Why endgame content is bad
I like endgame more than leveling up part of the game.
In fact, Tomb of Knowledge would sell more if it was in the cash shop because leveling is boring in this game.
I originally brought this game because the developers lied and mislead that GW2’s endgame starts at level 1 which it actually doesn’t since you can’t even build a character at level 1 nor be useful in the group content in the game until level 80. I am sure endgame means a lot to people. I enjoy collecting skins and unlocking stuff.
I would hope for a better WvW reward system for progression there.
End game content is a trick of the mind, blinkered into view by leveling systems.
I originally brought this game because the developers lied and mislead that GW2’s endgame starts at level 1 which it actually doesn’t since you can’t even build a character at level 1 nor be useful in the group content in the game until level 80.
They didn’t lie. You do the same types of content at level 1 as you do at level 80. The only thing that becomes available to you through leveling is more content while the content you did at level 1 stays somewhat relevant.
Options and player power has nothing to do with endgame. Endgame is what you do at the end of the game, and at level 80 you’re still doing events just like you were at level 1.
I originally brought this game because the developers lied and mislead that GW2’s endgame starts at level 1 which it actually doesn’t since you can’t even build a character at level 1 nor be useful in the group content in the game until level 80.
They didn’t lie. You do the same types of content at level 1 as you do at level 80. The only thing that becomes available to you through leveling is more content while the content you did at level 1 stays somewhat relevant.
Options and player power has nothing to do with endgame. Endgame is what you do at the end of the game, and at level 80 you’re still doing events just like you were at level 1.
That’s a lie. I can’t dot WvW at level 1 nor PvP.
I can’t do fractals at level 1. I can’t do dungeons at level 1.
I can’t wear exotic gear at level 1.
I can’t do dragon events at level 1.
There are many things a player can’t do at level one that a level 80 can do at endgame.
So that’s a lie.
I originally brought this game because the developers lied and mislead that GW2’s endgame starts at level 1 which it actually doesn’t since you can’t even build a character at level 1 nor be useful in the group content in the game until level 80.
They didn’t lie. You do the same types of content at level 1 as you do at level 80. The only thing that becomes available to you through leveling is more content while the content you did at level 1 stays somewhat relevant.
Options and player power has nothing to do with endgame. Endgame is what you do at the end of the game, and at level 80 you’re still doing events just like you were at level 1.
That’s a lie. I can’t dot WvW at level 1 nor PvP.
I can’t do fractals at level 1. I can’t do dungeons at level 1.
I can’t wear exotic gear at level 1.
I can’t do dragon events at level 1.There are many things a player can’t do at level one that a level 80 can do at endgame.
So that’s a lie.
You can WvW at level 1, you can PvP at level 1.
You can do fractals at level 1, it scales you to 80.
Gear isn’t part of endgame, and “dragon events” is arbitrary… they’re still events.
The only thing you’re right about is dungeons… kind of… you can try to do dungeons at level 1 but you’ll probably die; however dungeons become doable at level 30… not 80.
You didn’t even prove me wrong though, that’s the thing. You do events at level 1 and you still do events at level 80.
(edited by Malthurius.6870)
I originally brought this game because the developers lied and mislead that GW2’s endgame starts at level 1 which it actually doesn’t since you can’t even build a character at level 1 nor be useful in the group content in the game until level 80.
They didn’t lie. You do the same types of content at level 1 as you do at level 80. The only thing that becomes available to you through leveling is more content while the content you did at level 1 stays somewhat relevant.
Options and player power has nothing to do with endgame. Endgame is what you do at the end of the game, and at level 80 you’re still doing events just like you were at level 1.
That’s a lie. I can’t dot WvW at level 1 nor PvP.
I can’t do fractals at level 1. I can’t do dungeons at level 1.
I can’t wear exotic gear at level 1.
I can’t do dragon events at level 1.There are many things a player can’t do at level one that a level 80 can do at endgame.
So that’s a lie.
You can WvW at level 1, you can PvP at level 1.
You can do fractals at level 1, it scales you to 80.
