Guild Wars 2

Ricky.4706:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ricky.4706:

IndigoSundown.5419:

That’s, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

The gray needs to LTQ.

sounds like you and brainy quote have something to debate about! lol

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgesant101521.html

Probably the most well-known sentence of Santayana’s is also one of the least accurately quoted: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” (The Life of Reason: Reason in Common Sense. Scribner’s, 1905: 284)

Now I see why you’re doing what you’re doing.

i focus on the moral of the story, when you stare at the trees for too long, you might miss the forest!

God, I feel you’re trolling. And that’s not a quote.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

For me personally, I don’t consider statements that include ‘As always, the content above is subject to change as we test and iterate on these systems.’ as promises.

But, of course, that’s just me.

Please don’t make the black knights read. That’s plain unfair.

I’m pretty sure that most people that have followed the game from the beginning, remember an entire blogpost dedicated to the iterative nature of the development cycle and how things change all the time, even finished systems that they thought they’d be happy with. It’s entirely possible, in my mind anyway, that Anet published that article to let everyone know that not all plans will pan out. That’s how I read the article anyway.

People wonder why Anet is reluctant to share information before it’s ready. That’s because there’s a loud percentage of this forum who sees every single word out of Anet’s virtual lips as a “promise”.

That’s the reason why Anet is gun shy and doesn’t want to say anything. Because a vocal minority will call them out on anything late, unfinished, scrapped, altered or missing. But that same vocal minority will often ignore the dozens of touches added to the game they didn’t know were coming at all.

the real deal?
most companies can talk about future plans, and meet or exceed those plans. The fact that anet cannot is not the consumers fault, its just how anet is. They have to figure out how to answer this question that most game developer have to deal with, based on own process.

id say silence is unsatisfactory, and not saying anything is not beneficial, so i dont know how they will solve it, but its an issue.

Most companies can do this? Are you sure? I’ve seen many long term plans by companies not come to fruition and I’ve seen fans call them out on it, but never like Anet fans.

AoC wasn’t even able to fix a bug with nvidia drives so that the game wouldn’t crash every minute or so. And Archeage told people in a prepurchase package that founders would get 10% off in the cash shop, which they were NEVER able to deliver even to this date. They changed the whole thing. Many people asked for refunds, and rightly so.

That one thing probably hurt Archeage more than any other thing that happened. They simply shouldn’t have said it.

Anet’s problem is that fans are so into the this game, anything they say is gospel. There’s no real leeway.

Down to the fact that Anet said directly that people who prepurchased would be invited to beta weekends, and people are saying they feel offended that Anet didn’t invite them to a stress test during the week.

Zero Day.2594:

Ricky.4706:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ricky.4706:

IndigoSundown.5419:

That’s, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

The gray needs to LTQ.

sounds like you and brainy quote have something to debate about! lol

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgesant101521.html

Probably the most well-known sentence of Santayana’s is also one of the least accurately quoted: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” (The Life of Reason: Reason in Common Sense. Scribner’s, 1905: 284)

Now I see why you’re doing what you’re doing.

i focus on the moral of the story, when you stare at the trees for too long, you might miss the forest!

God, I feel you’re trolling. And that’s not a quote.

i see what you are ‘trying’ to do. is there something wrong with focusing on the moral of a topic than knit picking the words to favor your own argument ?

Ricky.4706:

Zero Day.2594:

Ricky.4706:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ricky.4706:

IndigoSundown.5419:

That’s, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

The gray needs to LTQ.

sounds like you and brainy quote have something to debate about! lol

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgesant101521.html

Probably the most well-known sentence of Santayana’s is also one of the least accurately quoted: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” (The Life of Reason: Reason in Common Sense. Scribner’s, 1905: 284)

Now I see why you’re doing what you’re doing.

i focus on the moral of the story, when you stare at the trees for too long, you might miss the forest!

God, I feel you’re trolling. And that’s not a quote.

i see what you are ‘trying’ to do. is there something wrong with focusing on the moral of a topic than knit picking the words to favor your own argument ?

But words can very often completely change the definition of the moral. For example, some people claim that Anet has lied about things, which implies the intent to mislead. As long as that word is in an argument, you will find some people uncomfortable with it. Sometimes, the devil really is in the details.

please kind sirs, i have nothing but love for all of you <3 stand for what is right, for the greater good. let us find somewhere that everyone can be happy, bickering about such minute details is what is causing this mess to begin with, like the front page ad about a stress test that people who paid for beta testing rights can’t attend. Surely you have some compassion for those people who supported everyone, even defended you, only to feel shut out and disregarded.

just like you have stated yourself, “But words can very often completely change the definition of the moral” – yes, “Announcing the First World vs. World Borderlands Stress Test” just like these words change the moral of “Access to All Beta Weekend Events” yes, it’s a detail, a small devil of a detail at that. All I’m asking is that you consider the people affected by this. Is that really so wrong ? must you constantly go at them ? can’t we all just get along ?

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

For me personally, I don’t consider statements that include ‘As always, the content above is subject to change as we test and iterate on these systems.’ as promises.

But, of course, that’s just me.

Please don’t make the black knights read. That’s plain unfair.

I’m pretty sure that most people that have followed the game from the beginning, remember an entire blogpost dedicated to the iterative nature of the development cycle and how things change all the time, even finished systems that they thought they’d be happy with. It’s entirely possible, in my mind anyway, that Anet published that article to let everyone know that not all plans will pan out. That’s how I read the article anyway.

People wonder why Anet is reluctant to share information before it’s ready. That’s because there’s a loud percentage of this forum who sees every single word out of Anet’s virtual lips as a “promise”.

That’s the reason why Anet is gun shy and doesn’t want to say anything. Because a vocal minority will call them out on anything late, unfinished, scrapped, altered or missing. But that same vocal minority will often ignore the dozens of touches added to the game they didn’t know were coming at all.

the real deal?
most companies can talk about future plans, and meet or exceed those plans. The fact that anet cannot is not the consumers fault, its just how anet is. They have to figure out how to answer this question that most game developer have to deal with, based on own process.

id say silence is unsatisfactory, and not saying anything is not beneficial, so i dont know how they will solve it, but its an issue.

Most companies can do this? Are you sure? I’ve seen many long term plans by companies not come to fruition and I’ve seen fans call them out on it, but never like Anet fans.

AoC wasn’t even able to fix a bug with nvidia drives so that the game wouldn’t crash every minute or so. And Archeage told people in a prepurchase package that founders would get 10% off in the cash shop, which they were NEVER able to deliver even to this date. They changed the whole thing. Many people asked for refunds, and rightly so.

That one thing probably hurt Archeage more than any other thing that happened. They simply shouldn’t have said it.

Anet’s problem is that fans are so into the this game, anything they say is gospel. There’s no real leeway.

Down to the fact that Anet said directly that people who prepurchased would be invited to beta weekends, and people are saying they feel offended that Anet didn’t invite them to a stress test during the week.

i didnt say every company.
but notice how in your archeage example it has had a huge negative impact? Yeah thats whats expected.
Things happen, but blaming the consumer for believing people makes no sense.

regardless, every major company has to deal with having to tell people what the future holds, and being expected to have to do what they say. Different companies may come up with different answers.

right now, the experienced gw2 customer doesnt really believe anet will actually do something just because they say they will. Even staunch defenders of anet advise against taking public announcements as something to believe in.

i understand anet is the type of developer that likes to turn things on their head and is extremely mercurial. But this creates the problem of the fact that companies often need to tell customers or future customers what to expect, and yet anet changes plans often.
Anet need to figure out how to reconcile these things. Its not the customers fault for believing them, and its not the customers fault for wanting information about the future.

One end result of the overall situation is the current issue in this thread

Ricky.4706:

please kind sirs, i have nothing but love for all of you <3 stand for what is right, for the greater good. let us find somewhere that everyone can be happy, bickering about such minute details is what is causing this mess to begin with, like the front page ad about a stress test that people who paid for beta testing rights can’t attend. Surely you have some compassion for those people who supported everyone, even defended you, only to feel shut out and disregarded.

just like you have stated yourself, “But words can very often completely change the definition of the moral” – yes, “Announcing the First World vs. World Borderlands Stress Test” just like these words change the moral of “Access to All Beta Weekend Events” yes, it’s a detail, a small devil of a detail at that. All I’m asking is that you consider the people affected by this. Is that really so wrong ? must you constantly go at them ? can’t we all just get along ?

You’re not entitled to anything not advertised and you don’t deserve to be in a stress test PERIOD. Now, without knowing the number of people included, maybe it’s only a couple of hundred, how can you insist, how can ANYONE, insist that they be included. If 10,000 people all insist the be included and there’s room for 500 then what do you do?

