Guild Wars 2

With all of the redundant posts on this forum regarding elite specializations being gated behind a heap of prerequisite hero points, I thought it would be fun to play devil’s advocate. Ultimately, I think the issue isn’t the number of points required to unlock them, but the nature of how difficult the HoT hero challenges are.

Here’s why I believe the hero point requirement should not be changed:

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.
2) It’s an elite spec – it shouldn’t be cheap by its nature.
3) It incentivizes map completion and/or WvW participation.
4) You don’t need the entire line unlocked for it to be used (or even useful).
5) Keeping them character bound keeps it in line with non-elite specs.

Most of the complaints I’ve seen about the hero point requirements seem to come from our culture of entitlement (I should get it now – or at least sooner – because I want it now).

That all said, I do think there is a HUGE problem with the fact that it’s almost impossible (or in some cases very difficult) to solo the hero challenges in the new zones. If someone is serious about unlocking their elite specialization, they should be able to do it with or without their friends and guildies.

They are just called “elite”. There is nothing elite about them. They are on par with any other profession. This isn’t character progression at all. Using the word “elite” gives the illusion that you are working for something that will better you character. These elite traitlines and utilities should cost the same as normal traitlines and utilities.

1) No one’s claimed that you need it. Please find a link of someone claiming otherwise.

2) So how elite is your elite skill? How hard did you have to work for that? I don’t recall working any harder for my elite skill than my non-elite skills. So please find another reason or ask ANet to make it as hard to get your elite skill fully unlocked as it is for the elite spec.

3) Not everyone enjoys map exploration or WvW. Why should those players be forced to fully explore PvE or rank up 200 hundred times in WvW per character before they can go do what they prefer to do?

4) People are fully aware of that. Players just want to test the elite spec with it fully unlocked. So they can play with builds. So they can go into WvW or dungeons or fractals with their elite active and not feel like their hurting their group mates with an incomplete build.

5) This is the only point where you seem to grasp what the majority is asking for.

Most are NOT asking for it to be given to them yesterday. They are just asking for it to be made less time intensive and/or easier to do solo so that they can explore the new content in the order that THEY wish to go in.

Some players wanted to test the elite specs fully unlocked in Central Tyria before really exploring Heart of Maguuma fully or diving too much into the masteries. But ANet’s taken that away from players. You have to explore all of the maps to find all of the hero challenges. You have to do a fair amount in the masteries in order to get the hero points.

1) But I and many people paid precisely to do that.
2) But I paid real money for it.
3) But I want to complete the maps with the elite spec. What should I do once I have it fully unlocked? Stand around and not caring for anything because I already did it?
4) The new content is designed to be harder than the core game, so switching a barely useful traitline with one that is not only fully leveled but also complementing my current build and available skills is nonsense. Of course people can technically use them, but you could also technically walk to work instead of drinving your car.
5) That point I do not even care about.

It is a problem: people want to play the new classes, but instead of being able to do that and concentrate on the fun aspects of the game (story, new maps, events) they are forced to rush through, ruining every bit of exploration and immersion. I never expected to have my elite spec unlocked instantly, but through some kind of story or sidequest near the beginning of the new content. Needing 400 hero points, with 60 of them only just unlocking the ability to use a new weapon, is just to kitten much for something I and many other people paid 50 bucks to play as.

Oh? New weapon + a handful of new skills = elite thus should have astronomical costs? As pretty as the maps are, the expansion largely comes down to hopping around on platforms with pretty much the same skills and weapons you had three years ago to stack up the XP in specific zones so you can keep hopping around on platforms in said zones, hoping and praying that you can interact with something that may or may not be out of reach. It’s great, provided that you like hopping around on platforms and hoping and praying. For me that’s just stretching content with time gated features.

Dashingsteel.3410:

They are just called “elite”. There is nothing elite about them. They are on par with any other profession. This isn’t character progression at all. Using the word “elite” gives the illusion that you are working for something that will better you character. These elite traitlines and utilities should cost the same as normal traitlines and utilities.

I think you’re getting specialisations and professions mixed up.
They are “elite” because they give you access to an extra weapon, a different or additional class mechanic and 5 new skills. The other specialisations (the other traitlines) don’t do this.

They give you a weapon and new class mechanic but they are not elite compared to the regular professions. This is just an alternate playstyle. It shouldn’t cost more.

Chipofsalt.4673:

With all of the redundant posts on this forum regarding elite specializations being gated behind a heap of prerequisite hero points, I thought it would be fun to play devil’s advocate. Ultimately, I think the issue isn’t the number of points required to unlock them, but the nature of how difficult the HoT hero challenges are.

Here’s why I believe the hero point requirement should not be changed:

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.
2) It’s an elite spec – it shouldn’t be cheap by its nature.
3) It incentivizes map completion and/or WvW participation.
4) You don’t need the entire line unlocked for it to be used (or even useful).
5) Keeping them character bound keeps it in line with non-elite specs.

Most of the complaints I’ve seen about the hero point requirements seem to come from our culture of entitlement (I should get it now – or at least sooner – because I want it now).

That all said, I do think there is a HUGE problem with the fact that it’s almost impossible (or in some cases very difficult) to solo the hero challenges in the new zones. If someone is serious about unlocking their elite specialization, they should be able to do it with or without their friends and guildies.

