Guild Wars 2

redcomyn.4651:

The one to Rule.2593:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Something like “Can you change your class?” or “Don’t use x trait here because Y is a lot better.” or even “We are looking for a warrior but you entered as a ranger. Change class or leave.” is extremely offensive in gw2.

Yeah how dare you have to work with your team in the most beneficial way instead of being selfish. They really are jerks for asking you to change a trait! next time they might ask you to go in zerker gear to optimize your dps too!

And there it is, a precise example of what we hate about the kind of people who raid. Heck, looking at the guy’s name “the one to rule” tells you everything you need to know about him. (shakes head)

Actually my name on here tells you absolutely nothing about me. But it’s funny that you think your logical fallacies mean anything by trying to discredit me instead of actually refuting the point i was making.

Raids require teamwork, this means adapting to any given scenario, if you won’t change or refuse to take advice when the person is explaining why X trait is better than Y for a given encounter, that’s not a problem with raids, that’s a problem with you as a person. I don’t care what someone plays or how well they play it, if you refuse to adapt to the situation and insist your way is right while ignoring helpful advice, no one is going to want you.

Which is understandable since it’s the biggest and most worthwhile reward available for raids. If they give it freely away they would need to boost the so-called “hardmode” rewards that are quite terrible atm. Just giving away the legendary armor would be exactly what I was talking about, devaluating raid rewards.

But nobody mentioned “just giving it away,” you would still have to work hard to earn them, just in easy mode. Where did you get “just giving it away” from?

Ohoni.6057:

Which is understandable since it’s the biggest and most worthwhile reward available for raids. If they give it freely away they would need to boost the so-called “hardmode” rewards that are quite terrible atm. Just giving away the legendary armor would be exactly what I was talking about, devaluating raid rewards.

But nobody mentioned “just giving it away,” you would still have to work hard to earn them, just in easy mode. Where did you get “just giving it away” from?

Wing 1 in the current difficulty can be completed in 23 minutes, so how exactly is anyone going to “work hard” in easy mode? It would take an hour a week at most, with 0 challenge, 0 learning curve. How is this not supposed to look as giving it away to the people that took the effort to actually learn to play the content?

At the very least I hope you understand that lack of exclusivity devaluates a reward.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t believe so. I proposed an easy mode conversion that I believe would be extremely simple to implement, like hours, tops.

It’s too bad you don’t have anything to back that up.

Ohoni.6057:

So far, nobody on the inside has come up with a contradictory number on that.

It’s your job to prove that your conversion is actually simple/easy to implement, it’s not the job of others to disprove it.

Ohoni.6057:

But nobody mentioned “just giving it away,” you would still have to work hard to earn them, just in easy mode. Where did you get “just giving it away” from?

Your concept of an easy mode doesn’t contain any hard work, at all. You’re wanting to give it away to anyone who bothers to show up and spam 1 for an hour per week; I fail to see how that counts as “hard work”.

Alternative acquisition methods for Legendary armor would be fine, as long as it’s not some method that actually requires effort instead of just giving it away; making it easy to acquire ruins the whole point, not to mention the fact that it devalues the reward.

Easy mode raids would be fine as long as they had some sort of reduced Magnetite rewards/less chances of ascended drops and removed the possibility for progression towards legendary armor. Otherwise, nah.

Wing 1 in the current difficulty can be completed in 23 minutes, so how exactly is anyone going to “work hard” in easy mode? It would take an hour a week at most, with 0 challenge, 0 learning curve.

Right, but nobody is suggesting that it should take the same number of runs, it would take several times more runs, so overall it would take a comparable amount of time. I haven’t considered it until now, but what if it ended up taking, say, 15 times as many runs, but instead of being a weekly lock-out on easy mode it was only daily, so you could do hard mode once per week, or do easy mode every day, but it would still add up to taking more weeks and more hours to run easy mode than hard mode.

How is this not supposed to look as giving it away to the people that took the effort to actually learn to play the content?

Because it still requires work. By definition, giving things away can’t require work.

At the very least I hope you understand that lack of exclusivity devaluates a reward.

No.

You’re wanting to give it away to anyone who bothers to show up and spam 1 for an hour per week; I fail to see how that counts as “hard work”.

People can do that in hard mode right now if the rest of the group carries them. The mode I suggest would not allow the entire group to “show up and press 1,” it would still require active participation and players actually using their full range of abilities. Not all of them, perhaps, but most.

It’s too bad you don’t have anything to back that up.

I don’t need anything to back it up, nobody else has anything to disprove it. The only way that the balance on that point would shift is if someone within ANet who has understanding of their encounter development tools were to respond one way or the other. Until then, I stand by my point that given the way these games are typically constructed, given what other content they’ve been able to create and edit within hours, days, or weeks, the sort of changes I’m suggesting should require no more than a few man-hours of work.

It’s your job to prove that your conversion is actually simple/easy to implement, it’s not the job of others to disprove it.

No. It’s a neutral argument, neither side has more burden of proof than the other, it ultimately comes down to what ANet decides, until then both sides are merely making best guesses, and neither side needs to “prove” anything.

Ohoni.6057:

Which is understandable since it’s the biggest and most worthwhile reward available for raids. If they give it freely away they would need to boost the so-called “hardmode” rewards that are quite terrible atm. Just giving away the legendary armor would be exactly what I was talking about, devaluating raid rewards.

But nobody mentioned “just giving it away,” you would still have to work hard to earn them, just in easy mode. Where did you get “just giving it away” from?

Basically, you want easy mode so easy that every group could beat it, regardless of their build / gear, with no wipe mechanisms. Oh and you don’t want that it takes 3 more times as hard mode to obtain legendary armor.

Bah, that’s giving away the armor for me, since you’ll only have to grind a little with no Risk / effort / skill involved to have it.
And btw, Gaile already told you to stop making bet about how long it would be to developp it, unless you’re an anet developper.

Ohoni.6057:

Right, but nobody is suggesting that it should take the same number of runs, it would take several times more runs, so overall it would take a comparable amount of time.

Which still doesn’t make it hard work. Just time consuming.

Ohoni.6057:

Because it still requires work. By definition, giving things away can’t require work.

Sure, it takes the bare minimum of effort over a moderate amount of time. That’s not really an appreciable amount of work.

