Guild Wars 2

This thread is meant as feedback for ANet, seeing I have been playing since GW1 beta, and been a vivid GW player, I think I should at least give them some insight as to why I decided to leave. Feel free to leave any kind of respectful comment

So at the end of last year the final straw broke for me, the total mystery of class balance broke the build I was finally starting to come to terms with. And for no apparent reason, that I could see, especially when comparing the build to some of the builds I was up against, and were left mostly untouched. This wasn’t the first time, this had happened, but this time it did add up to all the other things that were coming along, and all the things that frustrated me already about GW2…

So what frustrates me about GW2 besides the class imbalance actions taken :
- The total lack of character progression and skill customization I felt for nearly 1.5y
Now HoT may address this in a way discussed in the CDI’s on this topic, and while some aspects sure sounded like it addresses this issue, I am left with the feeling that it might just not be enough. 1 heal, 4 utility and an elite … I have over 300 skill points, that progression will take approximately 34.6sec, of unlocking the druid.

Another thing is the lack of customization, and I do not mean armour, I mean the choices I have to express myself through the choices that make up my skills. In this sense I my frustration centres mostly around ’Winter’s Bite’ on the Axe. Why? I am a Sylvari coming from the jungle, what sense does ‘Winters Bite’ make. Sure I understand that skill from a ‘Norn Axe wielder’ going for an Ice theme. But it makes ‘me’ shudder that I do not have any choices in regards to a theme that makes sense for the character I want to play.

- The total wrong approach to the ‘scaling system’.
I have tried this several times now, but lvl80 players totally ruin the gaming experience for lower level players. The scaling system was ‘said’ to be in place to give a valuable gaming experience in all area’s to players regardless of level, but it is not … I am not sure where to point the finger, but from my perspective somebody at ANet is putting the needs of their ego (I want to feel powerful) in front of the need of the game. This frustrates me a lot, and GW2/ANet sticking to this conservative attitude is very disappointing to me.

- The HUGE amount of USELESS REWARDS to ridiculous proportions.
To this is added the Farmville log on reward. I will be honest, where I stated that the nerv broke ‘the camels back’, this sure did not help and added to my decision to just ‘log off for now’ … really, the large amount of useless stuff thrown at ‘us’ leaves me to feel offended mostly. As if more and more crap actually entices me to keep logging on. While I did log on for ‘Wintersday’, this only strengthened my resolve to ‘stay out of GW for a while’. Why? In 30min I got a huge pile of boxes, which had a huge amount of useless stuff in it, and even more boxes with even more useless stuff, that had bags with even more useless stuff. I did not feel rewarded, I felt intellectually offended…

Where farming wintersday made actual sense in GW1, and piles and piles of wintersday presents made for a 6months (‘wintersday in july’) of valuable items for giveaways and parties, as well as the content within those boxes (6 or so items) made for the same. Now wintersday felt like a shower of waste…

And when the ‘congratulations you logged on’ was added to this, I started pulling out my hair! Perhaps the lesson here is. People play a game for valuable experiences and useful loot, actually feeling rewarded for their time and effort. GW2 ended in scoffing with my efforts to a point where even ‘logging on’ should apparently be rewarded. Welcome to ‘Guildville 2.0’

I will take a deep breath now and go for a smoke, as the frustration over these things is building up to a point where I may no longer be supplying actual feedback

-> nicotine levels up, a hot choco (codeine), and a honey-waffle (bloodsugar), will tone down frustrations, lets continue …

- The 180 degree turn on living story content, and the content therein
While the large scale open world content left me stressed, and the speed at which it came left hardly any time to explore the rest of the game in the time available for me to play. The entire 180 degree shift towards instanced content, some of which neigh impossible to complete as a single player (by word of some of my friends), has left me somewhat unimpressed. Couple this with the amount of content available in these chapters, for me mostly completed in one gaming session. After which in general all that is left is farming the content for useless rewards; or, doing it all again for the challenges.

Now I like a challenge, but I hate tedious repetition. And while I can be enticed to repeat something for a challenge or reward, that tends to be for A. Rewards that are actually valuable to me (aka. dungeon armour), or B. to appeal to my medium urge for completion. Aka. if some of the challenges were to unlock during a play through, the completionist in me would want to get the others too. But seeing I do not complete a challenge on the first play through, there isn’t really anything to complete. And the resistance to the idea to do it all again wins over ‘completing’ something that as of now is an entirely uncompleted state, perfectly uncompleted…

I still have hopes for Tyria and GW2 that you will find a good intermediate between an open world experience for the regular players of GW, combined with meaningful instances and possibly even choice within them. To leave an interesting replay for those that come there after, where the open world content might be used as a cinematic backdrop to give context to the events of the replay. Perhaps HoT will bring this along.

For now I have 4 chapters saved up, to play through, both for giving me some actual content to do when I feel like it, but also to evaluate whether or not I can actually do the content now that most (if not all) the players have moved on to ‘greener pastures’. Perhaps if I ever find the urge to actually play, I might shed some light on this…

- Character Setup, Stats, Traits, Skills;
I have long since abandoned the idea to maximize my character output, no longer care one bit about stats. Traits seem to be a mediocre execution of providing choice, where most of the time it just feels like there is no choice, as certain traits are ever so specific to the skills you slot. And the skills offer no real reason to experiment (leaving out ‘customize’ as I already addressed it) with ‘builds’.

