Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

Blackwyn.8127:

Guild Wars 2 has always been about ‘Do what you enjoy doing’. It’s as simple as that. Play what you enjoy playing.

Exclusive rewards that are there to entice people to play the content to get them, even if they do not enjoy said content, say that this isn’t as simple as you make it.

As I said. You’re not forced to play this content. In Life you won’t get everything you want. I’d love to get a helicopter and get my own mansion in real life. But I’ve accepted the fact that this most likely will never happen and I’m perfectly fine with it.

Exclusive rewards are exclusive cause you need to do exclusive content. That’s the whole idea behind it. If you could do what you like doing the most to get this exclusive reward, then it would no longer be exclusive.
I know a few people that are not very good players. But they trained and trained for several hours for several weeks on Vale Guardian till they reached a point where they knew that fight inside out. They have accepted that they’re not good players and that the rest of the bosses are out of their skill level. Yet they keep struggling cause in the end they want the cosmetic legendary armor.

They only complete Vale Guardian and Escort each week, so that’s two insights per week. This would take them 75 weeks till they gather enough insights. But they’re determined and actually doing it. Once they gather the enough insights, they intend to buy the rest of the bosses so they can complete the full achievements.

If you’re really determined that you want this. Then work for it. Don’t expect life to hand you lemons. Go and grab the lemon, even if it means going through the most difficult path you’ve ever encountered in life.

Hello Vayne :-)) I read your posts for a long time and even if you can feel that you have sympathies for some aspects and you are less favorable to other I liked your balanced answers and the permanent attention to not go to one extreme or other.

Still, you made here a very serious affirmation and I feel that I must defend HoT even from you :-)))

Vayne.8563

It promised one raid wing and that one raid wing was delivered.

If this is true, then we can have the following:

1. HoT promised one raid wing.
2. The Armor is tied to more than one wing. Even now, after three wings the armor is not ready and the rumors states that another Raid will be needed to complete the armor.

From 1 and 2 we can have only one of the following conclusions:

a) In the moment of the HoT launch nobody in the ANet dev. team knew that the Armor will need more than one wing. That means the work at armor was not even started at that moment. That means the promise that we will have Legendary Armor in Hot was a lie. OR
b) In the moment of the launch ANet knew that the Armour will need more than one wing. And the promise to launch one wing means they never intended to put the Legendary Armor in HoT.

No matter how you look at the problem, following your affirmation that “(HoT) promised one wing and that wing was delivered” we can only conclude that the Legendary Armor was a lie from the very beginning.

In this way, I think we are a step closer to the answer of the question Why does Lege armor have to be tied to Raids?: The Armor is tied with the raids and the raids are so difficult because ANet choose to anger a lot o players with the impossibility to raid rather than to anger all the players because they cannot have a promised Armor.

With the raiders the things are simple: The propaganda of “The chosen” prepares a dictatorship. And “the chosen” , being specials, will eat any bull …. reason you throw to them if the others (the commoners) don’t agree – because they are “the chosen”. So, with them the things are simple – they will wait for the armor because, you know, they are “the chosen”.

Why to anger some of the playerbase? I think because HoT was sold when it was still an unfinished product and ANet staff knew that very well.

MO protested here on Forum to the statement that HoT was sold as an unfinished product and said that HoT fulfilled all the promises. It is true?

I think ANet tied the Armor behind the raids as a self protecting measure.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

What, and alienating every non-raider is perfectly fine? I definitely feel alienated right now. In a game that once was designed for players like me.

It still is designed for the common player.

On the contrary, by the official dev statements it is not.

Right so only people in their top tier test guilds clear raids right ?

Or are you going to ignore the fact that just because the devs “Said one thing” doesn’t mean that it was accurate. You know because the entire reason we have an LFG for raids is because its entire possible to pug raids even if it was entirely advertised that it wouldn’t be.

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

What, and alienating every non-raider is perfectly fine? I definitely feel alienated right now. In a game that once was designed for players like me.

It still is designed for the common player.

On the contrary, by the official dev statements it is not.

Right so only people in their top tier test guilds clear raids right ?

Or are you going to ignore the fact that just because the devs “Said one thing” doesn’t mean that it was accurate. You know because the entire reason we have an LFG for raids is because its entire possible to pug raids even if it was entirely advertised that it wouldn’t be.

As someone that pugs every single week. It’s a lot harder than clearing it with a designated top tier guild that knows exactly what to do and is skilled enough.
When pugging raids you’ll often end up with a mixed bag and you’ll need to learn to play different, adapt and play good enough to carry those dragging the group down.

Blackwyn.8127:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

What, and alienating every non-raider is perfectly fine? I definitely feel alienated right now. In a game that once was designed for players like me.

It still is designed for the common player.

On the contrary, by the official dev statements it is not.

Right so only people in their top tier test guilds clear raids right ?

Or are you going to ignore the fact that just because the devs “Said one thing” doesn’t mean that it was accurate. You know because the entire reason we have an LFG for raids is because its entire possible to pug raids even if it was entirely advertised that it wouldn’t be.

As someone that pugs every single week. It’s a lot harder than clearing it with a designated top tier guild that knows exactly what to do and is skilled enough.
When pugging raids you’ll often end up with a mixed bag and you’ll need to learn to play different, adapt and play good enough to carry those dragging the group down.

But clearly it is only the hardest of the hardcore that can ever clear this content!

….Case in point, the content is able to be pugged. Clearly its not just aimed at the best, or the best guilds. The whole point of the content being labeled challenging is it forcing you to learn and play differently than you otherwise would come across in the open world. It does that, it actively promotes team play and punishes lapses in judgement and awareness. However, that doesn’t mean it’s by and large and impossible feat for the common player as some would have you lead to believe.

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

What, and alienating every non-raider is perfectly fine? I definitely feel alienated right now. In a game that once was designed for players like me.

