elitism on you? rofl

Hypairion.9210:

When i read the majority of the posts, i wonder if you guys understand what anet said with “raid won’t be for everyone”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

read it pls everyone. raid are maybe not for you that’s all (people “hating” the meta, refusing the adapt, not wanting to put some effort (lol 6h in first boss that’s nothing, i’ve spent around 15h on it…)).
Pls guys, just accept that for once in gw2, there is something that, maybe, is not for you. And again, that’s not a problem. i hate wvw and pvp, so i just dont play it.

They did say that, but that doesn’t mean it’ll be accepted, considering the previous and current content drought.

GW2 was originally marketed to casual players, and a large part of their player base will therefore expect content they can experience without jumping through hoops. Jumping through hoops might be fun for you; it’s not to others. Should they then be excluded just to please a smaller subset of players (again, within the context of offering the remaining players next to nothing) with raids and its one difficulty setting that requires the sort of time and effort casual players do not have?

Raids could have been made more accessible without sacrificing a harder mode for those interested in that. Instead they chose to cater to a relatively small group only, while leaving the rest of the player base out in the cold twiddling their thumbs.

If you don’t have the time, skill, inclination or appropriate timezone you’re SOL.

cranos.5913:

Ricky.4706:

cranos.5913:

Sadly not much that you write makes sense. Everyone has the same right to post in the LFG to find like-minded people to clear content with.

sadly it sounds like you lack comprehension. Everyone has the right to play the game without having elitism imposed on them.

How exactly is anyone imposing elitism on you? rofl

easy, normal people don’t even bother with it because the people who are afraid to die are dominating lfg – elitists smell bad and they are always at the gate.

the more i think about this , the more i see that raids do belong behind guilds – people are complaining that guild missions are getting old / boring, and open world are complaining that lfg raids are basically making demands as all pugs should obey their rules as if they were in the same guild.

This really should be very obvious by now.

Lol !!! this is about picking up rando slackers through raids not regular content. Ity should be rather obvious that players are more willing to put up with not so good players when they are in the same guild then they would if it were some random player. I’m more than willing to sandbag it as you drag me through raids if you’d like to disagree. XD this si so much fun.

Vayne.8563:

Thank you for pointing that out for me

Np mate, Just dont ever forget I do talk for you.

Ricky.4706:

cranos.5913:

Ricky.4706:

cranos.5913:

Sadly not much that you write makes sense. Everyone has the same right to post in the LFG to find like-minded people to clear content with.

sadly it sounds like you lack comprehension. Everyone has the right to play the game without having elitism imposed on them.

How exactly is anyone imposing elitism on you? rofl

easy, normal people don’t even bother with it because the people who are afraid to die are dominating lfg – elitists smell bad and they are always at the gate.

? Than just make your own lfg? you have every right and ability to do that…..

i don’t care for raids at all, i don’t want to go anywhere that requires pre-set teams, I’ve said this over and over again, it breeds elitists…… I’m a roamer I enjoy open world…Hard content doesn’t bother me, closed (minded ) groups do.

Raids belong behind guilds, not in public….It’s bad pr.

I still speak up on raids all the same because ascended pvp content is gated behind it. In other words, this is a mess…..and at this point, I’d have to point back at anet for forcing this issue. Elitists and casuals don’t play well together, why is anet leaving them public and gating yassith’s and other trinkets behind it ?! is this some effort from someone that wants to watch us argue ?

the game itself is fine, the rules are causing pandemonium.

You can’t tell me that people who have so many many years experience in making games, had no idea that mixing casuals and elitists is bad…..

elitism in itself isn’t bad – it’s what the olympics is based on…only the elite win those medals…..but sending them to local softball game to call everyone a scrub and insult them isn’t right either. “I’d never put a pitcher like you in my team! Ugh!” – if that happened in real life, not only would local parks stop having softball games, but people would start to hate and protest the olympics too.

you can learn a lot about a dungeon master if you study his rules carefully.

So go do those things you enjoy and stop trying to damage raids.

Again, not trying to damage raids. You can disagree with what I am trying to do, but at least be honest about it.

@ OP. Its not so much that people are afraid of raids. But that raids only cater to a few playstyles due to the perceptions of the players running them.

In other games as people are leveling up and doing dungeons/small scale group content or even just questing they are learning the playstyle for the roll their class is designed to fill. And its easier to do that because they have the trinity system. Meaning that the playstyle they develop as they level will ALWAYS be on the lines of tank/healer/dps. This funnels players into specific methods of play. So the transition from say solo or small grp fighting to raid combat is pretty smooth. You do the same thing you did in the 5 man inside the 25 man. Only better.

GW2 is a bit different. The playstyle you develop while your leveling may have nothing to do with the role you have selected.

For example I play mostly TPvP. The playstyle I have developed has been with that in mind.

When I played a Hunter in wow I knew I was always a damage oriented player. No matter what skill or trait setup I prioritized. So what mattered for me was “make the damage work”

In GW2 its not that clear. Damage/Control/Support are all mixed together in one build. I have to fulfill multiple rolls to be truly efficient. And the skills I used and practiced with for years has been with that mindset.

Naturally this effected my playstyle in the rest of the game. I had a skill set that worked well. I knew how to use it in each situation. And I could use it effectively.

The issue is with PvE is the “DPS” is king mentality. Before anyone chomps at me I am not talking about the bezerker mentality. But instead the process of “Everything is for the goal of killing the boss faster”

Due to the fluidity of classes. This means that each players playstyle when they enter the raid HAS to be made with that in mind. You heal for the sake of damage. You control for the sake of damage. You tank for the sake of damage.

