Guild Wars 2

Manthas.6234:

Coulter.2315:

1) Join a raid guild (remember you can be member of multiple guilds), I log in at raid time and access it within a few minutes.
2) No one can control the rate at which you feel you achieve things.
3) I have no idea what to say to this, it demands the entire game is balanced around your feelings (are you asking nothing that you cannot achieve can exist??)
4) I completely understand this point, I was surprised how late it seems LS3 is coming (from the AMA). I am looking forward to some more content too, but the raid has been brilliant so give plenty of thumbs up to the raid team at Anet.
5) I agree again.

I think your dissatisfaction at no new content for you is causing you to want to drag content designed for others to you, I understand the feeling but it should be fought against. I would suggest starting positive threads asking for more content designed for you rather than trying to warp raids.

Wing 2 was excellent btw (2nd boss a bit meh) and I really appreciate what Anet have done with the raid in general, lots of variety in mechanics and cannot wait for more (such excitement on TS after seeing a teaser of what might be next).

You see, the thing is, I don’t want to change my playstyle and as I mentioned before, core GW2 used to satisfy all of my needs. I view raids as an invader to the playstyle I adore and I believe they don’t have a place in GW2 as they are at the moment.

You could say, that I am selfish perhaps. But from my point of view, raids came here to my perfect game and messed it up.

To be honest, yes it seems selfish. Raids are only a small part of GW2, and it has, relative to other content, a small developer footprint. Continue doing the content you enjoy. Don’t despair when others enjoy content you don’t like.

Hopefully, the drought of new content will end soon.

I swear gamers are getting more and more entitled these days. Everyone wants to have access to everything without putting in any effort.

Expecting to achieve something without putting in the work required to do so is an entitled and selfish mindset, not just in GW2 but in all areas of life.

Want a car? Save money and buy it.

Want a smoking hot girlfriend? Put yourself out there.

Want raid armor in a video game? Play the bloody raid.

Sure, some people will have a more difficult time achieving certain goals than other people. Welcome to life.

The “entitlement” argument is ridiculous. If anyone is entitled, it is those gamers who cried for hard content, you know, the ones who weren’t satisfied with core gw2 and wanted Anet to design content just for them.

The controversy over legendary armor is this. Many gw2 players have stated their dislike of raids and raiding culture long before Anet decided to implement raids. Anet decides to go ahead and institute raiding in the game. Before Anet knows if raiding is going to be popular or accepted, they decide to gate legendary armor behind them.

I think it was a bad move by Anet. There are players that have come to gw2 precisely because it didn’t have raiding. There needs to be an alternative plan to acquire legendary armor. Maybe a pvp track that rewards you with the necessary materials to craft the legendary armor.

Dashingsteel.3410:

The “entitlement” argument is ridiculous. If anyone is entitled, it is those gamers who cried for hard content, you know, the ones who weren’t satisfied with core gw2 and wanted Anet to design content just for them.

The controversy over legendary armor is this. Many gw2 players have stated their dislike of raids and raiding culture long before Anet decided to implement raids. Anet decides to go ahead and institute raiding in the game. Before Anet knows if raiding is going to be popular or accepted, they decide to gate legendary armor behind them.

I think it was a bad move by Anet. There are players that have come to gw2 precisely because it didn’t have raiding. There needs to be an alternative plan to acquire legendary armor. Maybe a pvp track that rewards you with the necessary materials to craft the legendary armor.

The great thing about guild wars 2 is that you can play the content you like. Like hard content? Raid. Like easy or medium tier content? Dungeons, fractals, or open world.

Don’t despair when anet makes content you don’t like. They can’t cater to everyone simultaneously. Play the content you like. No one is forcing you to raid.

As for legendary armor, it’s basically a skin. It has the same stats as ascended. Are you upset that you are “forced” to pvp or fractals for a legendary backpiece? That you are “forced” to map complete for a legendary weapon? If you don’t like the content, don’t do it. Get exotic or ascended, in the way you like to play.

I like raids. Some people don’t. I don’t like WvW. Some people do. I don’t ask anet to stop building wvw because I personally don’t enjoy it.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t recall Anet EVER saying you won’t have to raid to get BiS gear.

I don’ recall ever seeing Idaho, which doesn’t change the fact that it exists.