It still is designed for the common player.

On the contrary, by the official dev statements it is not.

Right so only people in their top tier test guilds clear raids right ?

Or are you going to ignore the fact that just because the devs “Said one thing” doesn’t mean that it was accurate. You know because the entire reason we have an LFG for raids is because its entire possible to pug raids even if it was entirely advertised that it wouldn’t be.

You were the one that said “designed”. No, whatever the end result, they were not made with common players in mind. And if they are a design fail in that regard, it is purely accidental and against the stated goals.

Besides, even the raid puggers are hardly representative of the common players.

TexZero.7910:

But clearly it is only the hardest of the hardcore that can ever clear this content!

Hardest of the hardcore? Not really. Above the average? Definitely. An average player is not likely to clear a raid unless they are being carried by better teammates.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

What, and alienating every non-raider is perfectly fine? I definitely feel alienated right now. In a game that once was designed for players like me.

It still is designed for the common player.

On the contrary, by the official dev statements it is not.

Right so only people in their top tier test guilds clear raids right ?

Or are you going to ignore the fact that just because the devs “Said one thing” doesn’t mean that it was accurate. You know because the entire reason we have an LFG for raids is because its entire possible to pug raids even if it was entirely advertised that it wouldn’t be.

You were the one that said “designed”. No, whatever the end result, they were not made with common players in mind. And if they are a design fail in that regard, it is purely accidental and against the stated goals.

Besides, even the raid puggers are hardly representative of the common players.

TexZero.7910:

But clearly it is only the hardest of the hardcore that can ever clear this content!

Hardest of the hardcore? Not really. Above the average? Definitely. An average player is not likely to clear a raid unless they are being carried by better teammates.

As an average player I take offence to that. I earned my kills just as everyone else through practice and a positive attitude, not by being carried.

Vayne.8563:

It promised one raid wing and that one raid wing was delivered.

Technically speaking, they did “promise” more raid by advertising it in plural form.

https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/#raids

What we have now is just only one raid with 3 wings, like we have 8 dungeons but each with several paths. We will see at least one new raid , but it might have only one wing.

Vayne.8563:

If the stuff you need from raids would be sellable on the trading post, that would be better, because the game would handle the transaction instead of having to trust your gold to a guild you may or may not know.

The issue I see with this is everything raid related should also be behind HoT, if it is on the TP then peeps without HoT will be able to buy it. If it is possible to create a filter on TP that HoT items can only be bought by HoT owners I wouldn’t see an issue. At least Arenanet would go back to it’s roots.

Anka.5086:

You don’t sound like a player who raids. But regardless of that did you look at the price for each boss? 150g/LI per boss. Good luck farming 30,000 gold.

While what you wrote down is (sort of) true, that isn’t the option most go by. It is enough to purchase every boss once (With the exception of gorseval) , then repeat escort every week and maybe trio.

Now if we count with the 150 g / boss thats 6*150 (VG,Sab,Sloth,Matt, KC, Xera) + 5 * 150 (Gorseval) all in all 1650g, but wait since every boss gives the player a Supply box on the first kill which awards 2 random something , 7 Box in total meaning 14 random stuff, which on average costs 9 g ~ 126g. Also let’s not forget the Full set of Ascended at the end of the collection, let’s calculate with 80g / piece, that’s 480g

In conclusion for 1650g you not only be able to earn any raid skin available and work towards the legendary armor , you also get back around 600 g worth of stuff , not counting with the minor stuffs like exotics and random ascendeds. If one learns Gorseval only in addition to Escort and trio that number decreases drastically.

There is a reason you see so many raid sellers, because there are a lots of people who buy it. I’d have to agree with Vayne, I see no prestige here.

Sectry.1236:

As an average player I take offence to that. I earned my kills just as everyone else through practice and a positive attitude, not by being carried.

Then, contrary to what you think, you are most likely an above average player.
(i mean, honestly, just the fact that you’re reading the boards marks you as above average. Majority of players do not frequent boards, reddit, do not read guides of any kind, and if they even use a meta build, it’s only because they happened to hear about it from a friend.)

Astralporing.1957:

Sectry.1236:

As an average player I take offence to that. I earned my kills just as everyone else through practice and a positive attitude, not by being carried.

Then, contrary to what you think, you are most likely an above average player.
(i mean, honestly, just the fact that you’re reading the boards marks you as above average. Majority of players do not frequent boards, reddit, do not read guides of any kind, and if they even use a meta build, it’s because they happened to hear about it from a friend)

What’s your metric on this? Who are you to say who is or isn’t the average Gw2 player? You are making a lot of baseless assumptions that is very condescending to a lot of people.

Erm, back on topic,

As a person who is about 99% of the time in WvW, I’d like to see the option to gain the armor there. Thanks.

I am certain that I am in a very small minority, but I would not care if legendary armor were tied to raids or any kind of content even if it eliminated the possibility of its acquisition if it had no functional difference. If it were only a skin and nothing else, who cares? That is Fashion Wars. Skins as prestige is a long-time design feature of GW2 even going back to GW1. But if legendary armor has stat-swapping like legendary weapons, that makes its functionality different and better and, as with legendary weapons, it should then be widely available just like legendary weapons are. If they change ascended armor to allow stat-swapping when legendary armor is released, then they can make legendary armor available only to a single winner of a PvP tournament for all I care. Other “casuals” may see it differently.

So basically people are salty that a prestige item is actually prestigious, rather than dirt common like the open world legendries.

This game’s entire progression system is cosmetics based. (since the devs don’t want vertical progression creep) At the end of the day some cosmetics have to be exclusive for the devs to maintain any kind of meaningful reward system.

Crinn.7864:

So basically people are salty that a prestige item is actually prestigious, rather than dirt common like the open world legendries.