And I can’t but reflect on GW1, a simple yet elegant stat system, with true and actually valuable choices to be made in regards to skills. Sure GW2 isn’t GW1, but in this sense I think the baby has been thrown out with the bathing water, and a sup-par WoW stat system has been implemented for the sake of what? … It is NOT the build or stats that determine your effectiveness, it’s the ups and downs of the ‘balance commission’, that through it’s actions determine the flavour of the month. The build to have… There are no real choices to be made, as certain skills go best with certain traits that go best with certain stats.

And who wants to do optimization math on their free time anyways? Sure optimization is part of gaming, but just look at the amount of stats… to me its a completely overcomplicated mess, that takes away from what truly should matter, the setup and execution of your build…

In end closing, my view on GW2 is such:
1. It is the best looking game out there so far, and I hold the ANet Art, Creature and Environment artists in high regards. Same goes with Armour (although there is never enough), and Weapons (even though I have not found the Axe of my dreams).

2. It has above standard content design, really, there weren’t many events or hearts that felt they were a true double of something already in the game. The context almost always felt right, and while mileage might differ as far as ‘fun’ goes in regards to the various things to be done. They are mostly done very well, and without much buggery.

3. But, the actual game, the thing that if you strip all of GW2 away to it’s bare essentials that you could put into any other environment and call it ‘a game’. Those leave (to me) much to be desired. They are substandard, in some instances even lame (rewards come to mind here, less is more… not more is more). They make the experience tedious. And if you couple that with the most of the time not understandable actions of the balancing committee, I’m just not having fun anymore when I log on…

So what does that mean for HoT, and can it bring me back?

Well that depends a lot on whether or not it is worth the money for me. Sure the Druid sounds appealing, but I already addressed that above. And the new profession does nothing to the feeling of flavour ot month feel the professions already have. It does nothing for the various builds and professions that are completely sup-par due to the FotM approach.

The new WvW map sounds like fun, as well as the changes coming to defending. WvW was actually a main part of my GW2 diet. But if there is no change to stagnant match ups, as well as the ‘coverage wars’, or some sort of ‘fairness’, it will just be another map that comes with the same problems we are already aware off.

Some other features are just fine, but not really a reason to come back … so I will keep halve an eye on the development of this expansion… but something tells me that some things will just not change, and will stay in the frustrating and subpar state they are in now…

Still though, tnx you ANet for years of great fun, moments and friends. I will not be a stranger, just no longer a regular. I am setting off into the world of gaming, venturing onto other worlds and games in hopes of finding something that is just right for me. And who knows, you may well be the best that is out there, and seeing I will not settle for less … I might well have to settle for w/e that is …

feel i have to add this last thought, else it be lingering in my mind, as it has been for a long time…
In GW1 you build a great game, and ‘we’ found very few ways to reward you for it, as it had so little ways to give you our money. In GW2 you build in ways for us to give you our money, but instead of focussing on a great game, you seem to focus on how you can get us to give you as much money as possible
While that may not be true in the way you perceive your efforts, it is though how some of the ways in which you handle the game comes across to me…

Ok…Im not gonna lie I read the first paragraph…sorta….

But….

Since you are leaving and what not..

Can I please have your stuff…

Or at least your materiels <_<…

@Solori, at least read the last, and you will find your answer…

Yeah, that was a bit much for me. I skipped to the end of the first one, for Guildville, but once I realized the next two were more of this, I tuned out. I don’t see any reason why HoT should bring you back. The problems of GW2 at this stage will still be the same. The things HoT is bringing don’t seem to address your issues with the base game.

I’m going to be frank, you put up a huge wall of text that does little to say more then “because I don’t like it”. It’s difficult to even address your post because it’s so large and vacuous. Reads more like a rant then feedback, so you might want to do some work refining it.

Also (humorously), what in the world is a GW1 player doing complaining about GW2 balance :P

Arghore.8340:

@Solori, at least read the last, and you will find your answer…

So is that a maybe? :P

@Kal Spiro, well if the specialization system would actually involve some valuable choices, and new ways to build and experiment, if the way the chapters are added comes somewhat in the way i described. If WvW changes are more then just a new map. And if the precursor quests and legendary offer valuable content as well as an Axe/Staff i just have to have. If rewards start to become more valuable and less plenty full. If the scaling system is revamped to actually offer a valuable gaming experience in lower level maps. As well as more builds/professions becoming balanced to a point where balance team FotM builds become a thing of the past. Perhaps even a split between PvP and PvE/WvW skill functionality.

Then likely i can live with ignoring the stats, picking just a certain setup (like i did now) and enjoy the game for what it has to offer. I mean, if i put it that way i don’t seem to ask for unreasonable things that would make the game worse … but all these things piled up over time for me and at some point it just snapped, and if i log on i feel this same frustration build up leaving me with a horrible experience. That should not be how to spend my free time…

But just leaving felt wrong to me, as i have enjoyed and supported GW for such a long time, this way at least i can give a well formulated ‘why’ so maybe ANet can understand it, and perhaps see how their ideas turned me away instead of made me log on more…

Solori.6025:

Arghore.8340:

@Solori, at least read the last, and you will find your answer…

So is that a maybe? :P

More then likely, if i decide that HoT is not for me, i will donate most my stuff to PinkDay in LA 2015. It will give everybody a fair chance of winning it, and it will support a good cause in the process… mark it in your calendar for October … i will be there too.

I doubt very much HoT will bring you back if those are the issues that turned you off the game, particularly if you feel so strongly about it that you felt the need to snipe at some random ANet employee (regarding their “ego”).

I wish you the best in whatever game you move on to, but allow me to suggest a single player game or MOBA, because any other MMO is going to disappoint you in much the same way.