In WoW you tank for the sake of survival for other players. Not DIRECTLY so that they can do more damage. Its possible in gw2 to survive boss fights without anyone holding agro. In other games its required for survival. The same is true for healers. You bring a healer in gw2 if it will help you eek out more damage. Not because its actually necessary for the sake of survival. Its a subtle difference. But it does effect how you play. And how what your playing FEELS.

And yet many players as they level develop playstyles with completely different goals. Due to my fascination with PvP. My skillset was developed towards Personnel sustain, Short Term CC, and Burst Dmg. The concept of long term damage was foreign to me.

What this ultimately means is that the playstyle and skillset I have learned and mastered for the last few years means absolutely nothing in raids. Infact it would be viewed negatively if I attempted to bring it into raids at all. It was one of the most disappointing feelings for me when Anet said they wanted to open up more roles but ultimately I realized that there still wasn’t a roll that fit my goal and gameplay style.

It means that in order for me to be an effective raider. Or in many cases in order for me to even be allowed INSIDE a raid. I would have to sacrifice not only my playstyle but the skillset I have developed up to this point. As the majority of what I have learned is undesirable in a raid environment. The tools I have learned to use and mastered have no significant impact.

So for me atleast. Its not out of fear that I avoid raids. But more out of disappointment. As it will be very difficult for me to enjoy the playstyle that raiding in its current form would impose upon me. As I have developed my gameplay in a different direction.

Edit: Had a thought while rereading this. In older raids fights (in other games) there were often mechanics that had to be dealt with by one or two players. Meaning they had to separate from the rest of their team for periods of time in order to act on their own devices. This usually was fulfilled by classes that were capable of a few key things Self Healing/Self Buffing/And high amounts of damage over a short time. In other words the classes and builds that fulfilled this type of roll would be very close to what guild wars 2 currently has as PvP builds. I wonder if we could implement such rolls in GW2s raids in the future. A place where a stand alone player can have meaning. It would likely make the transition easier atleast for PvPers to get into raiding.

Ohoni.6057:

As a player ,I play games for mechanics. If I want to enjoy a good story I’ll read a book or watch a movie. As a “mechanics” player I enjoy gearing my character to the teeth,learning the ins and outs of its play style, synergies and I love perfecting my playing. I constantly look for builds, discuss with other people and try to improve. I like practicing rotations, so I can be as efficient as possible. Raids fit me perfectly. I familiarized myself with what my profession was supposed to do, what gear I should be using (metabattle is a wonderful resource) found a guild and jumped into raiding.

And I loved it. My former raiding experience, (albeit a lot of it) was mainly from WoW and Rift. Both games are ultimately the same in that regard. So the fresh new take on raiding from gw2 captivated me. I like how they handled “tanking” and “healing” ,I like that you cannot do gimmicky stuff to skip or ignore mechanics (like dungeons) and most of all I like that the weight of the encounter feels like it’s equally placed between all players.

I don’t know whether you play on EU or NA but both regions have a ton of guilds that teach raids and offer teaching runs. I myself recently joined a raiding hub (non rep guild full of players that want to raid) and there’s a raid group every day doing some boss. Do some search on reddit and google, you’re bound to find something.

The thing that’s REALLY important to fix in your mind here, is that while you enjoy something, that doesn’t make it the “right” way to play the game, it doesn’t make other players “wrong” for not enjoying it how you do.

the problem with raiding is not a difficulty finding “teaching runs,” it’s a complete disinterest in engaging in “teaching runs.” It’s about wanting to not NEED a “teaching run.” How you felt about Ascended grinding, other players feel about “teaching raids,” they just want a challenge level where they can go in and apply basic gameplay skills to pass the encounter in the first few attempts, and anything more is grind.

People who enjoy raids really need this driven into their skull like an iron spike: Just because you enjoy raids, does not mean that everyone else is exactly like you, only not as “enlightened” as you are yet. Many people genuinely enjoy different gameplay experiences, and no amount of attempts at raiding will lead to them enjoying it the way you do, and that’s ok.

I’m sorry, but when in my post did I say or even imply that raiding is THE gameplay and that if you’re not enjoying it you’re playing the game wrong? I came to this thread to share my opinion, because it was full of hate. Nobody actually said anything good about raiding. I deliberately tried to share my experience and thoughts without attacking anyone and you come and say that " I need to have bashed in my skull that not everyone will enjoy raiding the way I do" ? Who’s being discriminative now?

I agree that people will feel this way about teaching runs, but I do not understand them. If you you do not try to learn the tips and tricks of any group hobby that requires team effort, I don’t see how you’ll be accepted anywhere. I don’t see why this logic shouldn’t be applied here ,where it’s a game made by humans for humans. Anet themselves said that raids will not be for everyone and that they’d require dedication, practice and consistency.

Which is the same for me with legendary weapons. I feel that it’s a stupidly huge time and gold sink and that the rewards aren’t even remotely worth the resources invested. But I don’t come to the forums to kitten how that is stupid and that it should be nerfed and that it breeds greedy people that play the tp and farm for 6 hours a day, right ?

I’m sorry, but when in my post did I say or even imply that raiding is THE gameplay and that if you’re not enjoying it you’re playing the game wrong? I came to this thread to share my opinion, because it was full of hate. Nobody actually said anything good about raiding. I deliberately tried to share my experience and thoughts without attacking anyone and you come and say that " I need to have bashed in my skull that not everyone will enjoy raiding the way I do" ? Who’s being discriminative now?