This game’s entire progression system is cosmetics based. (since the devs don’t want vertical progression creep) At the end of the day some cosmetics have to be exclusive for the devs to maintain any kind of meaningful reward system.

Now you will get Astralpoling saying then it should have been a skin and not a legendary that they get as their reward…..

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

So basically people are salty that a prestige item is actually prestigious, rather than dirt common like the open world legendries.

This game’s entire progression system is cosmetics based. (since the devs don’t want vertical progression creep) At the end of the day some cosmetics have to be exclusive for the devs to maintain any kind of meaningful reward system.

Now you will get Astralpoling saying then it should have been a skin and not a legendary that they get as their reward…..

Well actually if it is just a skin and it’s supposed to be prestigious, then take it off Raids and slap it into the Gem Store with an extreme Gem value. Not many would be willing to shell out the cost if it’s super high on Gem cost.

Now in seriousness, I can’t speak for others, but I’m not asking for a freebie, or an easier way than Raids. Just an alternative way of getting the armor from content I’d rather play, like WvW.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

So basically people are salty that a prestige item is actually prestigious, rather than dirt common like the open world legendries.

This game’s entire progression system is cosmetics based. (since the devs don’t want vertical progression creep) At the end of the day some cosmetics have to be exclusive for the devs to maintain any kind of meaningful reward system.

Now you will get Astralpoling saying then it should have been a skin and not a legendary that they get as their reward…..

Well actually if it is just a skin and it’s supposed to be prestigious, then take it off Raids and slap it into the Gem Store with an extreme Gem value. Not many would be willing to shell out the cost if it’s super high on Gem cost.

Now in seriousness, I can’t speak for others, but I’m not asking for a freebie, or an easier way than Raids. Just an alternative way of getting the armor from content I’d rather play, like WvW.

Yes but sadly anything anet or we will come up with, will feel like a easier way to some raiders.

You won’t find many of the pro-raid posters arguing against implementing other sources for Legendary Armor outside of raids. That particular agreement was spoken on months ago.

The question was whether the Envoy Legendary Armor being made available, we want that kept to Forsaken Thicket. Design an alternative Legendary Armor anywhere else (WvW for instance) and much like how Legendary Backpieces have different content for accessibility, the Legendary Armor conundrum goes away.

….Well unless you want the skins, but just like 100% of this game has been, skins or rewards in general have been locked behind unique content before.

Legendary armor just for raiders…..

I guess they wanted to give the armor that WoW factor

Dashingsteel.3410:

Legendary armor just for raiders…..

I guess they wanted to give the armor that WoW factor

Seeing how Open world Pve has a monopoly on every other legendary sans 3 they can’t really complain.

They could be like WvW and not get any

Astralporing.1957:

Hardest of the hardcore? Not really. Above the average? Definitely. An average player is not likely to clear a raid unless they are being carried by better teammates.

I’m not sure if people who clear raids should take this as a compliment or those that don’t take it as an insult….

It’s beyond belief that you think this lowly about people around you in this game. Yet you want to call the raiding community and its players toxic with this kind of attitude and mindset ?

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

Hardest of the hardcore? Not really. Above the average? Definitely. An average player is not likely to clear a raid unless they are being carried by better teammates.

I’m not sure if people who clear raids should take this as a complement or those that don’t take it as an insult….

It’s beyond belief that you think this lowly about people around you in this game. Yet you want to call the raiding community and its players toxic with this kind of attitude and mindset ?

You must have missed the threads complaining that the HoT maps were too difficult and the nerf of those maps that ANet put in a few months back.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

Hardest of the hardcore? Not really. Above the average? Definitely. An average player is not likely to clear a raid unless they are being carried by better teammates.

I’m not sure if people who clear raids should take this as a complement or those that don’t take it as an insult….

It’s beyond belief that you think this lowly about people around you in this game. Yet you want to call the raiding community and its players toxic with this kind of attitude and mindset ?

You must have missed the threads complaining that the HoT maps were too difficult and the nerf of those maps that ANet put in a few months back.

Players have consistently complained about difficulty jumps since launch. Hell, I remember the QQ about Marionette mobs requiring being stomped to kill off. Yet somehow the community moved forward, should we just never raise the difficulty or challenge players ever?

Sykper.6583:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

Hardest of the hardcore? Not really. Above the average? Definitely. An average player is not likely to clear a raid unless they are being carried by better teammates.

I’m not sure if people who clear raids should take this as a complement or those that don’t take it as an insult….

It’s beyond belief that you think this lowly about people around you in this game. Yet you want to call the raiding community and its players toxic with this kind of attitude and mindset ?

You must have missed the threads complaining that the HoT maps were too difficult and the nerf of those maps that ANet put in a few months back.

Players have consistently complained about difficulty jumps since launch. Hell, I remember the QQ about Marionette mobs requiring being stomped to kill off. Yet somehow the community moved forward, should we just never raise the difficulty or challenge players ever?

That’s not at all what I was saying. Reread my post and the others as you’ve missed the point of this exchange.

It’s not whether or not players should be challenged. It’s about the skill level of the average player and whether or not the average player can clear raids. If the average player couldn’t handle the HoT maps and those maps had to be nerfed to accommodate their skill level then the average player is not going to be able to do the hardest content in the game.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Sykper.6583:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

Hardest of the hardcore? Not really. Above the average? Definitely. An average player is not likely to clear a raid unless they are being carried by better teammates.

I’m not sure if people who clear raids should take this as a complement or those that don’t take it as an insult….

It’s beyond belief that you think this lowly about people around you in this game. Yet you want to call the raiding community and its players toxic with this kind of attitude and mindset ?

You must have missed the threads complaining that the HoT maps were too difficult and the nerf of those maps that ANet put in a few months back.

Players have consistently complained about difficulty jumps since launch. Hell, I remember the QQ about Marionette mobs requiring being stomped to kill off. Yet somehow the community moved forward, should we just never raise the difficulty or challenge players ever?