Gear isn’t part of endgame, and “dragon events” is arbitrary… they’re still events.The only thing you’re right about is dungeons… kind of… you can try to do dungeons at level 1 but you’ll probably die; however dungeons become available at level 30… not 80.
You didn’t even prove me wrong though, that’s the thing. You do events at level 1 and you still do events at level 80.
You do events at level 1. But not dragon events. That’s a different kind of event. You can’t do dungeons at level 1 which again proves my point that endgame does not start at level 1 when you can’t do all the same content that a level 80 can. Dungeons being a good example.
You do events at level 1. But not dragon events. That’s a different kind of event. You can’t do dungeons at level 1 which again proves my point that endgame does not start at level 1 when you can’t do all the same content that a level 80 can. Dungeons being a good example.
It’s not about how many different kinds of content there are available, it’s whether or not what you do at level 1 is still relevant at level 80, and it is. Compared to say WoW where you will never go back to the starting area or even bother to quest again once you reach level cap; in GW2 there is still a reason to go back to those zones. That is what makes GW2’s endgame start at level 1; level 1 content is still relevant content at level 80.
You do events at level 1. But not dragon events. That’s a different kind of event. You can’t do dungeons at level 1 which again proves my point that endgame does not start at level 1 when you can’t do all the same content that a level 80 can. Dungeons being a good example.
It’s not about how many different kinds of content there are available, it’s whether or not what you do at level 1 is still relevant at level 80, and it is. Compared to say WoW where you will never go back to the starting area or even bother to quest again once you reach level cap; in GW2 there is still a reason to go back to those zones. That is what makes GW2’s endgame start at level 1; level 1 content is still relevant content at level 80.
Going back there once you are level 80
Is NOT the same thing as
“Endgame starts at level 1”
Since you are no longer level 1 at level 80. You are 80 scaled down to level 1. That’s not the same statement. As a level 1, there are many things I can’t do that a level 80 can.
I can’t even build a character at level 1.
The “problem” with designing a mmorpg with “no endgame/elder game/whatever” is that the levelling experience needs to be the retention point. That usually means long leveling times, unforgiving of mistakes, open world PK and kill stealing etc.
IMO all of those would make gw2 a much better game for me, but I’m not sure most of the gw2 population would agree.
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Absolutely agree with that article.
I was an EQ player from it’s start.
When WoW came out there were a lot of us oldschool EQ players who shuttered at the realization that this is what would become the status quo in MMOs.
EQ had fun stuff to do at every level. I played on the PVP server and we would have Wars going on in many different zones, they had a mechanic put in that you could only kill within 6 levels of yourself, this prevented people from rushing to the cap to farm lower level people, it was amazing. I still have fond memories of taking a bunch of Evil races into Greater Faydark and setting up camp and slaughtering all the good races. Likewise I had a good character that we’d do the same going into Guk/Innothule and waging war on the Evils.
There’s certainly been a turn. But, it’s not so much just endgame but a psychological change in the way games have been handled.
Immersion has broken down because players want to play the elements of the game they desire. EQ didn’t just do the leveling path and end game differently, they did EVERYTHING differently.
I remember taking a two hour trip to get to the next city. Some days traveling was all I’d do. And that was fun, immersive and rewarding. When traveling you’d have to bind places otherwise you’d die and start your whole trip over, losing whatever you had on your corpse till you got back to it. That created a fear and tension that was fun.
That simply isn’t the way gamers want to play things anymore. Instant gratification is a term thrown around a lot but it fits here. No one wants to travel like that anymore. No one wants the reprocussions of their actions to actually alter their game play. Games have forever changed because WoW introduced a more “lets get to the action” type game play. And that’s sad, but on the other hand it’s created a much more active set of games. Instead of logging in on the weekend and spending half my time traveling, I now log in and run a dozen dungeons, a fractal, maybe hop into some PVP or WvW, and basically I’m constantly into the content I desire with no wait time. I’m not sure if I could handle going back even though i see the beauty and immersion that it created.