I’m sorry if you genuinely did not intend that tone, but you concluded your post with the same “here’s how you can be better than you are” comments that frequently come up from seemingly well-meaning raiders.

I truly believe that most of these are trying to help people, but they come from a position of not understanding what the other person’s problem actually is, and from the outside that ends up seeming dismissive, like it’s ignoring what people have been actually saying their problems actually are. I just wanted to make clear that if you truly do want to help people, then step one is to listen to what their problems actually are, and then offer what help you can for those problems, rather than assuming what you think their problems are and then offering solutions that would help you if you weren’t already you.

I agree that people will feel this way about teaching runs, but I do not understand them. If you you do not try to learn the tips and tricks of any group hobby that requires team effort, I don’t see how you’ll be accepted anywhere. I don’t see why this logic shouldn’t be applied here ,where it’s a game made by humans for humans. Anet themselves said that raids will not be for everyone and that they’d require dedication, practice and consistency.

But part of what people are saying is that they do not enjoy that sort of experience, and do not want the game to pressure them into it, that they would prefer some alternative more similar to the style of the rest of the game, wherein you come as you are, and do your own thing, and as long as you do well, you help everyone else to do well, rather than being required to fit a specific cog in a machine.

Which is the same for me with legendary weapons. I feel that it’s a stupidly huge time and gold sink and that the rewards aren’t even remotely worth the resources invested. But I don’t come to the forums to kitten how that is stupid and that it should be nerfed and that it breeds greedy people that play the tp and farm for 6 hours a day, right ?

Maybe you should. I mean, if you don’t want to, that’s fine, but if you never speak up then you’ll never instigate a change. If you don’t like how Legendaries currently work, then you’d have every right to speak your mind about it, and hope that the developers change them to give you an option you’d be happier with.

Mikebringer.9738:

Ohoni.6057:

As a player ,I play games for mechanics. If I want to enjoy a good story I’ll read a book or watch a movie. As a “mechanics” player I enjoy gearing my character to the teeth,learning the ins and outs of its play style, synergies and I love perfecting my playing. I constantly look for builds, discuss with other people and try to improve. I like practicing rotations, so I can be as efficient as possible. Raids fit me perfectly. I familiarized myself with what my profession was supposed to do, what gear I should be using (metabattle is a wonderful resource) found a guild and jumped into raiding.

And I loved it. My former raiding experience, (albeit a lot of it) was mainly from WoW and Rift. Both games are ultimately the same in that regard. So the fresh new take on raiding from gw2 captivated me. I like how they handled “tanking” and “healing” ,I like that you cannot do gimmicky stuff to skip or ignore mechanics (like dungeons) and most of all I like that the weight of the encounter feels like it’s equally placed between all players.

I don’t know whether you play on EU or NA but both regions have a ton of guilds that teach raids and offer teaching runs. I myself recently joined a raiding hub (non rep guild full of players that want to raid) and there’s a raid group every day doing some boss. Do some search on reddit and google, you’re bound to find something.

The thing that’s REALLY important to fix in your mind here, is that while you enjoy something, that doesn’t make it the “right” way to play the game, it doesn’t make other players “wrong” for not enjoying it how you do.

the problem with raiding is not a difficulty finding “teaching runs,” it’s a complete disinterest in engaging in “teaching runs.” It’s about wanting to not NEED a “teaching run.” How you felt about Ascended grinding, other players feel about “teaching raids,” they just want a challenge level where they can go in and apply basic gameplay skills to pass the encounter in the first few attempts, and anything more is grind.

People who enjoy raids really need this driven into their skull like an iron spike: Just because you enjoy raids, does not mean that everyone else is exactly like you, only not as “enlightened” as you are yet. Many people genuinely enjoy different gameplay experiences, and no amount of attempts at raiding will lead to them enjoying it the way you do, and that’s ok.

I’m sorry, but when in my post did I say or even imply that raiding is THE gameplay and that if you’re not enjoying it you’re playing the game wrong? I came to this thread to share my opinion, because it was full of hate. Nobody actually said anything good about raiding. I deliberately tried to share my experience and thoughts without attacking anyone and you come and say that " I need to have bashed in my skull that not everyone will enjoy raiding the way I do" ? Who’s being discriminative now?

I agree that people will feel this way about teaching runs, but I do not understand them. If you you do not try to learn the tips and tricks of any group hobby that requires team effort, I don’t see how you’ll be accepted anywhere. I don’t see why this logic shouldn’t be applied here ,where it’s a game made by humans for humans. Anet themselves said that raids will not be for everyone and that they’d require dedication, practice and consistency.

Which is the same for me with legendary weapons. I feel that it’s a stupidly huge time and gold sink and that the rewards aren’t even remotely worth the resources invested. But I don’t come to the forums to kitten how that is stupid and that it should be nerfed and that it breeds greedy people that play the tp and farm for 6 hours a day, right ?

Yes the only differance mate is that you can make any legendary weapon with enough time no matter if you can only use 2 fingers to press buttons.

That is not true for getting the only legendary armor set announced and viper jewelery at this moment in time

“Yes the only differance mate is that you can make any legendary weapon with enough time no matter if you can only use 2 fingers to press buttons.

That is not true for getting the only legendary armor set announced and viper jewelery at this moment in time"

That’s not really an issue with raiding. It’s a design choice. I raid because I like the challenge and the team play, I don’t give 2 cents about legendary armor.

Mikebringer.9738:

“Yes the only differance mate is that you can make any legendary weapon with enough time no matter if you can only use 2 fingers to press buttons.