That’s not at all what I was saying. Reread my post and the others as you’ve missed the point of this exchange.

It’s not whether or not players should be challenged. It’s about the skill level of the average player and whether or not the average player can clear raids. If the average player couldn’t handle the HoT maps and those maps had to be nerfed to accommodate their skill level then the average player is not going to be able to do the hardest content in the game.

I get what you’re trying to say here. But it doesn’t really hold any merit.
Players complain, alot. However, that has no bearing on their ability to overcome a challenge. Sure some will quit but i’d wager a good majority will overcome. I’d also wager that the complaints made about HoT (PvE difficulty) were largely due to an overwhelming desire to maintain the status quo(ex Cursed Shore/Southsun/Drytop/Silverwaste difficulty levels) by a very vocal minority.

Does that mean however that the same people who complain could never ever in their wildest dreams begin to attempt or clear a raid ? That’s what ludicrous about the statement made, that somehow these players are so inept that they could never do it.

TexZero.7910:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Sykper.6583:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

Hardest of the hardcore? Not really. Above the average? Definitely. An average player is not likely to clear a raid unless they are being carried by better teammates.

I’m not sure if people who clear raids should take this as a complement or those that don’t take it as an insult….

It’s beyond belief that you think this lowly about people around you in this game. Yet you want to call the raiding community and its players toxic with this kind of attitude and mindset ?

You must have missed the threads complaining that the HoT maps were too difficult and the nerf of those maps that ANet put in a few months back.

Players have consistently complained about difficulty jumps since launch. Hell, I remember the QQ about Marionette mobs requiring being stomped to kill off. Yet somehow the community moved forward, should we just never raise the difficulty or challenge players ever?

That’s not at all what I was saying. Reread my post and the others as you’ve missed the point of this exchange.

It’s not whether or not players should be challenged. It’s about the skill level of the average player and whether or not the average player can clear raids. If the average player couldn’t handle the HoT maps and those maps had to be nerfed to accommodate their skill level then the average player is not going to be able to do the hardest content in the game.

I get what you’re trying to say here. But it doesn’t really hold any merit.
Players complain, alot. However, that has no bearing on their ability to overcome a challenge. Sure some will quit but i’d wager a good majority will overcome. I’d also wager that the complaints made about HoT (PvE difficulty) were largely due to an overwhelming desire to maintain the status quo(ex Cursed Shore/Southsun/Drytop/Silverwaste difficulty levels) by a very vocal minority.

Does that mean however that the same people who complain could never ever in their wildest dreams begin to attempt or clear a raid ? That’s what ludicrous about the statement made, that somehow these players are so inept that they could never do it.

And we have the same here a very vocal minority wanting to keep legendary armor stuck behind raids becosue reasons.

if you want to keep the skin fine just make the functionality of legendary armors and a skin of its equal to openworld/fractal, spvp and wvw aswell.

Same they should make a legendary backpack for raiders and openworld.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

It’s not whether or not players should be challenged. It’s about the skill level of the average player and whether or not the average player can clear raids. If the average player couldn’t handle the HoT maps and those maps had to be nerfed to accommodate their skill level then the average player is not going to be able to do the hardest content in the game.

While there were certainly complaints about HoT map difficulty, it remains to be seen whether those posters were average players or not. Also, at least in the April changes, the nerfs consisted of reductions to certain heavy hits by some Champion mobs and a bit less mob density in some non-event areas, not blanket nerfs to HoT mobs.

What might be more telling is whether BF/EB mob armies are harder or easier. I’ve seen a few comments that they’re easier, but not the consistent complaints of “faceroll” that dogged core. I’ve also not seen lots of complaints that they’re hard, either. Maybe ANet is finding a sweet spot in open zones. Regardless, raids are meant to be harder content.

Fwiw, while I put no value on changeable stats for myself, I can see where some would. I think ANet was remiss to put LA in raids only, though the raid LA skin should remain exclusive. I don’t think raids should be more accessible, any more than high tier PvP should be. If non raiders have to wait until ANet gets around to making a different type/method f or LA, then they have to wait. It’s not like we all haven’t waited a long time for various stuff we’ve wanted ANet to produce before.

Linken.6345:

And we have the same here a very vocal minority wanting to keep legendary armor stuck behind raids becosue reasons.

if you want to keep the skin fine just make the functionality of legendary armors and a skin of its equal to openworld/fractal, spvp and wvw aswell.

Same they should make a legendary backpack for raiders and openworld.

I actually don’t care if there’s 14000 different paths to Legendary armor.

What i do care about is the people against them being a raid exclusive item (so far) complaining that they cannot get it because they don’t want to/choose not to raid, in addition to going as far as to belittle pretty much everyone that is not them. It’s tactless, baseless and ultimately pretty annoying to see self-serving complaints made under improper judgements of other players time or ability.

TexZero.7910:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Sykper.6583:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

Hardest of the hardcore? Not really. Above the average? Definitely. An average player is not likely to clear a raid unless they are being carried by better teammates.

I’m not sure if people who clear raids should take this as a complement or those that don’t take it as an insult….

It’s beyond belief that you think this lowly about people around you in this game. Yet you want to call the raiding community and its players toxic with this kind of attitude and mindset ?

You must have missed the threads complaining that the HoT maps were too difficult and the nerf of those maps that ANet put in a few months back.

Players have consistently complained about difficulty jumps since launch. Hell, I remember the QQ about Marionette mobs requiring being stomped to kill off. Yet somehow the community moved forward, should we just never raise the difficulty or challenge players ever?

That’s not at all what I was saying. Reread my post and the others as you’ve missed the point of this exchange.

It’s not whether or not players should be challenged. It’s about the skill level of the average player and whether or not the average player can clear raids. If the average player couldn’t handle the HoT maps and those maps had to be nerfed to accommodate their skill level then the average player is not going to be able to do the hardest content in the game.