Ohoni.6057:

At the very least I hope you understand that lack of exclusivity devaluates a reward.

No.

Lmao

Ohoni.6057:

People can do that in hard mode right now if the rest of the group carries them. The mode I suggest would not allow the entire group to “show up and press 1,” it would still require active participation and players actually using their full range of abilities. Not all of them, perhaps, but most.

Sure, people can get carried now, but there are still people who need to put in effort to succeed. Your idea of easy mode- where any random group of people running whatever build they want can complete the content with a minimum of failure- can’t require active participation or players using their full range of abilities. You want the bar to be so low that yes, people can just show up and press 1.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t need anything to back it up, nobody else has anything to disprove it.

That’s not how it works; you’re the one making the claim. That puts the burden of proof solidly on your shoulders.

Ohoni.6057:

Until then, I stand by my point that given the way these games are typically constructed, given what other content they’ve been able to create and edit within hours, days, or weeks, the sort of changes I’m suggesting should require no more than a few man-hours of work.

Good for you. That doesn’t make it any more factual or true.

Ohoni.6057:

No. It’s a neutral argument, neither side has more burden of proof than the other, it ultimately comes down to what ANet decides, until then both sides are merely making best guesses, and neither side needs to “prove” anything.

No, you’re stating something as fact- that it’ll be easy to implement these changes. You need to back that up or it will continue to hold a grand total of 0 water.

I really like how you switched from “you can’t disprove me” to “it’s a neutral argument, neither side needs to prove anything” within the same post, though.

Bah, that’s giving away the armor for me, since you’ll only have to grind a little with no Risk / effort / skill involved to have it.

Highlighted the important part, since that is the distinction between “giving them away,” with is not true, and “giving it away,” for you, which is an opinion and could mean anything at all. I mean, having to collect all the Tribulation weapons could be “giving it away” for you and would still be a valid statement, even though on the face of it most would consider that nonsensical.

But suffice it to say, it would in actual fact require plenty of time and effort, and therefore not, in fact, be “giving it away.”

Let’s just remain clear on terminology.

And btw, Gaile already told you to stop making bet about how long it would be to developp it, unless you’re an anet developper.

She has yet to get back to us with a developer response on how much time the easy mode I described would take, so I’ll stick with my reasonable estimates until new data comes in, thank you.

Which still doesn’t make it hard work. Just time consuming.

An irrelevant distinction in a game. Effort expended is still effort expended, whether it’s low effort over a long time scale or high effort over a short one.

Sure, people can get carried now, but there are still people who need to put in effort to succeed.

And as I said, that would remain true of easy mode, it would just require less effort overall for each battle.

You want the bar to be so low that yes, people can just show up and press 1.

No, I do not. Unless they are Daredevils, because DDs have an awesome 1 and should probably be pressing it as much as possible.

That’s not how it works; you’re the one making the claim. That puts the burden of proof solidly on your shoulders.

Not when I’m making a reasonable estimate, which is the only thing ANY of us are capable of from outside the company. Someone with a name like “Fermi” should know that.

Good for you. That doesn’t make it any more factual or true.

Never claimed that it did, but neither are the claims that it would take an inordinate amount of developer time, and between the two of them, my position is the more reasonable estimate. It’s like I show you a standard Mason jar full of jellybeans, and I tell you that my estimate is that it contains 100 jellybeans. Another person tells you that it contains 25,000 jellybeans. Now, I might be wrong, and there’s some possibility that the other guy is right, and the only way to prove it would be to actually count each bean, but lacking that evidence either way, wouldn’t my estimate seem the more reasonable of the two?

No, you’re stating something as fact- that it’ll be easy to implement these changes.

The only thing I assert as fact is that it would be easier than implementing entirely new content of comparable scale. As others have suggested they should build an entirely new “easy raid” that uses entirely new assets, new boss mechanics, etc. Whatever amount of effort it would take to produce such a thing, it would inevitably take more effort than copy-pasting and rebuilding the existing content.

As for my assertion that easy mode would take minimal effort, that is my estimate based on a reasonable interpretation of known facts, and one that I will hold to until presented with new data to the contrary. Others have asserted that it would take months or more of effort to produce a single easy mode raid, and I believe these estimates are unreasonable, and will continue to do so until presented with evidence to the contrary. If you want me to believe that jar contains 25,000 beans, you’re going to have to count them out.

I avoid any game content where players ask you to link your choice of gear. Linking gears can end in tears.

Unless it’s just to inquire for the looks, then that’s ok!

Ohoni.6057:

An irrelevant distinction in a game. Effort expended is still effort expended, whether it’s low effort over a long time scale or high effort over a short one.

Except one type of effort is considerably more impressive and deserving of reward.

No, I do not. Unless they are Daredevils, because DDs have an awesome 1 and should probably be pressing it as much as possible.

That’s strange, because it’s completely different from what you’ve said in every other case where you’ve described what your ideal easy mode would entail.

Not when I’m making a reasonable estimate, which is the only thing ANY of us are capable of from outside the company. Someone with a name like “Fermi” should know that.

Except it’s impossible to make a “reasonable estimate” when you have a grand total of 0 information to base it on.

Never claimed that it did, but neither are the claims that it would take an inordinate amount of developer time, and between the two of them, my position is the more reasonable estimate.

Of course you think that. Sadly, no estimate is a reasonable estimate, since no one knows what things are like at Anet, including you.

It’s like I show you a standard Mason jar full of jellybeans, and I tell you that my estimate is that it contains 100 jellybeans. Another person tells you that it contains 25,000 jellybeans. Now, I might be wrong, and there’s some possibility that the other guy is right, and the only way to prove it would be to actually count each bean, but lacking that evidence either way, wouldn’t my estimate seem the more reasonable of the two?

What a poor analogy. When it comes to Anet, we don’t know how big the jar is. Or if it’s a jar. We see a large, closed cardboard box and are told to guess how many jelly beans it contains. Guess what? No one can make a guess because you have no idea how full it is or even if it contains jelly beans.

As for my assertion that easy mode would take minimal effort, that is my estimate based on a reasonable interpretation of known facts, and one that I will hold to until presented with new data to the contrary.