@Pandaman, seeing these things are decided upon not by one random Anet Employee I did not snipe, but i will admit that by that sentence my frustration/disappointment of these thing was reaching emotional levels… but also, i wouldn’t know how else to formulate that part…

That is why I ended my feedback the way I did, i have already ventured into some other MMO’s and some show clear lack in certain area’s. It may well be that GW2 is ‘the best’ MMO out there in regards to what i want in an MMO, this would mean i would not have to settle for less than ‘the best’ but i would have to settle for what ‘the best’ entices.

Solori.6025:

Ok…Im not gonna lie I read the first paragraph…sorta….

But….

Since you are leaving and what not..

Can I please have your stuff…

Or at least your materiels <_<…

Kitten this! Why am I always the last person to come across these threads! I want free stuff as well!

Seems like more moaning about l2p- well rah rah.
Give all your stuff away feel good – go play outside !

Darkness.9732:

I’m thinking of quitting too.
I play ranger and it’ s the most broken class in this game.
No survival skills, pets are simply useless ( they die istantly). I hoped for a balance that never came to this game. ( example : a warrior hitted me few days ago with an 11k eviscerate burst skill…if this is not unbalance well tell me what it is).
I doubt things will change for ranger class.
But I will be honest if they make ranger decent in the next expansion I will definetly buy it. If they don’t…I’ ll save my money XD

And you still wouldn’t know how to play it. My advice to you is…well I don’t have any since you don’t know how to take any. Just give it up.

I’d like to point out that most of your feedback, isn’t really feedback, other than your dislike for it. It’s sometimes pretty hard to see what you would like to see instead.

Other than that, I don’t really see a point in “quitting” the game. But playing less, yeah I’m pretty sure I’m already doing that. Mostly doing just dailies and logging in. AS the Expansion comes out I will simply play that.

There’s no real reason to quit, other than to take a break every so often.

I agree on some points though, Especially with the whole loot fests and such things. The game has taken a turn towards farming and rewarding as opposed to giving a great experience. I don’t need to get a reward at every turn. Hell even treasure seeking in the silverwastes is basically running from node to node (to even more nodes). While the events in itself are pretty fun, there’s always the notion of needing to get the rewards. GW2 is so reward focussed that you’re bombarded with rewards at every turn. Which in turn dumbs down any even slightly rewarding encounter because a zerg is stomping it.

All wintersday long I have been cleaning my inventory, for example. I think I saw my inventory more than any wintersday activities. ANd with attached and unnescesary achievements attached to uninteresting tasks it makes that feeling even stronger. Wintersday is just there to grind.

The only fun thing was the Star of gratitude questline. Which of course is account bound, because god forbid you doing the more story driven stuff more than once.
Which is no doubt because the reward for it was so heavily account based. Which again is a reason why the whole reward system is just annoying.

The only place where I feel they did sort of a good job with the rewards is PvP. Which is also the only dailies which feel worth doing.

WvW is too stale for me. It’s just flipping objectives the fastest mode. Won the battle and flipped an objective? Bam battle done, come back in a few minutes when you can actually take it back again, because gee why keep fighting over the same objective.

But that’s what I feel is the problem with most things in GW2, it tries to appease too many people rather than having it’s own character.

I also agree with the whole scaling system. That system should be done way more aggressively. People don’t need to be reminded they are in a zone below their level by that much. The sense of progression shouldn’t be coming from how easy you can defeat a monster in a low level zone, but it should come from experience.

Darkness.9732:

I’m thinking of quitting too.
I play ranger and it’ s the most broken class in this game.
No survival skills, pets are simply useless ( they die istantly). I hoped for a balance that never came to this game. ( example : a warrior hitted me few days ago with an 11k eviscerate burst skill…if this is not unbalance well tell me what it is).
I doubt things will change for ranger class.
But I will be honest if they make ranger decent in the next expansion I will definetly buy it. If they don’t…I’ ll save my money XD

Darkness the broken record…..

Arghore.8340:

The HUGE amount of USELESS REWARDS to ridiculous proportions.

+100000

I tried reading the whole thing OP, but after the first post was just a rant about “how your build was broken” I gave up. If you played GW1 you would know just how many times we had to change builds because of balance “fix’s”. It’s part and parcel of any MMO. Skills change and so do builds. Just suck it up and adapted like everyone else. So your not coming back, so? Why would anyone care? All you’ve said is how you don’t like this or that. If you had said I don’t like this, I think it would be better if you did that or this, maybe I’d care and so would ANet. Maybe you did in he 2nd or 3rd post, but the first post full of you just throwing a tantrum just made me tune out.

I will never understand why people think publicly announcing their departure deserves attention.

In a nutshell, you aren’t happy with the way the game is – as you’ve stated for the most part it is sub-standard (in certain areas). As it doesn’t live up to your expectation. And you see that the devs aren’t going to be addressing the issues any time, so this in turn has put you off the game from playing or spending any required time on it. But you are living in some hope that the new expansion will address these issues of yours. So in the mean time, you will be looking at other games, that do meet your expectation.
_________

If that’s how you feel, then that is your right to feel that way. Best of luck in finding other game(s) that will meet your expectation. Some folks on here (who have declared their intensions of leaving publicly) have gone on to other games. I generally don’t see them post on here that often anymore.