Running around with a partial spec bs these mobs is bad

It wasn’t cheap cost me 60$

Fun should be my incemtive.

Chipofsalt.4673:

With all of the redundant posts on this forum regarding elite specializations being gated behind a heap of prerequisite hero points, I thought it would be fun to play devil’s advocate. Ultimately, I think the issue isn’t the number of points required to unlock them, but the nature of how difficult the HoT hero challenges are.

Here’s why I believe the hero point requirement should not be changed:

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.
2) It’s an elite spec – it shouldn’t be cheap by its nature.
3) It incentivizes map completion and/or WvW participation.
4) You don’t need the entire line unlocked for it to be used (or even useful).
5) Keeping them character bound keeps it in line with non-elite specs.

Most of the complaints I’ve seen about the hero point requirements seem to come from our culture of entitlement (I should get it now – or at least sooner – because I want it now).

That all said, I do think there is a HUGE problem with the fact that it’s almost impossible (or in some cases very difficult) to solo the hero challenges in the new zones. If someone is serious about unlocking their elite specialization, they should be able to do it with or without their friends and guildies.

1) Need is an interesting choice of wording. People don’t need to buy the expansion. They do so, presumably, because they want it. Just as many people want the elite specs.

2) elite is being used as a proper noun here. The word elite means superior. The devs have stated that the elite specs are not supposed to be superior to normal specs. So, the elite specs are not supposed to actually be elite. If they are not superior to baseline specs then it is perhaps off for them to cost more.

3) There may be a problem with content if it is not fun to complete without bribes, but such is the norm in MMOs.

4) As soon as you equip an elite spec initially you have lowered your total power level. Elite specs are character regression. You then, of course, have the option to work toward returning to where you started in terms of power.

5) I agree with them being character bound.

Chipofsalt.4673:

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.

Issues isn’t playing through HoT, people want to experience all the new content with the elite specizalation.

2) It’s an elite spec – it shouldn’t be cheap by its nature.

Elite specs are not elite in any way shape or form, they are just another way to play an existing class so they should be cheap

3) It incentivizes map completion and/or WvW participation.

Same as number 1. I want to do 100% map completion and explore and do the HP’s. I just want to do then on elite spec but can’t as they are all done before it’s unlocked

4) You don’t need the entire line unlocked for it to be used (or even useful).

In most cases depends on the build, for example herald where you can ONLY use the skills from glint

5) Keeping them character bound keeps it in line with non-elite specs.

I don’t get it?

Chipofsalt.4673:

…
1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.
.

Clipped everything else from your post because really everything else you say is just to support 1. No one is going to disagree with you. We don’t need our elite specialization to play thoug HoT. It comes down to the majority feeling the Elite Specialization should be something we can enjoy the new content with and play though vs receiving it as an end-game award. The Elite Specialization is irrational as an end-game reward because the Elite Specialization introduces a new play mechanic that’s exclusive to Heart of Thorns. Unique items, skins, etc… make sense are end-game rewards a new play mechanic makes absolutely no sense as a end-game reward. It’s beyond irrational, it’s asinine and horrible design by any game design theory you want to apply.

Given the overwelming anger over this many of us have requested ArenaNet provide some rational as to why they have provided unique play mechanics for each class and then have decided to make locked down until end of game. They have elected not to address this question.

I believe they are avoiding the direct question regarding them being end-game rewards, because they know how irrational this design is. Everyone makes mistakes. Just like gating the story chapters with mastery level was a mistake which they realized and change so is the Elite Specialization unlock. The Elite Specialization unlock implementation a MUCH BIGGER mistake because it takes the aspect of the expansion many of us were looking most forward to obtaining and makes it impossible to play the game with that. It’s not acceptable design. It would at least be nice if ArenaNet would address the community and discuss their rational for the design, but they won’t.

I see the design as an implementation put in place to funnel players to the gem store store for boost items over the next month. It’s likely a strategy for raising profits for the quarter earning report and maximizing the utility of the expansion’s release to achieve that goal. Thinking about it, that is the only rational I can come up with and it’s a really back handed thing to do to your player base if that is in fact what’s going on with it. If they continue to stay silent about it and then a few months down the road it changes we’ll have our answer.

It’s not about what we need and don’t need, it comes down to core game features that alter the play mechanic and add fun/value to the content we were paying for. It comes down to common sense game design decisions regarding what to provide as a reward and when to award it. The arguments come down to a certain group of players who’ve lost the last three days of their lives rushing though the entire expanshion who want to come to forums and scream to the community “I don’t see what the big deal is” or “I love it as it’s implemented because now for rushing the expanshion I get to be the one of a handful of Chronomasters, Druids, etc.. on my server”. Pathetic.

Suggestion to more casual players
Give it so some time and perhaps give the PvE side of the game a rest for now. You can unlock hero points in WvW and you can play with your full Elite Spec in sPvP. There are options to enjoy aspects of the game while the PvE side gets flushed out. If some of these things were implemented to maximize gem store purchase at launch they will eventually change. While I think ArenaNet should address the Elite Specialization unlock questions if it is because of revenue never forget that we get ot play each month for free. So ultimately even if this is a tactic to generate revenue don’t hate on them too until it proves to be long term

I don’t even have HoT and this saddens me, To those who just wanna rush through the game, A big “Oh Well” to you. :^)

For my second point – a lot of you are arguing about the “elite” wording that Anet used when defining the new specialization content. The new specializations unlock not only a new trait line, but they also unlock a new weapon and spec specific utilities. As a comparison, add the cost for an entire trait line for the revenant and add it to the cost for the corresponding utilities. When you compare this value to that of the elite spec, it isn’t too monstrously outrageous as many of you are hyperbolizing.