That is not true for getting the only legendary armor set announced and viper jewelery at this moment in time"

That’s not really an issue with raiding. It’s a design choice. I raid because I like the challenge and the team play, I don’t give 2 cents about legendary armor.

Yes and when people ask for easy mode raiding (also a bad design choice not to implement btw)
what get thrown back is but you cant have my shiney skins no matter if it take you 4 times or 6 times as long to get them.

If everyone were like you the two modes could coexist without a problem.

And why do people ask for this you may ask becouse its easier to implement since its only tweaking difficulty not making everything from scratch, that then provide the same kind of rewards.

That’s not really an issue with raiding. It’s a design choice. I raid because I like the challenge and the team play, I don’t give 2 cents about legendary armor.

But so long as raiding is the only way to get them, it is a raiding issue to everyone else. And while you may not have a problem with them being included in other content, plenty of raiders have argued against that, especially to alternate PvE sources.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s not really an issue with raiding. It’s a design choice. I raid because I like the challenge and the team play, I don’t give 2 cents about legendary armor.

But so long as raiding is the only way to get them, it is a raiding issue to everyone else. And while you may not have a problem with them being included in other content, plenty of raiders have argued against that, especially to alternate PvE sources.

Hmm, on the contrary, I remember some raiders agreeing to have legendary armors out of the raids (as long as it’s not in easy mode raids)

Hypairion.9210:

Ohoni.6057:

That’s not really an issue with raiding. It’s a design choice. I raid because I like the challenge and the team play, I don’t give 2 cents about legendary armor.

But so long as raiding is the only way to get them, it is a raiding issue to everyone else. And while you may not have a problem with them being included in other content, plenty of raiders have argued against that, especially to alternate PvE sources.

Hmm, on the contrary, I remember some raiders agreeing to have legendary armors out of the raids (as long as it’s not in easy mode raids)

Will said raiders develop and implement said content that the other legendary armors will be implemented in?

A better thing to lock is the skin and give another version in easy mode raid.
Why demand they do totaly new content and on top of that said skin for other legendary armor. ( if they can make a dif skin and tweak raids to make it into the game for less development time) + more of their playerbase get to play said raids.
If the intent is to get it implemented, then what these other raiders ask for is not on the table.
If you considering that they canceled legendary weapons.

Hypairion.9210:

Ohoni.6057:

That’s not really an issue with raiding. It’s a design choice. I raid because I like the challenge and the team play, I don’t give 2 cents about legendary armor.

But so long as raiding is the only way to get them, it is a raiding issue to everyone else. And while you may not have a problem with them being included in other content, plenty of raiders have argued against that, especially to alternate PvE sources.

Hmm, on the contrary, I remember some raiders agreeing to have legendary armors out of the raids (as long as it’s not in easy mode raids)

And for me that would be a good compromise. Unfortunately at the moment the chances of Anet making easy mode raids (or just nerfing the current ones) are much higher than them making those alternate options. They’ve just dissolved their legendary team after all.

The easy mode raids with leg armor is at the moment the option that requires least work from the devs while still leaving current raids intact. The only easier option would be to just nerf the current content, but that obviously would leave raiders unhappy.

Astralporing.1957:

Hypairion.9210:

Ohoni.6057:

That’s not really an issue with raiding. It’s a design choice. I raid because I like the challenge and the team play, I don’t give 2 cents about legendary armor.

But so long as raiding is the only way to get them, it is a raiding issue to everyone else. And while you may not have a problem with them being included in other content, plenty of raiders have argued against that, especially to alternate PvE sources.

Hmm, on the contrary, I remember some raiders agreeing to have legendary armors out of the raids (as long as it’s not in easy mode raids)

And for me that would be a good compromise. Unfortunately at the moment the chances of Anet making easy mode raids (or just nerfing the current ones) are much higher than them making those alternate options. They’ve just dissolved their legendary team after all.

The easy mode raids with leg armor is at the moment the option that requires least work from the devs while still leaving current raids intact. The only easier option would be to just nerf the current content, but that obviously would leave raiders unhappy.

I’m sorry, but you don’t have this information. You just hope the chance are higher, because that’s what you want, but actually, easy mode raid were never spoken by Anet, so…and btw, Gaile said in another topic that no one should estimate the dev work needed to implement something. No one except à dev can have this information.

Hypairion.9210:

Astralporing.1957:

Hypairion.9210:

Ohoni.6057:

That’s not really an issue with raiding. It’s a design choice. I raid because I like the challenge and the team play, I don’t give 2 cents about legendary armor.

But so long as raiding is the only way to get them, it is a raiding issue to everyone else. And while you may not have a problem with them being included in other content, plenty of raiders have argued against that, especially to alternate PvE sources.

Hmm, on the contrary, I remember some raiders agreeing to have legendary armors out of the raids (as long as it’s not in easy mode raids)

And for me that would be a good compromise. Unfortunately at the moment the chances of Anet making easy mode raids (or just nerfing the current ones) are much higher than them making those alternate options. They’ve just dissolved their legendary team after all.

The easy mode raids with leg armor is at the moment the option that requires least work from the devs while still leaving current raids intact. The only easier option would be to just nerf the current content, but that obviously would leave raiders unhappy.

I’m sorry, but you don’t have this information. You just hope the chance are higher, because that’s what you want, but actually, easy mode raid were never spoken by Anet, so…and btw, Gaile said in another topic that no one should estimate the dev work needed to implement something. No one except à dev can have this information.

So extending/removing enrage timers, tweaking damage on attacks.

Is the same work as doing totaly new content from scratch, what are you smoking I want it

Oh wait do you think easy mode raid mean totaly new raids?