Arghore.8340:

@Pandaman, seeing these things are decided upon not by one random Anet Employee I did not snipe, but i will admit that by that sentence my frustration/disappointment of these thing was reaching emotional levels… but also, i wouldn’t know how else to formulate that part…

That is why I ended my feedback the way I did, i have already ventured into some other MMO’s and some show clear lack in certain area’s. It may well be that GW2 is ‘the best’ MMO out there in regards to what i want in an MMO, this would mean i would not have to settle for less than ‘the best’ but i would have to settle for what ‘the best’ entices.

Actually this is a problem with the core mechanics of the actual MMOs. Because they use the same “respawn at the same place” mechanics they encourage the players to farm.
Because the content it’s actually fully scripted once is being done it misses the excitement of the first time. So when you’ve done once they only thing that could make you go back is to promise more prices.
This always degenerate to lazy players that only are looking to maximizing the reward intead enyoing the game. Perfect example of this we have it with triple trouble, if the encounter seems a little bit hard the players will dissapear going for easier world bosses.With this roten mechanics the first to leave are the core players. Then eventually the casual players stop loging in to end up with the farming players leaving because there is not enough player base to get the bigger rewards.
I think because of the “loggin in rewards” we are in the second stage already.

As i pointed a couple of times in the forum already i think this is an easy task to fix. In HoT making the morden enemies to behave like an actual army, leting an RTS engine to take over the morden. Instead making them respawn, let the RTS to make the units in the forts and make them travel to conquer other locations.
To giv addional deepness to the world the same engine should handle over the allies. So there could be like an actual fight between factions where the player can take part and feel like he is playing in an actual living world.

Not any more spawning, if you clear a zone is nice to see it cleared for some time, like an special reward especially if your help make possible for the allies to stablish a fort or advanced outpost.
The events should be linked to a mobile enemy, not to a place like are now. So players could get involved with the NPCs for information of the whereabouts of some kind of enemy or be called in help to deffend a city under siege.

That’s about history progressing. About the players the ability to customize the skills in sort of variety that could be learnt or adquired not only as utilities but also different weapons skills.

This would ask more involvement from the programming departament but also could give a new oportunities for the gem store. Instead useless outfits and minis, who wouldn’t like to have an skills with diferent apperance so your character not only would be unique with the looks but also within combat?

Same as the skins the could sell skills with the same effects as other that could be learned but with a differents skin.

For all of this i only see good things and the only drawback is that they would have to get actually involved with all the team to make this possible.

Gnat.9405:

I will never understand why people think publicly announcing their departure deserves attention.

its feedback. If i would be a dev i would actually welcome this (heck i dunno about a-net but atleast I would)…cause i sorta can see what people like and dislike and can collect that info to have something to work with. Sure…1 guy leaving the game or complaining about a certain issue is like a water drop on a hot stone, but lets say (seriosly random number) 500 people “complain” about the same thing you will start to see a pattern that can\could be used as a guideline for the future. A well written and explained “im leaving” topic is just as valuable like a suggestion reply in a CDI imo. Also you can easily skip these topics by just not looking at them

Basaltface.2786:

Gnat.9405:

I will never understand why people think publicly announcing their departure deserves attention.

its feedback. If i would be a dev i would actually welcome this (heck i dunno about a-net but atleast I would)…cause i sorta can see what people like and dislike and can collect that info to have something to work with. Sure…1 guy leaving the game or complaining about a certain issue is like a water drop on a hot stone, but lets say (seriosly random number) 500 people “complain” about the same thing you will start to see a pattern that can\could be used as a guideline for the future. A well written and explained “im leaving” post is just as valuable like a suggestion in a CDI imo. Also you can easily skip these topics by just not looking at them :)

I’m almost 100% positive that people can actually leave feedback and say they like or don’t like something without also saying they’re leaving. Watch.

I’m leaving because I don’t like the loot system. I never feel like I’m getting anywhere.

I don’t like the loot system, I never feel like I’m getting anywhere.

Both of these lines give the exact same info. It doesn’t help that so many people say they’re leaving and never actually leave. We know this because devs told us this.

Basaltface.2786:

Gnat.9405:

I will never understand why people think publicly announcing their departure deserves attention.

its feedback. If i would be a dev i would actually welcome this (heck i dunno about a-net but atleast I would)…cause i sorta can see what people like and dislike and can collect that info to have something to work with. Sure…1 guy leaving the game or complaining about a certain issue is like a water drop on a hot stone, but lets say (seriosly random number) 500 people “complain” about the same thing you will start to see a pattern that can\could be used as a guideline for the future. A well written and explained “im leaving” topic is just as valuable like a suggestion reply in a CDI imo. Also you can easily skip these topics by just not looking at them

I guarantee you no dev is going to read 3 essays worth of “I’m quitting” thread.

Gnat.9405:

Basaltface.2786:

Gnat.9405:

I will never understand why people think publicly announcing their departure deserves attention.

its feedback. If i would be a dev i would actually welcome this (heck i dunno about a-net but atleast I would)…cause i sorta can see what people like and dislike and can collect that info to have something to work with. Sure…1 guy leaving the game or complaining about a certain issue is like a water drop on a hot stone, but lets say (seriosly random number) 500 people “complain” about the same thing you will start to see a pattern that can\could be used as a guideline for the future. A well written and explained “im leaving” topic is just as valuable like a suggestion reply in a CDI imo. Also you can easily skip these topics by just not looking at them

I guarantee you no dev is going to read 3 essays worth of “I’m quitting” thread.

No, that’s why exists the job of helpdesk/consultants. He/she should be the one that decides if there is an actually something to send over the developers.
I’m a dev as well and this kind of input is very valuable, to detect bugs and misconfigurations but also to improve the program. Some people even could give hints to improve the software that could lead to the company’s growth.

