Guild Wars 2

If the OP would do some research of Arena net he/she would find out that gear progression is hated by them. It’s the typical MMO design. Make a game, set max level, grind to get to that level, get gear to do the best stuff in the game (because your skills suck, and you need that gear to make you able to do the content), Then you get an expansion raise the level 5 or 10 levels. Grind those levels get new gear to let you do the best content again.

The progression in GW2 is using the best armor u can get Ascended or Legendary Although Exotic works for most things anyway but lets say its Ascended for now.
Masteries and Elite specializations are your gear progression they give you different abilities that were never available before.

Not only in the first part of the expansion, but constantly added content like the living story. In Lake Doric the mastery had to do with your downed state. giving you the ability to do damage to any foe in the area you use it in and interrupting them at the same time. In the newest story line you have the ability to use oakheart essence. That lets you move around like a spider web slinging person to get to places, even while gliding. Those are just examples of what GW2 gear progression is. It is your skill not gear that makes the difference.

All gear progression will do is make GW2 another WoW clone and Anet does not want that ever

Chyanne Waters.8719:

If the OP would do some research of Arena net he/she would find out that gear progression is hated by them. It’s the typical MMO design. Make a game, set max level, grind to get to that level, get gear to do the best stuff in the game (because your skills suck, and you need that gear to make you able to do the content), Then you get an expansion raise the level 5 or 10 levels. Grind those levels get new gear to let you do the best content again.

The progression in GW2 is using the best armor u can get Ascended or Legendary Although Exotic works for most things anyway but lets say its Ascended for now.
Masteries and Elite specializations are your gear progression they give you different abilities that were never available before.

Not only in the first part of the expansion, but constantly added content like the living story. In Lake Doric the mastery had to do with your downed state. giving you the ability to do damage to any foe in the area you use it in and interrupting them at the same time. In the newest story line you have the ability to use oakheart essence. That lets you move around like a spider web slinging person to get to places, even while gliding. Those are just examples of what GW2 gear progression is. It is your skill not gear that makes the difference.

All gear progression will do is make GW2 another WoW clone and Anet does not want that ever

ehhh, i wouldnt say never. I would say they didnt want to do that before. But they still havent ruled out the possibility, and it becomes more likely the longer the game lives. For now i think they are satisfied with masteries and new stat combos though, in terms of new progression mechanics after 80

phys.7689:

Chyanne Waters.8719:

If the OP would do some research of Arena net he/she would find out that gear progression is hated by them. It’s the typical MMO design. Make a game, set max level, grind to get to that level, get gear to do the best stuff in the game (because your skills suck, and you need that gear to make you able to do the content), Then you get an expansion raise the level 5 or 10 levels. Grind those levels get new gear to let you do the best content again.

The progression in GW2 is using the best armor u can get Ascended or Legendary Although Exotic works for most things anyway but lets say its Ascended for now.
Masteries and Elite specializations are your gear progression they give you different abilities that were never available before.

Not only in the first part of the expansion, but constantly added content like the living story. In Lake Doric the mastery had to do with your downed state. giving you the ability to do damage to any foe in the area you use it in and interrupting them at the same time. In the newest story line you have the ability to use oakheart essence. That lets you move around like a spider web slinging person to get to places, even while gliding. Those are just examples of what GW2 gear progression is. It is your skill not gear that makes the difference.

All gear progression will do is make GW2 another WoW clone and Anet does not want that ever

ehhh, i wouldnt say never. I would say they didnt want to do that before. But they still havent ruled out the possibility, and it becomes more likely the longer the game lives. For now i think they are satisfied with masteries and new stat combos though, in terms of new progression mechanics after 80

I really don’t think so. It is pretty much set in stone that they would never add gear progression and higher level than 80, just like they never considered in Guild Wars the possibility to raise the lvl higher than 20. The only way for them to create a level cap higher than lvl 80 with its associated armor, would be to give up on GW2 and create GW3, just like they “sort of” left Guild Wars to create GW2, which in a way raised the max lvl 20 to 80.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Yup that’s exactly right, finally getting that item you have been working for for ages because you really want it and its rare can give a burst of pleasure/prestige, its core to rpg and always has been. Everyone running about with the exact same hammer of godly powerlessness +500 is the other side of the coin. As for player looking bad, that’s the problem of the observer.

Nah, if you dress according to rarity, not aestethics, you are just far more likely to end up dressed in a bunch of completely mismatched gear that do not complement each other. I’ve seen it a lot in the games with no transmutation, where people cared only aboit having good stats. I’ve seen it in GW2 as well. The end result is, most of the time, ugly, simply because there was no care put into it looking good.

And it still carries no prestige. If i even notice people dressed like that, it’s generally only when they look so bad i feel the need to laugh and pity them.

flog.3485:

I really don’t think so. It is pretty much set in stone that they would never add gear progression and higher level than 80, just like they never considered in Guild Wars the possibility to raise the lvl higher than 20.

Well, to be completely honest, they did at some time (pre-launch) consider increasing level cap in the future, and just after the introduction of ascended they were talking about continuing on gear progression course. They’ve just abandoned both of those ideas due to backlash it generated then.

Also, i kind of remember, that the “no raids in gw2” approach was also at some time set in stone. Until it suddenly wasn’t.

So, it is possible they will someday change their mind on that one. It would be a complete betrayal of ideas GW2 was build upon, but it wouldn’t be exactly the first time they deviated from their original course.

I just think it’s not very likely to happen in the foreseeable future. But then, i haven’t foreseen raids either.

Astralporing.1957:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Yup that’s exactly right, finally getting that item you have been working for for ages because you really want it and its rare can give a burst of pleasure/prestige, its core to rpg and always has been. Everyone running about with the exact same hammer of godly powerlessness +500 is the other side of the coin. As for player looking bad, that’s the problem of the observer.

Nah, if you dress according to rarity, not aestethics, you are just far more likely to end up dressed in a bunch of completely mismatched gear that do not complement each other. I’ve seen it a lot in the games with no transmutation, where people cared only aboit having good stats. I’ve seen it in GW2 as well. The end result is, most of the time, ugly, simply because there was no care put into it looking good.