So my original question remains unanswered for this point: Why should they be cheap (that is, how would making them cheaper positively impact the game and its mechanics?)? “Because I paid for it” is not an answer.

A lot of your other answers (specifically to my first and third points) are reiterating something I already wrote. People believe they are entitled to having their elite specialization from the get-go, and are complaining they need to work to unlock it. My belief that they should be worked towards comes from a traditional MMO/JRPG background. This is a matter of interpretation, which is why this concept is so debated right now on the forums.

I understand that people feel betrayed that Anet is moving away from catering to casuals (as was their vanilla GW2 mantra), but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. HoT is certainly catering more towards the hardcore group with this new release.

Will they change the cost for elite specs? Probably not too soon. It wouldn’t be too surprising to see hero points for HoT be made easier so they can be soloed though.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

It comes down to the majority feeling the Elite Specialization should be something we can enjoy the new content with and play though vs receiving it as an end-game award. The Elite Specialization is irrational as an end-game reward because the Elite Specialization introduces a new play mechanic that’s exclusive to Heart of Thorns. Unique items, skins, etc… make sense are end-game rewards a new play mechanic makes absolutely no sense as a end-game reward. It’s beyond irrational, it’s asinine and horrible design by any game design theory you want to apply.

Given the overwelming anger over this many of us have requested ArenaNet provide some rational as to why they have provided unique play mechanics for each class and then have decided to make locked down until end of game. They have elected not to address this question.

How is it being an end-game reward irrational? It seems more to me that’s your interpretation.

HoT answered many complaints that people had towards vanilla GW2, and that was its lack of endgame content. Now that Anet added an answer to it, people still aren’t satisfied.

Any modern MMO you look at has a similar model. End-game content is largely a grind fest once you learn the mechanics. The issue is more that people feel betrayed that Anet is moving away from catering to casuals.

Chipofsalt.4673:

With all of the redundant posts on this forum regarding elite specializations being gated behind a heap of prerequisite hero points, I thought it would be fun to play devil’s advocate. Ultimately, I think the issue isn’t the number of points required to unlock them, but the nature of how difficult the HoT hero challenges are.

Here’s why I believe the hero point requirement should not be changed:

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.
2) It’s an elite spec – it shouldn’t be cheap by its nature.
3) It incentivizes map completion and/or WvW participation.
4) You don’t need the entire line unlocked for it to be used (or even useful).
5) Keeping them character bound keeps it in line with non-elite specs.

Most of the complaints I’ve seen about the hero point requirements seem to come from our culture of entitlement (I should get it now – or at least sooner – because I want it now).

That all said, I do think there is a HUGE problem with the fact that it’s almost impossible (or in some cases very difficult) to solo the hero challenges in the new zones. If someone is serious about unlocking their elite specialization, they should be able to do it with or without their friends and guildies.

Because you seem to be in your own little world where other players don’t matter, here is a response for your broken argument:
1.)People may not NEED them, but they want them, they have been playing the same classes since launch, they want to play through the content in a refreshing new way.
2.)It really is not “elite” it is essentially just a new trait line, not saying you shouldn’t have to unlock them, but the current grind for them is out of control, and many people have a lot of alts.
3.)Map completion is boring to many (like myself) why should we be forced to do it to unlock something that is core to the expansion we paid for, we didn’t pay for it to do content we don’t want to, and it creates an incentive to Ktrain in WVW, instead of actually playing WvW with how slowly you get the hero points…
4.)Actually, yes, you do need the entire line to be unlocked to have a viable build in WvW, and I would argue the same for fractals/dungeons. Otherwise you are running with a sub-optimal spec. You would be better off speccing in a fully completed line that has nothing to do with your build.
5.)Non-elite specs are attainable on every character reasonably, grinding to get them on 8+ alts is just unbelievable. TO EVEN THINK THAT it is reasonable to either: repeat the map completion PVE nonsense on multiple characters or level up thousands of times in WVW is fair is just total nonsense, especially to people that abhor the pve zones.

And entitlement MY kitten This is a game, not saying they should be instantly unlocked, but maybe like a story quest, a few WVW rank ups, a reward track or two in PVP would seem fair, and it’s not like many players didn’t pay REAL MONEY THAT THEY EARNED WORKING A REAL JOB to play the elite specs, to some that is really all they wanted, they did not want to grind for months on end as a casual player. Hardcore players will have their elite specs as soon as possible after launch regardless of what the devs do, thats just how it works, why screw over casual players that make up much of the player base of GW2, that have work and lives outside of playing non-stop. It just doesn’t make any sense to me

And, personally, I am getting fed up with people having this assumption that I should have to play the new zones to get my spec, I enjoy playing PVP, I hate playing PVE, I tried to play the expansion to see if I would enjoy it, I enjoyed gliding around and seeing the new zone, that is it, the group events were boring to me, and to imagine doing them to get the specs on all my chars is nonsense.

To argue that its fine as is, is just absolute ignorance.

/rantoff.