Not having anyone to fill that role and ignoring this kind of topics will lead your company to the same point that WoW stands now.

As Vayne said, posting as an “I quit” thread destroys the credibility of the post. There have been hundreds of threads closed simply because “I quit” was in the title. “I quit” makes your whole post completely anecdotal and three pages worth of it won’t help.

I am not sure where to point the finger, but from my perspective somebody at ANet is putting the needs of their ego (I want to feel powerful) in front of the need of the game.

Insulting staff will definitely not help. You also offered no suggestions as to how to make improvements to the systems that you so apparently don’t care for. You completely ignored ANet’s guidelines on how to give feedback, yet you feel they should respect your complaints? You’re going to get what you give, and I don’t think it’s hard to see what exactly that is.

I suggest you refer to this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-to-Give-Good-Feedback

It does seem rather silly that you start your post with:

Feel free to leave any kind of respectful comment

And then goes on with a long rant that is not really all that respectful yourself..

lordkrall.7241:

It does seem rather silly that you start your post with:

Feel free to leave any kind of respectful comment

And then goes on with a long rant that is not really all that respectful yourself..

My thoughts exactly. Quit reading when he started complaining about a specific weapon skill not making sense for his particular racial choice…..I think that was 3 paragraphs in so less than 5% of his lengthy rant.

Good luck to the OP finding another game to nitpick to death….

I interpreted this as “Old wounds reopened on a former GW1 player”. Which I am also a former GW1 player, I might add, AND whose account and main character was there at the beginning as well. In addition to 7+ years of GvG. Let’s be realistic here. A different player base was targeted and modeled for. With HoT, I think they are trying to find some type of middle ground to bring some of us who were GW1 PvP and PvE’ers back. Strongholds, with the current game mechanic, MAY BE the closest to real GW1 GvG there is. We will know for sure once they start more reveals about the expansion.

OP, I read your posts. In it there are somethings I will not comment on. The instancing of story elements for example feels more preference than feedback, as I personally preferred the story to be instanced.

I also won’t comment of scaling, as this has been given as feedback many times over by many players and via many threads. Anet should be aware there is a scaling problem by now, so I see no need to add to this when I have commented on it elsewhere already.

As to the rewards being useless. To some degree I agree with you, but I do feel it is more a perception issue than an actual issue with loot. For example, throughout my play I get tons of blues and greens, which are no use to any of my characters because they are all geared in exotics or ascended. But they are not completely useless. I can either sell them on the TP for gold or salvage them for materials. Excluding the junk items, which I personally do not see the point of (but I guess that is why they have added collections), you can usually make use of most things, even if it is just a small boost to your wealth. If a green sword pays for my next couple of waypoints, then it has been useful. So in this regard I feel your hatred of the loot system in GW2 is another preference issue.

I’d also like to add, if you got that ‘Oh wow! I got some amazing loot’ from every champion or boss you fought, that feeling of joy at getting something special would soon wear off if you got that special loot on a regular basis.

The other point you made, and this to me seemed to be your main gripe, was to do with build customization.

I too was a long time GW1 player. I started not long after launch and loved the game immensely. It had some great features and the build customization was huge. However, while the number of available skills did indeed allow you to create a large variety of different builds, the vast majority of those builds were subpar. Out of the thousands of build combinations available you only really had a handful of truly effective (meta) builds.

Personally, I have found the build customization in GW2 extremely satisfying (with the exception of condition builds in PvE group content), and a lot better than it was in GW1. You may have fewer builds available to each profession, but the number and variety of effective builds is much greater. Don’t forget, skills alone do not make your build. You must also consider your attribute points (from gear) and your traits, if you truly want to explore the full potential of build making in GW2. If you ignore stats and traits, then that is your own limitation, but they are an integral part of any build. Ignore them at your peril. I’d also add that despite what a lot of people seem to think, I have found several effective builds on all 8 professions and covering a variety of different roles, from pure damage, to support, to control, though most of the time the more effective builds are those that are hybrid: damage+control or control+support.

Continues next post…

…

As to the meta. There has been and always will be meta builds. This is not an indication that there are pointless skills, it just indicates what is the most effective combination for the majority of the playerbase. Players will always strive to find the most effective builds, and there is nothing any developer can do to stop this without making all skills equal and boring.

You CAN create your own (non-meta) builds, and you CAN be effective with them. The biggest problem I see people make, when it comes to making builds, is focusing only on what skills, traits and gear to choose, so they can be as effective as possible. But there is often one element to build making that they miss or forget. And that is whether the build fits their playstyle. When I say playstyle I do not mean whether they prefer damage or control or support. I mean whether the build clicks with the way you prefer to move your character and use your skills.

Do you prefer reactive or proactive skills? Do you prefer evasive ‘always moving’ combat or more stationary blocking/blinding/protection builds? A build could be the best bunker block/protection build in the game, as per the current meta, but if it doesn’t suit the way you play and the way you like to control and move your character and use your skills, you will not be able to get the most out of the build. I am a true believer in the idea that a skilled player with a unique, non-meta, build that fits their playstyle well can easily defeat a skilled player using a meta build that doesn’t quite fit their playstyle. Having a build fit the way you like to play is very important and I see a lot of players ignore that.

This does however remain a problem for some. Some players, and this is not a negative comment about them, like to create a specific theme for their character, but cannot make a build that fits their playerstyle and that theme. For example, it will be difficult to make a good evasive guardian build. Not impossible, but no where near as easy as it will be to make an evasive thief. So because they cannot create a build to fit both playstyle and theme they lose interest in the build customization.