This is so self-serving it’s not funny. Actually I think what you’re saying is more harmful to the community. It’s unreasonable, and it’s irresponsible.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

For me personally, I don’t consider statements that include ‘As always, the content above is subject to change as we test and iterate on these systems.’ as promises.

But, of course, that’s just me.

Please don’t make the black knights read. That’s plain unfair.

I’m pretty sure that most people that have followed the game from the beginning, remember an entire blogpost dedicated to the iterative nature of the development cycle and how things change all the time, even finished systems that they thought they’d be happy with. It’s entirely possible, in my mind anyway, that Anet published that article to let everyone know that not all plans will pan out. That’s how I read the article anyway.

People wonder why Anet is reluctant to share information before it’s ready. That’s because there’s a loud percentage of this forum who sees every single word out of Anet’s virtual lips as a “promise”.

That’s the reason why Anet is gun shy and doesn’t want to say anything. Because a vocal minority will call them out on anything late, unfinished, scrapped, altered or missing. But that same vocal minority will often ignore the dozens of touches added to the game they didn’t know were coming at all.

the real deal?
most companies can talk about future plans, and meet or exceed those plans. The fact that anet cannot is not the consumers fault, its just how anet is. They have to figure out how to answer this question that most game developer have to deal with, based on own process.

id say silence is unsatisfactory, and not saying anything is not beneficial, so i dont know how they will solve it, but its an issue.

Most companies can do this? Are you sure? I’ve seen many long term plans by companies not come to fruition and I’ve seen fans call them out on it, but never like Anet fans.

AoC wasn’t even able to fix a bug with nvidia drives so that the game wouldn’t crash every minute or so. And Archeage told people in a prepurchase package that founders would get 10% off in the cash shop, which they were NEVER able to deliver even to this date. They changed the whole thing. Many people asked for refunds, and rightly so.

That one thing probably hurt Archeage more than any other thing that happened. They simply shouldn’t have said it.

Anet’s problem is that fans are so into the this game, anything they say is gospel. There’s no real leeway.

Down to the fact that Anet said directly that people who prepurchased would be invited to beta weekends, and people are saying they feel offended that Anet didn’t invite them to a stress test during the week.

i didnt say every company.
but notice how in your archeage example it has had a huge negative impact? Yeah thats whats expected.
Things happen, but blaming the consumer for believing people makes no sense.

regardless, every major company has to deal with having to tell people what the future holds, and being expected to have to do what they say. Different companies may come up with different answers.

right now, the experienced gw2 customer doesnt really believe anet will actually do something just because they say they will. Even staunch defenders of anet advise against taking public announcements as something to believe in.

i understand anet is the type of developer that likes to turn things on their head and is extremely mercurial. But this creates the problem of the fact that companies often need to tell customers or future customers what to expect, and yet anet changes plans often.
Anet need to figure out how to reconcile these things. Its not the customers fault for believing them, and its not the customers fault for wanting information about the future.

One end result of the overall situation is the current issue in this thread

The point is, if Archeage hadn’t said it, there wouldn’t have been the same backlash. It happened because they said something they didn’t end up providing. Anet wrote an article with a list of stuff, included a disclaimer in the article that anything can change, and there are still people who use words like lying.

I don’t really blame Anet, even though I don’t agree with their decision to remain silent.

Vayne.8563:

Ricky.4706:

please kind sirs, i have nothing but love for all of you <3 stand for what is right, for the greater good. let us find somewhere that everyone can be happy, bickering about such minute details is what is causing this mess to begin with, like the front page ad about a stress test that people who paid for beta testing rights can’t attend. Surely you have some compassion for those people who supported everyone, even defended you, only to feel shut out and disregarded.

just like you have stated yourself, “But words can very often completely change the definition of the moral” – yes, “Announcing the First World vs. World Borderlands Stress Test” just like these words change the moral of “Access to All Beta Weekend Events” yes, it’s a detail, a small devil of a detail at that. All I’m asking is that you consider the people affected by this. Is that really so wrong ? must you constantly go at them ? can’t we all just get along ?

You’re not entitled to anything not advertised and you don’t deserve to be in a stress test PERIOD. Now, without knowing the number of people included, maybe it’s only a couple of hundred, how can you insist, how can ANYONE, insist that they be included. If 10,000 people all insist the be included and there’s room for 500 then what do you do?

This is so self-serving it’s not funny. Actually I think what you’re saying is more harmful to the community. It’s unreasonable, and it’s irresponsible.

wow, that’s toxic. fyi, i haven’t pre purchased, this has nothing to do with how I felt entitled….. lol I am simply pointing out reasons they can be upset and trying to help identify the problem to maybe give you a better chance at peace. But from the tone of your posts, that seems to be the last thing on your mind.

Ricky.4706:

Vayne.8563:

Ricky.4706:

please kind sirs, i have nothing but love for all of you <3 stand for what is right, for the greater good. let us find somewhere that everyone can be happy, bickering about such minute details is what is causing this mess to begin with, like the front page ad about a stress test that people who paid for beta testing rights can’t attend. Surely you have some compassion for those people who supported everyone, even defended you, only to feel shut out and disregarded.

just like you have stated yourself, “But words can very often completely change the definition of the moral” – yes, “Announcing the First World vs. World Borderlands Stress Test” just like these words change the moral of “Access to All Beta Weekend Events” yes, it’s a detail, a small devil of a detail at that. All I’m asking is that you consider the people affected by this. Is that really so wrong ? must you constantly go at them ? can’t we all just get along ?

You’re not entitled to anything not advertised and you don’t deserve to be in a stress test PERIOD. Now, without knowing the number of people included, maybe it’s only a couple of hundred, how can you insist, how can ANYONE, insist that they be included. If 10,000 people all insist the be included and there’s room for 500 then what do you do?

This is so self-serving it’s not funny. Actually I think what you’re saying is more harmful to the community. It’s unreasonable, and it’s irresponsible.

wow, that’s toxic. fyi, i haven’t pre purchased, this has nothing to do with how I felt entitled….. lol I am simply pointing out reasons they can be upset and trying to help identify the problem to maybe give you a better chance at peace. But from the tone of your posts, that seems to be the last thing on your mind.

Honestly I’m dead tired about the attitude of the so-called veteran players. This is beyond the pall already. People are claiming entitlement to things they really aren’t entitled to anymore. And it’s rampant. It’s not one thing, or two things. Anything Anet does now, any move, some veteran somewhere is going to say it’s for new players it’s for this player, it’s for that player. It doesn’t matter if it’s reasonable. It doesn’t matter that the constant cacophony of this entitlement is screwing the forums completely. On reddit, most of those posts get downvoted pretty fast.

Here it just lingers like a bad smell.

So answer these questions.

1. How many people does Anet need for their stress test.
2. How many veteran players are there total and what makes a veteran player?
3. What percentage of veteran players will have to be excluded no matter what because a stress test is NOT a beta test, it’s a very specific type of test, with specific requirements.
4. By what logic is Anet required you use prepurchasers to fill a void that is probably massively limited?
5. What makes you think that if a tiny percentage of perpurchasers got in, the other 90 plus percent that couldn’t wouldn’t be annoyed and come here screaming about how they are veteran players and should get in.

This is a stress test, not a beta test. It’s four hours long. The server will be taxed and during that time, Anet will make live adjustments to it, to see how it handles different settings, until they decide what works best. That’s all a stress test is for. That’s what Anet is doing.

A stress test for WvW shouldn’t require more people than you can store on a map at the same time. Currently that limit is 80 characters per side.

So if Anet needs 240 people, how many veteran players are going to be left out, no matter what Anet does?

This veteran player entitlement (and I don’t like to use the word, but I’ll sure use it here), has reached far beyond any reasonable level. It’s become a public nuisance on the forums.

I don’t have any authority of the forums, but I can sure express my displeasure at something like this.

but if you consider both sides of this issue – simple clarity would help a great deal.

That’s the issue I’m pointing out, you have to search around for the answer – and to avoid any speculation. Make it clear, people shouldn’t have to reference, cross reference, have long debates for something that might be very simple.

you really should not be ‘tired’ nor displeasured because it’s not your fault, and it has no bearing on you and the best thing is to find what may bring understanding.

The fact is that it is vague and has to be found on several documents to be made clear, i’ve heard all sides …the problem I’m seeing is that the community is losing trust, and lack of clarity does not help encourage trust.