Edit
And its not like the dungeons team that was disbanded and gone this team is still there and can implement this easier mode.

Not afraid at all, i just consider GW2 Raiding, that slums of this game’s community in regards to the mentality, elitism and overall terrible vocabulary used in there.

Why should i even bother with it? For an unreleased skin that most likely looks like a black lion skin? Please…

I’m not sure that making raids easier or adding an easy mode to exiting raids would lead to many more players doing them. A sizeable chunk of the player population just are not interested in raids, regardless of the difficulty. Coordinated PVE team play is a very different game style to most of the rest of the PVE game. Chances are if you are the sort of person that enjoys raiding then you are already doing it.

There’s a lot of hate towards raids in this thread. I want to share my personal experience.

Raids (and currently, SAB) are the only things bringing me back to guild wars 2. I would not play anymore if map metas or fractals were the only things to do in pve.

I like the combat in Guild wars 2. I like dodging. I like moving and attacking at the same time. I like not having to worry about 4 rows of spells.

Raids epitomize that kind of combat.

I understand that some people don’t like raids, for some reason or another. I just ask that you don’t destroy them. That’s why people like me comment on these threads. If raids disappeared (or if they stopped making them) I would quit guild wars 2.

And for what it’s worth, I’ve never seen the kind of elitism lambasted in this thread. Just yesterday, I formed a matthias pug group: “LFM MATT, exp, play 2+ classes.” We beat it after 45 minutes. And for several members it was their first kill.

So please don’t destroy raids. I understand if you don’t like them. Luckily, 95% of guild wars is not raids. You still have fractals, dungeons, map metas, world bosses, pvp, and wvw to enjoy.

Absurdo.8309:

There’s a lot of hate towards raids in this thread. I want to share my personal experience.

Raids (and currently, SAB) are the only things bringing me back to guild wars 2. I would not play anymore if map metas or fractals were the only things to do in pve.

I like the combat in Guild wars 2. I like dodging. I like moving and attacking at the same time. I like not having to worry about 4 rows of spells.

Raids epitomize that kind of combat.

I understand that some people don’t like raids, for some reason or another. I just ask that you don’t destroy them. That’s why people like me comment on these threads. If raids disappeared (or if they stopped making them) I would quit guild wars 2.

And for what it’s worth, I’ve never seen the kind of elitism lambasted in this thread. Just yesterday, I formed a matthias pug group: “LFM MATT, exp, play 2+ classes.” We beat it after 45 minutes. And for several members it was their first kill.

So please don’t destroy raids. I understand if you don’t like them. Luckily, 95% of guild wars is not raids. You still have fractals, dungeons, map metas, world bosses, pvp, and wvw to enjoy.

I will agree with this. Raids are the best content anet ever produced for my playstyle. They already butchered fractals to make it casual friendly, they stopped supporting dungeons… Raids is pretty much the only thing left for hardcore PvErs.

I think this issue may be alleviated somewhat when/if a raid LFG is implemented. Besides that, it’s about knowing the “format” for advertising yourself and knowing what people like.

I happened to join the Immortal Raiders [raid] as they act as a secondary LFG. It’s been working well for me so far (when it comes to finding a group).

Beating the raids, though…

That’s another story :P

I’m not afraid of them at all. I did plenty of raiding in WoW, and simply no longer want to deal with the BS drama, elitist culture, and general toxicity that inevitably surrounds raiding.

kurfu.5623:

I’m not afraid of them at all. I did plenty of raiding in WoW, and simply no longer want to deal with the BS drama, elitist culture, and general toxicity that inevitably surrounds raiding.

It’s all about finding the right people
Personally, I have experienced very little of that toxicity; most of the people I have raided with have been friendly. The worse I experience are people who leave after a second wipe.

Hypairion.9210:

Torolan.5816:

Hypairion.9210:

When i read the majority of the posts, i wonder if you guys understand what anet said with “raid won’t be for everyone”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

read it pls everyone. raid are maybe not for you that’s all (people “hating” the meta, refusing the adapt, not wanting to put some effort (lol 6h in first boss that’s nothing, i’ve spent around 15h on it…)).
Pls guys, just accept that for once in gw2, there is something that, maybe, is not for you. And again, that’s not a problem. i hate wvw and pvp, so i just dont play it.

And if you want to try raid, lfg is not the good tool, join a guild. We teach some people each week in mine. All we ask is proper gear, build and food (and all class are welcome btw, people that are saying the contrary just don’t know the raids). And yes, we need proper gear, food and build, because without dps, we cannot pass the wings (and btw, wing 2 is a lot less a dps check than the first one). You have to understand that raid IS (for now) the utlimate group content in gw2. So your own build, which probably works fine in open world pve, is maybe not attapted for the raids (where synergy between raid members is mandatory).

And if I read your post, I think you do not understand that this is not what the OP asked for.
The Thread Topic is:
“Why are people so afraid of raids?”
not
“Raids are not for everyone, so why do people complain about that on the internet?”
The OP asked for reasons, and people gave them their personal reasons. That you don´t see it that way is understandable, but also just a personal opinion.

What i read is: i’m affraid because i don’t want to be bullied by evil elitists. I don’t want to change armor or build, etc etc. Plus the “i don’t want to wipe hours by hours”
But all of this was implied by Anet before HOT. It’s a challenging content after all. So, it’s made to challenge people, to force them (if they want to raid) out of their confort zone.