I am sorry that you do not get as much enjoyment out of the game as you’d like, and it is a shame that you see the game the way you do. But at the end of the day, and I hate to use this cliche, if you do not enjoy the game then it may simply not be the game for you.

Anyway, I hope when HoT comes out you find that spark again and get some enjoyment out of it. And if not, I hope you find a game that suits you better.

Tnx to those that responded with understanding and argumented responses as to why they do or do not agree with the points I bring up. While part of me wants to ignore the less constructive replies, I also think that if I give some context as to why I formulated this thread as I did might create some understanding (at least I hope).

GW has been my gaming live for the past 7+ years, while I game with a more casual approach I’ve been a hardcore GW player for all this time. But besides playing, I have also been an active community member for numerous years, I’ve been part of organizing after parties for the Halloween and Wintersday Art Contests, organized the founding party of GuildMag and contributed to various of the first editions. Been a volunteer for numerous other player organized events. And seeing my interest in gaming and product development (due to university study topics) I have contributed to a large number of feedback and suggestion threads over the years. I have met various Dev’s personally at GamesCon in Germany …

And the above is not to boast about all I have done, look at me be important… it is to explain that I have had a huge investment in this game, and that deciding to quit is not something that was as easy for me as just installing another game. I also felt that due to the years I been involved with GW (and the fun I had), I owed ANet an explanation as to the why. And yes that did come with frustration, disappointment and emotion, hopefully a bit more understandable from my pov now. I am passionate and honest (aka I have my heart on my tongue), some might see this as being offensive and disrespectful, but from my point that was not the intention of this thread.

And maybe some of you are right, and even I find it quite possible that this is not my final absence. But if one logs on nearly every day for numerous years, and then all of a sudden no longer does, wouldn’t you want to know the reasons. Or at least know that this person is ok in the physical IRL world, and in part simply concluded that instead of feeling frustrated about various parts of the game, it might be a good idea to look around the gaming world to see if there are other games I would enjoy more…

Well anyway, I will respond to various arguments in the next post, hopefully this post gives some more ‘backdrop’ for those that think I am just some random gamer that felt the need to vent his ‘I quit frustration’. You might still see it this way, but at least I given you the reasons as to why it is not, for me …

@FrizzFeston
as Rin pointed out a bit above here a lot of these things have already been discussed in the past, and I gave my pov on these topics more than once already. And seeing a lot of people can’t make it past the first post, or are deterred by the length, could you imagine how long the post would be if I offered (repeated) solutions to these problems. In a sense I offered my pov in this reply: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Why-i-quit-and-can-HoT-bring-me-back/first#post4759688 … as far as playing less, well I tried that, but these things haven’t changed, and I find myself running into the same frustrations every time, if logging on isn’t fun (and in some sense that narly pop-up with ‘log in reward’, pretty much reminds me every time), then why even do so… but who knows, maybe HoT will be all I longed for, and it might give me a renewed sense of fun, making me look past several things that I would have done differently myself, but aren’t that important in regards to the big picture… I am well aware that no game will ever be perfect for everybody …

@Calamity
You pretty much nailed it, except for one thing, my main reason to check other games is to check them out and compare them with what I have now. As said earlier I pretty much solely play(ed) GW, so I have no idea what to expect from other games. And I will not know until I try them, I have my gripes with GW2 and given numerous suggestions on what these things could be like instead. Now seeing I do not find myself having fun in GW2, I think I should venture out into the world and see how other companies deal with these same things. Maybe they do better in the area’s that I want, maybe they do not, like I said, I rather not settle for anything other than the best, but I may have to settle for the level of what ‘the best’ is … But who knows, maybe HoT will deal with my main concerns and it might draw me back in…

@Anduriell
I know, yet I stuck around for GW1 for all those years, found things to do that I liked. If the combination with RTS is the solution remains to be seen, but I do agree that an integration of RTS, combined with an extensive Seasonal/Weather system (aka. have the game change every 1.5 months for 2 seasonal circles in 1 earth year). Will likely be the future of MMO’s to come. At least, it has been on my mind for years now… And it would be an interesting thing to see how human efforts intermingle with RTS systems…

@Gnat
While the previous post was also meant for you, I would like to comment on one thing you bring up. “You also offered no suggestions as to how to make improvements to the systems that you so apparently don’t care for.” … actually I did in the post that I also linked to FrizzFeston, but as an active forum goer, and mostly interested in product development, I posted suggestions on almost all the points I mentioned, from entire ways to make the game more dynamic, to very specific profession design, trait setups, you name it I pretty much said something about it when it was of my interest … actually the 2nd or 3rd thing I posted after this thread was a suggestion on how to make specializations work…

@Gregor Lightbringer
Well it’s not really old wounds, it’s more of a build up of frustrations about systems or solutions, in regards to GW2 specifically that are simply not great, or do the exact opposite (to me) of what they are apparently intended to do. Either new ones or once that have been there since the start. Yes some of it has to do with things that I think were done great in GW1 and mediocre in GW2 ‘at best’.

And yes I do see that it was intended for a slightly different crowd, but I think they made mistakes in that regard. Most vivid gamers with money to spend are in the 25-35y of age. And from what I gather from young kids in my surroundings, all they want is to be taken serious by grownups, be treated as a full individual and not treated like a kid. All their youth they will want to be a grown up, for various reasons, and all their grownup years they will long for the care free years of their youth. Somewhere in the middle is a serious game that takes gamer’s efforts and time spend serious, yet offer amusing and challenging content for everybody to enjoy…

I’ve been told several times that a good writer can communicate their message in few words.