I get what you’re trying to say here. But it doesn’t really hold any merit.
Players complain, alot. However, that has no bearing on their ability to overcome a challenge. Sure some will quit but i’d wager a good majority will overcome. I’d also wager that the complaints made about HoT (PvE difficulty) were largely due to an overwhelming desire to maintain the status quo(ex Cursed Shore/Southsun/Drytop/Silverwaste difficulty levels) by a very vocal minority.

Does that mean however that the same people who complain could never ever in their wildest dreams begin to attempt or clear a raid ? That’s what ludicrous about the statement made, that somehow these players are so inept that they could never do it.

Yes. Many players are “inept.” Amazingly enough the average player is…. average. Which if they were scored on a grade of A, B, C, D, or F, they are a C and after 4 years of playing they are still a C. Below them are the C-, the D and the F ability players. If raids are for the B and A level players then C level is going to struggle and D and F players don’t have a prayer of getting it without being carried. Remember, the C, D, and F players are half of the population. People who do raids are B level at worse.

I consider myself to be ~C+/B- and I know I personally would not be able to do raids (which is fine for me as I have no interest in either raids or the armor. I’m just arguing here that the opinion that everyone can do raids is not an opinion that fits the facts).

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Yes. Many players are “inept.” Amazingly enough the average player is…. average. Which if they were scored on a grade of A, B, C, D, or F, they are a C and after 4 years of playing they are still a C. Below them are the C-, the D and the F ability players. If raids are for the B and A level players then C level is going to struggle and D and F players don’t have a prayer of getting it without being carried. Remember, the C, D, and F players are half of the population. People who do raids are B level at worse.

I consider myself to be ~C+/B- and I know I personally would not be able to do raids (which is fine for me as I have no interest in either raids or the armor. I’m just arguing here that the opinion that everyone can do raids is not an opinion that fits the facts).

What facts here, that you feel half the population is a C player or lower ? That’s not a fact, that’s an arbitrary assignment.

The only fact of this is that, if you want to play the game, and do the mode you can. If you want to improve you can. The sheer fact that you there’s this notion that a vast majority of the player base is somehow inept is absurd.

TexZero.7910:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Yes. Many players are “inept.” Amazingly enough the average player is…. average. Which if they were scored on a grade of A, B, C, D, or F, they are a C and after 4 years of playing they are still a C. Below them are the C-, the D and the F ability players. If raids are for the B and A level players then C level is going to struggle and D and F players don’t have a prayer of getting it without being carried. Remember, the C, D, and F players are half of the population. People who do raids are B level at worse.

I consider myself to be ~C+/B- and I know I personally would not be able to do raids (which is fine for me as I have no interest in either raids or the armor. I’m just arguing here that the opinion that everyone can do raids is not an opinion that fits the facts).

What facts here, that you feel half the population is a C player or lower ? That’s not a fact, that’s an arbitrary assignment.

The only fact of this is that, if you want to play the game, and do the mode you can. If you want to improve you can. The sheer fact that you there’s this notion that a vast majority of the player base is somehow inept is absurd.

No. That’s simple math and statistics. The average player is average, which is a C. Half of any population is average or below average, and that includes this population. I suggest you read up on statistics if you believe that the population is above average as that’s logically impossible. Half of any population is average or below average. That’s a mathematical truth and this population is not exempt. If content is deliberately designed by the Devs for the above average part of this population then the average and below average are going to struggle or not be able to do it.

And no, willpower and wanting does not conquer all. I suggest you think about that one too.

Asa.3602:

Legendary armor is meant to reward players for doing the most challenging content, which is raid. Your question is like asking why is legendary backpiece tied to fractal and pvp. Ofc they want to reward the people who do those content, and to prompt players to step out of their comfort zone. In the end legendary armor is just a fashion icon like everything else endgame in gw2, so being exclusive is actually a good thing.

Said every Raider since EQ1 launch.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

TexZero.7910:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Yes. Many players are “inept.” Amazingly enough the average player is…. average. Which if they were scored on a grade of A, B, C, D, or F, they are a C and after 4 years of playing they are still a C. Below them are the C-, the D and the F ability players. If raids are for the B and A level players then C level is going to struggle and D and F players don’t have a prayer of getting it without being carried. Remember, the C, D, and F players are half of the population. People who do raids are B level at worse.

I consider myself to be ~C+/B- and I know I personally would not be able to do raids (which is fine for me as I have no interest in either raids or the armor. I’m just arguing here that the opinion that everyone can do raids is not an opinion that fits the facts).

What facts here, that you feel half the population is a C player or lower ? That’s not a fact, that’s an arbitrary assignment.

The only fact of this is that, if you want to play the game, and do the mode you can. If you want to improve you can. The sheer fact that you there’s this notion that a vast majority of the player base is somehow inept is absurd.

No. That’s simple math and statistics. The average player is average, which is a C. Half of any population is average or below average, and that includes this population. I suggest you read up on statistics if you believe that the population is above average as that’s logically impossible. Half of any population is average or below average. That’s a mathematical truth and this population is not exempt. If content is deliberately designed by the Devs for the above average part of this population then the average and below average are going to struggle or not be able to do it.

And no, willpower and wanting does not conquer all. I suggest you think about that one too.

Compare the average player’s skill level now to Heart of Thorns Launch. Compare it to a year before that. Compare it to launch.

It’s very easy to know what you want to drive the argument at, but there are some major flaws with that perspective. One is that it proposes that the average player will always stay average, always. That’s unlikely, the more they play and experience the more they will learn and potentially grow. I am absolutely certain the raid content wasn’t marketed at average players, but even average players can get out of their current status with time. I suggest you rethink player personal growth.