Cool. Raids aren’t for me and I’ll freely say they aren’t. The OP asked why more people don’t do raids though, not “why don’t people think raids are for them or should be altered to fit them”. If you read the responses wrong, as lazy players who don’t put in effort, and as whining, then that’s on you. I don’t have a single issue with elite content existing that I’m not able to do as long as it’s not a main component of the game. I’m middle aged, my reflexes are bad and I have disability issues, and if I want to be challenged and frustrated – I have a whole stack of NES games to play (Ninja Gaiden.. shudder )

No one is saying OH MY GOSH, NERF RAIDS.

I’m still slowly into the process of killing bosses in the first wing, but I fear ANet might take away this content because of the amount of crying. I feel sad… I didn’t want them to give up on challenging content as this has been requested since launch, and people suddenly come and rage because they’re not fit for this content and/or don’t want to work towards finding a group, actually raiding, learning the mechanics, doing all that lengthy stuff that is common in any MMO with raids.

Hmm, on the contrary, I remember some raiders agreeing to have legendary armors out of the raids (as long as it’s not in easy mode raids)

In some vague sense, perhaps, usually in PvP or WvW, but they rarely agreed on an alternative for them. Most responses along those lines were non-committal “well, maybe years down the line when they’ve gotten everything else taken care of they could figure out some alternative. . .” And if one could agree in principle to having Legendary Armor outside of current raids, and also agree in principle that any form of easy mode raid is acceptable, then there’s no justification for arguing that it can’t be both.

I’m not sure that making raids easier or adding an easy mode to exiting raids would lead to many more players doing them. A sizeable chunk of the player population just are not interested in raids, regardless of the difficulty. Coordinated PVE team play is a very different game style to most of the rest of the PVE game. Chances are if you are the sort of person that enjoys raiding then you are already doing it.

No. There are certainly some players who would never do it, but there are a lot of players who would enjoy an easier raid, but that have no interest in the existing ones because of all the things that difficulty brings. It’s not even that the player individually doesn’t enjoy difficulty, but if the raids were lower risk, then party composition would be as simple as “we got ten bodies to turn up? Let’s go.” There would be little to no drama because it would be unlikely for anyone to screw it up. Basically, 90% of the reasons anyone would have to not raid would evaporate.

I understand that some people don’t like raids, for some reason or another. I just ask that you don’t destroy them. That’s why people like me comment on these threads. If raids disappeared (or if they stopped making them) I would quit guild wars 2.

Don’t worry, nobody wants to destroy raids, we’re just asking for alternative avenues to play the same content and acquire the same rewards. If all goes well, the raids that you love would remain 100% untouched. The only scenario in which the existing raids would get nerfed is one in which alternative modes are prevents somehow.

I don’t want to have to reforge my ascended armor every time the new FOTM patch comes out.

Absurdo.8309:

There’s a lot of hate towards raids in this thread. I want to share my personal experience.

Raids (and currently, SAB) are the only things bringing me back to guild wars 2. I would not play anymore if map metas or fractals were the only things to do in pve.

I like the combat in Guild wars 2. I like dodging. I like moving and attacking at the same time. I like not having to worry about 4 rows of spells.

Raids epitomize that kind of combat.

I understand that some people don’t like raids, for some reason or another. I just ask that you don’t destroy them. That’s why people like me comment on these threads. If raids disappeared (or if they stopped making them) I would quit guild wars 2.

And for what it’s worth, I’ve never seen the kind of elitism lambasted in this thread. Just yesterday, I formed a matthias pug group: “LFM MATT, exp, play 2+ classes.” We beat it after 45 minutes. And for several members it was their first kill.

So please don’t destroy raids. I understand if you don’t like them. Luckily, 95% of guild wars is not raids. You still have fractals, dungeons, map metas, world bosses, pvp, and wvw to enjoy.

Explain how the raids are destroyed if they are exactly the same but there is a mode that take away/extend enrange timer, lessen the punishment of mechanics and people earn currency 6-10 times less then normal so if cap for normal is 100 easy mode 10-60 a week.

You still get your shineys and they can even add special titles to the normal raid, we dont care about that.
We want to experience the content and get the rewards over a longer period of time, becouse some arent young whippersnappers anymore

Oh, I’m not afraid of raiding.

I would love to try and raid. But first, there’s a wall you have to cross. That is, trying to raid.

I just don’t want to waste time with half the people kicking everyone who doesn’t perform perfectly, until the party just disbands, and the other half leaving the map after one wipe, once they realize they can’t be carried by others and they just have to well, have a minimum of ability.

And so, I spent more time trying to raid than actually raiding.

There isn’t even a proper LFG for raids, or in-game forum-like guild search where guild scan set their announcements for others to find, or a permanent scheduling bulletin where you put at which times you are available for what things, to find people with whom do raids without having to find them live, and I am no fan of registering on a thousand different fansites or waiting for ages in map resetting the LFG as people keep entering and leaving, disbanding my LFG until I can’t make any more LFGs.

So until that is fixed, it’ll be a waste of time.

Ohoni.6057:

GW2 needs super-elite trait lines that force team dependency in order to break away from “Elitist” problems. Roles create demand for specific professions resulting in more flexibility on who fills that role.

No.

It just needs to accept that “super role-oriented” gameplay is not gameplay that GW2 should have. There can be individual roles to perform, but they should be very flexible to enter into, less reliant on build and more reliant on the desire to take on that role.

I was discussing this in the “Easy mode raid” thread, but it would be nice if at bosses like VG and Gorseval where they focus on the guy with the highest toughness, if there were a shrine of some kind outside it, that would apply a single +200 Toughness buff on a single character per run, perhaps even higher, to allow for almost any character to choose to be the tank, regardless of his own gearing, or the gearing of the rest of the group. Or just make it a straight up “agro buff” that has nothing to do with Toughness.