And it still carries no prestige. If i even notice people dressed like that, it’s generally only when they look so bad i feel the need to laugh and pity them.

flog.3485:

I really don’t think so. It is pretty much set in stone that they would never add gear progression and higher level than 80, just like they never considered in Guild Wars the possibility to raise the lvl higher than 20.

Well, to be completely honest, they did at some time (pre-launch) consider increasing level cap in the future, and just after the introduction of ascended they were talking about continuing on gear progression course. They’ve just abandoned both of those ideas due to backlash it generated then.

Also, i kind of remember, that the “no raids in gw2” approach was also at some time set in stone. Until it suddenly wasn’t.

So, it is possible they will someday change their mind on that one. It would be a complete betrayal of ideas GW2 was build upon, but it wouldn’t be exactly the first time they deviated from their original course.

I just think it’s not very likely to happen in the foreseeable future. But then, i haven’t foreseen raids either.

Ah sorry I can’t sympathize with the sentiment of pre-launch because when I started playing, ascended was already introduced in the game if I recall correctly so my bad for that. Other than that, could you please not bring up the topic of raids in this thread ? I get that you hate them. Mind you its implementation is different than in other game, I will leave it as that.

In any other game weapons have a name. But in Guild Wars 2 they mean nothing. Just another skin. With enough cash you can get enough gems to buy gold for everything you need.

So no need to come up with your memes “Muh legendary is hard”.
The game is on decline, after failing at China NCsoft have completly abandoned GW2/Anet from expanding further to NK and JP.

This game had a good concept, but didn’t deliver.

Well at least it is not “failing” as hard as some of its competitor who vow on the “industry standards” like the threadmile …. like Warhammer Online, SW:TOR, ESO etc etc.

If you want a threadmile they are tousand of games that you can play. Why should Anet change their principles and upset a whole lot of their players just to please the “mainstream MMO” player? That market is oversaturated as hell. Games with much higher fanbases behind them (like Star Wars, Warhammer or the Elder Scrolls) tried to get there and failed horribly. At the end it is just not worth the risk….. because the game will definetly loose a whole lot of its current player base when doing that.

Astralporing.1957:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Yup that’s exactly right, finally getting that item you have been working for for ages because you really want it and its rare can give a burst of pleasure/prestige, its core to rpg and always has been. Everyone running about with the exact same hammer of godly powerlessness +500 is the other side of the coin. As for player looking bad, that’s the problem of the observer.

Nah, if you dress according to rarity, not aestethics, you are just far more likely to end up dressed in a bunch of completely mismatched gear that do not complement each other. I’ve seen it a lot in the games with no transmutation, where people cared only aboit having good stats. I’ve seen it in GW2 as well. The end result is, most of the time, ugly, simply because there was no care put into it looking good.

And it still carries no prestige. If i even notice people dressed like that, it’s generally only when they look so bad i feel the need to laugh and pity them.

flog.3485:

I really don’t think so. It is pretty much set in stone that they would never add gear progression and higher level than 80, just like they never considered in Guild Wars the possibility to raise the lvl higher than 20.

Well, to be completely honest, they did at some time (pre-launch) consider increasing level cap in the future, and just after the introduction of ascended they were talking about continuing on gear progression course. They’ve just abandoned both of those ideas due to backlash it generated then.

Also, i kind of remember, that the “no raids in gw2” approach was also at some time set in stone. Until it suddenly wasn’t.

So, it is possible they will someday change their mind on that one. It would be a complete betrayal of ideas GW2 was build upon, but it wouldn’t be exactly the first time they deviated from their original course.

I just think it’s not very likely to happen in the foreseeable future. But then, i haven’t foreseen raids either.

I honestly don’t ever remember the devs saying there’ll be no raids in Guild Wars 2. They may have said at some point they don’t have plans for it, but I don’t even think I remember seeing that.

And seeing as my feelings against raids are pretty strong, there’s a good chance I’d have remembered it being said.

Shortage.5427:

In any other game weapons have a name. But in Guild Wars 2 they mean nothing. Just another skin. With enough cash you can get enough gems to buy gold for everything you need.

So no need to come up with your memes “Muh legendary is hard”.
The game is on decline, after failing at China NCsoft have completly abandoned GW2/Anet from expanding further to NK and JP.

This game had a good concept, but didn’t deliver.

Yep, but you’re still barking up the wrong tree.

Arenanet was very clear on what GW2 would be. Coming now and complaining and asking for them to change one of the very core aspects of their game only because YOU want it that way will accomplish nothing.

From a pure business perspective, why should arenanet risk alienating a big part of their playersbase only to accomodate you?

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Yup that’s exactly right, finally getting that item you have been working for for ages because you really want it and its rare can give a burst of pleasure/prestige, its core to rpg and always has been. Everyone running about with the exact same hammer of godly powerlessness +500 is the other side of the coin. As for player looking bad, that’s the problem of the observer.

Nah, if you dress according to rarity, not aestethics, you are just far more likely to end up dressed in a bunch of completely mismatched gear that do not complement each other. I’ve seen it a lot in the games with no transmutation, where people cared only aboit having good stats. I’ve seen it in GW2 as well. The end result is, most of the time, ugly, simply because there was no care put into it looking good.

And it still carries no prestige. If i even notice people dressed like that, it’s generally only when they look so bad i feel the need to laugh and pity them.

flog.3485:

I really don’t think so. It is pretty much set in stone that they would never add gear progression and higher level than 80, just like they never considered in Guild Wars the possibility to raise the lvl higher than 20.

Well, to be completely honest, they did at some time (pre-launch) consider increasing level cap in the future, and just after the introduction of ascended they were talking about continuing on gear progression course. They’ve just abandoned both of those ideas due to backlash it generated then.

Also, i kind of remember, that the “no raids in gw2” approach was also at some time set in stone. Until it suddenly wasn’t.