Even Vanilla WoW would probably be considered quite slow paced by today’s standard, again a cliche phrase but “give them an inch and they’ll take a mile” fits here. Players have constantly been asking for quicker access to game play. And what has been lost is the immersive depth of content. This goes with the leveling structure “I don’t want to have to spend 3 months leveling to catch up” (so they add in fast leveling when you’re below a certain point to ease that), " ugh I gotta spend 10 minutes running there?" (so they add waypoints/teleports/fast travel). “I died and can’t get back to my stuff!” (what they really mean is “I don’t want to take the time to get back to my stuff” ok, we’ll remove that hinderance…). Etc.
It’s all been in an effort to create a more casual environment but in doing so, as I said, you lose that depth in the game. Look at the good RPG games out there, your decisions matter. How many MMOs have retained that? None that I can think of.
But, again, it’s not all bad as a player, I enjoy the fact that I’m no longer needing to get 100 people together to go break through the entrance of Plane of Fear, only to wipe and spend the rest of the day getting our corpses back. I’m no longer having to slowly plow through Kael Drakkel taking 5-10 minute med breaks every 30 or so minutes so the healers can get back to full mana. I no longer have to do 10+ Hours Plane of Growth clears.
As much as it has taken away from the genre we as players have gotten a lot. We can now play casually and it’s really quite nice. I really enjoy GW2s casual nature. When I finally stopped playing EQ it had even morphed into the same type of more casual/easy MMO. I was relieved when I went to DCUO and found raids lasted about 30mins-1hour. Now in GW2 I can be in and out in 30 mins and have actually accomplished something.
So as much as I miss the “good ol’ days” there is a quality in the new brand. Though I do agree, it’d be refreshing to see a more sandbox approach to these games, where there are more options and paths you can take and where it’s fine to simply be low level and having fun because you don’t feel a need to get through it to go play in the bulk of the content.
No levels = No end game. Or to put it more precisely, No levels = All the game is end game. I would even take that a step further and say: No progression = All the game is end game.
Most developers fool themselves into thinking they need levels, or progression, when they really don’t. If a game has a wide enough variety of enjoyable, and (most importantly) repeatable, content there really is no need for progression of any kind.
The only purpose progression serves is to slow the pace of the players down, so that they do not eat through the content too quickly. To me it is an indication that the developers lack confidence in their own ability to create long lasting content. It shows they are not confident the content will retain players for a decent amount of time.
Of course it is not just the developers that believe progression is necessary. Us players do too.
Some believe you need progression so that there is a goal to aim for, but this is untrue. There are many goals that can be added to the content without it involving progression. The simplest of which is winning. Having some arbitrary number as your end goal feels so unimaginative to me, and carries with it the end game problem of players skipping/rushing content that should otherwise be enjoyed.
Some people believe that progression is the only way to give that satifying feeling of achievement and reward. You gain a level and feel instantly gratified at your new found power or ability. Again, this is not true. Yes, it is nice gaining something for leveling, but it is no better or worse of a feeling than gaining something for winning a PvP match or defeating a tough boss. And if anything, gaining a reward for real effort, rather than simply increasing a number, generally feels much more enjoyable and cherished. And as to gaining more power, this can easily be rewarded though achievements rather than increasing numbers. For example, you could learn new skills by defeating the bosses that use them.
I am not saying I have a problem with levels or progression as such. I feel GW2 has a pretty good system, and I am very happy to see Anet choose a horizontal progression system over a vertical one. But I do feel that a much better game could be created if developers would break the habit and stop thinking that numerical progression systems are necessary, and stop thinking that content needs to be paced.
Directing players along a path is one thing, forcing them along it is another thing entirely.
(edited by Rin.1046)
I like endgame more than leveling up part of the game.
In fact, Tomb of Knowledge would sell more if it was in the cash shop because leveling is boring in this game.
I originally brought this game because the developers lied and mislead that GW2’s endgame starts at level 1 which it actually doesn’t since you can’t even build a character at level 1 nor be useful in the group content in the game until level 80. I am sure endgame means a lot to people. I enjoy collecting skins and unlocking stuff.
I would hope for a better WvW reward system for progression there.