That being said, I didn’t read all of your ramblings. Here’s what I got from what I did read. All that “junk” you’re getting is super useful. Try salvaging it or selling it to vendors/TP. I don’t think you really remember all the merch food one obtained in GW1. Oh, and those “good job you logged in!” rewards go to show modern video game marketing. It’s stupid, I agree with you there.

GW2 stats really aren’t that complicated. There are only a few useful stat combinations… kind of like GW1… Buildwars is still buildwars. Only slightly simplified–GW1 was much more complicated. I mean, how many bagillion skills were available to players?

I don’t have the constitution to continue. Have a good day.

@Rin
On loot
Sorry to drag this back in, but GW1 didn’t have huge piles of loot, and even when a gold dropped (highest tier drop) it wasn’t always useful or truly valuable. Yet it would still offer an ok value in silver. If you were lucky it had max upgrades in it that could be salvaged (or sold along the weapon, but for the upgrade). And when you cleared a group of foes, there was maybe 1 to 3 bags of loot for you, mostly with some silver, sometimes materials or a weapon. Not everything gave you a bag filled with stuff you wanted.

It was actually the fact that there was so little stuff valuable in GW1, that made for the opportunity to have valuable drops and rewards. Then take for instance the Halloween and Wintersday rewards, a mini and/or a hat, and tons and tons of consumables, that were valuable because they contributed to titles, but were also valued for the role they played in events and parties. Sure the low droprate also had it’s counter effect, getting something you wanted (as a drop) felt like a farming nightmare, then again due to that they were also the reason why people wanted them…

There is a difference of being happy you got a drop, and super excited when it turns out to be a great drop. As opposed to feeling disappointed you didn’t get a drop, or that it’s another bunch of vendor trash. (disregarding that indeed vendor trash does help you along, but I hope you get my gist).

On Builds
I fully understand what you say, but the question is: ‘is it fun, challenging and comprehensive’. Well obviously that is a subjective question, but still I think one might be able to say something in general about it, also in regards to optimization and specialization…

What is an MMO game about (apart from the journey), to me it’s learning new skills and abilities, growing as a character in that respect, or even as a way to express oneself. It’s not about numbers on armour, or in +1/-1 UI tabs.

What is challenging, to come up with a combination of skills that works, and/or gives the best rotation/functionality/combination. Not about figuring out the best stats to go with it and hit the corresponding +1 on a UI tab.

What is comprehensive, the tangible things, the icons that represent a certain skill which when pushed correspond with a clear execution of what said skill, by it’s name, is expected to do. Not crunching numbers in hidden formula’s that may or may not increase the intended purpose of said skill.

Yes , I know that is how GW2 is build, but should it ? … so ok you drag in the old, well GW1 had meta builds. Sure, but for every profession there were multiple solutions to deal with the majority of problems, and added to it were builds that were needed to deal with specific problems (in which case something things didn’t quite work out as intended, this in relation to profession exclusions in certain cases).

In GW1 I had one main build, Spitefull Spirit on a Necro/Ranger with a pet spider. That build I made due to my ‘wants’ and likes, from the first time I went to all the necro skills I wanted ‘Mark of Pain’ and I spend a long time to figure out how to trigger it myself in a way that felt like it belonged to ‘me’ and my build. This was the UW pet spider, later on the Sin-Summon was added to the build, and consequently nerved by giving that skill a different damage type. But anyways, that build happened to align with a certain meta build, yet I have seen numerous iterations of said build, not one the same as mine. Sure, due to the lack of armour choices we all might have looked the same, but as far as build and skill execution went a lot of us sure weren’t the same.

And there were numerous times when I would just sit under a tree and try to figure out some new combination, with 300 skills to choose from, surely there must have been fun things that might not have been tried by many others.

Ok so GW1 also had balance passes and FotM builds, yes true, but they hardly ever had a complete impact on a profession, unless something completely overpowered was nerved for a good reason. But general balance passes usually changed 1 to 3 skills in a way that left most of the build in tact. And even in those specific cases it took some time to figure out the best combos there after, and due to the simplicity of the stat system, it was very easy to adapt.

Compare that last thing to GW2, if a dagger/dagger power build gets nerved due to structured PvP troubles; everybody in the PvE world will have to get a fully new set of armour, trinkets and weapons. In GW1 you maybe slotted another ruin, bought a new lvl20 weapon in the trading cities and off you went. Well tbh. if you main-ed a profession it was more likely you already had a set of weapons for every profession stat-line, because you would need it in places where a different build was needed…

Should GW2 become GW1v2, no I do not think it has to, but what it has now surely isn’t fun to me, and for as far as builds go, hardly satisfies my needs to experiment and express myself…

@Arghore.8340
You seem to enjoy walls of text. That is not actually a good thing, when trying to explain your opinions. Wall of Text are reserved for research papers, where methodology and all that crap is require.

L2summarize.

Somnolentjack.3460:

I mean, how many bagillion skills were available to players?

I don’t have the constitution to continue. Have a good day.

But how many were not simply a terrible version of another skill. Or were completely nerd due to their brokenness. The amount of skills in the game certainly did not help when most groups required a certain skills.

Then again I do miss how in certain places the heroes could play the game without any input, I miss that.