So, it is possible they will someday change their mind on that one. It would be a complete betrayal of ideas GW2 was build upon, but it wouldn’t be exactly the first time they deviated from their original course.

I just think it’s not very likely to happen in the foreseeable future. But then, i haven’t foreseen raids either.

I honestly don’t ever remember the devs saying there’ll be no raids in Guild Wars 2. They may have said at some point they don’t have plans for it, but I don’t even think I remember seeing that.

And seeing as my feelings against raids are pretty strong, there’s a good chance I’d have remembered it being said.

they said they wouldnt do raids because they tested it, and 5 players was the perfect place for this games balance and to make it so you didnt have to wait around to get enough players etc.
Which is still the case, but they think players wanted raids, so they made some. Many mechanics actually fail to work in raids, like 5 man buff limits

Everything they say is not law, they are just rough concepts, if the concepts arent working the way they want, they will change them. Its scary for players, but it makes sense, because this is an MMO, its meant to evolve. If a whole lot of people start saying they need some type of vertical progression or they ll lose interest, and their metrics back it up, they will make changes.

Thats why i say never say never.

However, they added elite specs and masteries and new stat combos to try to create a progression goal they can reset periodically without getting impossibly high.

Shortage.5427:

So the game is plagued by casuals who want to downgrade this game to a fashion contest. This actually quiet sad.

Gear progression is the most boring thing someone could come up with in MMOGs and not motivating at all. I hope it gets never into GW2 and I actually prefer real content over gear grind.
I am far from having all my alternate characters equipped with ascended gear and I specifically play GW2 because there is no gear grind (in terms of new tiers), and they promised not to introducing a higher tier.
Actually ascended should not even be in the game and introducing another tier again, would really make me consider quitting the game. I joined because they promised there would not be a repetitive gear grind:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto

…
So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet.
…
Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.
…

When asked in 2014 about gear tiers with stats above the Ascended/Legendary tier, then Game Director Colin Johanson said, “I hope not.” I echo that sentiment. Gear progression is a pointless exercise in busywork.

IndigoSundown.5419:

When asked in 2014 about gear tiers with stats above the Ascended/Legendary tier, then Game Director Colin Johanson said, “I hope not.” I echo that sentiment. Gear progression is a pointless exercise in busywork.

Stil the game lacks progression… besides buy the next traitline to keep competing more easilly.

Classes progress is in damage increase and more condis/boon spam.
They dont actually have a structured class progression trait*build sytem as well, all they have done is added skill that need to be grinded to preggress through maps.
Its controlled time gated gameplay with distractions

Aeolus.3615:

IndigoSundown.5419:

When asked in 2014 about gear tiers with stats above the Ascended/Legendary tier, then Game Director Colin Johanson said, “I hope not.” I echo that sentiment. Gear progression is a pointless exercise in busywork.

Stil the game lacks progression… besides buy the next traitline to keep competing more easilly.

Classes progress is in damage increase and more condis/boon spam.
They dont actually have a structured class progression trait*build sytem as well, all they have done is added skill that need to be grinded to preggress through maps.
Its controlled time gated gameplay with distractions

is it progress if the map simply scales up?
then you have to rebalance the level up and gear grind so new players can catch up.
truth is power grind is not that great, however, i do realize that many people lose interest if they cant see bigger numbers.

The only real advantage i would say of a power grind game, is they dont need to make you grind so much at one time. GW2 loads all the grind at the ascended and legendary teirs, where other games spread it out.
the other advantage is that its a lot easier to come up with incentives to play. New cosmetics, will only once in awhile be an effective carrot because its subjective.

really neither system is perfect, but they have chosen this path, they cant really give you what you want, without basically alienating 90%(my estimate) of their playerbase. I’m not saying 90% of people hate grind, but the amount of grind they made people do for ascended, i dont think people would ever be ok with doing again.

Aeolus.3615:

IndigoSundown.5419:

When asked in 2014 about gear tiers with stats above the Ascended/Legendary tier, then Game Director Colin Johanson said, “I hope not.” I echo that sentiment. Gear progression is a pointless exercise in busywork.

Stil the game lacks progression… besides buy the next traitline to keep competing more easilly.

Classes progress is in damage increase and more condis/boon spam.
They dont actually have a structured class progression trait*build sytem as well, all they have done is added skill that need to be grinded to preggress through maps.
Its controlled time gated gameplay with distractions

I say there’s plenty of progression for the majority of players in learning how to use what’s already in the game. Gear progression is an artificial treadmill. Your characters might get new abilities or skills, but that doesn’t matter if you aren’t able to use them effectively before the next set of options arrives.

Obviously, an important subset of players reach that mark quickly, as evidenced by qtfy.eu’s benchmarks & vanguard-of-the-meta builds. Less obviously, there’s plenty of evidence that they aren’t representative of the majority. Look no farther than how difficult some people still find Vinetooth Prime (AB) or Matriarch (VB) or various slight-better-than-anecdotal data from DPS meters in PUG raiding.

So I write again: gear progression is a standard mechanic in a lot of games that people find fun. That doesn’t mean it’s appropriate, let alone necessary, for this game. Those who want to see that change need to make a case for how it would improve things for the existing community, not just its proponents.

Shortage.5427:

In any other game weapons have a name. But in Guild Wars 2 they mean nothing. Just another skin. With enough cash you can get enough gems to buy gold for everything you need.

So no need to come up with your memes “Muh legendary is hard”.
The game is on decline, after failing at China NCsoft have completly abandoned GW2/Anet from expanding further to NK and JP.

This game had a good concept, but didn’t deliver.

Again … you aren’t recognizing this game for what it is. You are indeed right; everything IS just another skin. The difference is that this is intentional; that IS the game concept and it delivers it quite well in fact. I mean, skins don’t have a name? Is that a serious complaint? It would be rather stupid for Anet, 5 years in, to add a feature that many people enjoyed NOT having.

And no … there are lots of game where weapons don’t have ‘names’. But if named weapons are so important to you, I’m sure you will find pleasure in playing them since GW2 doesn’t deliver for you.