I’m very much in favor of mechanics that use bundles or buffs to control the rolls you play, where any character can pick any role and be handed the tools needed to perform that role, rather than requiring roles that require you to build your character to that role.

I think you are wrong. What you describe is easy mode for raids.

There is plenty of easy content.
There is some hard content.
Only organized team PvP requires cooperative combat. All other content is semi-cooperative individual play, at best.

Raids are a step in the direction of forcing team play in PvE by encouraging players to assume a few roles. The new elite trait lines and skills also encourage functional roles.

Unfortunately, there is little other content in the game where a team will fail if it does not have players bringing specific builds with large handicaps meant to be covered by other roles with advantages meant to fill those functional gaps.

“Stand on this block while I pull this lever” is just a complicated easy mode. You can have it. I do not want it. It is a simple puzzle to memorize. GW2 and L’l Big Pl’nt. have plenty of that.

I want PvE with roles created by skill and trait selection that also force dependency on other players (or people die).

No more “zerker only” PvE design.

I like seeing posts like “Have 2 dps and buffer. Need healer, tank, light tank, condi, ranged dps.”

Teach people to be dependant on cooperative play to reduce the “I’ll just do whatever I want because I am the only one that matters on this team.”

I think you are wrong. What you describe is easy mode for raids.

There is plenty of easy content.
There is some hard content.
Only organized team PvP requires cooperative combat. All other content is semi-cooperative individual play, at best.

Raids are a step in the direction of forcing team play in PvE by encouraging players to assume a few roles. The new elite trait lines and skills also encourage functional roles.

Unfortunately, there is little other content in the game where a team will fail if it does not have players bringing specific builds with large handicaps meant to be covered by other roles with advantages meant to fill those functional gaps.

“Stand on this block while I pull this lever” is just a complicated easy mode. You can have it. I do not want it. It is a simple puzzle to memorize. GW2 and L’l Big Pl’nt. have plenty of that.

I want PvE with roles created by skill and trait selection that also force dependency on other players (or people die).

No more “zerker only” PvE design.

I like seeing posts like “Have 2 dps and buffer. Need healer, tank, light tank, condi, ranged dps.”

Teach people to be dependant on cooperative play to reduce the “I’ll just do whatever I want because I am the only one that matters on this team.”

What I describe is easy mode for raids, because that’s what I want. I think that they can leave the existing raid versions in, people that enjoy what you enjoy can play those, but a lack of enjoying that sort of thing should not prevent players from experiencing the rest of what raids have to offer. There should be both the current version AND an easy mode that removes the drama people are complaining about.

Yes, we want two different things – two opposite things: You want a casual mode for raids and I want less complicated raids that require more focused roles via builds to prevent wipes.

This game kind of bores and frustrates me because I am used to belonging to a few statics where skill, knowledge, trust, and utter dependency on other roles forges teamwork. Nearly all PvE runs counter to that.

Raids need to push roles even further for my liking. If a raid needs lots pets, for example, it should demand Engineers, Elementalists, Guardians, Necromancers, and other roles to keep them alive (Ranger), do max damage, buff the pets, hold aggro to position the boss, hide pet owners, etc.

Ps
This game does not train players in PvE or even WvW for advanced team strategy and tactics like other games. Most of GW2 is very casual so there is very little team play tutorial content to teach tactical and role skills.

Absurdo.8309:

eldrin.6471:

Im 53 and disabled and dont like taking abuse from elitist teenagers.
Its not the raids so much as the people and attitude they attract.

If I came into this debate without knowing anything about either “side,” I would find this comment incredibly dismissive.

What have you found “abusive” from raiders? I lead pug groups every week. I have not encountered any abusive behavior.

You join and they kick you because your gear is “bad” to them, they abuse you for supposedly wasting their time, they abuse you if you make a mistake, they abuse you because they enjoy it.. They even abuse you if your build is “wrong”..

There is not friendly raiding, its all elitists groups trying to be better than other elitist groups and if anything at all effects that out come they let you know it..

Anchoku.8142:

Ps
This game does not train players in PvE or even WvW for advanced team strategy and tactics like other games. Most of GW2 is very casual so there is very little team play tutorial content to teach tactical and role skills.

A lot of players enjoy that, its why i play games, to relax and enjoy, not challenge and frustrate me, The more content gets hard, the more populations die..

I understand there is a small minority that like Hardcore raiding but the rest of us just like a casual game to play daily with our friends etc..

The open world is so old now we need new content like team play etc, just less of the challenge thrown at us, being 42 my hand eye coordination cannot cut raiding anymore, at least the type you want..

Quasar.1756:

Ty to all those who took the time to answer my question. Now that’s out the way, this

thread reminds me of another thread from another game…….Oh yea that’s right WoW…I

remember the casuals fighting the hardcores before the big subscription drop and then

this game offered a way out….LET’S SEE IF HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF O.O

You mean the expansion nicknamed World of Garrisoncraft? The one where the main endgame was either raid, sit in your Garrison and send out fake ships and crews for rewards or finish up the previous expansion’s content? I don’t think the comparison fits. There was a big drop in subscription numbers, but it was more due to turning an MMO into a Facebook game where max levels sat isolated in their Garrison doing their chores than an argument between casuals and elites.

Yes, we want two different things – two opposite things: You want a casual mode for raids and I want less complicated raids that require more focused roles via builds to prevent wipes.