@Silvermember, I am sorry I had a university study and have my mind geared like a research paper, also years of internet forum posting have made me realize I need to be as precise and comprehensive as possible. If only to prevent people from misunderstanding me, or pulling my words out of context and by doing so putting words in my mouth…

I will agree with you at numerous skills were useless at some point in GW1, slightly depending on whether you played PvP 4v4 f/e compared to a PvE map with tank & AoE-spank (or some other format). But having bad choices, or circumstantial choices offer a certain challenge… as opposed to only good choices…

Do I think GW2 should be this way? No, some things in GW2 to me are actually an improvement over GW1, the weapons f/e; yet it would be nice if skills #2 and #4 could come with 2 alternative skills to add some flavour and distinction to your own usage of said weapon.

The amount of utility skills, well I would love to see more, but at the same time I acknowledge that maybe the amount should still be restricted. There are ways to do this, this https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Need-more-than-1-Specialization-to-make-sense/page/2#post4759773 for example … more choice, more distinction, more combination to try, yet still limited to a comprehensive set…

Arghore.8340:

Compare that last thing to GW2, if a dagger/dagger power build gets nerved due to structured PvP troubles; everybody in the PvE world will have to get a fully new set of armour, trinkets and weapons. In GW1 you maybe slotted another ruin, bought a new lvl20 weapon in the trading cities and off you went. Well tbh. if you main-ed a profession it was more likely you already had a set of weapons for every profession stat-line, because you would need it in places where a different build was needed…

Sorry but that is just a no, plain out no, if they nerf a dagger/dagger build that measn you swap around some traits (which are 100% free and can be done at anytime) and maybe get a new weapon with same stat combo (berserker or assassin most likely), which if you are an any decent player you keep one of each weapon around of all weapons you can use for cases where your usual weapon is not effective (like a melee weapon against perma reflect mobs or something like that, if you main weapon is a ranged weapon), armor and trinkets would stay the same, they would have to make HUGE gamewide changes to actually have ppl need to swap out all armor and trinket, not adjustments to a specific build

All I got out of this was

“I had an OP build. They balanced it. I was no longer OP. Clearly they are picking on me. I am taking my ball and going home. Now I made a thread for sympathy, look at me, everybody look at me.’

The fact that you avoid listing what reward you cry and claim are “crap” as well as the change that you “claim” ruined your build, demonstrates your desire for attention.

Your complaints are irrationally scattered and sparse and show an entire lack of concern for any other players. They had some great skins that I really really liked as reward, and your idea to garner my support is to call them “garbage”.

And how bad of a person are you? To promote nicotine, and smoking in all 3 of your post, on a website that is about video games, thus clearly attracting kids?

Arghore.8340:

~Snip~

And yes I do see that it was intended for a slightly different crowd, but I think they made mistakes in that regard. Most vivid gamers with money to spend are in the 25-35y of age.

~Snip~
.

First off your demographics are a little off there, you need to change your range of people that play games that can afford it upwards, from 30 – 45+. There are a significant portion of those between 25 – 30 that are still paying off school debt and getting their feet firmly on the ground.

Your second error is in even attempting to make any reasonable connection between the original Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars 2 was from the very beginning going to be completely different than Guild Wars, and there seems to be quite a few people that overlook that. They’re two entirely separate games, always were and always will be; the only thing that links them together besides the name is the lore and world that they comprise. Otherwise all other aspects are as different and intended to be that way as night and day.

Vayne.8563:

Basaltface.2786:

Gnat.9405:

I will never understand why people think publicly announcing their departure deserves attention.

its feedback. If i would be a dev i would actually welcome this (heck i dunno about a-net but atleast I would)…cause i sorta can see what people like and dislike and can collect that info to have something to work with. Sure…1 guy leaving the game or complaining about a certain issue is like a water drop on a hot stone, but lets say (seriosly random number) 500 people “complain” about the same thing you will start to see a pattern that can\could be used as a guideline for the future. A well written and explained “im leaving” post is just as valuable like a suggestion in a CDI imo. Also you can easily skip these topics by just not looking at them

I’m almost 100% positive that people can actually leave feedback and say they like or don’t like something without also saying they’re leaving. Watch.

I’m leaving because I don’t like the loot system. I never feel like I’m getting anywhere.

I don’t like the loot system, I never feel like I’m getting anywhere.

Both of these lines give the exact same info. It doesn’t help that so many people say they’re leaving and never actually leave. We know this because devs told us this.

They don’t give the same info, the 1st one clearly says you lost 1 customer, the 2nd not really.

@Zaklex,
yeah I thought so the moment I hit post, actually I met quite a few people that filled their retirement time with GW… but I am glad you agree with me that the demographics of MMO gaming are in the 25+ and up categories and not the <18jr …

There is no error there, I am merely comparing the too in regards to what they share and where they differ, in regards to equal features. I could also bring up WoW, Archeage, Conan, Saga of Ryzom, Eve Online, Mortal Combat, if I would actually have more insight into these games to a point where any comparison would lead to a definite conclusion. And naming these games or comparing them wouldn’t lead to a storm of rant posts. Comparing GW1 and GW2 makes complete sense as they are both within the expected knowledge and reference frame of most the people I try to converse with…

I have also clearly stated multiple times that I do not expect nor ever expected GW2 to be or become GW1v2. Yet I feel that having played both, and both share the same company, name, lore and world, I am well within my rights to give my opinion on what I like and/or disliked about either, either on their own or compared to each other.

So basically, you wanted to like the game, found it wasn’t your cup of tea, and decided to assault everyone on the forums with grievous wall of text.