Aeolus.3615:

IndigoSundown.5419:

When asked in 2014 about gear tiers with stats above the Ascended/Legendary tier, then Game Director Colin Johanson said, “I hope not.” I echo that sentiment. Gear progression is a pointless exercise in busywork.

Stil the game lacks progression… besides buy the next traitline to keep competing more easilly.

Classes progress is in damage increase and more condis/boon spam.
They dont actually have a structured class progression trait*build sytem as well, all they have done is added skill that need to be grinded to preggress through maps.
Its controlled time gated gameplay with distractions

Not really … your MMO mindset have to be stuck in the 90’t to think that way. Sorry, 2000’s as well. Progression isn’t just getting levels and better gear. The story of the game progresses constantly; that’s WAY more engaging than some busywork to get the next stat level on some gear. If you want busywork gear stat grinding, well, you have LOTS of choice but hopefully, NEVER in GW2.

Guild Wars 1 managed to give progression by skills instead of weapons and gear, in the sequel we mostly have elite specs which don’t measure. That being said, there would be a mass exodus if they ever increase the gear level. There was massive outcry when ascended was announced and many people probably quit there because they joined under the no-gear grind mantra. IF they do implement it, I can guarantee the game will lose its identity.

Gear grinds can be inserted into the game without replacing the gear anyways, simply make a grindable “buff” growth every patch for certain zones or modes. Then you get to the idea of: “Why?” though.

Shortage.5427:

So the game is plagued by casuals who want to downgrade this game to a fashion contest. This actually quiet sad.

Yes, go play Diablo 3 and leave us filthy casuals here to play something that’s actually fun because it’s not a mindless grind over the same items with 2 stat more.

It’s funny how perspectives can be different. When I log in, I always feel like there’s way too much to do that I could never possibly ever do and I get overwhelmed.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

So I write again: gear progression is a standard mechanic in a lot of games that people find fun. That doesn’t mean it’s appropriate, let alone necessary, for this game. Those who want to see that change need to make a case for how it would improve things for the existing community, not just its proponents.

Fashion is the real gear progression in this game. Has been at least as far back as I started playing.

(Not arguing with you. Just commenting in relation to what you’re saying.)

…
So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet.
…

What I find funny about this quote (and correct me if I’m wrong about this or anything else in my post) is that metabuilds kind of fall into this trap anyway. Less about the metabuilds themselves and more about gear gestapos who demand that you play a certain meta for certain content or GTFO.

LFG kind of alleviates this if you can find a group who isn’t insistent on you running a metabuild but it still gives me the impression that this flies right in the face of the “play what you wanna play” mantra GW2 had before.

Then again, in retrospect and in my opinion, it’s not a problem created by Anet but the community.

OP, I totally agree with you.

For now I am enjoying the world and I just unlocked the Mastery system what feels like progression to me. Even more meaningful than Gear progression. I hope they expand on this part of the game.

I totally understand you coming from MMORPG’s where being the most powerful was the most important goal. I do think that this is a good goal and that Guild Wars 2 is immensely lacking in this area. Everybody seems to defend the casual nature of the game but the customer is not always right. I think this game would have much more appeal if the progression aspect was much more apparent.

This is just my opinion though but I do think that it is holding the game back.

To expand on my post, progression is not the only thing lacking from the game. There is no rarity. Everything is obtainable and crafting is not the same as in other MMORPG’s. There is no excitement when killing a mob to drop a really unique item. Yes you can drop precursors, but I do not think these are enough. Maybe its tied to the lack of progression. If Legendary Weapons would REALLY be Legendary I would understand. But they are not, everybody is walking around with them. They have mediocre stats and do not make you all that powerful. There is no prestige or status left anymore with having one.

GW2 is not the kind of game to make moot all your hard work at maxing out your characters by raising the level cap. They said so before the release of HoT and I fully agree with that decision. Like others have stated, practically every other MMO does that. Do we really want another carbon copy on the market? If I had to do that for my 16 characters with the release of every expansion, I’d abandon the game. It all comes down to the basic principle of not being able to please everyone.

Obtena.7952:

Shortage.5427:

(snip)

.

(snip)

Aeolus.3615:

IndigoSundown.5419:

(…).

(snip)

Not really … your MMO mindset have to be stuck in the 90’t to think that way. Sorry, 2000’s as well. Progression isn’t just getting levels and better gear. The story of the game progresses constantly; that’s WAY more engaging than some busywork to get the next stat level on some gear. If you want busywork gear stat grinding, well, you have LOTS of choice but hopefully, NEVER in GW2.

Nice, people that invent text when reading other people text… i never said i wanted gear progeression and lvl’s…

Like i said before ascended gear was already to much, adding more would be even worse.. imo it woudl kill the game.

What i said is that the current class progression u have is buy the next traitline, it will have more damage than the older ones, will do somethiing that is mandatory for some new pve map, or even a easyer gimmick.

Its wrong as well…

If we get any kind of gear progression, I’d rather it be new kinds of gear that allows for new mechanics. I don’t want to grind out for higher stats than ascended.

Shortage.5427:

Also it’s a MMORPG game. There is no MMORPG without some type of grinding or gear progression.

There was this game called Guild Wars where you were stat capped at the end of the tutorial and all of your progression was acquiring more build options. I heard it was successful enough to spawn a sequel!

Its almost like the same people that make this game made that one!

People’s tastes change over time. If you’re looking for a gear progression game, this isn’t that game. They do a lot of marketing to make sure to tell people that a lack of gear grind is something that differentiates this product from its competitors because the goal is to draw people in that want to play this game, not people that are already playing a different kind of game.