“I pulled numbers out of my kitten based on some stuff I think make sense and will keep assuming that they’re correct until anet proves otherwise”

Others have asserted that it would take months or more of effort to produce a single easy mode raid, and I believe these estimates are unreasonable, and will continue to do so until presented with evidence to the contrary. If you want me to believe that jar contains 25,000 beans, you’re going to have to count them out.

Others have made assertions that have exactly as much factual evidence to back them up as yours do. If you want to keep believing that your kitten numbers are perfect and make sense you can feel free to do that but, since you have nothing- at all- to back them up, anyone reasonable will go ahead and dismiss them.

Simple. I don’t have the time nor the money to craft new ascended amours and weapons to fit the raider needs.

Even then I don’t like the idea of the high fail rate as I see it as do or die sort of event when if come to these raids. By all means I know it suppose to be hard but I see it a waste of time if I get nothing from it including failures.

Also yeah, I can’t stand stuck up elite people that usual spawn from these sort of quest nor do I believe the players will be so forgiven to the noob that fail the raid.

Seeing how raid is an optional thing to do in the game, I choose to not take part in it as simple as that.

Except one type of effort is considerably more impressive and deserving of reward.

Not really. More impressive to you, perhaps, I can’t speak to that, but not more impressive to me. I don’t why see what you find impressive should control what gear and skins I have access to, right?

That’s strange, because it’s completely different from what you’ve said in every other case where you’ve described what your ideal easy mode would entail.

It’s really not.

Except it’s impossible to make a “reasonable estimate” when you have a grand total of 0 information to base it on.

Sorry, I assumed you were aware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem

Of course you think that. Sadly, no estimate is a reasonable estimate, since no one knows what things are like at Anet, including you.

If my estimate is an unreasonable one, then they have bigger problems than easy mode raids, and need to sit down with their development middlewear designers and work out some easier content management tools. There are third party GW2 web pages that allow easy enough skill creation/management to achieve what I’m talking about in short order. If it does somehow take them more than a few hours to implement what I discussed then they must be digging ditches with desert spoons.

What a poor analogy. When it comes to Anet, we don’t know how big the jar is. Or if it’s a jar.

We know how big the jar is, and we know it contains jellybeans, because, to break the analogy, it’s a game, so it obviously doesn’t contain car parts, it contains bits of a game. The jar is:
-Take The existing raid wing.
-Copy and paste it.
-Use the existing “which raid wing do you want to enter” UI to allow choice between -Spirit Vale (hard) and Spirit Vale (easy).
-Take that second one, and tweak it down a bit. Reduce boss HP by 5-10%, reduce the damage of certain “highly likely to down you” attacks by around 20% or so.
-Remove enemy skill affixes like “automatically defeats you” and replace them with “automatically downs you” or just “deals unblockable damage sufficient to down most basic builds”, perhaps reduce certain attacks from “unlimited targets” to “five targets,” allowing them to down half the party while allowing the other half to get them back up. None of these effects would be new, they could all be borrowed from existing attacks, and should be in the GW2 toolkit. Changing them should be as simple as selecting them from a drop-down menu in their toolkit, or at most deleting and retyping a reference to where that move is stored in the existing code. It’s like removing one lego brick and replacing it with another.

Now the hard part would be the loot, making it “fair,” they would need to add new items to the game, “1/3 the existing items” type items, where you double click a stack of three of them to make a single bigger one, they already have all the tech needed for that, but would have to apply it.

We’ve seen the sort of changes they have been capable of implementing over several weeks or months, we’ve seen what changes they’ve been able to implement within days or hours of a bad patch, so we have a reasonable idea of what they can achieve within a relatively short amount of time.

Still, all combined, this does not seem like any huge lift, given access to the tools and their knowledge of how to use them, it shouldn’t take long at all. This is not like needing to design an entirely new environment, entirely new mobs, entirely original combat mechanics, etc., it is just changing some values in a database.

cranos.5913:

Ohoni.6057:

Let’s be fair here, there’s no way you could know any of this. Either way, as I said before, I’m not opposed to it. Honestly I doubt any raider would mind if it doesn’t affect future wing releases and doesn’t devalue our rewards as happened with fractals.

You would be surprised. There are plenty of raiders who have said “nu-uh, no way” to any form of easy mode, especially if it includes ANY reasonable path towards Legendary armor, even at a much slower pace than hard mode.

Which is understandable since it’s the biggest and most worthwhile reward available for raids. If they give it freely away they would need to boost the so-called “hardmode” rewards that are quite terrible atm.

Sure. They need to do it anyway, since Legendary Armor has no sustaining power. You can get it only once (that, btw, is bad – we need a repeatable way to get a legendary armor, just like we have such a way for weapons), and after that it disappears as a reason to grind raids. If indeed Leg Armor being accessible elsewhere would make Raids an empty wasteland, it means they will become that wasteland anyway, as soon as people will start getting it.

Fermi.2409:

Ohoni.6057:

An irrelevant distinction in a game. Effort expended is still effort expended, whether it’s low effort over a long time scale or high effort over a short one.

Except one type of effort is considerably more impressive and deserving of reward.

That’s only what you think. Because you like raids.
I don’t find them impressive at all, and don’t think that a fact that you like a certain gamemode and i don’t makes that gamemode better or any more deserving of rewards.

Fermi.2409:

No, I do not. Unless they are Daredevils, because DDs have an awesome 1 and should probably be pressing it as much as possible.

That’s strange, because it’s completely different from what you’ve said in every other case where you’ve described what your ideal easy mode would entail.

Were you reading Ohoni’s post, or their strawman representation by other posters? Because it seems the latter.

Fermi.2409:

Not when I’m making a reasonable estimate, which is the only thing ANY of us are capable of from outside the company. Someone with a name like “Fermi” should know that.

Except it’s impossible to make a “reasonable estimate” when you have a grand total of 0 information to base it on.

Ah, but we have considerably more than zero informations. We, for example, know that one wing takes around 4 months to make, and most of that is creating assets. Yes, those assets that the easy mode would not need to create. Most of the remaining work wouldn’t need to be created from scratch either.

Sure, it wouldn’t take hours, like Ohoni claims, but saying that it would take many months is an even more ridiculous claim.

Astralporing.1957:

Sure, it wouldn’t take hours, like Ohoni claims, but saying that it would take many months is an even more ridiculous claim.