This game kind of bores and frustrates me because I am used to belonging to a few statics where skill, knowledge, trust, and utter dependency on other roles forges teamwork. Nearly all PvE runs counter to that.

Yes, GW2 is not the game for you, and that’s fine, not all games are for all people. I think the problem with raids is that they run counter to everything else about GW2, so people who like GW2 don’t like the raids, while people who do like the raids are grousing about everything else that is GW2.

Anchoku.8142:

Yes, we want two different things – two opposite things: You want a casual mode for raids and I want less complicated raids that require more focused roles via builds to prevent wipes.

This game kind of bores and frustrates me because I am used to belonging to a few statics where skill, knowledge, trust, and utter dependency on other roles forges teamwork. Nearly all PvE runs counter to that.

Raids need to push roles even further for my liking. If a raid needs lots pets, for example, it should demand Engineers, Elementalists, Guardians, Necromancers, and other roles to keep them alive (Ranger), do max damage, buff the pets, hold aggro to position the boss, hide pet owners, etc.

Ps
This game does not train players in PvE or even WvW for advanced team strategy and tactics like other games. Most of GW2 is very casual so there is very little team play tutorial content to teach tactical and role skills.

No not really you want only the raid we have now.
Ohoni wants that aswell but with an extra mode so more can enjoy said content and work towards same rewards at a slower pace.

So in Ohonis case you dont lose what you have now at all. ( Well you might if all of the people decided that no its not worth it to gain x2-x10 the rewards depending on how much lower the cap on easy mode is )

But if that happens then they dident do raids now for the enjoyment anyway just to have kitten and lord over those who cant/wont.

Linken.6345:

Explain how the raids are destroyed if they are exactly the same but there is a mode that take away/extend enrange timer, lessen the punishment of mechanics and people earn currency 6-10 times less then normal so if cap for normal is 100 easy mode 10-60 a week.

You still get your shineys and they can even add special titles to the normal raid, we dont care about that.
We want to experience the content and get the rewards over a longer period of time, becouse some arent young whippersnappers anymore

The obvious answer being the resources you’d need to get an easy mode would either be too much for anet to consider so they scrap raids entirely. Or they do promise an easier mode and then realise it’s too much work and scrap raids entirely. Or they don’t bring out a new raid for another year because they need to work on an easy mode which would kill the game for us too. The casualized, butchered fractals and unsupported, unrewarding, straight up broken dungeons surely won’t keep us here.

Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not necessarily against any type of easier mode (even though imo you should NOT get all rewards), but considering recent events I don’t think any of these above scenarios are that far-fetched.

The obvious answer being the resources you’d need to get an easy mode would either be too much for anet to consider so they scrap raids entirely.

I don’t believe so. I proposed an easy mode conversion that I believe would be extremely simple to implement, like hours, tops. So far, nobody on the inside has come up with a contradictory number on that. There are certainly other ways to do it that would involve more work, but either way, retooling a copy of the existing raid would inevitably take less time than building a new raid-like content from scratch, and running content down from a “highly tuned balanced hard mode” level to a “looser and more flexible easy mode” level is much easier than trying to do it the other way around. You just have to loosen some of the screws.

In either case, I don’t think that wanting to do an easy mode would cause them to somehow scrap hard mode entirely, not unless not enough people are playing hard mode to justify its existence (in which case, easy mode is not the problem).

And again, if they work on easy mode for months at a time then they’re doing something wrong.

Ohoni.6057:

The obvious answer being the resources you’d need to get an easy mode would either be too much for anet to consider so they scrap raids entirely.

I don’t believe so. I proposed an easy mode conversion that I believe would be extremely simple to implement, like hours, tops. So far, nobody on the inside has come up with a contradictory number on that. There are certainly other ways to do it that would involve more work, but either way, retooling a copy of the existing raid would inevitably take less time than building a new raid-like content from scratch, and running content down from a “highly tuned balanced hard mode” level to a “looser and more flexible easy mode” level is much easier than trying to do it the other way around. You just have to loosen some of the screws.

In either case, I don’t think that wanting to do an easy mode would cause them to somehow scrap hard mode entirely, not unless not enough people are playing hard mode to justify its existence (in which case, easy mode is not the problem).

And again, if they work on easy mode for months at a time then they’re doing something wrong.

Let’s be fair here, there’s no way you could know any of this. Either way, as I said before, I’m not opposed to it. Honestly I doubt any raider would mind if it doesn’t affect future wing releases and doesn’t devalue our rewards as happened with fractals.

Let’s be fair here, there’s no way you could know any of this. Either way, as I said before, I’m not opposed to it. Honestly I doubt any raider would mind if it doesn’t affect future wing releases and doesn’t devalue our rewards as happened with fractals.

You would be surprised. There are plenty of raiders who have said “nu-uh, no way” to any form of easy mode, especially if it includes ANY reasonable path towards Legendary armor, even at a much slower pace than hard mode.

Ohoni.6057:

Let’s be fair here, there’s no way you could know any of this. Either way, as I said before, I’m not opposed to it. Honestly I doubt any raider would mind if it doesn’t affect future wing releases and doesn’t devalue our rewards as happened with fractals.

You would be surprised. There are plenty of raiders who have said “nu-uh, no way” to any form of easy mode, especially if it includes ANY reasonable path towards Legendary armor, even at a much slower pace than hard mode.

Which is understandable since it’s the biggest and most worthwhile reward available for raids. If they give it freely away they would need to boost the so-called “hardmode” rewards that are quite terrible atm. Just giving away the legendary armor would be exactly what I was talking about, devaluating raid rewards.