GW1 was extremely successful specifically because of how unlike it was in a crowded field of everquest clones. GW2 is following that same philosophy. While i don’t agree with everything they do here, I don’t think that endless vertical progression that makes you contantly throw out your “elite” gear every year because its now worse than common drops in the new expansion is something I would consider a Guild Wars game.

rewarding and easy not good? i like gw2 becouse i am able to get the best gear even if i am not a pro mmo player. i only have to spend time. in getting gold and crafting. i try to make enough gold to craft ascended gear and if its made i am very proud and happy with it. yesterday i completed hronk set. and now i have to grind new maps for the rings and trinkets and backpack. it cost time but i can get it and that makes this game nice.

in wow only the mythic ppl are able for the best gear. you work for it and cost much gold and after a big patch you can do all over again. its very bad. i no more play wow

i hate it if only the best ppl can get stuff. i play most times fps games but now i wanted to play gw2 cuz they ruined the fps game and i want to make a healer class.
world bosses can be nice. i am not a raider not a pvper. sometimes i do wvsw but not all day long.

not everyone is pro and noobs also want have fun in game

What people haven’t realized yet when this criticism is tossed out is you chase oranges instead of apples.

You just make the grind for something else so not everyone has to be forced into it.

What we have here is literally people saying oranges are for casuals.

Dindin.2378:

I totally understand you coming from MMORPG’s where being the most powerful was the most important goal.

You can. This kind of “progression” does exist here. It’s just skill based, not gear based. In order to become more powerful, you need to become more skilled at the game. There’s no shortcut of just getting a better gear and pretending that it somehow made you a better player.

Astralporing.1957:

Dindin.2378:

I totally understand you coming from MMORPG’s where being the most powerful was the most important goal.

You can. This kind of “progression” does exist here. It’s just skill based, not gear based. In order to become more powerful, you need to become more skilled at the game. There’s no shortcut of just getting a better gear and pretending that it somehow made you a better player.

This.

Higher and higher tiers of gear that allow you to do astronomical amounts of damage to old foes in order to create the illusion of being more powerful while maintaining the status quo in new content, rather than learning to play better is the antithesis of the gw franchise.

Ashen.2907:

Astralporing.1957:

Dindin.2378:

I totally understand you coming from MMORPG’s where being the most powerful was the most important goal.

You can. This kind of “progression” does exist here. It’s just skill based, not gear based. In order to become more powerful, you need to become more skilled at the game. There’s no shortcut of just getting a better gear and pretending that it somehow made you a better player.

This.

Higher and higher tiers of gear that allow you to do astronomical amounts of damage to old foes in order to create the illusion of being more powerful while maintaining the status quo in new content, rather than learning to play better is the antithesis of the gw franchise.

Not to mention that this type of gear treadmill tends to make older content effectively obsolete. Which is why most MMOs are a wasteland except for the endgame zones.

PopeUrban.2578:

Shortage.5427:

Also it’s a MMORPG game. There is no MMORPG without some type of grinding or gear progression.

There was this game called Guild Wars where you were stat capped at the end of the tutorial and all of your progression was acquiring more build options. I heard it was successful enough to spawn a sequel!

Its almost like the same people that make this game made that one!

People’s tastes change over time. If you’re looking for a gear progression game, this isn’t that game. They do a lot of marketing to make sure to tell people that a lack of gear grind is something that differentiates this product from its competitors because the goal is to draw people in that want to play this game, not people that are already playing a different kind of game.

GW1 was extremely successful specifically because of how unlike it was in a crowded field of everquest clones. GW2 is following that same philosophy. While i don’t agree with everything they do here, I don’t think that endless vertical progression that makes you contantly throw out your “elite” gear every year because its now worse than common drops in the new expansion is something I would consider a Guild Wars game.

guild wars had the title grinds that gave you better skills and higher damage and more resistance the more you did in the expansion areas.
So yeah its a thing most developers always put in, in some way or another

If you don’t like GW2’s emphasis on fashionable skins on weapons…

How legendary is your Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker working out for you in WoW?

Dindin.2378:

To expand on my post, progression is not the only thing lacking from the game. There is no rarity. Everything is obtainable and crafting is not the same as in other MMORPG’s. There is no excitement when killing a mob to drop a really unique item. Yes you can drop precursors, but I do not think these are enough. Maybe its tied to the lack of progression. If Legendary Weapons would REALLY be Legendary I would understand. But they are not, everybody is walking around with them. They have mediocre stats and do not make you all that powerful. There is no prestige or status left anymore with having one.

Boy am I glad I don’t play this game for status. There are skins that very very few people have btw.

99% of the players of the game probably don’t have pinnacle weapons. I have them and almost never use them. Because I just want my characters to look cool. I don’t need status to enjoy the game.

The status situation is what I dislike most about the addition of raids to the game. I thought the game was a better game before legendary armor became the new status symbol.

Vayne.8563:

Dindin.2378:

To expand on my post, progression is not the only thing lacking from the game. There is no rarity. Everything is obtainable and crafting is not the same as in other MMORPG’s. There is no excitement when killing a mob to drop a really unique item. Yes you can drop precursors, but I do not think these are enough. Maybe its tied to the lack of progression. If Legendary Weapons would REALLY be Legendary I would understand. But they are not, everybody is walking around with them. They have mediocre stats and do not make you all that powerful. There is no prestige or status left anymore with having one.

Boy am I glad I don’t play this game for status. There are skins that very very few people have btw.

99% of the players of the game probably don’t have pinnacle weapons. I have them and almost never use them. Because I just want my characters to look cool. I don’t need status to enjoy the game.

The status situation is what I dislike most about the addition of raids to the game. I thought the game was a better game before legendary armor became the new status symbol.

I would like to celebrate on this rare occasion that I agree with you completely on this one. Status symbols don’t fulfill people in my experience, but people nonetheless seek them as an attempt to fulfill unmet needs and then they don’t get what they want out of it. But they are a great way to prey on peoples’ unmet needs, whether knowingly or unintentionally.

And for those who want to fulfill their need for creativity with a greater quantity of options, the focus on status makes options more inaccessible, making it more difficult to fulfill that need for creativity through this game. That is just one example I know from my experiences where it can detract from the fulfillment of peoples’ needs rather than adding to it.