Chipofsalt.4673:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

It comes down to the majority feeling the Elite Specialization should be something we can enjoy the new content with and play though vs receiving it as an end-game award. The Elite Specialization is irrational as an end-game reward because the Elite Specialization introduces a new play mechanic that’s exclusive to Heart of Thorns. Unique items, skins, etc… make sense are end-game rewards a new play mechanic makes absolutely no sense as a end-game reward. It’s beyond irrational, it’s asinine and horrible design by any game design theory you want to apply.

Given the overwelming anger over this many of us have requested ArenaNet provide some rational as to why they have provided unique play mechanics for each class and then have decided to make locked down until end of game. They have elected not to address this question.

How is it being an end-game reward irrational? It seems more to me that’s your interpretation.

HoT answered many complaints that people had towards vanilla GW2, and that was its lack of endgame content. Now that Anet added an answer to it, people still aren’t satisfied.

Any modern MMO you look at has a similar model. End-game content is largely a grind fest once you learn the mechanics. The issue is more that people feel betrayed that Anet is moving away from catering to casuals.

To address your betrayal point (which is a separate issue)- The anti-casual shift is counter to everything they were preaching to us with the core game lunch. They had a set of tenants that made up their philosophy on how to build a better MMO and they put that into a manifesto and they drove their marketing with it. Over the past few years they have been changing that. HoT’s anti-causal design is a complete about-face and withdraw of their manifesto. It represents a “if you can’t beat them, join them philosophy” attitude in design and it betrayal of every player who has invested time in the game trusting in the integrity of ArenaNet. Having said that it has nothing to do with the irrational design behind Elite Specializations.

Almost every MMO makes you grind, but show me one that makes the end-game reward a core advertised play mechanic. This is different than rolling a new class is WoW and having to level them (and games like WoW give you plenty of options to level quickly)

The Elite Specialization construct doesn’t even exist in that many MMOs, but if you want to draw a comparison, look at another NCSoft game AION. In AION you have to work to unlock your elite specialization but it comes about 25-30% into the game.

That progression is well paced and is about the point in the core GW2 game where a player unlocks their elite skill and finally has their full skill bar. About 25-30% in is where the full Elite Sepcialization (minus the unique skins, and weapon mods) should be available to play. I agree with making players work for it but there’s a huge difference in making most characters have to work though 75-90% of the content in order to create a viable build and utilize the new play mechanic vs making them work though 25-30% of the new content and then allowing them to enjoyu the last 70-75% with the new Elite Specialization. Players who journey into HoT with a character that has the 213 hero points from map competition will get the unlock sooner (~50% of HoT) and they will get to experience a good chunk of the content but they are he exception to the rule not the norm. So when we talk the HoT Elite Specs as end-game awards, we’re talking about for the players who are coming in with less than 100 hero points. They will have to spend 60 just to unlock the empty trait line. It comes down to what is a core play mechanic of the expansion and what isn’t. Your perspective that the Elite Specializations are not something the average character could expect to play though the game with is irrational because it is a new play mechanic that has been advertised as being a big part of the game. There’s not really further discussion to be had if you don’t understand or disagree. I’d can’t respect your opinion on because it doesn’t match any successful pattern I know of. But you are entitled to your opinion.

hurrado.2346:

Because you seem to be in your own little world where other players don’t matter, here is a response for your broken argument:

……

And entitlement MY kitten This is a game, not saying they should be instantly unlocked, but maybe like a story quest, a few WVW rank ups, a reward track or two in PVP would seem fair, and it’s not like many players didn’t pay REAL MONEY THAT THEY EARNED WORKING A REAL JOB to play the elite specs, to some that is really all they wanted, they did not want to grind for months on end as a casual player. Hardcore players will have their elite specs as soon as possible after launch regardless of what the devs do, thats just how it works, why screw over casual players that make up much of the player base of GW2, that have work and lives outside of playing non-stop. It just doesn’t make any sense to me

And, personally, I am getting fed up with people having this assumption that I should have to play the new zones to get my spec, I enjoy playing PVP, I hate playing PVE, I tried to play the expansion to see if I would enjoy it, I enjoyed gliding around and seeing the new zone, that is it, the group events were boring to me, and to imagine doing them to get the specs on all my chars is nonsense.

To argue that its fine as is, is just absolute ignorance.

/rantoff.

You seem to be confusing something. There is more than one way to run an MMO, and just because I believe in the less popular opinion does not make me any more or less correct than you are. Saying my point is coming from “absolute ignorance” is simply myopic.

Of course players matter. If Anet chooses to cater more towards the hardcore players, sure they’d lose some casuals, but they would also gain a different player base.

I didn’t say it’s fine as is. I said it’s fine WITH the assumption they would make hero challenges easier.

Also, look up the word irrational. Stating 1 + 1 = 3 is irrational. Stating the sky is green is irrational. Stating spaghetti is my favorite food is an opinion.

Look up FF14. Their newest expansion is gated behind hundreds of MSQs.

Chipofsalt.4673:

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.

With very few exceptions, you don’t need gliding either. But the zones would be a lot less fun without it.

Chipofsalt.4673:

2) It’s an elite spec – it shouldn’t be cheap by its nature.

They are elite in name only, not in power.

Chipofsalt.4673:

3) It incentivizes map completion and/or WvW participation.