I think the issue with low levels not being useful is more to blame on the level scaling not being quite right (sure a cap level character should have advantages, but not the point that with enough of them in a map cause at level players to suffer) and was compounded by the changes in the level experience from the NPE patch.
Pets have been hidden due to rising Player complaints.
The “problem” with designing a mmorpg with “no endgame/elder game/whatever” is that the levelling experience needs to be the retention point. That usually means long leveling times, unforgiving of mistakes, open world PK and kill stealing etc.
IMO all of those would make gw2 a much better game for me, but I’m not sure most of the gw2 population would agree.
+1 to this. Id hate gw2 if it was like that. I think its almost at a good balance now and will be with a bit more focus on challenging instanced content (fingers crossed for HoT).
The article does raise a good point though. If you focus too much on endgame and dont put enough into the early game then you are going to drive people away. Either because players who like the early game cant enjoy it because its neglected. Or because players who like endgame cant stomach the grind to get to max level on their alts. Its important to make sure all aspects are of good quality.
Anet did a good job with their core systems and their leveling. They ruined it a bit with the new trait hunting but in essence its not nearly as frustrating as many other MMO’s. Anets endgame is lacking in small group content at the moment. But there are plenty of other good endgame features to keep people occupied and hooked. So overall you can see that balancing both sides is the best approach and anet are definitely trying to do that.
Thank you all for some incredibly insightful posts! Some of them got me to reminiscing about my days of pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons. I went from those types of games to the PC based D&D RPGs (Eye of the Beholder, Pool of Radience), and found my way to online MMOs.
I think I’d really like to see a larger variety of content on the PvE experience rather than it always being about meaner, stronger, harder content. I too miss the days of long journeys where getting there was at least as rewarding as the content I traveled to. I too have gotten hooked on the easier, casual gameplay and nostalgia is making me miss those “days gone by”.
If the mastery system plays similarly to the reputation skills of the original Guild Wars would this meet your definition of grind? Does this system feel like a “gear check”, a way to slow the community’s progress through the content? Is this what you consider to be “hard” content, being artificially slowed?
I think I’d really like to see a larger variety of content on the PvE experience rather than it always being about meaner, stronger, harder content. I too miss the days of long journeys where getting there was at least as rewarding as the content I traveled to. I too have gotten hooked on the easier, casual gameplay and nostalgia is making me miss those “days gone by”.
(bold mine)
If you think that’s the emphasis, I think you’re confused and playing a different game that’s not actually GW2.
horizontal progression to me means more versatility without adding actual power that gives an advantage to other people.
Guild Wars 1 handled this very well whenever they added new skills each Campaign. The skills that were added were mostly not OP. Yes there were some and people loved to exploit them, but they got nerfed hard.
Since Anet made GW1 I think they can handle making new skills without making them extremely OP and exploitable, and if they do you know they can always give it the nerf bat in a quick update.
I support Rin’s comment. Thas how developers should think. GW2 tries to get both systems in one boat with the down leveling system. Maybe one time in the future they will change it. Maybe in GW3
Is there ANY mmorpg out there that really releases raiding/dungeon endgame on a regular basis (that is let’s say every two months)? I say no. Wildstar promissed but is dead now. Elder scrolls online promissed, went b2p recently. Even WoW doesn’t…had a short fallback a year ago…after siege of ogrimmar until the addon passed a year without new content.
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Is there ANY mmorpg out there that really releases raiding/dungeon endgame on a regular basis (that is let’s say every two months)? I say no. Wildstar promissed but is dead now. Elder scrolls online promissed, went b2p recently. Even WoW doesn’t…had a short fallback a year ago…after siege of ogrimmar until the addon passed a year without new content.
Raid focused games are focused on a tiny fraction of potential players, LOTRO publicly admitted that they stopped doing raids because the tiny percent who did them while vocal on the forums was not worth the time required.
It’s a poorly conceptualized article and I respect the persons opinion but he digs himself a hole in mentioning Ultima Online.
“The game didn’t suddenly switch gears on you and become something else or expect you to change your playstyle or daily activities. You pretty much kept doing what you were already doing.”