Redesigning bosses, rebalancing all rewards and drop rates, QA and playtests, relinking achievements and then maintaining 3 additional instances. It took more than 2 months to adjust a drop rate of trash items from fractal inscriptions.

Redesigning bosses, rebalancing all rewards and drop rates, QA and playtests, relinking achievements and then maintaining 3 additional instances. It took more than 2 months to adjust a drop rate of trash items from fractal inscriptions.

QA and playtests are not development, they are handled by an entirely different unit. I’m not saying that the project would be done within hours of them picking it up, I’m saying that it wouldn’t take more than a few hours of actual developer time. I’m saying that a handful or less of developers could make the changes they need to make within a few hours, send it out for testing, moving on to other tasks, get feedback, make a few corrections that would take several more minutes, repeat as necessary, but all in all it shouldn’t take very long when compared to ANY alternative.

Also, the “redesigns” I’m talking about are very straightforward and simplistic to implement, not like some others have suggested where they actually change the scale or timing of individual elements.

Also, I described it in a way that achievements would not have to be altered significantly, if at all. They could simply make it so that the easy mode versions just do not count as the same encounters, and therefore do not trigger the achievements. There are a few that might need to be triggered directly, but not all.

And as for “it took them X time to do this,” yes, sometimes simple things take them a long time from when we recognize it as an issue until they implement them, but that doesn’t mean that they took that long in actual labor, it just means that they didn’t prioritize it. We also know that they can turn around rather significant changes in hours or days after a patch, If they deem it necessary. The shorter turnarounds are far more informative to their capabilities than the longer ones.

Ohoni.6057:

Redesigning bosses, rebalancing all rewards and drop rates, QA and playtests, relinking achievements and then maintaining 3 additional instances. It took more than 2 months to adjust a drop rate of trash items from fractal inscriptions.

QA and playtests are not development, they are handled by an entirely different unit. I’m not saying that the project would be done within hours of them picking it up, I’m saying that it wouldn’t take more than a few hours of actual developer time. I’m saying that a handful or less of developers could make the changes they need to make within a few hours, send it out for testing, moving on to other tasks, get feedback, make a few corrections that would take several more minutes, repeat as necessary, but all in all it shouldn’t take very long when compared to ANY alternative.

Also, the “redesigns” I’m talking about are very straightforward and simplistic to implement, not like some others have suggested where they actually change the scale or timing of individual elements.

Also, I described it in a way that achievements would not have to be altered significantly, if at all. They could simply make it so that the easy mode versions just do not count as the same encounters, and therefore do not trigger the achievements. There are a few that might need to be triggered directly, but not all.

And as for “it took them X time to do this,” yes, sometimes simple things take them a long time from when we recognize it as an issue until they implement them, but that doesn’t mean that they took that long in actual labor, it just means that they didn’t prioritize it. We also know that they can turn around rather significant changes in hours or days after a patch, If they deem it necessary. The shorter turnarounds are far more informative to their capabilities than the longer ones.

Gaile chastised you for doing exactly what you’re doing.

Here is the post and quote

Gaile Gray.6029:

Ohoni.6057:

Here’s one reason: The developers have limited time and resources.

Yeah, we’ve covered this one. The time and resources it would take to implement something like this would be negligible, not remotely enough to counterbalance the benefits it would bring.

At this point, I need to interject. I am familiar with the process of changing to a multi-modality system of game presentation, having written about it long ago, when I was a journalist writing about another company and another game. For that game, too, players said “No big deal.” And they were absolutely wrong. They said, “Just tweak a few stats, lower a few spawns, and voila, you’ve got it!” No, that’s not how it worked. And that’s not how I think it would work for Guild Wars 2.

I will ask about this, and if we’re prepared to say something official, one of us will do so. But it’s counterproductive to have a discussion head down the path of misinformation and what seems to be a growing error in assumption. With all due respect, unless you’re a developer for GW2 you are not qualified to make a statement about the time needed, difficulty involved, or feasibility of such a feature.

You’re welcome to discuss the situation, and we appreciate that you want to do that. We welcome the conversation! But please participate by sharing what you’d like to see, and why, and don’t be misled by individual, external assumptions about the feasibility or practicality of such a request.

We’ve also seemed to veer a bit off topic onto easy mode raids. The question is why are people do afraid of raiding. Your answer seems to be they are too hard.

Ohoni.6057:

Right, but nobody is suggesting that it should take the same number of runs, it would take several times more runs, so overall it would take a comparable amount of time. I haven’t considered it until now, but what if it ended up taking, say, 15 times as many runs, but instead of being a weekly lock-out on easy mode it was only daily, so you could do hard mode once per week, or do easy mode every day, but it would still add up to taking more weeks and more hours to run easy mode than hard mode.

You seem to misunderstand me. I’m not against them adding legendary armor in other ways, casual ways, possibly through an easy mode (again if that not interferes with future wing releases). Quite honestly I think they made a huge mistake locking legendary stuff behind a raid, because it leads to a LOT more complaining and salty comments then if there were other good rewards that didn’t have the “legendary” title.

What I’m saying is that there would be no incentive to keep doing the current difficulty because the other rewards are lackluster and drop rate is abysmal. So in order for them to give legendary armor away they would need to boost other rewards… by a lot.

It’s not even just the legendary armor, the infusion would plummet in price as well.

I want to like HoT and Raids, I really do, but the difficulty in getting a reliable group, maps opening and closing, and long, complicated event gates or chains all dissuade me.

Grinding an area with a group for specific materials is discouraged by the game design. I would love to see a map where everything is a champ and a group could find a spot to work on timing and use of combo’s and skills, or die trying.

Raids are heavily gated, linear, instanced, and rely on death traps/AoE and timers for challenge.

Still, raids and HoT open world have more challenging and deadly mobs that make it fun to play against so there is great potential that can be used.

AI is the key: mobs should counter, dodge, kite, cleanse conditions, and better prioritize which skills and opponents need an active response.

If I try to give the group a large heal, my team should expect the boss to try countering it and screen me until heal goes off.

Tanking should work similarly where team heals are required to survive and personal dps is sacrificed to hold aggro and position the target. This works in raids right now but is still under utilized.

Combo’s are also under emphasized and hard CC on break bars is less reliant on timing than I like.