Map completion already has rewards, which incentivizes map completion and has never needed incentivizing beyond that. WvW participation does not need such an incentive either, nor does the process of getting elite specs through WvW incentivize playing it when you normally don’t, since it’s such a slow alternative.

Chipofsalt.4673:

4) You don’t need the entire line unlocked for it to be used (or even useful).

Useful, yes. Weak and suboptimal, also yes.

Chipofsalt.4673:

5) Keeping them character bound keeps it in line with non-elite specs.

And making them cost 400 HP (e.g. either all 40 HoT HP or 20 HoT HP and 200 Tyria) does not keep them in line with non-elite specs.

Also compare it to GW2’s predecessor. In the first Guild Wars, it took A LOT of effort or wealth to unlock all of your skills by the time EoTN was released. How is the decision to make elite specs time consuming to obtain any different of a move?

Labjax.2465:

Chipofsalt.4673:

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.

With very few exceptions, you don’t need gliding either. But the zones would be a lot less fun without it.

…..

Chipofsalt.4673:

5) Keeping them character bound keeps it in line with non-elite specs.

And making them cost 400 HP (e.g. either all 40 HoT HP or 20 HoT HP and 200 Tyria) does not keep them in line with non-elite specs.

Read my above posts.

Chipofsalt.4673:

You seem to be confusing something. There is more than one way to run an MMO, and just because I believe in the less popular opinion does not make me any more or less correct than you are. Saying my point is coming from “absolute ignorance” is simply myopic.

Of course players matter. If Anet chooses to cater more towards the hardcore players, sure they’d lose some casuals, but they would also gain a different player base.

Anet is betting the bank that the game can survive without the casuals – which is typically the older demographic with the deeper pocket books.

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.

Why should I have to play through it with my old builds that I’m bored of?

2) It’s an elite spec – it shouldn’t be cheap by its nature.

Calling something “elite” doesn’t change anything. If that were the case it would be stronger than the base specializations, but it’s not meant to be. It’s meant to be balanced.

3) It incentivizes map completion and/or WvW participation.

I don’t want to be incentivized to do stuff. It’s my choice what I do. I’m tired of game devs telling me what to do. There’s a time and place for incentivization. It’s called PvP. You have to incentivize interactive gameplay in PvP. In PvE the player should be free to do whatever they feel like doing.

4) You don’t need the entire line unlocked for it to be used (or even useful).

It feels bad to go around with an incomplete build.

5) Keeping them character bound keeps it in line with non-elite specs.

They are in line with non-elite specs by nature of being balanced. You can still play builds without them and not be at a disadvantage.

Khristophoros.7194:

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.

Why should I have to play through it with my old builds that I’m bored of?

2) It’s an elite spec – it shouldn’t be cheap by its nature.

Calling something “elite” doesn’t change anything. If that were the case it would be stronger than the base specializations, but it’s not meant to be. It’s meant to be balanced.

3) It incentivizes map completion and/or WvW participation.

I don’t want to be incentivized to do stuff. It’s my choice what I do. I’m tired of game devs telling me what to do. There’s a time and place for incentivization. It’s called PvP. You have to incentivize interactive gameplay in PvP. In PvE the player should be free to do whatever they feel like doing.

4) You don’t need the entire line unlocked for it to be used (or even useful).

It feels bad to go around with an incomplete build.

5) Keeping them character bound keeps it in line with non-elite specs.

They are in line with non-elite specs by nature of being balanced. You can still play builds without them and not be at a disadvantage.

Remember when they said GW2 would be play how you want when you want? i guess if you want to play with your new trait line you have to grind you kitten off even though they have allways been anti grinding.

ive quit the game untill either masteries or the elite spec get changed/fixed

Chipofsalt.4673:

Labjax.2465:

Chipofsalt.4673:

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.

With very few exceptions, you don’t need gliding either. But the zones would be a lot less fun without it.

…..

Chipofsalt.4673:

5) Keeping them character bound keeps it in line with non-elite specs.

And making them cost 400 HP (e.g. either all 40 HoT HP or 20 HoT HP and 200 Tyria) does not keep them in line with non-elite specs.

Read my above posts.

No.

Chipofsalt.4673:

With all of the redundant posts on this forum regarding elite specializations being gated behind a heap of prerequisite hero points, I thought it would be fun to play devil’s advocate. Ultimately, I think the issue isn’t the number of points required to unlock them, but the nature of how difficult the HoT hero challenges are.

Here’s why I believe the hero point requirement should not be changed:

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.
2) It’s an elite spec – it shouldn’t be cheap by its nature.
3) It incentivizes map completion and/or WvW participation.
.

Just to add to whats been said on these. ANET themselves state that elite specs shouldn’t overshadow the base specs. This runs contrary to the cost.

As for 3 other mechanisms can do that and let us play with the cool new abilities.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Chipofsalt.4673:

…
1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.
.

Clipped everything else from your post because really everything else you say is just to support 1. No one is going to disagree with you. We don’t need our elite specialization to play thoug HoT. It comes down to the majority feeling the Elite Specialization should be something we can enjoy the new content with and play though vs receiving it as an end-game award.

You have proof of this majority, or are you just assuming it’s a majority. I don’t assume any such thing and I don’t believe there is a majority that want it. I think there’s a very vocal group of people that want it, but you’d have a hard time proving it’s a majority.

For example, I know a lot of people aren’t even in love with the elite specs for their profession. My wife mains a guardian, she’s not enthused by the Dragon Hunter. She doesn’t care if it takes a while to unlock it.