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

Dindin.2378:

To expand on my post, progression is not the only thing lacking from the game. There is no rarity. Everything is obtainable and crafting is not the same as in other MMORPG’s. There is no excitement when killing a mob to drop a really unique item. Yes you can drop precursors, but I do not think these are enough. Maybe its tied to the lack of progression. If Legendary Weapons would REALLY be Legendary I would understand. But they are not, everybody is walking around with them. They have mediocre stats and do not make you all that powerful. There is no prestige or status left anymore with having one.

Boy am I glad I don’t play this game for status. There are skins that very very few people have btw.

99% of the players of the game probably don’t have pinnacle weapons. I have them and almost never use them. Because I just want my characters to look cool. I don’t need status to enjoy the game.

The status situation is what I dislike most about the addition of raids to the game. I thought the game was a better game before legendary armor became the new status symbol.

I would like to celebrate on this rare occasion that I agree with you completely on this one. Status symbols don’t fulfill people in my experience, but people nonetheless seek them as an attempt to fulfill unmet needs and then they don’t get what they want out of it. But they are a great way to prey on peoples’ unmet needs, whether knowingly or unintentionally.

And for those who want to fulfill their need for creativity with a greater quantity of options, the focus on status makes options more inaccessible, making it more difficult to fulfill that need for creativity through this game. That is just one example I know from my experiences where it can detract from the fulfillment of peoples’ needs rather than adding to it.

I have to disagree. Exchange the word “status” with “gear treadmill” and “level treadmill” in your post and you could say the exact same thing about MMOs that keep increasing the level or gear cap (which most other MMOs do). Yet many people crave exactly this kind of progress because they enjoy it.

Fact is, the game is supposed to be fun and if people enjoy aiming for something or want to chase after some arbitrary carrot, if they have fun while doing so they are doing it right. This has nothing to do with some kind of unfullfilled “need”.

The big difference is, GW2 aims to offer players different types of goals to aim for without seting up the requirement to keep playing just to maintain a staus quo equipment wise. This is the core point which most enjoy. Having the developers add different arbitrary goals is fine. As is, skins are optional and if you do not enjoy hunting for them because you do not enjoy the process that’s fine. Don’t look down on people enjoying the collection process only because you approach the game differently though.

Cyninja.2954:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

Dindin.2378:

To expand on my post, progression is not the only thing lacking from the game. There is no rarity. Everything is obtainable and crafting is not the same as in other MMORPG’s. There is no excitement when killing a mob to drop a really unique item. Yes you can drop precursors, but I do not think these are enough. Maybe its tied to the lack of progression. If Legendary Weapons would REALLY be Legendary I would understand. But they are not, everybody is walking around with them. They have mediocre stats and do not make you all that powerful. There is no prestige or status left anymore with having one.

Boy am I glad I don’t play this game for status. There are skins that very very few people have btw.

99% of the players of the game probably don’t have pinnacle weapons. I have them and almost never use them. Because I just want my characters to look cool. I don’t need status to enjoy the game.

The status situation is what I dislike most about the addition of raids to the game. I thought the game was a better game before legendary armor became the new status symbol.

I would like to celebrate on this rare occasion that I agree with you completely on this one. Status symbols don’t fulfill people in my experience, but people nonetheless seek them as an attempt to fulfill unmet needs and then they don’t get what they want out of it. But they are a great way to prey on peoples’ unmet needs, whether knowingly or unintentionally.

And for those who want to fulfill their need for creativity with a greater quantity of options, the focus on status makes options more inaccessible, making it more difficult to fulfill that need for creativity through this game. That is just one example I know from my experiences where it can detract from the fulfillment of peoples’ needs rather than adding to it.

I have to disagree. Exchange the word “status” with “gear treadmill” and “level treadmill” in your post and you could say the exact same thing about MMOs that keep increasing the level or gear cap (which most other MMOs do). Yet many people crave exactly this kind of progress because they enjoy it.

Fact is, the game is supposed to be fun and if people enjoy aiming for something or want to chase after some arbitrary carrot, if they have fun while doing so they are doing it right. This has nothing to do with some kind of unfullfilled “need”.

The big difference is, GW2 aims to offer players different types of goals to aim for without seting up the requirement to keep playing just to maintain a staus quo equipment wise. This is the core point which most enjoy. Having the developers add different arbitrary goals is fine. As is, skins are optional and if you do not enjoy hunting for them because you do not enjoy the process that’s fine. Don’t look down on people enjoying the collection process only because you approach the game differently though.

I don’t think I conveyed myself clearly. It was not my intention to criticize those who seek difficult-to-attain items. I was commenting on status symbols and how it is unfulfilling to seek a status symbol, since it is ultimately just a symbol and doesn’t fulfill one’s needs. I was not referring to the process of completing a goal, which can fulfill one’s need for fun and recreation.

The difference in what I’m saying is in what the reason is for which one does the activity. If someone completes a collection for the fun of achieving a goal that is different from completing a collection to gain a status symbol; when completing a goal purely for the status symbol, the person is unlikely to get any satisfaction out of the process or the results and may come away upset that it didn’t provide the satisfaction they thought it would. When completing a goal for the fun of the process, the person will be getting satisfaction as they go along and then get a sense of satisfaction when they are finished, before moving onto another goal or something else in their life.

I have a question though because it seems to me that you’re saying you are in it for the goal completion. If there was no reward, would you still try to complete them?

Labjax.2465:

I don’t think I conveyed myself clearly. It was not my intention to criticize those who seek difficult-to-attain items. I was commenting on status symbols and how it is unfulfilling to seek a status symbol, since it is ultimately just a symbol and doesn’t fulfill one’s needs. I was not referring to the process of completing a goal, which can fulfill one’s need for fun and recreation.

The difference in what I’m saying is in what the reason is for which one does the activity. If someone completes a collection for the fun of achieving a goal that is different from completing a collection to gain a status symbol; when completing a goal purely for the status symbol, the person is unlikely to get any satisfaction out of the process or the results and may come away upset that it didn’t provide the satisfaction they thought it would. When completing a goal for the fun of the process, the person will be getting satisfaction as they go along and then get a sense of satisfaction when they are finished, before moving onto another goal or something else in their life.