Most of GW2 is casual. I am fine with that.

Please give me an optional area that is not instanced, does not have long, complicated event chains, does not close when population drops, and challenges a full group at survival. If I am going to grind, give me a spot that makes it challenging and requires team cooperation. Just one place is fine. The rest of Tyria can be casual or some complicated, gated puzzle.

Edit: I miss living world content, though it was not quite what I am looking for. LW1 had some really challenging open world events.

Gaile chastised you for doing exactly what you’re doing.

Here is the post and quote

Yes, and she still hasn’t gotten back to us with more accurate data, so my original estimate still stands.

What I’m saying is that there would be no incentive to keep doing the current difficulty because the other rewards are lackluster and drop rate is abysmal. So in order for them to give legendary armor away they would need to boost other rewards… by a lot.

If that is true then they would need to do this anyway, since Legendary armor won’t take forever to earn and once people have it, they would have no reason to raid and raids would become as much of a ghost town as dungeons. I can’t speak to the general reward level of raids, but it would need to be enough of an incentive without Legendary armor to get people to run the raid.

Yes, and she still hasn’t gotten back to us with more accurate data, so my original estimate still stands.

no, but you’ll never learn. You’re not a developper, you have no right to make assumption. What you hope / want is different from the reality of developpment needed. Don’t you think she hasn’t gotten back because people are too busy to think about your idea, which is not needed actually?

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, and she still hasn’t gotten back to us with more accurate data, so my original estimate still stands.

We went over this, your estimate is 100% meaningless. Keep trotting it around like it means something though, it’s kind of funny.

I think it would take them 2 years to implement your easier raids. It takes them a long time to create content, so it would take them a long time to recreate the raids.

Gaile hasn’t said anything to the contrary, so this estimate stands.

no, but you’ll never learn. You’re not a developper, you have no right to make assumption. What you hope / want is different from the reality of developpment needed. Don’t you think she hasn’t gotten back because people are too busy to think about your idea, which is not needed actually?

I have to assume it’s because the actual time needed is close enough to my estimates that they don’t want to say as much until they’re ready to actually confirm it’s done.

We went over this, your estimate is 100% meaningless. Keep trotting it around like it means something though, it’s kind of funny.

It’s funny because it’s true.

I think it would take them 2 years to implement your easier raids. It takes them a long time to create content, so it would take them a long time to recreate the raids.

So you’re saying that the jar contains 25,000 jellybeans. You really should understand better that this is not how reasonable estimates work. You don’t like the results of my estimate so you’re proposing ludicrous counter-estimates, that does not bolster your case, it makes you seem weak and desperate.

I have to assume it’s because the actual time needed is close enough to my estimates that they don’t want to say as much until they’re ready to actually confirm it’s done.

Wow. Keep on assuming, you’re very funny. Btw, you know the raid team and some guilds are working / testing the Last wing ? So they’re busy ^^

u know, in gw1, you unlocked things once, and the runes and armors were easily interchangeable without having to rebuild a whole new component and repurchase, craft, grind supplies for stuff – the new armor / stat / trinket system is a potato imo.

these new raid issues wouldn’t be as bad as they are now if we used that old system.
alot of things that were not broken in gw1 were “fixed” in gw2.

there was a time that upgrades, updates and expansions were something to look forward to, not dread. :/

Ricky.4706:

u know, in gw1, you unlocked things once, and the runes and armors were easily interchangeable without having to rebuild a whole new component and repurchase, craft, grind supplies for stuff – the new armor / stat / trinket system is a potato imo.

these new raid issues wouldn’t be as bad as they are now if we used that old system.
alot of things that were not broken in gw1 were “fixed” in gw2.

there was a time that upgrades, updates and expansions were something to look forward to, not dread. :/

u know in gw2, you craft your ascended once, and you can put it on different characters. Trinkets are easy to get considering all you need to do is log in and runes are generally not expensive anymore.

Ohoni.6057:

no, but you’ll never learn. You’re not a developper, you have no right to make assumption. What you hope / want is different from the reality of developpment needed. Don’t you think she hasn’t gotten back because people are too busy to think about your idea, which is not needed actually?

I have to assume it’s because the actual time needed is close enough to my estimates that they don’t want to say as much until they’re ready to actually confirm it’s done.

All right boys, you saw it here first. The numbers Ohoni pulled out of his kitten are so perfectly accurate that Anet isn’t proving them wrong because they can’t because they’re actually right.

Of course the only reason why anet wouldn’t confirm that your estimate is completely unfounded is because it’s right.

Ohoni.6057:

I think it would take them 2 years to implement your easier raids. It takes them a long time to create content, so it would take them a long time to recreate the raids.

So you’re saying that the jar contains 25,000 jellybeans. You really should understand better that this is not how reasonable estimates work. You don’t like the results of my estimate so you’re proposing ludicrous counter-estimates, that does not bolster your case, it makes you seem weak and desperate.

I can only assume that the reason why anet hasn’t gotten back about anything is because my estimate is because it’s so close to being correct that they don’t want to say as much until they can confirm it’s done.

cranos.5913:

Ricky.4706:

u know, in gw1, you unlocked things once, and the runes and armors were easily interchangeable without having to rebuild a whole new component and repurchase, craft, grind supplies for stuff – the new armor / stat / trinket system is a potato imo.

these new raid issues wouldn’t be as bad as they are now if we used that old system.
alot of things that were not broken in gw1 were “fixed” in gw2.

there was a time that upgrades, updates and expansions were something to look forward to, not dread. :/

u know in gw2, you craft your ascended once, and you can put it on different characters. Trinkets are easy to get considering all you need to do is log in and runes are generally not expensive anymore.

and how is that at all convenient for people with more than 5 different characters ?

Fermi.2409:

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, and she still hasn’t gotten back to us with more accurate data, so my original estimate still stands.

We went over this, your estimate is 100% meaningless. Keep trotting it around like it means something though, it’s kind of funny.

I think it would take them 2 years to implement your easier raids. It takes them a long time to create content, so it would take them a long time to recreate the raids.

Gaile hasn’t said anything to the contrary, so this estimate stands.

Its good then that they dont have to recreate the raids its fine tuning only.