I want to see anet number 1, that’s not going to happen if their ‘existing’ fans doubt them every step of the way. I don’t doubt them, i just dont think they are considering that some things are causing more harm than good.

Vayne.8563:

Ricky.4706:

Vayne.8563:

Ricky.4706:

please kind sirs, i have nothing but love for all of you <3 stand for what is right, for the greater good. let us find somewhere that everyone can be happy, bickering about such minute details is what is causing this mess to begin with, like the front page ad about a stress test that people who paid for beta testing rights can’t attend. Surely you have some compassion for those people who supported everyone, even defended you, only to feel shut out and disregarded.

just like you have stated yourself, “But words can very often completely change the definition of the moral” – yes, “Announcing the First World vs. World Borderlands Stress Test” just like these words change the moral of “Access to All Beta Weekend Events” yes, it’s a detail, a small devil of a detail at that. All I’m asking is that you consider the people affected by this. Is that really so wrong ? must you constantly go at them ? can’t we all just get along ?

You’re not entitled to anything not advertised and you don’t deserve to be in a stress test PERIOD. Now, without knowing the number of people included, maybe it’s only a couple of hundred, how can you insist, how can ANYONE, insist that they be included. If 10,000 people all insist the be included and there’s room for 500 then what do you do?

This is so self-serving it’s not funny. Actually I think what you’re saying is more harmful to the community. It’s unreasonable, and it’s irresponsible.

wow, that’s toxic. fyi, i haven’t pre purchased, this has nothing to do with how I felt entitled….. lol I am simply pointing out reasons they can be upset and trying to help identify the problem to maybe give you a better chance at peace. But from the tone of your posts, that seems to be the last thing on your mind.

Honestly I’m dead tired about the attitude of the so-called veteran players. This is beyond the pall already. People are claiming entitlement to things they really aren’t entitled to anymore. And it’s rampant. It’s not one thing, or two things. Anything Anet does now, any move, some veteran somewhere is going to say it’s for new players it’s for this player, it’s for that player. It doesn’t matter if it’s reasonable. It doesn’t matter that the constant cacophony of this entitlement is screwing the forums completely. On reddit, most of those posts get downvoted pretty fast.

Here it just lingers like a bad smell.

So answer these questions.

1. How many people does Anet need for their stress test.
2. How many veteran players are there total and what makes a veteran player?
3. What percentage of veteran players will have to be excluded no matter what because a stress test is NOT a beta test, it’s a very specific type of test, with specific requirements.
4. By what logic is Anet required you use prepurchasers to fill a void that is probably massively limited?
5. What makes you think that if a tiny percentage of perpurchasers got in, the other 90 plus percent that couldn’t wouldn’t be annoyed and come here screaming about how they are veteran players and should get in.

This is a stress test, not a beta test. It’s four hours long. The server will be taxed and during that time, Anet will make live adjustments to it, to see how it handles different settings, until they decide what works best. That’s all a stress test is for. That’s what Anet is doing.

A stress test for WvW shouldn’t require more people than you can store on a map at the same time. Currently that limit is 80 characters per side.

So if Anet needs 240 people, how many veteran players are going to be left out, no matter what Anet does?

This veteran player entitlement (and I don’t like to use the word, but I’ll sure use it here), has reached far beyond any reasonable level. It’s become a public nuisance on the forums.

I don’t have any authority of the forums, but I can sure express my displeasure at something like this.

Please take all my upvotes.

Ricky.4706:

but if you consider both sides of this issue – simple clarity would help a great deal.

That’s the issue I’m pointing out, you have to search around for the answer – and to avoid any speculation. Make it clear, people shouldn’t have to reference, cross reference, have long debates for something that might be very simple.

you really should not be ‘tired’ nor displeasured because it’s not your fault, and it has no bearing on you and the best thing is to find what may bring understanding.

The fact is that it is vague and has to be found on several documents to be made clear, i’ve heard all sides …the problem I’m seeing is that the community is losing trust, and lack of clarity does not help encourage trust.

I want to see anet number 1, that’s not going to happen if their ‘existing’ fans doubt them every step of the way. I don’t doubt them, i just dont think they are considering that some things are causing more harm than good.

Anet isn’t going to be number 1. WoW is #1. Blizzard has a war chest that’s deep enough and a momentum that’s deep enough where nothing is going to touch it…not now and not in the future. It was in the right time at the right place. Plenty of advertising dollars and no competition to speak of.

But wanting to see Anet #1 and starting this kind of debate is exactly what prevents Anet from being #2.

No matter what anyone does, if you focus on something hard enough, you’ll find flaw. It’s really that simple. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In your desire to hold Anet to some arbitrary standard you’ve made for Anet, you place them in a terrible situation. Because Anet isn’t a person. Anet is a company. Anet has 300 people working for them and a relationship with NcSoft all of which makes things like communication more difficult.

The demands “veteran” players are making, whether they make sense or not, are seen by everyone. This isn’t fair to Anet or Veteran players.

I’m a veteran player and I want to download and play hot. There was a stress test for HoT before the first closed beta. This is a stress test, most likely before the next step of HoT’s development. This sort of side show takes time away from development. Having to deal with this accomplishes nothing because there’s nothing TO accomplish here.

You want clarity, become an ophthalmologist. There isn’t going to be clarity because things are in motion and if every single thing needs 800 meetings to move on, then nothing is ever going to happen.

Sometimes I think this community is its own worst enemy.

MauricioCezar.2673:

We will have acess with some new legendarys, with more coming on next releases.
We will have acess to some Stronghold champions, with more coming on next releases.
We will have acess to 1 stronghold map, with more coming into next releases.

What more we are receiving incomplete? There is even a rumor that we are not even taking mordremoth down, only coming in future releases.

It’s my understanding that the expansion will act as a gateway to further Living Story content. So, in that regard, no the expansion will not be ‘complete’ per se. We can’t even be sure that killing Mordy is included, as you noted, because there’s been little to nothing about the content itself.

We just don’t know . . . which is bewildering to the community . . . but also another topic.

Even GW2 got released uncomplete, they don’t need change things about xx times if the game would be perfect and a lot of things we got promised before release we still waiting for.

But remember the team who developed the game has changed and lot of people no longer working there who got the good ideas for it.

Same is happening with HoT as we see what we got and how existing working things inside the game got badly damaged because the new crew did not understand what the old crew developed years ago. So a lot of fail updates happening.

Ayrilana.1396:

Funny because you did. You only brought up the archery mini-game in a single sentence.

So you completely failed to understand what I wrote. Wow. And you still think you can argue about it.

But I actually have to thank you. You have basically proved my point in this topic – by the examples you have, it’s clear that just because ArenaNet says they will add something to the game, it doesn’t mean they will actually do it. Ergo, all the talk about features they say they will add in the future… Is meaningless. All we can be sure in HoT is what we get at release, or at least the little it looks like HoT will have at release.

Vayne.8563:

Sometimes I think this community is its own worst enemy.

Let’s be honest, Vayne. ArenaNet is this community’s worst enemy.

Just look at how they dealt with the WvW beta test: players deserve to be able to join, especially those who prepurchased. Given how ArenaNet asked people to pay them for an expansion without a release date in order to be able to join betas with unknown dates, the minimum – really, the bare minimum – ArenaNet should do is allow those players to join the WvW beta.

And really, the excuse of “they are not going to be able to fit many players in there” is a very poor argument. If they are making a WvW map that cannot hold even a small fraction of the current players, well, they are basically wasting their time.

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

Funny because you did. You only brought up the archery mini-game in a single sentence.

So you completely failed to understand what I wrote. Wow. And you still think you can argue about it.

But I actually have to thank you. You have basically proved my point in this topic – by the examples you have, it’s clear that just because ArenaNet says they will add something to the game, it doesn’t mean they will actually do it. Ergo, all the talk about features they say they will add in the future… Is meaningless. All we can be sure in HoT is what we get at release, or at least the little it looks like HoT will have at release.

Vayne.8563:

Sometimes I think this community is its own worst enemy.

Let’s be honest, Vayne. ArenaNet is this community’s worst enemy.

Just look at how they dealt with the WvW beta test: players deserve to be able to join, especially those who prepurchased. Given how ArenaNet asked people to pay them for an expansion without a release date in order to be able to join betas with unknown dates, the minimum – really, the bare minimum – ArenaNet should do is allow those players to join the WvW beta.

And really, the excuse of “they are not going to be able to fit many players in there” is a very poor argument. If they are making a WvW map that cannot hold even a small fraction of the current players, well, they are basically wasting their time.

You mean look at how they dealt with the stress test, which is not actually a beta test? A four hour test that requires limited participation.