Obtena.7952:

Raids are dungeons/dungeons are raids; It’s just a label. You ALWAYS needed to do them to get BiS gear.

This is a falsehood. A complete fabrication. It would be accurate if you exchanged the word ALWAYS with NEVER. I really hope that claim represents ignorance of the facts on your part rather than intentional dishonesty.

You can easily argue either side, if you ignore the past.
Bottom line?
A lot of us have stopped spending money in this game.
Either the raiders will suck it up and start paying that money
or things will change back.

It’s ONLY about the money.

The problem is that Anet sold the game to one group of people (super casuals) and then turned completely around with HoT to attract more traditional MMO players. No one ends up being satisfied. And that’s where we are now.

Dashingsteel.3410:

The “entitlement” argument is ridiculous.

It’s actually not, because that’s exactly what you call people who don’t respect the rules and mechanics of the game that they think they should always win which leads them to believe it should be changed so they can win it.

Not sure if people realize this but … you don’t always win games, even ones you pay to get access to.

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t recall Anet EVER saying you won’t have to raid to get BiS gear.

I don’ recall ever seeing Idaho, which doesn’t change the fact that it exists.

OK let me rephrase then: Anet never said that to players.

Obtena.7952:

Raids are dungeons/dungeons are raids; It’s just a label. You ALWAYS needed to do them to get BiS gear.

Ashen.2907:

This is a falsehood. A complete fabrication. It would be accurate if you exchanged the word ALWAYS with NEVER. I really hope that claim represents ignorance of the facts on your part rather than intentional dishonesty.

Oh I get it … you’re one of those people that argue the details and miss the meaning. OK, that’s fair enough. You get BiS gear from doing ‘activities’, regardless of what you want to call them and Anet never gave anyone the impression you shouldn’t have to do these ‘activities’ to get BiS gear either. I could be more vague, but then you would just troll me because I’m being to vague /sigh.

To change the nature of the product after people have put thousands of hours and in some cases a lot of money in to it just seems dishonest to me.4k hrs played £4000+ uk spent on gems 166 mastery points,hive master and golden child titles 44k ley line crystals and similar amounts of other useless currencies.What sort of company takes that sort of time and monetary investment and turns round and changes everything? ANET
Before raids i could have the best gear now i cant.
£4000+ and 4k hrs for second rate gear.

its ‘legendary’ armor, not ‘casual’ armor.

you don’t get legendary rewards for doing casual things.

But at least it’s not like you are required to obtain it to progress, so you aren’t being held back in any way.

eldrin.6471:

To change the nature of the product after people have put thousands of hours and in some cases a lot of money in to it just seems dishonest to me.4k hrs played £4000+ uk spent on gems 166 mastery points,hive master and golden child titles 44k ley line crystals and similar amounts of other useless currencies.What sort of company takes that sort of time and monetary investment and turns round and changes everything? ANET
Before raids i could have the best gear now i cant.
£4000+ and 4k hrs for second rate gear.

This was already explained to you multiple times and everytime you choose to ignore it, I will gladly reiterate it to you: the nature of the product you purchased was not changed. Core did not change and neither did HoT. They might be different from each other, but they did not change. Furthermore, that difference was known to people before HoT was released. You purchased HoT and either 1) you ignored what you were told or 2) made assumptions about what it was. Either way, it’s your fault if HoT didn’t meet expectations you invented.

I come on these forums in the hope that maybe someone from anet will read my coments.i relay have no interest in what you have to say.You complain to support this joke of a forum is were your sent.And for the time being its the only place disgruntled customers who feel cheated can have there say.

No one is saying you can’t come on the forums but if you’re going make false claims about how Anet “changed content” on you to cheat you from your money, l will certainly have no problem asking you to clarify what you think was changed in either of the pieces of content you purchased that give you the IMPRESSION you were cheated from something.

I don’t think it’s too much to ask that people behave like mature and responsible adults; if you think you were cheated, you’re going to need to explain it because from where I sit, Anet was VERY forthcoming with alerting players to the differences in difficulty between HoT and Core and at no time during HoT release was either of those things changed in difficulty to ‘trick’ players like you seem to be implying.