Quasar.1756:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Quasar.1756:

Ty to all those who took the time to answer my question. Now that’s out the way, this

thread reminds me of another thread from another game…….Oh yea that’s right WoW…I

remember the casuals fighting the hardcores before the big subscription drop and then

this game offered a way out….LET’S SEE IF HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF O.O

You mean the expansion nicknamed World of Garrisoncraft? The one where the main endgame was either raid, sit in your Garrison and send out fake ships and crews for rewards or finish up the previous expansion’s content? I don’t think the comparison fits. There was a big drop in subscription numbers, but it was more due to turning an MMO into a Facebook game where max levels sat isolated in their Garrison doing their chores than an argument between casuals and elites.

No…I’m talking way before that when people complained about WoW content being

too easy and most of that community cried for more challenging content. Their wish

was granted and only 23% of those players could finish raid bosses. Due to noticable

nerfs and difficulty created by the devs, the community chastised them and qq’ed to the

point in which a dev snapped on the community and quit the game, thus leading to loss

of players and at that time this game was a way out for them…..places were ghost towns

and the only ppl playing that game at the time were the few that could actually beat the

content and even they had their “inner circle”. The only way to enjoy raiding was to be

friends with someone of that circle or have the best gear in the game…and that was not

a guarantee to remain in the group. What I speak of is the cause, what you speak of is

the effect and they had to make things easier to the point where that game was "World

of Garrison Craft" as you titled it. On a side note, I would like to thank all the players

who do take the time to run “practice” raids for the ppl who need to learn the fights.

Not saying this game is following those footsteps but some similarities are happening

atm.

Don’t let history repeat itself :/

And what we have with raids now are any diffrent how?
have to be this and that have to link prof of kill have to link gear have to link the currency bosses drop or your out.

I can only assume that the reason why anet hasn’t gotten back about anything is because my estimate is because it’s so close to being correct that they don’t want to say as much until they can confirm it’s done.

They didn’t tell you that they were looking into it like Gaile did earlier. I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make, you’re just making “I know you are but what am I” sort of arguments that don’t actually make any sense.

Fermi.2409:

I can only assume that the reason why anet hasn’t gotten back about anything is because my estimate is because it’s so close to being correct that they don’t want to say as much until they can confirm it’s done.

They haven’t “gotten back” to you because you’ve never actually asked them anything, and they have never told you they would check that up. Unlike it happened with Ohoni.
And the difference between your and Ohoni’s claims is that, while both are ridiculous estimates, yours is not only more ridiculous, but you actually know it.

There is a difference between being afraid to raid and just not wanting to raid. Raids attract the saltiest and least tolerant players in any game.

Raids are typically MMORPG time sinks. They are not challenging, just time-consuming. GW2 was originally advertised as an “anti-mmo” MMO. It’s not a surprise that it attracted many players who do not wish to raid for various reasons.

bananaman.1685:

There is a difference between being afraid to raid and just not wanting to raid. Raids attract the saltiest and least tolerant players in any game.

That may be true in other games, but I’ve yet to see it in GW2. And I pug every week. So far, only one person posted his example of raid toxicity, and it was “They asked me to change a trait,” and “They asked me if I had any other classes.”

Absurdo.8309:

bananaman.1685:

There is a difference between being afraid to raid and just not wanting to raid. Raids attract the saltiest and least tolerant players in any game.

That may be true in other games, but I’ve yet to see it in GW2. And I pug every week. So far, only one person posted his example of raid toxicity, and it was “They asked me to change a trait,” and “They asked me if I had any other classes.”

Same, I pug à lot of raids, and before HOT, a lot of fractals and dungeons, and I can assure you that Raids are much more friendly…
But indeed, if people call other toxic when asked to change something in gear, trait or utilités, there is not much one can do…

Ohoni.6057:

Gaile chastised you for doing exactly what you’re doing.

Here is the post and quote

Yes, and she still hasn’t gotten back to us with more accurate data, so my original estimate still stands.

I’m actually shocked that you are maintaining this position, when it is blatantly contrary to what she said. Here it is again.

But it’s counterproductive to have a discussion head down the path of misinformation and what seems to be a growing error in assumption. With all due respect, unless you’re a developer for GW2 you are not qualified to make a statement about the time needed, difficulty involved, or feasibility of such a feature.

… [D]on’t be misled by individual, external assumptions about the feasibility or practicality of such a request.

Basically: don’t make arguments based on the time involved to develop the feature, because you have no idea how long it would actually take.

Ricky.4706:

cranos.5913:

Ricky.4706:

u know, in gw1, you unlocked things once, and the runes and armors were easily interchangeable without having to rebuild a whole new component and repurchase, craft, grind supplies for stuff – the new armor / stat / trinket system is a potato imo.

these new raid issues wouldn’t be as bad as they are now if we used that old system.
alot of things that were not broken in gw1 were “fixed” in gw2.

there was a time that upgrades, updates and expansions were something to look forward to, not dread. :/

u know in gw2, you craft your ascended once, and you can put it on different characters. Trinkets are easy to get considering all you need to do is log in and runes are generally not expensive anymore.

and how is that at all convenient for people with more than 5 different characters ?

Swapping some weapons out is ridiculously inconvenient I’m sure. Or were you referring to the ascended armor you don’t even need?

Astralporing.1957:

That’s only what you think. Because you like raids.

No. Completing more difficult content will always be more impressive- and more difficult- then slogging through easy content for a couple weeks longer.
I don’t find them impressive at all, and don’t think that a fact that you like a certain gamemode and i don’t makes that gamemode better or any more deserving of rewards.

Were you reading Ohoni’s post, or their strawman representation by other posters? Because it seems the latter.

Fermi.2409:

Not when I’m making a reasonable estimate, which is the only thing ANY of us are capable of from outside the company. Someone with a name like “Fermi” should know that.

Except it’s impossible to make a “reasonable estimate” when you have a grand total of 0 information to base it on.

Ah, but we have considerably more than zero informations. We, for example, know that one wing takes around 4 months to make, and most of that is creating assets. Yes, those assets that the easy mode would not need to create. Most of the remaining work wouldn’t need to be created from scratch either.

Sure, it wouldn’t take hours, like Ohoni claims, but saying that it would take many months is an even more ridiculous claim.

Except, based on the information we have, they’re both completely equally valid.