I don’t particularly care if it takes me a while to unlock content either, because I like progression.

Most people probably don’t even follow the game as closely as we do here on the forums. A bunch of people are just running around the new zones, happy to have the content, and they’re not even thinking heavily about the mastery.

I do think there’s a group of disenfranchised people who are very loudly complaining that they don’t have access to their masteries right away. I think you’ll have a very very hard time proving their a majority.

As often happens, people assume their strongly felt feelings are echoed by some kind of majority. It’s very rarely true.

Kaykero.7251:

1) But I and many people paid precisely to do that.
2) But I paid real money for it.
3) But I want to complete the maps with the elite spec. What should I do once I have it fully unlocked? Stand around and not caring for anything because I already did it?
4) The new content is designed to be harder than the core game, so switching a barely useful traitline with one that is not only fully leveled but also complementing my current build and available skills is nonsense. Of course people can technically use them, but you could also technically walk to work instead of drinving your car.
5) That point I do not even care about.

It is a problem: people want to play the new classes, but instead of being able to do that and concentrate on the fun aspects of the game (story, new maps, events) they are forced to rush through, ruining every bit of exploration and immersion. I never expected to have my elite spec unlocked instantly, but through some kind of story or sidequest near the beginning of the new content. Needing 400 hero points, with 60 of them only just unlocking the ability to use a new weapon, is just to kitten much for something I and many other people paid 50 bucks to play as.

When you buy a Zelda game do you cry to Nintendo that you can’t go onto and complete the last dungeon, have all equipment, at the start of the game? Prerelease they marketed progression in this expansion to that of Zelda and Metroid, you knew what you were getting into.

So you’re too lazy to put in the amount of effort the rest of us casuals had to attain even100 points, much less 200. I don’t think it’s ArenaNet’s fault you skipped a lot of core content and now can’t unlock your specialization immediately. Welcome to the Guild Wars 2 of three years ago, where you still had to work to attain all your skills and traits after hitting lv80.

captaincrash.6528:

Kaykero.7251:

1) But I and many people paid precisely to do that.
2) But I paid real money for it.
3) But I want to complete the maps with the elite spec. What should I do once I have it fully unlocked? Stand around and not caring for anything because I already did it?
4) The new content is designed to be harder than the core game, so switching a barely useful traitline with one that is not only fully leveled but also complementing my current build and available skills is nonsense. Of course people can technically use them, but you could also technically walk to work instead of drinving your car.
5) That point I do not even care about.

It is a problem: people want to play the new classes, but instead of being able to do that and concentrate on the fun aspects of the game (story, new maps, events) they are forced to rush through, ruining every bit of exploration and immersion. I never expected to have my elite spec unlocked instantly, but through some kind of story or sidequest near the beginning of the new content. Needing 400 hero points, with 60 of them only just unlocking the ability to use a new weapon, is just to kitten much for something I and many other people paid 50 bucks to play as.

When you buy a Zelda game do you cry to Nintendo that you can’t go onto and complete the last dungeon, have all equipment, at the start of the game? Prerelease they marketed progression in this expansion to that of Zelda and Metroid, you knew what you were getting into.

Did you miss this line in your reading:

Kaykero.7251:

I never expected to have my elite spec unlocked instantly, but through some kind of story or sidequest near the beginning of the new content.

Stop skimming posts and making assumptions that fit your argument.

Seera.5916:

captaincrash.6528:

Kaykero.7251:

1) But I and many people paid precisely to do that.
2) But I paid real money for it.
3) But I want to complete the maps with the elite spec. What should I do once I have it fully unlocked? Stand around and not caring for anything because I already did it?
4) The new content is designed to be harder than the core game, so switching a barely useful traitline with one that is not only fully leveled but also complementing my current build and available skills is nonsense. Of course people can technically use them, but you could also technically walk to work instead of drinving your car.
5) That point I do not even care about.

It is a problem: people want to play the new classes, but instead of being able to do that and concentrate on the fun aspects of the game (story, new maps, events) they are forced to rush through, ruining every bit of exploration and immersion. I never expected to have my elite spec unlocked instantly, but through some kind of story or sidequest near the beginning of the new content. Needing 400 hero points, with 60 of them only just unlocking the ability to use a new weapon, is just to kitten much for something I and many other people paid 50 bucks to play as.

When you buy a Zelda game do you cry to Nintendo that you can’t go onto and complete the last dungeon, have all equipment, at the start of the game? Prerelease they marketed progression in this expansion to that of Zelda and Metroid, you knew what you were getting into.

Did you miss this line in your reading:

Kaykero.7251:

I never expected to have my elite spec unlocked instantly, but through some kind of story or sidequest near the beginning of the new content.

Stop skimming posts and making assumptions that fit your argument.

What? If you don’t want things used in an argument against you, don’t say them.

I agree with you, the elite specs don’t need to be changed, however I don’t need to play the game either. Even today I spend more hours on these forums than I have spend playing and it is only 4 days after launch.