Do you really think Anet should be forced to have extra tens of thousands of people to run a stress test? Maybe they need to do the test to GET TO beta.

Of course, that doesn’t fit your pet theory, so it can’t be true.

Stress tests are designed for a reason to be a certain way. You don’t get to demand how the company tests their game before the first beta. The stress test is a step along the way to that beta.

Why not let the company make the game so you can enjoy the beta?

MauricioCezar.2673:

We will have acess with some new legendarys, with more coming on next releases.
We will have acess to some Stronghold champions, with more coming on next releases.
We will have acess to 1 stronghold map, with more coming into next releases.

What more we are receiving incomplete? There is even a rumor that we are not even taking mordremoth down, only coming in future releases.

Of course it will be released in complete. Anet is out of players, out of good will and out of money. They need the cash now.

Just look at what happened. They released a bunch of elite specs, and guild halls then asked a huge amount of money up front for the expansion. Now that they have that money we haven’t heard a single new thing about the expansion for 3 weeks and it looks like next week will be a bust as well.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

MauricioCezar.2673:

We will have acess with some new legendarys, with more coming on next releases.
We will have acess to some Stronghold champions, with more coming on next releases.
We will have acess to 1 stronghold map, with more coming into next releases.

What more we are receiving incomplete? There is even a rumor that we are not even taking mordremoth down, only coming in future releases.

Of course it will be released in complete. Anet is out of players, out of good will and out of money. They need the cash now.

Just look at what happened. They released a bunch of elite specs, and guild halls then asked a huge amount of money up front for the expansion. Now that they have that money we haven’t heard a single new thing about the expansion for 3 weeks and it looks like next week will be a bust as well.

The black knights are out in force, I see. The same thing happened with the core game, if you remember. Bursts of information,. periods of silence. In case you guys didn’t notice, they just came out with a giant patch, and it’s a holiday weekend. I’m pretty sure that news will continue soon.

Also like Guild Wars 2, they offered the presale long before the release date was announced. These same types of comments existed back then. But the game did come and many of us are enjoying it.

And I think you’re grossly estimated the whole out of good will thing. These forums always sound like the game is on it’s last legs. It wasn’t true two months after launch when ascended weapons were introduced, it’s certainly not true now.

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

Funny because you did. You only brought up the archery mini-game in a single sentence.

So you completely failed to understand what I wrote. Wow. And you still think you can argue about it.

But I actually have to thank you. You have basically proved my point in this topic – by the examples you have, it’s clear that just because ArenaNet says they will add something to the game, it doesn’t mean they will actually do it. Ergo, all the talk about features they say they will add in the future… Is meaningless. All we can be sure in HoT is what we get at release, or at least the little it looks like HoT will have at release.

Nope. You phrased your post in such a way that you were implying that the blog post items were promised at launch. You also cherry picked the few items that they could not deliver as planned and treated that as confirmation of your argument that Anet can’t keep promises of future content.

I could easily use your same rationale and say that if you have ever been unable to keep your promises a few times then nobody can rely on you to keep them. Nobody is denying that plans change so your point isn’t being proved until you’re just trying to prove the obvious.

phys.7689:

What we get when HoT is released is everything we know we will get for sure. Everything else ArenaNet claims they will eventually add one day to the game… Is just a promise. And it wouldn’t be the first or the last time ArenaNet makes a promise they are not going to keep.

he is saying;
whats in hot is all we know for sure
other things are long term plans
anet has shown that long term plans change.

his overall point and logic is
only expect what is in hot, because everything that isnt in hot is only a possibility, not a guarantee or reality.

which was in response to people saying that we will get/should expect XYZ after release with our purchase.

I wasn’t referring to him pointing out the obvious that plans do change. What I was referring to was his assumption that because of the few times that they had to change their plans that this must mean that you cannot rely on anything they said that they are working on. He was picking the few times that they had to change plans and acting as it was evidence that you cannot trust them. If you are unable to keep 10% (arbitrary low percentage) of your promises then that means we cannot trust you.

Like people said many times anet plans to release content after HoT, but this silence from anet about remaining content that be in HoT is killing me and is deterring me from buying the expansion.

Ayrilana.1396:

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

Funny because you did. You only brought up the archery mini-game in a single sentence.

So you completely failed to understand what I wrote. Wow. And you still think you can argue about it.

But I actually have to thank you. You have basically proved my point in this topic – by the examples you have, it’s clear that just because ArenaNet says they will add something to the game, it doesn’t mean they will actually do it. Ergo, all the talk about features they say they will add in the future… Is meaningless. All we can be sure in HoT is what we get at release, or at least the little it looks like HoT will have at release.

Nope. You phrased your post in such a way that you were implying that the blog post items were promised at launch. You also cherry picked the few items that they could not deliver as planned and treated that as confirmation of your argument that Anet can’t keep promises of future content.

I could easily use your same rationale and say that if you have ever been unable to keep your promises a few times then nobody can rely on you to keep them. Nobody is denying that plans change so your point isn’t being proved until you’re just trying to prove the obvious.

phys.7689:

What we get when HoT is released is everything we know we will get for sure. Everything else ArenaNet claims they will eventually add one day to the game… Is just a promise. And it wouldn’t be the first or the last time ArenaNet makes a promise they are not going to keep.

he is saying;
whats in hot is all we know for sure
other things are long term plans
anet has shown that long term plans change.

his overall point and logic is
only expect what is in hot, because everything that isnt in hot is only a possibility, not a guarantee or reality.

which was in response to people saying that we will get/should expect XYZ after release with our purchase.

I wasn’t referring to him pointing out the obvious that plans do change. What I was referring to was his assumption that because of the few times that they had to change their plans that this must mean that you cannot rely on anything they said that they are working on. He was picking the few times that they had to change plans and acting as it was evidence that you cannot trust them. If you are unable to keep 10% (arbitrary low percentage) of your promises then that means we cannot trust you.

Its more than 10% and its probably not malicious, but even if its 10% that basically makes you an unknown quanitity.
What it your boyfriend only cheats on you 10% of the times he has an opportunity
Or your baby sitter only leaves your kids unsupervised 10% of the time
Or you car doesnt start 10% of the time.
All of those things would be considered unreliable. And the thing with anet, they arent just late, sometimes they go very far from what they said or. Like ascended, our last living story was 6 months ago. There was a time they promised new dynamic events and chains constantly added and changed as the world changes. Anet can and will change anything, sometimes good sometimes bad, but extremely uncertain.

So yeah you cant really go by what anet says for long term plans, its just things they might do.
And even by what they did say, they never promised most of these things they could add to later were going to be included in this payment other than living story.

I think the silence and the mercurial nature of anet have made many decide they dont really trust them. Not in a you are a liar way, but in a you are very uncertain way. They say little, and much of what they do say doesnt turn out the way it seems or doesnt turn out at all.

MauricioCezar.2673:

We will have acess with some new legendarys, with more coming on next releases.
We will have acess to some Stronghold champions, with more coming on next releases.
We will have acess to 1 stronghold map, with more coming into next releases.

What more we are receiving incomplete? There is even a rumor that we are not even taking mordremoth down, only coming in future releases.

Based on the way you’ve described it, then yes, it will be ‘incomplete’ – but you could have argued the same of the base game. MMO’s are always like this though. GW2 will also add more through LW updates, etc. Of all the issues around this xpac, this bothers me the least.

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

Funny because you did. You only brought up the archery mini-game in a single sentence.

So you completely failed to understand what I wrote. Wow. And you still think you can argue about it.

But I actually have to thank you. You have basically proved my point in this topic – by the examples you have, it’s clear that just because ArenaNet says they will add something to the game, it doesn’t mean they will actually do it. Ergo, all the talk about features they say they will add in the future… Is meaningless. All we can be sure in HoT is what we get at release, or at least the little it looks like HoT will have at release.

Nope. You phrased your post in such a way that you were implying that the blog post items were promised at launch. You also cherry picked the few items that they could not deliver as planned and treated that as confirmation of your argument that Anet can’t keep promises of future content.

I could easily use your same rationale and say that if you have ever been unable to keep your promises a few times then nobody can rely on you to keep them. Nobody is denying that plans change so your point isn’t being proved until you’re just trying to prove the obvious.

phys.7689:

What we get when HoT is released is everything we know we will get for sure. Everything else ArenaNet claims they will eventually add one day to the game… Is just a promise. And it wouldn’t be the first or the last time ArenaNet makes a promise they are not going to keep.

he is saying;
whats in hot is all we know for sure
other things are long term plans
anet has shown that long term plans change.

his overall point and logic is
only expect what is in hot, because everything that isnt in hot is only a possibility, not a guarantee or reality.

which was in response to people saying that we will get/should expect XYZ after release with our purchase.