In fact, I don’t see how anyone could argue that Guild Wars 2 is more in line with his wants than any other game before it.
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focus on Dungeons, Fractals and Raiding.
focus on Dungeons, Fractals and Raiding.
Without endgame there’s nothing that takes a big investment of player skill left.
You’ve just got casuals mucking about and that will greatly tarnish the reputation of your game. Unless you want to be Farmville… in which case make a facebook game in the first place. The PC game audience will always be full of a lot of hardcore players though so I don’t see what the point of saying endgame doesn’t help. It’s what the platform audience wants.
Without endgame there’s nothing that takes a big investment of player skill left.
You’ve just got casuals mucking about and that will greatly tarnish the reputation of your game. Unless you want to be Farmville… in which case make a facebook game in the first place. The PC game audience will always be full of a lot of hardcore players though so I don’t see what the point of saying endgame doesn’t help. It’s what the platform audience wants.
I do not agree with your statement about endgame. Endgame does not equal a big investment of skill. Endgame equals content you have to wait for. Nothing more. In most MMO’s these days endgame tends to be the tougher content, by design, and that is why many players associate endgame with ‘hardcore’ content. But it doesn’t have to be that way. It’s just that we (players and devs) have been conditioned to believe that is the only way to do things.
You can add content that requires a big investment of skill at any point in a game, without it being restricted to endgame only. But it is often designed that way to act as a carrot, to keep you playing their game for as long as possible before you play the endgame, overcome the challenge then get bored and move on. It is not put in endgame because only max level, max gear, players are able to do it, it is put there to keep you in the game longer, because they are not confident the content will keep you entertained long enough.
A developer could design their game so that skilled content starts moment your character is created if they wanted to, but then there is the risk players won’t stay in their game once they beat the challenge. So they tend to go the easy (tried and tested) route and add progression mechanics to slow you down and keep you in the game longer.
Anet tried to do something new, but they did not fully commit to it and hence added a vertical numerical progression system (at least to start with). Maybe because they felt players weren’t ready to leave leveling behind or maybe because they weren’t confident their plan would work. But I believe now they are trying to rectify that with HoT, by only adding horizontal progression systems.
To clarify my view a little more, I would just like to add a comment to my previous post about progression. I do not believe there should be no progression at all in games, as working your way through that progression can be a lot of fun if it is done right. But I do feel that progression should not involve numbers in any way. Numbers are fine when it is showing skill damage or health, etc. But it should never be part of progression IMO. Watching numbers is boring, hunting down skills is fun, and can be made to be a lot more challenging than simply gaining more XP.
Games have endgame, and that is fine. People enjoy it and it makes companies lots of profit. But just once, I would love to see a company break the mold and make a game where the activities keep you playing, not the progression. GW2 has done a pretty decent job of it, but its not quite there yet. I am looking forward to seeing how HoT plays out, and hope it is more of a step in the right direction and not a step back to the standard MMO mold. But after reading the HoT features, and watching and reading Pax footage and interviews, my hopes are high.
I really, really, really wish that the max level had been 20.
It would be so much more fun to level to max in the starter zones, and every zone after that be max level. You would not even need the down level feature if that was the case, plus it would make areas tougher than when they are downleveled.
GW2 leveling feels like a number grind to max so that I can use traits. GW1 felt like way less of a grind even though you still had to find skills and get runes etc. after you were max level, because you were not focused on increasing a number, but rather focused on gaining new abilities (none of which were gated by a number).
To each his own I guess.
It’s a poorly conceptualized article and I respect the persons opinion but he digs himself a hole in mentioning Ultima Online.
“The game didn’t suddenly switch gears on you and become something else or expect you to change your playstyle or daily activities. You pretty much kept doing what you were already doing.”
In fact, I don’t see how anyone could argue that Guild Wars 2 is more in line with his wants than any other game before it.
The writer’s article wasn’t written specifically about GW2, in fact I don’t think they mention it. They were speaking about the MMO genre in general since WoW. I was relating that article to this expansion because of my concern that the mastery system might be adding a system that does nothing but gate content to slow progression.