There’s also another, very easy method which Arenanet has implemented to facilitate this player growth, the simple fact of the increasing difficult content. Open World HoT did get nerfed, but even in its current nerfed state the entire region is still the most challenging open world, mobs that force you to keep alert and change your strategies. You aren’t immortal even in a zerg, you can see the design differences between HoT and entertainingly enough the Halloween Labyrinth where some of the Halloween bosses would be brutal (Especially Lich).

Riddle me this, what happens when the average player is above average compared to a year ago, but is still average by the statistics?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

TexZero.7910:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Yes. Many players are “inept.” Amazingly enough the average player is…. average. Which if they were scored on a grade of A, B, C, D, or F, they are a C and after 4 years of playing they are still a C. Below them are the C-, the D and the F ability players. If raids are for the B and A level players then C level is going to struggle and D and F players don’t have a prayer of getting it without being carried. Remember, the C, D, and F players are half of the population. People who do raids are B level at worse.

I consider myself to be ~C+/B- and I know I personally would not be able to do raids (which is fine for me as I have no interest in either raids or the armor. I’m just arguing here that the opinion that everyone can do raids is not an opinion that fits the facts).

What facts here, that you feel half the population is a C player or lower ? That’s not a fact, that’s an arbitrary assignment.

The only fact of this is that, if you want to play the game, and do the mode you can. If you want to improve you can. The sheer fact that you there’s this notion that a vast majority of the player base is somehow inept is absurd.

No. That’s simple math and statistics. The average player is average, which is a C. Half of any population is average or below average, and that includes this population. I suggest you read up on statistics if you believe that the population is above average as that’s logically impossible. Half of any population is average or below average. That’s a mathematical truth and this population is not exempt. If content is deliberately designed by the Devs for the above average part of this population then the average and below average are going to struggle or not be able to do it.

And no, willpower and wanting does not conquer all. I suggest you think about that one too.

Actually, in the wonderful world of averages you can have almost everyone being above average.

Example: 1 million people score 10/10 on a test, 1 person scores 1/10. The average score is a little under 10/10. 99.9999% of people scored above average.

That’s why you should never trust statistics.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

It’s not whether or not players should be challenged. It’s about the skill level of the average player and whether or not the average player can clear raids. If the average player couldn’t handle the HoT maps and those maps had to be nerfed to accommodate their skill level then the average player is not going to be able to do the hardest content in the game.

While there were certainly complaints about HoT map difficulty, it remains to be seen whether those posters were average players or not. Also, at least in the April changes, the nerfs consisted of reductions to certain heavy hits by some Champion mobs and a bit less mob density in some non-event areas, not blanket nerfs to HoT mobs.

What might be more telling is whether BF/EB mob armies are harder or easier. I’ve seen a few comments that they’re easier, but not the consistent complaints of “faceroll” that dogged core. I’ve also not seen lots of complaints that they’re hard, either. Maybe ANet is finding a sweet spot in open zones. Regardless, raids are meant to be harder content.

Fwiw, while I put no value on changeable stats for myself, I can see where some would. I think ANet was remiss to put LA in raids only, though the raid LA skin should remain exclusive. I don’t think raids should be more accessible, any more than high tier PvP should be. If non raiders have to wait until ANet gets around to making a different type/method f or LA, then they have to wait. It’s not like we all haven’t waited a long time for various stuff we’ve wanted ANet to produce before.

You’re right in some particulars but you missed some others. There were nerfs prior to the April patch particularly to hero points. Some hero points were turned from champs to vets, some were turned to communes.

In addition to that, some events in the April patch were added that didn’t exist before, like a multitude of veteran vine wraths, where most people could do them. Also wandering champs like the champ troll in VB and the champ terragriff became Vets in the April patch, which went from we need a huge group to anyone with a modicum of skill could solo this.

Anet made a number of small changes that overall made everything feel easier.

I think that Legendary Armor being tied with the Raids is a skillful example of players manipulation from ANet’s part.

The main issue here is not why the Armor is tied with something, but Why after one year from the launch the promised Armor is not ingame?

By hiding the armor behind the Raids ANet switched the focus from the real question (and implicit from the real responsible entity for this) to a false problem – the problem we are debating here. In this way the responsible is not ANet by not fulfilling a promise but the players – who are lazy, unable to learn, average or underaverage.

And it seems that even some ANet workers failed for this diversion: Remember the “gid gud” coming from an ANet worker? That means even they considers is your fault.
- You barely can see the monitor and the colors? “Gid gud !”
- You have problems impairing your hand mobility? “Lazy slacker – train yourself more ingame. Without dedication you cannot achieve something you already paid for. Gid Gud!”
- You have attention issues preventing you for a long duration focus on the same thing? “Time changes! This is no more GW2 for the average (underaverage) persons. Gid Gud!”

This is. In the moment we will stop arguing about a false problem and we will start asking ANet about their responsibility, the things will start to change.

Until then, ANet successfully diverted our attention from the main problem. Still, the price is that a lot of players are angry now. We will see in the future if this is a right price for the time bought in this way by ANet.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

TexZero.7910:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Yes. Many players are “inept.” Amazingly enough the average player is…. average. Which if they were scored on a grade of A, B, C, D, or F, they are a C and after 4 years of playing they are still a C. Below them are the C-, the D and the F ability players. If raids are for the B and A level players then C level is going to struggle and D and F players don’t have a prayer of getting it without being carried. Remember, the C, D, and F players are half of the population. People who do raids are B level at worse.

I consider myself to be ~C+/B- and I know I personally would not be able to do raids (which is fine for me as I have no interest in either raids or the armor. I’m just arguing here that the opinion that everyone can do raids is not an opinion that fits the facts).

What facts here, that you feel half the population is a C player or lower ? That’s not a fact, that’s an arbitrary assignment.

The only fact of this is that, if you want to play the game, and do the mode you can. If you want to improve you can. The sheer fact that you there’s this notion that a vast majority of the player base is somehow inept is absurd.