I wasn’t referring to him pointing out the obvious that plans do change. What I was referring to was his assumption that because of the few times that they had to change their plans that this must mean that you cannot rely on anything they said that they are working on. He was picking the few times that they had to change plans and acting as it was evidence that you cannot trust them. If you are unable to keep 10% (arbitrary low percentage) of your promises then that means we cannot trust you.

Its more than 10% and its probably not malicious, but even if its 10% that basically makes you an unknown quanitity.
What it your boyfriend only cheats on you 10% of the times he has an opportunity
Or your baby sitter only leaves your kids unsupervised 10% of the time
Or you car doesnt start 10% of the time.
All of those things would be considered unreliable. And the thing with anet, they arent just late, sometimes they go very far from what they said or. Like ascended, our last living story was 6 months ago. There was a time they promised new dynamic events and chains constantly added and changed as the world changes. Anet can and will change anything, sometimes good sometimes bad, but extremely uncertain.

So yeah you cant really go by what anet says for long term plans, its just things they might do.
And even by what they did say, they never promised most of these things they could add to later were going to be included in this payment other than living story.

I think the silence and the mercurial nature of anet have made many decide they dont really trust them. Not in a you are a liar way, but in a you are very uncertain way. They say little, and much of what they do say doesnt turn out the way it seems or doesnt turn out at all.

It could be more than 10% or it could be less. There was no thought put into that percentage as it didn’t really matter. The point of it was to show a very low percentage which is the same case as those promises that Anet hasn’t kept compared to those that they have.

There’s a fairly large difference between someone being cheated on and a production change pushing back something that had been stated would be introduced. The babysitter and car examples don’t really apply and those rely more on the functionality of the product on a whole than something as simply as an announced feature being postponed. Anet servers being down 10% of the time would more closely represent those examples of yours than what you’re trying to compare them to.

Anet did promise those things and they did deliver on them. The thing people seem to forget is that Anet has given players notice when there would be a disruption in that. They let people know the current gap in content was due to all of the staff working on the expansion that many players requested.

The funny part is when people justify the cost of the expansion based on the stuff that may or may not come later.

Gibson.4036:

The funny part is when people justify the cost of the expansion based on the stuff that may or may not come later.

The funny part is that people ignore the fact that this is in line price wise with other MMO expansions (not equal to, but in line), that we don’t have all the information yet, and that the entire game has pretty much been redesigned. It will be a whole new experience.

You may think that adding gliding, and masteries and elite specializations is just some minor DLC change, but I suspect the way people feel about post 80 progress is going to change.

As for content, Anet hasn’t told us everything yet, so the jury is still out there. But it’s valid to believe that I’m going to get more than 100 hours out of this game, which makes it a better deal than most games I’ve bought.

Ayrilana.1396:

Anet did promise those things and they did deliver on them.

Not really, as many, MANY examples prove.

Many times they made a promise and just left it hanging.

How could we possibly believe when they say they will add more legendary weapons later on? Until now, all – actually 100% – of their promises about more legendary items have not been true.

Vayne.8563:

The funny part is that people ignore the fact that this is in line price wise with other MMO expansions (not equal to, but in line)

Not really. It’s more expensive than expansions from almost all MMORPGs (with WoW being the main exception, but then again Blizzard has always charged high prices).

And besides, based on the content we know is in HoT, it looks more like a DLC than a full expansion.

Vayne.8563:

that we don’t have all the information yet

We have all information ArenaNet thought we needed to prepurchase the game. Ignoring the ethics in asking for payment for a product that doesn’t even have a release window (much less a release date), I wouldn’t be surprised if the information we don’t know yet includes a lot of bad things (like the NPE).

Vayne.8563:

and that the entire game has pretty much been redesigned. It will be a whole new experience

Not really. The levelling experience is going to stay basically the same. It won’t be a few new skills that would make it “a whole new experience”. Same with playing through the content that is already in the game, like the current level 80 areas, or the current dungeons, and so on.

If anything, what we have been told about the HoT maps make them look a lot like more of the same.

Vayne.8563:

But it’s valid to believe that I’m going to get more than 100 hours out of this game, which makes it a better deal than most games I’ve bought.

As you like to say, Vayne, that’s just your opinion. And your opinion isn’t really enough to make a meaningful argument when having a discussion with other people.

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

Anet did promise those things and they did deliver on them.

Not really, as many, MANY examples prove.

Many times they made a promise and just left it hanging.

How could we possibly believe when they say they will add more legendary weapons later on? Until now, all – actually 100% – of their promises about more legendary items have not been true.

Vayne.8563:

The funny part is that people ignore the fact that this is in line price wise with other MMO expansions (not equal to, but in line)

Not really. It’s more expensive than expansions from almost all MMORPGs (with WoW being the main exception, but then again Blizzard has always charged high prices).

And besides, based on the content we know is in HoT, it looks more like a DLC than a full expansion.

Vayne.8563:

that we don’t have all the information yet

We have all information ArenaNet thought we needed to prepurchase the game. Ignoring the ethics in asking for payment for a product that doesn’t even have a release window (much less a release date), I wouldn’t be surprised if the information we don’t know yet includes a lot of bad things (like the NPE).

Vayne.8563:

and that the entire game has pretty much been redesigned. It will be a whole new experience

Not really. The levelling experience is going to stay basically the same. It won’t be a few new skills that would make it “a whole new experience”. Same with playing through the content that is already in the game, like the current level 80 areas, or the current dungeons, and so on.

If anything, what we have been told about the HoT maps make them look a lot like more of the same.

Vayne.8563:

But it’s valid to believe that I’m going to get more than 100 hours out of this game, which makes it a better deal than most games I’ve bought.

As you like to say, Vayne, that’s just your opinion. And your opinion isn’t really enough to make a meaningful argument when having a discussion with other people.

It is just my opinion. And the opinion of lots of other people as well. The problem here is people saying the game isn’t worth it BEFORE we know the extent of the content. All people can say is it isn’t worth it from what we know NOW. Which is quite a different statement.

In line with doesn’t mean equal. The three top games right now are WoW, Guild Wars 2 and Final Fantasy XIV. Of those three top games, two of them charge a sub. If you want to play them you pay every month in addition to paying for a subscription. Guild Wars 2 may charge $50 for the expansion but it doesn’t charge a sub at all and that does make a difference.

Someone, for example, brought up DDO as an alternative game. There are 4 users on the DDO reddit at this time. 4. It doesn’t matter if they don’t charge for an expansion, since no one is actually playing it.

Or you could play Archeage or SWToR, with their “optional” subscription. I know people who play SWToR but I know of no one who plays it who don’t sub to it, because you know, that optional sub…it’s not really so optional when you start playing.

At the end of the day any conversation we have here about the value of the expansion is just going to be an opinion. But when I form an opinion of a game, I compare it to comparable games out there. I don’t isolate the box price of an expansion from the rest of what I have to pay to play a game, because you know, that’s not really honest.

It’s like saying a vacation costs only the price of the hotel, without including the airfare. It doesn’t really work. If you want to play FF, you’re not paying $40 for an expansion. You’re paying $40 for an expansion and then $15 a month for every month after the 30 days you get with the expansion. Therefore that product is more expensive than this expansion, unless you only play it for 30 days and then stop.

A lot of what anet promised to deliver to us during the year of 2013 was probably pushed to the sideline and included in HoT to make the expansion seem more “bulkier”, example being the Precursor ‘crafting’.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see more features crop up in the expansion that we’ve been promised over the years.

However, saying this makes it appear as if i hate Arena net for what they’re doing, and yes, i kind of do, they’re so slow at releasing content updates, and it seems they can’t do anything at all when they’re focusing on an expansion, they can’t even give us existing content again to hold us over until the expansion is finally released (SAB, Queens Pavillion, etc), but at the same time, Guild wars 2 is a great game, it’s just starting to lack a lot of content compared to many other MMO’s out there, i have high hopes for HoT, and i bought the expansion in hopes that it’ll rekindle the flame the game once had, but if it doesn’t, i shan’t be spending any more money on Guild wars 2, on future expansions or the gem store.

Test.8734:

Not really, as many, MANY examples prove.

Many times they made a promise and just left it hanging.

How could we possibly believe when they say they will add more legendary weapons later on? Until now, all – actually 100% – of their promises about more legendary items have not been true.

Many? Really? All of the sources with these “many many examples” contained for examples that refuted your claim and made the many many not seem so many many.