I think leveling in GW2 is somewhat necessary since alot of people will start the game with the personal story and be hungry for more if they had instant access to the whole thing they would blow through it in a few days then sit around not bothering to enjoy the rest of the game and eventually leave.
Whereas having the PS gated with leveling will force players to stop and try the actual game so they can find out they like it enough to play for a long time.
I would say it’s more that the devs are confident in their content but safeguarding against people who would only do one thing then leave without trying anything else and complain there’s nothing to do; and I KNOW you know someone like that don’t pretend you don’t.
That said Anet could stand to update some lower lvl content in a meaningful way living story season 1 did an amazing job with that breathing new life into some older areas giving us a great experience.
Then it was all gone and everything went back to relative normality.
HoT looks amazing and I’m really looking forward to it but it’s geared towards max lvl which is fine the story has to advance and putting it at a lower level wouldn’t make any sense whatsoever.
But it reinforces the “endgame mentality” of rushing to lvl 80 and ignoring lower lvl content.
For the longevity of the game lower lvl areas/content should be updated in a lasting way to increase the considerably substantial replay value alot of it already has and more low to mid lvl accessible content has to be added.
For it to be truly lasting in my opinion it should be removed (not completely) from the living story going forward but given more consideration for it’s own merit.
What if we got PvE that’s not bad? ^^
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Alot of statement here presume that there is a dichotomy between leveling and “end game”. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I mean look at RuneScape. As much as you may hate it mechanically/graphically/functionally, it has millions of players because it gathers interests of a lot of different types of players in its perfect mix of exploration, leveling, questing and hardcore content.
It succeeds because leveling IS the the endgame. It just proves how wrong WS’s design philosophy (complete opposite of RS) was when they neglected the importance of leveling as a core part of an MMO. You don’t retent players by putting everything at the end or as Colin said in Pax “until you reach some mythical goal, where everything comes available to you”. The journey should be the goal, and hearing Anet acknowledging this makes me excited about their upcoming expansion.
I like that Article, it is alot of what I always wanted to say.
But I think Anet have succeded pretty good with not having the Usual Endgame content. Yesterday I wrote in a topic about endgame content where some say that End game content sucks in GW2 and some says there is so little End game content in the game and it is repetative. When I hear that I start to wonder what End game content really is and what it is in other games since they are few and repetative in GW2 so that must mean there are more and non-repetative end game content in other MMO’s.
Well I always thought that The final dungeons for every expansion was the end game content and that it was about to farm it over and over again to get the best gear… That sounds like little End Game content and very repetative. So enlighten me pls.
HoT looks amazing and I’m really looking forward to it but it’s geared towards max lvl which is fine the story has to advance and putting it at a lower level wouldn’t make any sense whatsoever.
But it reinforces the “endgame mentality” of rushing to lvl 80 and ignoring lower lvl content.For the longevity of the game lower lvl areas/content should be updated in a lasting way to increase the considerably substantial replay value alot of it already has and more low to mid lvl accessible content has to be added.
For it to be truly lasting in my opinion it should be removed (not completely) from the living story going forward but given more consideration for it’s own merit.
I could have dreamed it and I don’t have time to brows through everything said about HoT atm. But I have a fealing I read somewhere that they said that alot of the Expac content will have effect on the old maps aswell… Hmmm… I think it was about collections. We don’t know everything that will come maby there will be more less interesting content for the old zones. But even so I think people with this End Game mentality will rush to the end anyway. I have friends who did it when GW2 released, they leveled to level 80 in about a week and then they said ‘What now?’ and quit. They didn’t try jumping puzzles, WvW, PvP, any Explorer dungeon they only did Story dungeons, they didn’t even finnish the personal story. I was self new at that moment so I couldnt tell them What now, I was only level 35 and exploring the world.
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(edited by EdgarMTanaka.7291)
I couldn’t ever hope to say it better myself, and as AOL closes Joystiq and Massively I think it’s appropriate to let them have the last word on this. I just wish someone at ArneaNet read this article:
I know some of you will argue that this horizontal progression is different. All I can say is I disagree, it feels like just the latest take on linear progression to me.