I have a question though because it seems to me that you’re saying you are in it for the goal completion. If there was no reward, would you still try to complete them?

You keep missunderstanding, some people enjoy achieving or gaining a status symbol (not only ingame by the way, ever notice how all those million- , biollionaers compete about who has the biggest yacht? Or car, or anything for that matter. It;s not only the super rich by the way). Others enjoy the process they take to achieve such symbol. Big parts of live are status symbols bye the way. How else would you explain expensive sport cars. Yet those who own them take pleasure in owning them.

Only because you do not place value on such items does not mean others are wrong about chosing to do so. This entire game is an absolute waste of time unless you get enjoyment out of it. To argue that other peoples enjoyment is less correct than your own is insane.

Arenanet provides a canvas with different colors (aka different things people can do and achieve). How you use those colors and which colors you use is up to each individual to decide.

As far as myself, I stick to things I mostly enjoy. Some of which provide bigger rewards, others fewer. I take breaks when I’ve had my share of GW2 and come back weeks or months later when I feel like it. Would I do jumping puzzles if there were no achievement points associated? Sure. Would I do dailies if there were no achievement points associated, probably not.

Cyninja.2954:

Labjax.2465:

I don’t think I conveyed myself clearly. It was not my intention to criticize those who seek difficult-to-attain items. I was commenting on status symbols and how it is unfulfilling to seek a status symbol, since it is ultimately just a symbol and doesn’t fulfill one’s needs. I was not referring to the process of completing a goal, which can fulfill one’s need for fun and recreation.

The difference in what I’m saying is in what the reason is for which one does the activity. If someone completes a collection for the fun of achieving a goal that is different from completing a collection to gain a status symbol; when completing a goal purely for the status symbol, the person is unlikely to get any satisfaction out of the process or the results and may come away upset that it didn’t provide the satisfaction they thought it would. When completing a goal for the fun of the process, the person will be getting satisfaction as they go along and then get a sense of satisfaction when they are finished, before moving onto another goal or something else in their life.

I have a question though because it seems to me that you’re saying you are in it for the goal completion. If there was no reward, would you still try to complete them?

You keep missunderstanding, some people enjoy achieving or gaining a status symbol (not only ingame by the way, ever notice how all those million- , biollionaers compete about who has the biggest yacht? Or car, or anything for that matter. It;s not only the super rich by the way). Others enjoy the process they take to achieve such symbol. Big parts of live are status symbols bye the way. How else would you explain expensive sport cars. Yet those who own them take pleasure in owning them.

Only because you do not place value on such items does not mean others are wrong about chosing to do so. This entire game is an absolute waste of time unless you get enjoyment out of it. To argue that other peoples enjoyment is less correct than your own is insane.

Arenanet provides a canvas with different colors (aka different things people can do and achieve). How you use those colors and which colors you use is up to each individual to decide.

As far as myself, I stick to things I mostly enjoy. Some of which provide bigger rewards, others fewer. I take breaks when I’ve had my share of GW2 and come back weeks or months later when I feel like it. Would I do jumping puzzles if there were no achievement points associated? Sure. Would I do dailies if there were no achievement points associated, probably not.

I can see that you believe I’m saying what is the “right” or “wrong” way to enjoy something and that’s not the message I’m trying to convey. As I said earlier in the thread, in my experience, status symbols don’t fulfill people. Lots of people seek them and many over time, in various facets of life, have talked about their experiences with how shallow it ultimately feels when they get it. I can see that it came across like I was judging it as wrong for people to enjoy status symbols.

I was instead meaning that in my experience, people don’t enjoy them. That they are tricked into thinking they will want them, but when they get them, they don’t receive the fulfillment that they thought they would.

I have experienced this multiple times throughout my life. As I recall, it usually goes for me something like this: A fleeting sense of happiness followed by a feeling of emptiness and/or isolation. Sometimes even fear that it will be taken away. I have never, in memory, come away from it feeling like a need of mine was met.

Recently, in fact, there was a situation where someone gave me a sort of “award” for some work I had done. I didn’t know who had given to it to me at first, but I was touched by the gesture, assuming that it had come from someone who appreciated what I’d done. I enjoyed this feeling at first, but it felt kind of hollow not knowing for sure who, why, or where it had come from and been motivated by. Sometime later, the person who had given it to me contacted me and told me that it was them who had given it to me, someone I was familiar with and who had expressed sincere appreciation of my work in the past. I thanked them profusely for their gesture, expressing how it had touched me, and still find myself thinking about it 2-3 days later with fondness. It was the memory of an exchange of sincere gratitude that stuck with me, not the award itself.

Vayne.8563:

The status situation is what I dislike most about the addition of raids to the game. I thought the game was a better game before legendary armor became the new status symbol.

You’re being subjective here. If they added a type of content which appealed to you, you wouldn’t dislike it. Players always create “status symbols” out of thin air. AP numbers, specific titles, legendaries, they are all used to that purpose. It’s not something inherent to the object in question, it’s the perception of the players.

Vayne.8563:

Dindin.2378:

To expand on my post, progression is not the only thing lacking from the game. There is no rarity. Everything is obtainable and crafting is not the same as in other MMORPG’s. There is no excitement when killing a mob to drop a really unique item. Yes you can drop precursors, but I do not think these are enough. Maybe its tied to the lack of progression. If Legendary Weapons would REALLY be Legendary I would understand. But they are not, everybody is walking around with them. They have mediocre stats and do not make you all that powerful. There is no prestige or status left anymore with having one.

Boy am I glad I don’t play this game for status. There are skins that very very few people have btw.
99% of the players of the game probably don’t have pinnacle weapons. I have them and almost never use them. Because I just want my characters to look cool. I don’t need status to enjoy the game.
The status situation is what I dislike most about the addition of raids to the game. I thought the game was a better game before legendary armor became the new status symbol.