So they made many promises and just left players hanging? That would have to be under the assumption that they did not gives players any updates at all in order to just leave them hanging. So what are these many promises of yours?

They stated in a post back in early 2014, or sometime around then, that precursor crafting and new legendary weapons would be put on hold. They were pretty upfront about it. Do you seriously understand how ridiculous your 100% claim is? Well meaningless is probably a better description since 100% of 1 is 1 (or in your perceived view: 1 of 1 is 100%).

Vayne.8563:

Or you could play Archeage or SWToR, with their “optional” subscription. I know people who play SWToR but I know of no one who plays it who don’t sub to it, because you know, that optional sub…it’s not really so optional when you start playing.

They can play the game, arguably as well as someone who plays GW2 without ever using the Gem Store.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t isolate the box price of an expansion from the rest of what I have to pay to play a game, because you know, that’s not really honest.

Really? Because that comparison is really weak when talking about expansions. In FFXIV, playing the core game requires the monthly fee; buying the expansion (which, for the records, is cheaper than HoT) does not add anything to the fee, ergo the fee isn’t a factor when considering the price of of the expansion. To say otherwise is the same as saying that the price of gems should be added to the price of HoT, since the gem store is ArenaNet’s equivalent of monthly fees.

Ergo, yes, it’s rather reasonable to compare the price of HoT with the price of an expansion for a P2P MMORPG. And when you consider the amount of content… As far as we know, HoT looks like a DLC in comparison.

Ayrilana.1396:

(or in your perceived view: 1 of 1 is 100%).

I’m curious to know how does math work in the alternate reality you live in, for 1 of 1 to not be 100%.

And really, again you are talking without doing research. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have linked the post you claim to exist from 2014, as well as the other updates you claim ArenaNet has used to tell people about their (broken) promises. Right now, all you have is a loveable pile of small cats.

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

(or in your perceived view: 1 of 1 is 100%).

I’m curious to know how does math work in the alternate reality you live in, for 1 of 1 to not be 100%.

And really, again you are talking without doing research. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have linked the post you claim to exist from 2014, as well as the other updates you claim ArenaNet has used to tell people about their (broken) promises. Right now, all you have is a loveable pile of small cats.

Read the rest of my post and you’ll have your answer or I can just tell you again. It has nothing to do with the math but the fact you chose to use one instance and then state that Anet was 100% unable to to fulfill 100% of their promises on that one instance. In other words, the statement of yours was meaningless.

Here’s one link from a quick search. It wasn’t the one I was specifically referring to but it works.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/crafting/gw2-precursor-recipe-scavanger-hunt-news/first#post3780700

Ayrilana.1396:

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

(or in your perceived view: 1 of 1 is 100%).

I’m curious to know how does math work in the alternate reality you live in, for 1 of 1 to not be 100%.

And really, again you are talking without doing research. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have linked the post you claim to exist from 2014, as well as the other updates you claim ArenaNet has used to tell people about their (broken) promises. Right now, all you have is a loveable pile of small cats.

Read the rest of my post and you’ll have your answer or I can just tell you again. It has nothing to do with the math but the fact you chose to use one instance and then state that Anet was 100% unable to to fulfill 100% of their promises on that one instance. In other words, the statement of yours was meaningless.

Here’s one link from a quick search. It wasn’t the one I was specifically referring to but it works.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/crafting/gw2-precursor-recipe-scavanger-hunt-news/first#post3780700

im sorry but that once again proves his point.
Anet changed their plans on precursors,
and they told us it was because they wanted to make it part of a new horizontal progression system
that we could expect in a future feature pack.

which essentially means they told us precursors would be coming in a future feature pack along with a new horizontal progression system (masteries) which has now become part of an expansion.

You have shown us once again any long term plans announced by anet can change, and specifically, something that was once supposed to be part of the current price of admission can be shifted to the next expansion (new price of admission)

as it relates to this thread this basically proves that even if they said we can expect some features of HoT to grow with this expansion, it can end up being pushed back to the next expansion.

thing is anet has changed plans like this a number of times, sometimes by implication, sometimes explicitly.

really, the truth is, anet changes their minds, the only things with high likelyhood of coming to pass are things that are extremely short term. Even when they do deliver, it has often drastically changed from its original intent or purpose. Im not saying they should stop saying anything, but the reality is talk of further specializations, more guild halls, more pvp maps, thats the exact type of stuff that usually gets pushed back or changed so radically it bears little resemblence. And many things been pushed back long enough that they are now content for the next expansion. So dont buy this expansion expecting them to add anything but living story, they might add more stuff, but then again they might not.

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

(or in your perceived view: 1 of 1 is 100%).

I’m curious to know how does math work in the alternate reality you live in, for 1 of 1 to not be 100%.

And really, again you are talking without doing research. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have linked the post you claim to exist from 2014, as well as the other updates you claim ArenaNet has used to tell people about their (broken) promises. Right now, all you have is a loveable pile of small cats.

Read the rest of my post and you’ll have your answer or I can just tell you again. It has nothing to do with the math but the fact you chose to use one instance and then state that Anet was 100% unable to to fulfill 100% of their promises on that one instance. In other words, the statement of yours was meaningless.

Here’s one link from a quick search. It wasn’t the one I was specifically referring to but it works.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/crafting/gw2-precursor-recipe-scavanger-hunt-news/first#post3780700

im sorry but that once again proves his point.
Anet changed their plans on precursors,
and they told us it was because they wanted to make it part of a new horizontal progression system
that we could expect in a future feature pack.

which essentially means they told us precursors would be coming in a future feature pack along with a new horizontal progression system (masteries) which has now become part of an expansion.

You have shown us once again any long term plans announced by anet can change, and specifically, something that was once supposed to be part of the current price of admission can be shifted to the next expansion (new price of admission)

as it relates to this thread this basically proves that even if they said we can expect some features of HoT to grow with this expansion, it can end up being pushed back to the next expansion.

thing is anet has changed plans like this a number of times, sometimes by implication, sometimes explicitly.

really, the truth is, anet changes their minds, the only things with high likelyhood of coming to pass are things that are extremely short term. Even when they do deliver, it has often drastically changed from its original intent or purpose. Im not saying they should stop saying anything, but the reality is talk of further specializations, more guild halls, more pvp maps, thats the exact type of stuff that usually gets pushed back or changed so radically it bears little resemblence. And many things been pushed back long enough that they are now content for the next expansion. So dont buy this expansion expecting them to add anything but living story, they might add more stuff, but then again they might not.

Please read the posts again. Seriously.

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

(or in your perceived view: 1 of 1 is 100%).

I’m curious to know how does math work in the alternate reality you live in, for 1 of 1 to not be 100%.

And really, again you are talking without doing research. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have linked the post you claim to exist from 2014, as well as the other updates you claim ArenaNet has used to tell people about their (broken) promises. Right now, all you have is a loveable pile of small cats.

Read the rest of my post and you’ll have your answer or I can just tell you again. It has nothing to do with the math but the fact you chose to use one instance and then state that Anet was 100% unable to to fulfill 100% of their promises on that one instance. In other words, the statement of yours was meaningless.

Here’s one link from a quick search. It wasn’t the one I was specifically referring to but it works.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/crafting/gw2-precursor-recipe-scavanger-hunt-news/first#post3780700

im sorry but that once again proves his point.
Anet changed their plans on precursors,
and they told us it was because they wanted to make it part of a new horizontal progression system
that we could expect in a future feature pack.

which essentially means they told us precursors would be coming in a future feature pack along with a new horizontal progression system (masteries) which has now become part of an expansion.

You have shown us once again any long term plans announced by anet can change, and specifically, something that was once supposed to be part of the current price of admission can be shifted to the next expansion (new price of admission)

as it relates to this thread this basically proves that even if they said we can expect some features of HoT to grow with this expansion, it can end up being pushed back to the next expansion.

thing is anet has changed plans like this a number of times, sometimes by implication, sometimes explicitly.

really, the truth is, anet changes their minds, the only things with high likelyhood of coming to pass are things that are extremely short term. Even when they do deliver, it has often drastically changed from its original intent or purpose. Im not saying they should stop saying anything, but the reality is talk of further specializations, more guild halls, more pvp maps, thats the exact type of stuff that usually gets pushed back or changed so radically it bears little resemblence. And many things been pushed back long enough that they are now content for the next expansion. So dont buy this expansion expecting them to add anything but living story, they might add more stuff, but then again they might not.

Please read the posts again. Seriously.

i read the posts, what exactly is it you expect me see that i didnt notice before.

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

(or in your perceived view: 1 of 1 is 100%).