Whether you agree or not, it’s still a great read from a source that should not be shut down!
As I first read the topic I was like, yeah, I’m gonna break this hater… Now I feel lost, empty, and naked in the dark. The writer is so right. Why can no one make a game that is simply focused on being FUN? Scrap the whole level thing, scrap everything related endgame, and make a game that is viable from the first second you start playing it.
Alot of statement here presume that there is a dichotomy between leveling and “end game”. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I mean look at RuneScape. As much as you may hate it mechanically/graphically/functionally, it has millions of players because it gathers interests of a lot of different types of players in its perfect mix of exploration, leveling, questing and hardcore content.
It succeeds because leveling IS the the endgame. It just proves how wrong WS’s design philosophy (complete opposite of RS) was when they neglected the importance of leveling as a core part of an MMO. You don’t retent players by putting everything at the end or as Colin said in Pax “until you reach some mythical goal, where everything comes available to you”. The journey should be the goal, and hearing Anet acknowledging this makes me excited about their upcoming expansion.
I agree, the journey should be the main goal, and I also agree that Anet seems to be heading in the right direction in this regard.
I think the whole leveling endgame thing tends to fail for many games because leveling becomes the main focus. So much of a focus in fact that the content you take part in while leveling gets missed or not really appreciated, because all the player is concerned with is gaining XP so they can quickly get to and play the perceived ‘fun’ content.
Another problem with many leveling systems in games is the problem of content being fleeting and being outleveled. Because a lot of content is level based in many games, the moment you out level a piece of content you enjoy, it becomes too easy and loses its appeal. That challenging boss you enjoyed fighting at level 20 is now a walk in the park, and not so much fun anymore.
Anet tried to fix that with down scaling, but so far it has not been that successful. It is a great idea, but it needs some serious improvement if they truely want to open the entire world up for max level characters. Hopefully they will keep balancing this system in the future, because I think it is a system well worth improving.
That’s what I liked about Guild Wars 1.
90%+ of the content was the real game, the levelling to max process being short and merely serving as a tutorial. You didn’t have to worry about a levelling grind, because at most it took a few hours to max level, opposed to days or weeks in other MMOs. And getting the best gear was incredibly cheap. You could just focus on having fun, rather than grinding to get to max level+gear.
The grind to max level in Guild Wars 2 is way too high. It may be fun the first 1, 2… maybe 3 times, but after that you just want to get to get it over with as fast as possible. I just want to do my dungeons and get maxed out gear on new characters (GL running dungeons with low level characters in subpar gear), but in order to get to that point I first need to spend ages levelling up in the explorable zones I’ve already been through a dozen times.
Just who the hell do you think I am!?
I think leveling in GW2 is somewhat necessary since alot of people will start the game with the personal story and be hungry for more if they had instant access to the whole thing they would blow through it in a few days then sit around not bothering to enjoy the rest of the game and eventually leave.
Whereas having the PS gated with leveling will force players to stop and try the actual game so they can find out they like it enough to play for a long time.
I would say it’s more that the devs are confident in their content but safeguarding against people who would only do one thing then leave without trying anything else and complain there’s nothing to do; and I KNOW you know someone like that don’t pretend you don’t.That said Anet could stand to update some lower lvl content in a meaningful way living story season 1 did an amazing job with that breathing new life into some older areas giving us a great experience.
Then it was all gone and everything went back to relative normality.HoT looks amazing and I’m really looking forward to it but it’s geared towards max lvl which is fine the story has to advance and putting it at a lower level wouldn’t make any sense whatsoever.
But it reinforces the “endgame mentality” of rushing to lvl 80 and ignoring lower lvl content.For the longevity of the game lower lvl areas/content should be updated in a lasting way to increase the considerably substantial replay value alot of it already has and more low to mid lvl accessible content has to be added.
For it to be truly lasting in my opinion it should be removed (not completely) from the living story going forward but given more consideration for it’s own merit.
IIRC they are expanding the mastery system to all other zones, not just the new areas within magumma, and they are going to fix a few minor things about leveling and such. The content at end game will be there, and there are going to be many reasons to go back to low level areas. Collections is one, another is going to be a Legendary, with the precursor scavenger hunt, and then world completion(also part of legendary making), guild missions etc.