It is true that I can only speak for myself, but most my guildies are strangely absent, and the ones that came online today are either farming eotm or the labyrinth.

captaincrash.6528:

Seera.5916:

captaincrash.6528:

Kaykero.7251:

1) But I and many people paid precisely to do that.
2) But I paid real money for it.
3) But I want to complete the maps with the elite spec. What should I do once I have it fully unlocked? Stand around and not caring for anything because I already did it?
4) The new content is designed to be harder than the core game, so switching a barely useful traitline with one that is not only fully leveled but also complementing my current build and available skills is nonsense. Of course people can technically use them, but you could also technically walk to work instead of drinving your car.
5) That point I do not even care about.

It is a problem: people want to play the new classes, but instead of being able to do that and concentrate on the fun aspects of the game (story, new maps, events) they are forced to rush through, ruining every bit of exploration and immersion. I never expected to have my elite spec unlocked instantly, but through some kind of story or sidequest near the beginning of the new content. Needing 400 hero points, with 60 of them only just unlocking the ability to use a new weapon, is just to kitten much for something I and many other people paid 50 bucks to play as.

When you buy a Zelda game do you cry to Nintendo that you can’t go onto and complete the last dungeon, have all equipment, at the start of the game? Prerelease they marketed progression in this expansion to that of Zelda and Metroid, you knew what you were getting into.

Did you miss this line in your reading:

Kaykero.7251:

I never expected to have my elite spec unlocked instantly, but through some kind of story or sidequest near the beginning of the new content.

Stop skimming posts and making assumptions that fit your argument.

What? If you don’t want things used in an argument against you, don’t say them.

Yep, you skim. Didn’t even notice that I wasn’t the person you initially posted to.

Kaykero (NOT me, by the way), posted that they did not want the elites just handed to them and wouldn’t have been unhappy with a personal story type mission to unlock it.

Then you go in and ask if they wanted to do the end game content of Zelda and Metroid when they first start up the game. Completely missing the fact that that wasn’t was they were asking for.

Stop skimming and making assumptions that fit your argument. When your assumptions are based on your missing key parts of posts.

captaincrash.6528:

When you buy a Zelda game do you cry to Nintendo that you can’t go onto and complete the last dungeon, have all equipment, at the start of the game? Prerelease they marketed progression in this expansion to that of Zelda and Metroid, you knew what you were getting into.

If, without taking sides, I understand the argument – and to use DOOM as my analogy: some players are arguing that they’re being forced to play through almost the entire campaign only to get the shotgun at the end, when all they wanted was to play through the campaign with the shotgun. Especially since they were given the impression from the box cover art that the shotgun would be standard issue.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

captaincrash.6528:

When you buy a Zelda game do you cry to Nintendo that you can’t go onto and complete the last dungeon, have all equipment, at the start of the game? Prerelease they marketed progression in this expansion to that of Zelda and Metroid, you knew what you were getting into.

If, without taking sides, I understand the argument – and to use DOOM as my analogy: some players are arguing that they’re being forced to play through almost the entire campaign only to get the shotgun at the end, when all they wanted was to play through the campaign with the shotgun. Especially since they were given the impression from the box cover art that the shotgun would be standard issue.

Kind of, But.

Take the shotgun and put it behind a barrier that you cannot reach unless you have 4 other players standing on a pressure plates at the same time. And this is after you have played the game to death over 3 years using the same weapon and you will begin to see the problem.

Actually , Captain, I followed all the presentations Anet made about Heart of Thorns prior to release and not once did they mention a 400 hero point cost for the elite specialization.

Tommyknocker.6089:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

captaincrash.6528:

When you buy a Zelda game do you cry to Nintendo that you can’t go onto and complete the last dungeon, have all equipment, at the start of the game? Prerelease they marketed progression in this expansion to that of Zelda and Metroid, you knew what you were getting into.

If, without taking sides, I understand the argument – and to use DOOM as my analogy: some players are arguing that they’re being forced to play through almost the entire campaign only to get the shotgun at the end, when all they wanted was to play through the campaign with the shotgun. Especially since they were given the impression from the box cover art that the shotgun would be standard issue.

Kind of, But.

Take the shotgun and put it behind a barrier that you cannot reach unless you have 4 other players standing on a pressure plates at the same time. And this is after you have played the game to death over 3 years using the same weapon and you will begin to see the problem.

This is a pretty good analogy, imo.

Oh and by the way, elite specializations don’t offer any character progression. You don’t get any better. It only offers an alternate playstyle. Heck, if you play the elite without having all the traits your character actually regresses.

Chipofsalt.4673:

Also compare it to GW2’s predecessor. In the first Guild Wars, it took A LOT of effort or wealth to unlock all of your skills by the time EoTN was released. How is the decision to make elite specs time consuming to obtain any different of a move?

GW1 you had the freedom to go for a certain skill you want and not play with a crippled build; GW2 – forced to waste points on useless trait lines than directly spend on the elite spec which we want.

Also please don’t give the heavy time wasting grinders the title of hardcore gamers and the opposite to casuals.

Hardcore gamers uplift their own skill and understanding of the game; the human element. Some hardcore gamers just put up with the grind, grinding doesnt make anyone a hardcore gamer.

OP,either you are a total kitten or a very egoistical person.

1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.
Yes, you don’t need it, but then why would you buy a HoT? Some player doesn’t give a crap about story or new map, they just want new build.

2) It’s an elite spec – it shouldn’t be cheap by its nature.
No. It’s just called “elite spec”. It is actually just a new trait that is very expensive. Also why would I buy kitten for $50 then I need to work hard to get a trait? It’s not a legendary equip, it just new skill and trait, like the other 5.