I’m curious to know how does math work in the alternate reality you live in, for 1 of 1 to not be 100%.

And really, again you are talking without doing research. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have linked the post you claim to exist from 2014, as well as the other updates you claim ArenaNet has used to tell people about their (broken) promises. Right now, all you have is a loveable pile of small cats.

Read the rest of my post and you’ll have your answer or I can just tell you again. It has nothing to do with the math but the fact you chose to use one instance and then state that Anet was 100% unable to to fulfill 100% of their promises on that one instance. In other words, the statement of yours was meaningless.

Here’s one link from a quick search. It wasn’t the one I was specifically referring to but it works.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/crafting/gw2-precursor-recipe-scavanger-hunt-news/first#post3780700

im sorry but that once again proves his point.
Anet changed their plans on precursors,
and they told us it was because they wanted to make it part of a new horizontal progression system
that we could expect in a future feature pack.

which essentially means they told us precursors would be coming in a future feature pack along with a new horizontal progression system (masteries) which has now become part of an expansion.

You have shown us once again any long term plans announced by anet can change, and specifically, something that was once supposed to be part of the current price of admission can be shifted to the next expansion (new price of admission)

as it relates to this thread this basically proves that even if they said we can expect some features of HoT to grow with this expansion, it can end up being pushed back to the next expansion.

thing is anet has changed plans like this a number of times, sometimes by implication, sometimes explicitly.

really, the truth is, anet changes their minds, the only things with high likelyhood of coming to pass are things that are extremely short term. Even when they do deliver, it has often drastically changed from its original intent or purpose. Im not saying they should stop saying anything, but the reality is talk of further specializations, more guild halls, more pvp maps, thats the exact type of stuff that usually gets pushed back or changed so radically it bears little resemblence. And many things been pushed back long enough that they are now content for the next expansion. So dont buy this expansion expecting them to add anything but living story, they might add more stuff, but then again they might not.

And I wonder how this might have been different if dozens upon dozens of people didn’t demand an expansion.

It might very well have been Anet’s plan to include precursor crafting for free. You make that announcement when no expansion is planned. That’s logical. And as soon as you change direction and you announce an expansion, it’s then logical to put that into an expansion being a major feature.

Do you know, can anyone really know, that when Anet wrote that blogpost it wasn’t supposed to be a free feature?

You can be as judgemental about it as you like but in reality, a good percentage of the fan base was very vocally calling for an expansion. Anet wasn’t going to, at that point, take all the stuff they had been working on and give it away free…because the way content was offered was restructured, free stuff is now going to be part of paid stuff. I’m pretty sure most people would have done the same if it was their business.

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

(or in your perceived view: 1 of 1 is 100%).

I’m curious to know how does math work in the alternate reality you live in, for 1 of 1 to not be 100%.

And really, again you are talking without doing research. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have linked the post you claim to exist from 2014, as well as the other updates you claim ArenaNet has used to tell people about their (broken) promises. Right now, all you have is a loveable pile of small cats.

Read the rest of my post and you’ll have your answer or I can just tell you again. It has nothing to do with the math but the fact you chose to use one instance and then state that Anet was 100% unable to to fulfill 100% of their promises on that one instance. In other words, the statement of yours was meaningless.

Here’s one link from a quick search. It wasn’t the one I was specifically referring to but it works.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/crafting/gw2-precursor-recipe-scavanger-hunt-news/first#post3780700

im sorry but that once again proves his point.
Anet changed their plans on precursors,
and they told us it was because they wanted to make it part of a new horizontal progression system
that we could expect in a future feature pack.

which essentially means they told us precursors would be coming in a future feature pack along with a new horizontal progression system (masteries) which has now become part of an expansion.

You have shown us once again any long term plans announced by anet can change, and specifically, something that was once supposed to be part of the current price of admission can be shifted to the next expansion (new price of admission)

as it relates to this thread this basically proves that even if they said we can expect some features of HoT to grow with this expansion, it can end up being pushed back to the next expansion.

thing is anet has changed plans like this a number of times, sometimes by implication, sometimes explicitly.

really, the truth is, anet changes their minds, the only things with high likelyhood of coming to pass are things that are extremely short term. Even when they do deliver, it has often drastically changed from its original intent or purpose. Im not saying they should stop saying anything, but the reality is talk of further specializations, more guild halls, more pvp maps, thats the exact type of stuff that usually gets pushed back or changed so radically it bears little resemblence. And many things been pushed back long enough that they are now content for the next expansion. So dont buy this expansion expecting them to add anything but living story, they might add more stuff, but then again they might not.

Please read the posts again. Seriously.

i read the posts, what exactly is it you expect me see that i didnt notice before.

I’m not arguing about plans changing as I had already established that they do. In fact, I didn’t even need to because it’s well known that plans do change and not just in this game.

There’s only been a relatively few instances where Anet had stated something and not followed through with. A lot of them were in that blog post from July 2013. What Test is trying to do is argue that since they were unable to follow through with the items that he handpicked then that means you cannot trust them at all with what they state.

Ayrilana.1396:

Please read the posts again. Seriously.

In other words, he’s right and you cannot present any argument showing how he would be wrong.

Do you have any idea of how ridiculous your example sounds? “Hey guys, ArenaNet said they would release feature X in 2013, but they told us in 2014 that it would be a little late…” Oh really?

You are only proving my point (again). Thanks for finding a link that proves how ArenaNet likes to change their minds, so we cannot believe their current promises about future HoT content.

Vayne.8563:

Do you know, can anyone really know, that when Anet wrote that blogpost it wasn’t supposed to be a free feature?

So, if ArenaNet does not fulfill any of their current promises about post-HoT content, are you just going to say “can anyone really know, that when Anet made those promises, they weren’t supposed to be implemented”?

Because, really, if your point is that ArenaNet will often change their minds so something they say they would do one way is either not done or done in a completelly different way, you are just proving my point, Vayne.

Vayne.8563:

And I wonder how this might have been different if dozens upon dozens of people didn’t demand an expansion.

It might very well have been Anet’s plan to include precursor crafting for free. You make that announcement when no expansion is planned. That’s logical. And as soon as you change direction and you announce an expansion, it’s then logical to put that into an expansion being a major feature.

Do you know, can anyone really know, that when Anet wrote that blogpost it wasn’t supposed to be a free feature?

You can be as judgemental about it as you like but in reality, a good percentage of the fan base was very vocally calling for an expansion. Anet wasn’t going to, at that point, take all the stuff they had been working on and give it away free…because the way content was offered was restructured, free stuff is now going to be part of paid stuff. I’m pretty sure most people would have done the same if it was their business.

first, it was not required for them to shift everything that may have been planned as a regular update to an expansion. That was a choice they made, not a requirement of making an expansion.

and its not about being judgemental, its just about seeing patterns, and acting based on those patterns. In this post i am not putting any value judgement on the idea that precursors became expansion material.

i am pointing out there is a historical precedent that the things that they say they intend to add, may get pushed back so long, that you may not see it until the next expansion.

the point is to make people who say, Yeah the expansion may be incomplete, but they will add all these things within the scope of your purchase of HoT, realize that based on the past history that is totally not the case.

Realistically, based on past evidence, you should only expect whatever is shipped with HoT, and that there will be some amount of living story episodes with your purchase. They most likely will add things, but no one has any idea what that may be, it very well may not be any of the features they have said they could expand on later. (within this purchase)

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

Please read the posts again. Seriously.

In other words, he’s right and you cannot present any argument showing how he would be wrong.

Do you have any idea of how ridiculous your example sounds? “Hey guys, ArenaNet said they would release feature X in 2013, but they told us in 2014 that it would be a little late…” Oh really?

You are only proving my point (again). Thanks for finding a link that proves how ArenaNet likes to change their minds, so we cannot believe their current promises about future HoT content.

Vayne.8563:

Do you know, can anyone really know, that when Anet wrote that blogpost it wasn’t supposed to be a free feature?

So, if ArenaNet does not fulfill any of their current promises about post-HoT content, are you just going to say “can anyone really know, that when Anet made those promises, they weren’t supposed to be implemented”?

Because, really, if your point is that ArenaNet will often change their minds so something they say they would do one way is either not done or done in a completelly different way, you are just proving my point, Vayne.

No, actually. I’ll judge them as I always judge them. As a company that has to balance what it gives customers to what they need to do to remain a viable business, which also helps customers in some ways.

You seem to be laboring under the assumption that most things we asked for haven’t been provided to us. I don’t know why you have that assumption.