The problem with “status symbols” is that about 90% to 95% of the gaming population just does not care what weapon nor what armour someone has on.
I see someone with something that causes footfall stuff and I may remark to myself “they have a legendary”. Most times I don’t even say that to myself. Never have I asked which one is it. I don’t pay attention to what armour anyone has so if anyone had legendary I would not even realize it unless they chatted about it in game. I keep changing the dyes on mine own to make it fun for me, others would probably disagree and think that it looks horrible since I pick greens, pinks, purples, oranges, etc.

I don’t mean this to be rude at all so please don’t take it that way…

Instead of seeking more power from gear progression you should dedicate the next 1600 hours towards getting good at actually playing your classes. How many of your characters can you replicate meta golem benchmarks on? Have you killed all raid bosses including wing 4 challenge motes? Have you got to Legendary in a pvp season? Have you gotten top 50 on pvp leader board in a season?

These are all goals you can give yourself that would be an expression of some sort of skill and dedication to the game besides garbage gear progression. If you find gear progression is more fun than skill progression gw2 isn’t the game for you.

Feanor.2358:

Vayne.8563:

The status situation is what I dislike most about the addition of raids to the game. I thought the game was a better game before legendary armor became the new status symbol.

You’re being subjective here. If they added a type of content which appealed to you, you wouldn’t dislike it. Players always create “status symbols” out of thin air. AP numbers, specific titles, legendaries, they are all used to that purpose. It’s not something inherent to the object in question, it’s the perception of the players.

This is factually untrue. I’ve often argued for rewards to be brought out in multiple game types, even though the game type it was out in was something I enjoyed.

I’m in favor of people getting rewards for playing the areas of the game they enjoy. I’ve always been for that. I always will be.

Forcing people into areas they don’t enjoy doesn’t make the game better for anyone. Keeping rewards from people who don’t like a specific game type doesn’t seem like a good idea to me.

That’s why they added dungeon reward tracks to PvP and WvW and I was all for it, even though I ran plenty of dungeons.

Vayne.8563:

Forcing people into areas they don’t enjoy doesn’t make the game better for anyone.

That’s factually untrue. It did make it better for me, on two separate occasions. First, I was forced into WvW because of the Gift of Battle change. And I ended up enjoying it. Second, I was forced into raiding, because I’m kind of completionist and want everything possible for my main. I ended up enjoying that, too.

The big negative of giving the same reward across multiple game modes is it doesn’t stimulate you to step out of your current comfort zone. People tend to stick with what they know. Giving them an incentive to try something new objectively does make the game better.

A valid middle ground would be to introduce a new set, with different means of acquisition. This way you’d still keep the incentive for people to try raiding, while giving another for something else. But ANet seem reluctant to do it for some reason.

P.S. It’s not a coincidence they added reward tracks as an alternative of content they chose to no longer support.

Feanor.2358:

Vayne.8563:

Forcing people into areas they don’t enjoy doesn’t make the game better for anyone.

That’s factually untrue. It did make it better for me, on two separate occasions. First, I was forced into WvW because of the Gift of Battle change. And I ended up enjoying it. Second, I was forced into raiding, because I’m kind of completionist and want everything possible for my main. I ended up enjoying that, too.

The big negative of giving the same reward across multiple game modes is it doesn’t stimulate you to step out of your current comfort zone. People tend to stick with what they know. Giving them an incentive to try something new objectively does make the game better.

A valid middle ground would be to introduce a new set, with different means of acquisition. This way you’d still keep the incentive for people to try raiding, while giving another for something else. But ANet seem reluctant to do it for some reason.

P.S. It’s not a coincidence they added reward tracks as an alternative of content they chose to no longer support.

It is true. Because you ended up enjoying it. You were forced into an area of the game that you didn’t know if you’d like or not and ended up enjoying it. I’ve raided enough, several hours now, to know that I don’t enjoy it. I’ve PvPed that much as well.

If I enjoyed it, this conversation wouldn’t be happening.

The point stays. If the approach makes some players discover new content they enjoy, it’s good for the game and it makes it better. That it didn’t work for you is unfortunate, but doesn’t make it objectively bad.

Feanor.2358:

Vayne.8563:

Forcing people into areas they don’t enjoy doesn’t make the game better for anyone.

That’s factually untrue. It did make it better for me, on two separate occasions. First, I was forced into WvW because of the Gift of Battle change. And I ended up enjoying it. Second, I was forced into raiding, because I’m kind of completionist and want everything possible for my main. I ended up enjoying that, too.

Then you’re not from a category Vayne was speaking of, since he clearly mentioned people that didn’t enjoy the content.
In your case you were simply unaware the content might be fun to you. A reward that didn’t require such heavy investment into gamemode would likely worked for you as well. If you truly didn’t like it, being forced into it would not make you change your mind.

Feanor.2358:

The big negative of giving the same reward across multiple game modes is it doesn’t stimulate you to step out of your current comfort zone. People tend to stick with what they know. Giving them an incentive to try something new objectively does make the game better.

Agreed. As long as the incentive remains at the try level. Legendary armor goes miles beyond that level.

Feanor.2358:

P.S. It’s not a coincidence they added reward tracks as an alternative of content they chose to no longer support.

Like HoT and LS3 maps, for example?

Astralporing.1957:

Then you’re not from a category Vayne was speaking of, since he clearly mentioned people that didn’t enjoy the content.

It’s impossible to create content that everybody enjoys. There will always be those who like it and those who don’t. Vayne’s point would be correct if nobody enjoyed the raids and forcing everyone into them was to their own misery. This clearly isn’t the case, I used myself as an example.

Astralporing.1957:

As long as the incentive remains at the try level. Legendary armor goes miles beyond that level.

Why should it remain at the try level? Legendary weapons, too, require to go all the way in the map completion. You don’t get it for completing one map.

The game is better without gear grind or level grind and was sold on the basis of it, further confirmed by the absence of gear and level grind in Heart of Thorns and replaced with the mastery system.

Whether the mastery system succeeded in it’s goal or not is a different discussion entirely. GW2 was made without gear grind and it needs to stick to it’s guns.