No. That’s simple math and statistics. The average player is average, which is a C. Half of any population is average or below average, and that includes this population. I suggest you read up on statistics if you believe that the population is above average as that’s logically impossible. Half of any population is average or below average. That’s a mathematical truth and this population is not exempt. If content is deliberately designed by the Devs for the above average part of this population then the average and below average are going to struggle or not be able to do it.

And no, willpower and wanting does not conquer all. I suggest you think about that one too.

Someone already beat me to the obvious reason why your stats are bunk…..But you really should stop with the assumption that just because some players refuse to do content or don’t complete content that it makes them a sub-par or inept player. That’s just a sad statement on how people view eachothers value in this game. As if to say no one is capable of whatever caste of players they view themselves a part of.

Cristalyan.5728:

Still, the price is that a lot of players are angry now.

More like a lot of players are indifferent. If a lot of players would be angry then we would see merged 10 pages/day megathreads about this and not a couple of half dead threads filled with the same people copypasting the same things over and over.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Cristalyan.5728:

Still, the price is that a lot of players are angry now.

More like a lot of players are indifferent. If a lot of players would be angry then we would see merged 10 pages/day megathreads about this and not a couple of half dead threads filled with the same people copypasting the same things over and over.

Agreed.
I personally will be taking the ‘Wait and see’ position until more information is released.
We all know things change at the last minute around here

Or perhaps a lot of posters think Anet won’t change their mind about and don’t bother posting. I nearly didn’t myself.

Also for those saying they can just add other Legendary armor to other gameplay modes, you and I both know they won’t do that. The amount of time and resources was apparently already to great just for a single set, let alone 2 more and then x 3 it.

Anka.5086:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Gold needed does not equal difficulty.

Pvp back piece is no longer obtainable, you can still get The Pve backpiece.

Again Gold does not equal difficulty!

And the pvp player has to learn how to play against players to get wins to advance to get the backpiece within a very short time window unlike the Pve player who can incrementally get there’s all day every day

‘’All day every day’’
Wow! I can’t believe you dont see the irony in what you just said. You must be irony deficient. Realistically speaking, you can pass the first two divisions in PvP under 1 day because you can play ‘all day every day’. I know this because I’ve done it. And I’m less than average skilled PvP player. If I can perform this veteran PvP players can do this at 10x the speed.

Learn how to play against players? All you have to do is cap points and win match. Is that what you’re talking about? Even ANET’s recently announced that there are surprisingly low skilled players in legendary division and that’s why they decided to limit match making to solo and duo only. Get your head out of the sand.

I can’t believe you’re insinuating that PvE is a walk in the park. Haha. Cute PvP player. However, I will say this; PvE skill curve inclination is high at first and then once it reaches certain point it remains at that level until new PvE challenges are introduced and then it requires you to improve your skills again. Whereas, PvP skill curve is low at first and then continuously goes up because remaining at that skill level requires players to vigorously improve their own gameplay and team cooperation. Just to clear things up, I wasn’t suggesting that overall PvP game is easy. The point I was trying to make is acquiring legendary items in PvP gameplay will be very linear. Kill this, kill that, play this play that, reach this tier. PvE legendary backpiece forces you to go on an adventure all across tyria and pull resources from as much diverse events as possible. But in PvP this will never be possible. Legendary backpiece is a good example.

Don’t get me wrong, I actually enjoy doing all those PvE achievements to get my legendary items. It makes this game come alive and makes it feel everything in the game matters. But the point is PvE players have so much barriers to overcome. Whereas, the same thing can’t be said about PvP players. Case in point PvP legendary backpiece, you can start working towards it on day1 of buying your account. Gold is not the point here. It’s the barriers that PvE players needs to overcome just to get to start line. If PvP players get the same amount of barriers than it will be fair playing field. And I wouldn’t really mind. But I don’t think that’s possible in PvP because it’s a linear game mode and there isn’t much there for devs to design something that is as diverse PvE legendary missions. We can see that in PvP legendary backpiece missions. It’s nowhere near as diverse as PvE backpiece.

yeah he means you can take as long as you want with the pve backpiece. obviously not so much with a timegated item like the pvp backpiece or wvw tournament weapons. ironic how that was lost on you.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Cristalyan.5728:

Still, the price is that a lot of players are angry now.

More like a lot of players are indifferent. If a lot of players would be angry then we would see merged 10 pages/day megathreads about this and not a couple of half dead threads filled with the same people copypasting the same things over and over.

Possible, but: Some/many people just shrugged, reiterated: The fabulous nov. 15.th update told us to stay away – This feature/direction reminds us we should have listened in the first place.

Next Q financial statement will tell us just how successful this path have been.
(I do predict a lot of “explanations” )

Cristalyan.5728:

I think that Legendary Armor being tied with the Raids is a skillful example of players manipulation from ANet’s part.

The main issue here is not why the Armor is tied with something, but Why after one year from the launch the promised Armor is not ingame?

By hiding the armor behind the Raids ANet switched the focus from the real question (and implicit from the real responsible entity for this) to a false problem – the problem we are debating here. In this way the responsible is not ANet by not fulfilling a promise but the players – who are lazy, unable to learn, average or underaverage.

And it seems that even some ANet workers failed for this diversion: Remember the “gid gud” coming from an ANet worker? That means even they considers is your fault.
- You barely can see the monitor and the colors? “Gid gud !”
- You have problems impairing your hand mobility? “Lazy slacker – train yourself more ingame. Without dedication you cannot achieve something you already paid for. Gid Gud!”
- You have attention issues preventing you for a long duration focus on the same thing? “Time changes! This is no more GW2 for the average (underaverage) persons. Gid Gud!”

This is. In the moment we will stop arguing about a false problem and we will start asking ANet about their responsibility, the things will start to change.