3) It incentivizes map completion and/or WvW participation.
Not everyone like WvW. Even there’s players who can’t play WvW due to high ping problem. Try to put yourself in their shoes. What would you do if you spend US$50 and they forces you to play something you don’t / can’t because of technical problem.
Also FYI, in some country, US$ currency is pretty expensive.

4) You don’t need the entire line unlocked for it to be used (or even useful).
This is true.

5) Keeping them character bound keeps it in line with non-elite specs.
Also true.

elite spec requirements need to be changed because the current system is so chock full of problems that nobody is enjoying getting their elite specialisations. it’s not exciting. it’s not FUN. this is a video game, it’s meant to be FUN. This arbitrary, useless grindfest that requires atleast 5 other players and a couple of chronomancers to complete all the hero challenges is utterly ridiculous. All hero points need to be soloable, the amount of hero points needed to FULLY unlock the elite specialisation needs to be dropped drastically, needlessly gimmicky hero challenges need to be entirely removed and replaced, not redesigned. anyone who has all the hero points from tyria should be able to unlock the elite spec no problem. there’s SO much that needs to change because the system as it is does not work. it’s not fun. it needs changing.

I don’t understand why most of you guys feel like you deserve to get your elite spec right away? I feel rewarded for going out in the game and finally unlock those traits and I believe that making them easier to get would ruin the experience.

Yes I understand that for your alts it’s a tedious task. I understand that you may not like the other content like wvw or pvp and don’t want to have to go there in order to get you specializations. But it doesn’t mean that it should be easier to get because YOU do not like having to work your way to it.

Vegetation.6419:

I don’t understand why most of you guys feel like you deserve to get your elite spec right away? I feel rewarded for going out in the game and finally unlock those traits and I believe that making them easier to get would ruin the experience.

Yes I understand that for your alts it’s a tedious task. I understand that you may not like the other content like wvw or pvp and don’t want to have to go there in order to get you specializations. But it doesn’t mean that it should be easier to get because YOU do not like having to work your way to it.

Hero challenges are a PAIN. they have issues that need to be resolved, their difficulty needs to be lowered in order for character progression to feel more rewarding. There are a ton of solutions that have been provided by me and others that still grant that feeling of progression without handing it on a silver platter, yet you just blindly ignore all of them and brush a giant stroke saying we all wanted handed to us with an ice cream sandwich and cake.

Some people are asking for that, true, and honestly i wouldn’t object. The elite specs are FUN to play. The workload GETTING to the elite specs makes them entirely not worth it. easier options hurts NO ONE. Granting different difficulties for certain aspects of a game hurts NO ONE. Making character progression soloable hurts NO ONE.

Vegetation.6419:

I don’t understand why most of you guys feel like you deserve to get your elite spec right away? I feel rewarded for going out in the game and finally unlock those traits and I believe that making them easier to get would ruin the experience.

Yes I understand that for your alts it’s a tedious task. I understand that you may not like the other content like wvw or pvp and don’t want to have to go there in order to get you specializations. But it doesn’t mean that it should be easier to get because YOU do not like having to work your way to it.

There really are only two options to grind for the elite specs, so you really can’t play how you want to get them you either: A. Farm PVE communes on every character, or B. Ktrain in WVW on every character.

They do need to be changed though. I primarily play pvp, and currently there isn’t a way to unlock hero points in pvp. I do venture out into wvw somewhat often, and pve…. as little as possible. WvW takes a loooong time to unlock 400 hero points for all of my characters. Right now I’ve spent the weekend trying to progress in my pve, so hopefully when I can finally get the mastery stuff unlocked I can get the hero points more quickly on all my chars. I haven’t made much progress, and I’ve had even less fun doing it. The elite specs are the only thing I care about with the expansion, and I feel like it’s money totally wasted with how unobtainable they are. Yeah, I can get them for free in pvp, but as soon as I leave to do something else my character completely has to change.

Vegetation.6419:

I don’t understand why most of you guys feel like you deserve to get your elite spec right away?

Strawman, no-one is saying we should get it immediately without effort.

I’ve always thought “culture of entitlement” was a stupid argument. All of our inventions since the beginning of time are made for the sole purpose of making our lives easier. It is literally in our nature since our beginning to want things to be easier, so saying we have a “culture of entitlement” is like saying dogs have paws.

Stop assuming elite specs are supposed to be better. That’s not why they are elite. They are elite because you can only have one elite spec active at a time (for the future when there are more).

You don’t seem to understand the issue. It’s not about entitlement. It’s about enjoying your profession before you finish all the content. By the time you get enough hero points to fully unlock the spec you’ll be done nearly all of the content. So I get my spec and then what? Go farm with it? No thanks.

I just want ArenaNet to let me solo all the hero points. That’s it. The one and only change I want them to make to HoT.

Edit: Not saying I don’t want them to be challenging, that’s great. I just want the option to solo them.

I think them being challenging is a good great thing. I just don’t want them to be mandatory.

At the bare minimum, hero points need to be tuned down to be doable solo.

Right now, one of HoT’s primarily selling points (and by far the most emphasized) is gated behind a hero point grind, that’s gated behind a mastery grind, that’s gated behind an exp grind, that’s gated behind a fifty dollar paywall. It’s no surprise people (most of whom wanted to play HoT as their elite spec, not for it) aren’t happy with that.