See, most of the stuff that I was told would be in the game, as I understood it, is in the game. There are absolutely exceptions to that. Things I were told would be in the game that are not in the game.

One example is the bar room brawl and the shooting gallery. Was absolutely stated it would be in the game. 100% fact. Anet said there would be a barroom brawl and a shooting gallery. They didn’t tell me that there’s be Southsun Survivor. They didn’t tell me there’s be Sanctum Sprint. They didn’t tell me there’d be crab toss.

So one minigame was replaced by others. Anet said one thing and delivered something else. It’s not what I expected.

Fortunately, I like the three minigames they did provide quite a lot, even though I might have liked the bar room brawl as much. Pretty sure I wouldn’t have liked the shooting gallery much.

In my mind, Anet talked about and delivered fun minigames. They gave me something to enjoy. Now I could hang on their every word and say that two of the mini games they said would be in the game aren’t. But then, I got stuff I didn’t expect that I really enjoy.

There’s a trade off, as there usually is. Now if you’re so annoyed there’s no shooting gallery or barroom brawl in this game, you might leave the game. But that’s only if you don’t like what was offered in its place. Sanctum Sprint and Southsun Survivor are massively fun for me, even though they weren’t on my radar. I consider this an acceptable trade.

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

(or in your perceived view: 1 of 1 is 100%).

I’m curious to know how does math work in the alternate reality you live in, for 1 of 1 to not be 100%.

And really, again you are talking without doing research. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have linked the post you claim to exist from 2014, as well as the other updates you claim ArenaNet has used to tell people about their (broken) promises. Right now, all you have is a loveable pile of small cats.

Read the rest of my post and you’ll have your answer or I can just tell you again. It has nothing to do with the math but the fact you chose to use one instance and then state that Anet was 100% unable to to fulfill 100% of their promises on that one instance. In other words, the statement of yours was meaningless.

Here’s one link from a quick search. It wasn’t the one I was specifically referring to but it works.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/crafting/gw2-precursor-recipe-scavanger-hunt-news/first#post3780700

im sorry but that once again proves his point.
Anet changed their plans on precursors,
and they told us it was because they wanted to make it part of a new horizontal progression system
that we could expect in a future feature pack.

which essentially means they told us precursors would be coming in a future feature pack along with a new horizontal progression system (masteries) which has now become part of an expansion.

You have shown us once again any long term plans announced by anet can change, and specifically, something that was once supposed to be part of the current price of admission can be shifted to the next expansion (new price of admission)

as it relates to this thread this basically proves that even if they said we can expect some features of HoT to grow with this expansion, it can end up being pushed back to the next expansion.

thing is anet has changed plans like this a number of times, sometimes by implication, sometimes explicitly.

really, the truth is, anet changes their minds, the only things with high likelyhood of coming to pass are things that are extremely short term. Even when they do deliver, it has often drastically changed from its original intent or purpose. Im not saying they should stop saying anything, but the reality is talk of further specializations, more guild halls, more pvp maps, thats the exact type of stuff that usually gets pushed back or changed so radically it bears little resemblence. And many things been pushed back long enough that they are now content for the next expansion. So dont buy this expansion expecting them to add anything but living story, they might add more stuff, but then again they might not.

Please read the posts again. Seriously.

i read the posts, what exactly is it you expect me see that i didnt notice before.

I’m not arguing about plans changing as I had already established that they do. In fact, I didn’t even need to because it’s well known that plans do change and not just in this game.

There’s only been a relatively few instances where Anet had stated something and not followed through with. A lot of them were in that blog post from July 2013. What Test is trying to do is argue that since they were unable to follow through with the items that he handpicked then that means you cannot trust them at all with what they state.

they have changed plans many more times than that blog post.
1)new weapons in a free update, said during beta when people talked about if they might add axes in an expansion.
2)mini games
3)new dynamic events constantly inserted that change with the world
4)ascended
5)adding more guild puzzles/challenges/rushes
6)fractal leaderboards
7)fractal weapon boxes
8)fractal level 51-60 coming soon
9)every dungeon revisted and made more fun

its not a small amount of things that fell to the wayside. And usually its the long term stuff that changes. Understandable in some ways, but still it means that you cant really assume that when they say hey we are going to add more guild halls, it means that it will be with this purchase. It means nothing they talk about possibly doing later may show up withing HoTs lifetime.

They can change their minds, and even changing minds aside, they never specifically said any of this stuff can be expected to be released within the lifetime of HoT.

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

Please read the posts again. Seriously.

In other words, he’s right and you cannot present any argument showing how he would be wrong.

Do you have any idea of how ridiculous your example sounds? “Hey guys, ArenaNet said they would release feature X in 2013, but they told us in 2014 that it would be a little late…” Oh really?

You are only proving my point (again). Thanks for finding a link that proves how ArenaNet likes to change their minds, so we cannot believe their current promises about future HoT content.

No. He missed what my argument was and you seem to as well. You seem to be under the impression that I’ve been arguing against the fact that plans change which I never was.

phys.7689:

they have changed plans many more times than that blog post.
1)new weapons in a free update, said during beta when people talked about if they might add axes in an expansion.
2)mini games
3)new dynamic events constantly inserted that change with the world
4)ascended
5)adding more guild puzzles/challenges/rushes
6)fractal leaderboards
7)fractal weapon boxes
8)fractal level 51-60 coming soon
9)every dungeon revisted and made more fun

its not a small amount of things that fell to the wayside. And usually its the long term stuff that changes. Understandable in some ways, but still it means that you cant really assume that when they say hey we are going to add more guild halls, it means that it will be with this purchase. It means nothing they talk about possibly doing later may show up withing HoTs lifetime.

They can change their minds, and even changing minds aside, they never specifically said any of this stuff can be expected to be released within the lifetime of HoT.

There’s a difference between things being on the table and plans to bring something into the game at a certain point of time. If people are actually assuming the former to be the same as the latter then it’s no wonder that Anet stopped releasing any info whatsoever until they’re ready.

I’m also unsure why you listed items 1-4 as they are, or have been, implemented into the game. Item 5 was something that was on the table and Item 6 was something they failed to deliver. Items 7-8 likely got pushed back to be part of the mastery system. Item 9 is debateable in that I’d prefer new dungeons rather than reworked ones.

Zhaitan says yes.

I’m with everyone else in that MMORPGs are always incomplete. That’s like saying WoW: BC was incomplete because they were planning on adding new zones and classes and races and new level cap later on with future expansions anyway.

Short answer: yes.

As a matter of fact, GW2 was shipped so incomplete that you’re still getting patches and more content released to this day! OH MY GOD, THE HORROR!

Guild Wars 2 – Heart of Thorns – funded by Kickstarter

To the OP: Would you rather like if HoT released complete? If that was the case we wouldn’t see any new content until the next xpac. What matters is the amount of content HoT will provide even if it’s “incomplete”.

And yes, most likely some content will be added at a later point and I don’t see a problem with that. To take your example of Mordremoth possibly coming later during the expansion: In my opinion it would be weird if the Mordremoth fight was already accessible right at the start of HoT because he represents the end of the journey/plot. So I think it’s quite reasonable to timegate some content especially when that content has strong ties to the story. It would also allow them to gather feedback over a longer period of time which could help in (hopefully) designing a better bossfight when it comes to the Moderemoth fight. I think Arenanet realized that the Zhaitan fight was a bit lackluster and it’s safe to assume it would have turned out better if they had more time.

As with any game, the rights and ability lie with ArenaNet. Us players can only comment about how this is happening. As such, no one is entitled to anything else but a refund if they so desire within the terms everyone accepted when buying the game.

The assessment that it might be incomplete cannot be factually determined yet as the actual product has not been released.

Since the Beta Weekend Events (BWE) and Stress Tests are in fact different, which has been known since at least 2 years(https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beta) no one who prepurchased is entitled to partake in the upcoming stresstest. Though admittedly, timing is somewhat unfortunate for those who didn’t do any proper research on what they were paying for.

eats popcorn and hands out buckets to the lurkers

To comment on the OPs question:

First, define “complete”. Do you mean everything they could conceivably think of and implement, and doing it perfectly? If so, then no, it won’t be complete.

An MMO, or expansion for that matter, being “complete” means that there is nothing left to add, nothing left to improve, nothing left to change and adapt. Even when they do an expansion, the core game isn’t “complete”, which is true for all MMOs. However, it has reached a point where doing more with the same old becomes more effort than the end result.

Hence the expansion. It gives them more room to play, more room to develop. It also gives the fans something to do, have fun with, get frustrated by, sing praises of, complain about for, get into arguments about, be amused/moved/bored by, and so on.