Linken.6345:

Its good then that they dont have to recreate the raids its fine tuning only.

And you know that… how? Oh that’s right, you don’t.

Astralporing.1957:

hey haven’t “gotten back” to you because you’ve never actually asked them anything, and they have never told you they would check that up. Unlike it happened with Ohoni.

Ohoni isn’t some special snowflake, they’re not going to just go ahead and “get back” to him; read the quote above. Gaile never even promised any information. All she said is that she’d look into it and, if they had information that they don’t mind giving out, they’d do so.

Astralporing.1957:

And the difference between your and Ohoni’s claims is that, while both are ridiculous estimates, yours is not only more ridiculous, but you actually know it.

They’re equally ridiculous, seeing how they both have the same amount of information to back them up.

Anyways, on the whole “raids are toxic thing”, my experience has been the exact opposite. I’ve had maybe one person with a toxic/bossy/what have you attitude in a pug raid thus far and he got kicked. Most people just want to get onto TS or w/e, get the boss done, and have a decent time

Ohoni.6057:

We know how big the jar is, and we know it contains jellybeans, because, to break the analogy, it’s a game, so it obviously doesn’t contain car parts, it contains bits of a game. The jar is:
-Take The existing raid wing.
-Copy and paste it.
-Use the existing “which raid wing do you want to enter” UI to allow choice between -Spirit Vale (hard) and Spirit Vale (easy).
-Take that second one, and tweak it down a bit. Reduce boss HP by 5-10%, reduce the damage of certain “highly likely to down you” attacks by around 20% or so.
-Remove enemy skill affixes like “automatically defeats you” and replace them with “automatically downs you” or just “deals unblockable damage sufficient to down most basic builds”, perhaps reduce certain attacks from “unlimited targets” to “five targets,” allowing them to down half the party while allowing the other half to get them back up. None of these effects would be new, they could all be borrowed from existing attacks, and should be in the GW2 toolkit. Changing them should be as simple as selecting them from a drop-down menu in their toolkit, or at most deleting and retyping a reference to where that move is stored in the existing code. It’s like removing one lego brick and replacing it with another.

Gaile Gray.6029:

At this point, I need to interject. I am familiar with the process of changing to a multi-modality system of game presentation, having written about it long ago, when I was a journalist writing about another company and another game. For that game, too, players said “No big deal.” And they were absolutely wrong. They said, “Just tweak a few stats, lower a few spawns, and voila, you’ve got it!” No, that’s not how it worked. And that’s not how I think it would work for Guild Wars 2.

You have zero idea “how big the jar is”. All you have is estimates you pulled out of thin air that you, for some reason, are assuming to be correct.

Ohoni.6057:

They didn’t tell you that they were looking into it like Gaile did earlier.

Which is relevant… how? Anyways, Gaile never even promised information. What she said was:

Gaile Gray.6029:

I will ask about this, and if we’re prepared to say something official, one of us will do so.

Or, basically, we’ll give information if it’s fitting to do so. The same as the usual policy.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make, you’re just making “I know you are but what am I” sort of arguments that don’t actually make any sense.

If you can make up numbers and pretend they’re 100% accurate for the sake of your argument, I can do the exact same thing and both arguments will be equally as valid.

Fermi.2409:

No. Completing more difficult content will always be more impressive

Who are you impressing?. Do you have, like, a fan base or an audience or something? Because I play this game for me.

Impressive, effortful, deserving of better rewards.

Ohoni.6057:

An irrelevant distinction in a game. Effort expended is still effort expended, whether it’s low effort over a long time scale or high effort over a short one.

I just have to interject here for a sec. Time gated is not the same as skill gated. Changing something from a skill gate to a time gate devalues the reward as well as makes it a lot less exclusive, which devalues it even more.

This is one of those threads where, I wanted to say something when it was first made, but due to schedule problems I didn’t have the chance, and now the thread is 200 posts into nitpicking and fights. So, to respond to the OP:

munki.6402:

tl;dr Raids do not frighten me. The elitism that tends to be bred by Raiding annoys me. I have better things to do with my time.

Basically this. Though I’d like to expand a bit.

The biggest problem with raids is that there is a large series of expectations that are imposed on the player just by being a raid.

#1: You’re expected to already know the raid. The high tension encounters, multiple simultaneous mechanics, enrage timers and hard DPS requirements do not lend to a learning experience. Unless you happen to already be in a group of tryhards with a lot of free time at launch, you don’t get to “experiment”. You have to follow the strategy that was hammered out by the people before you, and if you don’t then you’re just wasting the time of everyone around you.

#2: You’re expected to have the necessary gear and class already. In the rest of the game, “meta builds” have become almost a joke, but in raids they’re the standard. You can’t bring a condi guard because you like how it plays and it works “well enough” in the open world. You need to have the gear already (including ascended weapons and trinkets) role that your class is expected to play, and if you don’t then go buy it.

#3: You’re expected to be good at the game, because failure leads to wipes. If you’re clumsy or have lag, the game isn’t going to slow down to hold you’re hand. It’s going to take the entire class out for a paddling because of the inadequacy of your performance, and nobody wants to spend their entire raid time waiting for the slow guy to “get gud”.

#4: By being the “hard” content, the raids attract players who want to show off how big their e-“manhood” is. So, any time you make a mistake in the raid, you get the full unrelenting wrath of social outcasts who have limitless free time to vent their misplaced frustration over how unpopular they are in middle school. If you’re lucky, you’ll get the guy who feels all big and awesome by “explaining” things to you, in which after you’ve been kicked for your second failure you’ll have gist of what to do, so hopefully you can lie your way into LFGs and guild runs until you have actually practiced the bosses. Basically, it attracts the second worst general playerbase in videogames overall, aside from PVPers.

#5: You also have to “know” the people already. The LFG is horrible for finding raids, so unless you’ve already got a guild for raiding or have a friends list full of people who raid, then you don’t have anyone to raid with.

You can just go and do tequatl. You can just go and do dungeons. You can just go and try fractals, too. You can’t just go and raid. You have to do in-depth research and preparation before you can even set foot in a raid, or you end up ticking off a lot of people and wasting a lot of time.

Fermi.2409:

Impressive, effortful, deserving of better rewards.

Repeating that will not make it true. In the end, the only person truly impressed by your achievements is you alone. And sometimes not even that.