Reth Grimrazor – Charr Guardian – [GWB]Grim Warband – Tarnished Coast
Redgen Furyblaze – Charr Guardian – [SHD]Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast
Lerious Warhowl – Charr Warrior – [SHD] Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast
Redgen Furyblaze – Charr Guardian – [SHD]Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast
Lerious Warhowl – Charr Warrior – [SHD] Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast
All the speculation on what the new systems are going to do or not do is a waste of bandwidth….we don’t know yet.
Plucking out one statement and nitpicking it as a display for “GW2 DEVS LIE!” is just petty. If you truly feel that way, why are you here and surely you aren’t still playing the game?
Some of you that are complaining about GW2’s “endgame” do not appear to have a clear grasp of other MMOs (that were being hammered by that article) endgame and gear progression treadmill actually work. NOBODY in GW2 is gear gated out of any content (save mid to higher level Fractals).
You can level up a character to 80 and get full Exotics in less than 24 game hours without any problems and are then set to do 95% of the content in the game. Personally, I’m not crazy about that fact (as it minimizes what I consider the best part of the game….leveling), but it’s certainly NOT a situation that forces a completely different game mode / experience on anyone to enjoy the game at the max level.
To me, THAT is a good thing,. If you don’t agree with that philosophy to some degree, maybe you are playing the wrong game (and there are plenty of others out there to let you gear treadmill to your hearts content).
If you cannot see how GW2’s “endgame” is different, you need to investigate some other MMOs to see just how different it is. If you don’t like GW2’s endgame, there are options out there for you to play.
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
(edited by Brother Grimm.5176)
Levelling can’t last forever, and additional modes of progression can’t hold players interests indefinitely. Endgame is an intrinsic part of any MMO.
I do understand the “the game shouldn’t start at endgame” sentiment though. Honestly, GW2 does a lot right in that regard. Level scaling, giving purpose to over levelled quests, dungeons and bosses available at many levels, PVP not locked out to those who haven’t gotten the right gear in PVE.
The leveling system in GW2 is merely a glorified tutorial. Yes, it doesn’t do a perfect job (most fresh level 80 bearbows are scary), but it’s simply meant to teach you how to play and introduce to the setting. To add to that, it is (IMO) a very enjoyable tutorial, which can be (largely) skipped by veteran players.
The fact that GW2 is stepping away from gear treadmill (as per announcement), makes me even more excited about the game finally answering ’what do you do once your players reach level cap? ’ question correctly. The previous answer (make the player run in the hamster wheel) that is so prevalent in MMO genre since EQ1 really has to go.
Whether GW2 will be able to maintain the interest using horizontal + skill progression coupled with Living Story over long term remains to be seen, but for now I remain optimistic.
All the speculation on what the new systems are going to do or not do is a waste of bandwidth….we don’t know yet.
Plucking out one statement and nitpicking it as a display for “GW2 DEVS LIE!” is just petty. If you truly feel that way, why are you here and surely you aren’t still playing the game?
Some of you that are complaining about GW2’s “endgame” do not appear to have a clear grasp of other MMOs (that were being hammered by that article) endgame and gear progression treadmill actually work. NOBODY in GW2 is gear gated out of any content (save mid to higher level Fractals).
You can level up a character to 80 and get full Exotics in less than 24 game hours without any problems and are then set to do 95% of the content in the game. Personally, I’m not crazy about that fact (as it minimizes what I consider the best part of the game….leveling), but it’s certainly NOT a situation that forces a completely different game mode / experience on anyone to enjoy the game at the max level.
To me, THAT is a good thing,. If you don’t agree with that philosophy to some degree, maybe you are playing the wrong game (and there are plenty of others out there to let you gear treadmill to your hearts content).
If you cannot see how GW2’s “endgame” is different, you need to investigate some other MMOs to see just how different it is. If you don’t like GW2’s endgame, there are options out there for you to play.
I might have missed something, but I don’t think anyone here said GW devs lied.