Until then, ANet successfully diverted our attention from the main problem. Still, the price is that a lot of players are angry now. We will see in the future if this is a right price for the time bought in this way by ANet.

Or we could take off the tinfoil and realize that the delay is likely caused by Anet having to divert resources into developing Living World content in addition to whatever early development they are doing on the next expac.

I’ve played a lot of games and honestly i never thought i was entitled to anything besides the game, almost everywhere there are rewards that require some kind of grind or challenge. In the case of legendary armor, it requires both.

There are those that are not interested in legendary armor or they won’t sucrifice their own game experience for it and those that want it and work at it.

And then there are those that want it but dont wanna go through the effort so they bring up “entitlements”. “I’m entitled to leg armor cause i paid for this game”.
Legendary armor is meant to be exclusive just like pvp backpiece so u either play the respective game mode or you can pass it by.
No1 is entitled to any reward, that’s what a reward is.

Oh, here we go with the entitlement accusation again…..

If anyone is to be accused of entitlement, it should be those who complained to developers that there wasn’t enough hard content in gw2. These entitled gamers felt that the expansion(HoT) should cater to them. They are the ones who called for changes to the game to fit their gaming experience.

It was pretty transparent that hard content was not what they were really after. They wanted exclusivity. How dare a scrub have the same skin as me!!! So the entitlement argument is laughable……

Dashingsteel.3410:

Oh, here we go with the entitlement accusation again…..

If anyone is to be accused of entitlement, it should be those who complained to developers that there wasn’t enough hard content in gw2. These entitled gamers felt that the expansion(HoT) should cater to them. They are the ones who called for changes to the game to fit their gaming experience.

It was pretty transparent that hard content was not what they were really after. They wanted exclusivity. How dare a scrub have the same skin as me!!! So the entitlement argument is laughable……

I didnt ask for anything, i didnt even care about raids tbh. I just started raiding cause i found it fun, i would keep on raiding even without leg armor on the horizon. The exclusivity of the armor is plain fair for the effort and time invested though.
Was Anet after hard content or exclusivity? If u actually raid in this game then u know what’s what, otherwise u are just taking guesses.

I don’t really care about the legendary armor. It is ugly in my personal opinion. Seeing as you can get legendary weapons by doing anything(they can be bought off the trad post so they are not locked to one game type, only the crafting is).i think you should have to play a little of all game modes to get it.

Personally I don’t have time to raid, and I never liked raids in other MMO’s. As I said I don’t care about the armoe, but I do think there should be more options to get it.

The only reason legendary armor is tied to raids is to get people in to the raids. I’m willing to bet, with out the armor, raids would not be that popular. The only reason people did dungeons was because they where the fastest way to get gold. Look what happened to dungeons when HoT launched. The gold Nerf killed them. Give a way to get the armor another way, watch raids die. It will never happen. Raids are the new thing. They will probably be what will kill fractals, like fractals killed dungeons.

I’d be fine with them once the current legendary armor has been out and completable for about 6 months if they start releasing information or the steps to make a different set of legendary armor that didn’t require a lot of raiding, if any at all. Like HoT came with new legendary weapons, we should get new legendary armor tied to other things in the future.

Crinn.7864:

Cristalyan.5728:

I think that Legendary Armor being tied with the Raids is a skillful example of players manipulation from ANet’s part.

The main issue here is not why the Armor is tied with something, but Why after one year from the launch the promised Armor is not ingame?

Or we could take off the tinfoil and realize that the delay is likely caused by Anet having to divert resources into developing Living World content in addition to whatever early development they are doing on the next expac.

So the thing that should have been ready for the last expansion is delayed because now they need the resources for the next expansion? Sounds funny

Tekey.7946:

Crinn.7864:

Cristalyan.5728:

I think that Legendary Armor being tied with the Raids is a skillful example of players manipulation from ANet’s part.

The main issue here is not why the Armor is tied with something, but Why after one year from the launch the promised Armor is not ingame?

Or we could take off the tinfoil and realize that the delay is likely caused by Anet having to divert resources into developing Living World content in addition to whatever early development they are doing on the next expac.

So the thing that should have been ready for the last expansion is delayed because now they need the resources for the next expansion? Sounds funny

Only a minority of players want legendary weapons. Most players want new content to play.

Living Story adds new content.

When ANet realized that they may end up losing more players by not shifting focus to the Living Story than they would keep by focusing on the legendary weapons, they changed gears.

They had to choose between two evils. Neither choice was a good one. So they had to choose the one that impacted the game negatively the least.

Seera.5916:

Tekey.7946:

Crinn.7864:

Cristalyan.5728:

I think that Legendary Armor being tied with the Raids is a skillful example of players manipulation from ANet’s part.

The main issue here is not why the Armor is tied with something, but Why after one year from the launch the promised Armor is not ingame?

Or we could take off the tinfoil and realize that the delay is likely caused by Anet having to divert resources into developing Living World content in addition to whatever early development they are doing on the next expac.

So the thing that should have been ready for the last expansion is delayed because now they need the resources for the next expansion? Sounds funny

Only a minority of players want legendary weapons. Most players want new content to play.

Living Story adds new content.

When ANet realized that they may end up losing more players by not shifting focus to the Living Story than they would keep by focusing on the legendary weapons, they changed gears.

They had to choose between two evils. Neither choice was a good one. So they had to choose the one that impacted the game negatively the least.

There’s been 9 months from Living World season 2 to HoT. After that, there’s been another 9 months from HoT to the start of Living World Season 3.

They are still working on the content of HoT, yet they started working on the next expansion and that should justify that parts of HoT are delayed again? They knew that HoT contains the next season of the Living World, but apparently they didn’t plan ahead.

Doesn’t look good if you think of the next expansions.. I know, there’s a dedicated expansion team now, but Anet is constantly working at full capacity – yet that’s not enough to reach their goals.