Raid Leader: Guys, this raid boss is Rock. We gonna need to bring Paper. Food check! Let go.

After 30 mins of wiping

Raid Leader: Okay, this is not working. Everyone pinged weapon and chest piece so I can make sure we all have Paper.
Casual 1: [Scissors Weapon][Scissors Armor]
Raid Leader: Hey Casual 1, you are bring scissor. Do you have Paper armors/weapons or a Paper set up.
Casual 1: Well, this is how I want to play my class.
Raid Leader: It is fine if this is how you want to play your class. But we need Paper. So we gonna kick you for a actual Paper set up.

Casual 1 got kicked. Raid Leader went to LFG for a Paper set up and then proceeded to kill raid boss in 1-2 tries.

Meanwhile, Casual 1 logged on his GuildWars 2 forums and complained how toxic the raiding community is. To him, raid community is a bunch of elitist jerks, that does not appreciate his marvelous build.

Alveda.8409:

Raid Leader: Guys, this raid boss is Rock. We gonna need to bring Paper. Food check! Let go.

After 30 mins of wiping

Raid Leader: Okay, this is not working. Everyone pinged weapon and chest piece so I can make sure we all have Paper.
Casual 1: [Scissors Weapon][Scissors Armor]
Raid Leader: Hey Casual 1, you are bring scissor. Do you have Paper armors/weapons or a Paper set up.
Casual 1: Well, this is how I want to play my class.
Raid Leader: It is fine if this is how you want to play your class. But we need Paper. So we gonna kick you for a actual Paper set up.

Casual 1 got kicked. Raid Leader went to LFG for a Paper set up and then proceeded to kill raid boss in 1-2 tries.

Meanwhile, Casual 1 logged on his GuildWars 2 forums and complained how toxic the raiding community is. To him, raid community is a bunch of elitist jerks, that does not appreciate his marvelous build.

I think you have the second leader quote wrong. It is “wtf” and instakick. No explanation, or chance to correct it. Welcome to raids, where someone does not explain what they want then kicks you the instant you diverge from their version of “perfection”.

Some of the pro-raiders in this thread are demonstrating exactly the bad attitude that i’ve seen in so many other games.

A lot of people don’t raid and avoid it solely because of the hardest part of raids:

Being Social.

Yes, a lot of people struggle to get together and maintain relationships and to get 9 other people together to do a raid is a problem. On top of that you have bad attitudes and finger pointing running rampant. The people interested in raids are often after one of two things, the rewards or the challenge of an encounter. Rewards people are the group most people want to avoid to raid with, as they create a bad environment when things don’t go in the direction they hoped.

The guild I am in does runs, were constantly getting new people and running training runs with arms open and no blaming. All we require is for people to show up with exotic gear and focus on improvement. We have people that to this day never thought they would raid regularly, or even clear the first boss for that matter.

DeceiverX.8361:

I wish it was a matter of skill. That’s the thing. Raids are not at all indicative of skilled play. It’s just optimization and then executing on it. There’s not much intrinsically difficult on the personal level so much as build-dependent and so long as the raid leader knows how to order people around.

I find it pretty hard for you to judge the skill required and mechanics of raids. As a friend I’ve offered to get you in on training runs numerous times and I know for a fact you’ve yet to clear a boss.

While you are right on the snideness of elitists and how their attitude is a waste of breath, I do not agree with what you’ve said about raids not being any kind of indication of skill. People have to think for the them selves and learn individually how to deal with X mechanics that get assigned to them. It takes multiple people completing very simple tasks every phase among the chaos; its mostly just nerves and focus. Overcoming mechanics and nerves is a skill. Despite what you may think, someone can’t hold your hand and tell you what to do every second thought the raid.

Lastly, the builds and compositions are very flexible in raids. In the same note with other people you need to be flexible and bring what the team needs, a lot of people understand this. Unfortunately just as there are elitists who ruining groups because people aren’t running what they think they should be running, there are stubborn people that refuse to change things in their build to help other players in the group. Theres both sides of the coin.

Afraid ? No im not. I’m just kinda annoyed by spending tons of hours for just one successfully run.My guild fails badly at them and also its hard to set up a team for it.

So while i try to pug around , but get kicked , because im not “experienced” . Im kinda annoyed , that the game goes to “Elite and casual” players.In every MMORPG Raids was a terrible idea , because there need only be ONE person , who doesnt pay attention and everyone wipe or kitten.So yeah it’s frustating and time wasting also it force us to play as “pro” team in a “casual mmorpg” ,that slowly step to “grind” mmorpg.

I know some peoples say its fun , but i rarely get the chance to try it or never saw it succeed + i hate cheap mechanics like Instantkillaoes or “I PUNCH MASSIVE DMG” or “I PUNCH TILL YOU DIE !!!”So …. yeah after 27 tries i was kinda annoyed with a friend , even if we just played around and tried to break the defiance bar from Gorsa , but well those cheap mechanics are the “hardcore” crap , thats peoples love ^^

It waste too much time ,while i could get more money and better rewards in fractals or doing sw/Cursed shore champtrain o/

munki.6402:

Alveda.8409:

Raid Leader: Guys, this raid boss is Rock. We gonna need to bring Paper. Food check! Let go.

After 30 mins of wiping

Raid Leader: Okay, this is not working. Everyone pinged weapon and chest piece so I can make sure we all have Paper.
Casual 1: [Scissors Weapon][Scissors Armor]
Raid Leader: Hey Casual 1, you are bring scissor. Do you have Paper armors/weapons or a Paper set up.
Casual 1: Well, this is how I want to play my class.
Raid Leader: It is fine if this is how you want to play your class. But we need Paper. So we gonna kick you for a actual Paper set up.

Casual 1 got kicked. Raid Leader went to LFG for a Paper set up and then proceeded to kill raid boss in 1-2 tries.

Meanwhile, Casual 1 logged on his GuildWars 2 forums and complained how toxic the raiding community is. To him, raid community is a bunch of elitist jerks, that does not appreciate his marvelous build.

A fabulous example of elitism: Using “casual” as an insult. Thank you for affirming many of the opinions in this thread.

Why is it an insult? If you are fat, I call you fat. If you are casual, I call you casual. How is that even elitism?