I mean, if your asking Anet to fix something because you’re disgruntled based on your own kittenumptions or lack of due diligence for purchasing HoT … I think you’re going to be even more disappointed than you are now. I doubt those are good reasons for them to reconsider how they have implemented the game, regardless of how many people feel the same way.

The thread is about raids and players being locked out of legendary Armour.
Its not about hot,infact apart from raids i love hot hence the 42.9k ley line crystals(ranked fourth on gw2efficiency).
try reading a thread before you post.

I know what the thread is about and I’ve read the whole thing as a matter of fact. Me responding to your posts IS relevant to the thread because raids are related to HoT and it’s not unreasonable to address people’s specific posts in it, especially when they are highly questionable and suspect … you DO know how the forums work (that’s not a question, but more of a reminder).

let me remind you that it is YOU who brought up how you felt cheated by HoT, so if you’re going to accuse someone of being off topic due to talking about HoT and not raids, have a chance to review your own threads first and foremost before trying to accuse others.

Obtena.7952:

Dashingsteel.3410:

The “entitlement” argument is ridiculous.

It’s actually not, because that’s exactly what you call people who don’t respect the rules and mechanics of the game that they think they should always win which leads them to believe it should be changed so they can win it.

Not sure if people realize this but … you don’t always win games, even ones you pay to get access to.

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t recall Anet EVER saying you won’t have to raid to get BiS gear.

I don’ recall ever seeing Idaho, which doesn’t change the fact that it exists.

OK let me rephrase then: Anet never said that to players.

Obtena.7952:

Raids are dungeons/dungeons are raids; It’s just a label. You ALWAYS needed to do them to get BiS gear.

Ashen.2907:

This is a falsehood. A complete fabrication. It would be accurate if you exchanged the word ALWAYS with NEVER. I really hope that claim represents ignorance of the facts on your part rather than intentional dishonesty.

Oh I get it … you’re one of those people that argue the details and miss the meaning.

That might be because that one little detail changes the entire meaning. One might even say the meaning is in the details. Or the devil. Or the six gods or something.

Obtena.7952:

Dashingsteel.3410:

The “entitlement” argument is ridiculous.

It’s actually not, because that’s exactly what you call people who don’t respect the rules and mechanics of the game that they think they should always win which leads them to believe it should be changed so they can win it.

Not sure if people realize this but … you don’t always win games, even ones you pay to get access to.

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t recall Anet EVER saying you won’t have to raid to get BiS gear.

I don’ recall ever seeing Idaho, which doesn’t change the fact that it exists.

OK let me rephrase then: Anet never said that to players.

Obtena.7952:

Raids are dungeons/dungeons are raids; It’s just a label. You ALWAYS needed to do them to get BiS gear.

Ashen.2907:

This is a falsehood. A complete fabrication. It would be accurate if you exchanged the word ALWAYS with NEVER. I really hope that claim represents ignorance of the facts on your part rather than intentional dishonesty.

Oh I get it … you’re one of those people that argue the details and miss the meaning. OK, that’s fair enough. You get BiS gear from doing ‘activities’, regardless of what you want to call them and Anet never gave anyone the impression you shouldn’t have to do these ‘activities’ to get BiS gear either. I could be more vague, but then you would just troll me because I’m being to vague /sigh.

Its not about minor details, or being vague, or even, “activities.” You claimed that getting BiS had ALWAYs required doing dungeons. That is a complete fabrication. It is the opposite of the truth of the matter.

Anet has stated that Raids are endgame. They have set raids up to be played post level 80. Anet stated that BiS would be earned by level 80, not post level 80. They have since changed that intention (understandably so even if not everyone likes the change), but it was very specifically indicated that BiS gear would not be earned doing post level 80 content. You may not have seen the articles where the statements were made, but that does not mean that they were not made.

Obtena.7952:

Oh I get it … you’re one of those people that argue the details and miss the meaning. OK, that’s fair enough. You get BiS gear from doing ‘activities’, regardless of what you want to call them and Anet never gave anyone the impression you shouldn’t have to do these ‘activities’ to get BiS gear either. I could be more vague, but then you would just troll me because I’m being to vague /sigh.

There’s a real disconnect in this post. What part of, " Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids." did you not understand?

Is it because one can get L80 Exotics via dungeon tokens? News for you. That does not mean you had to do dungeons to get Exotics. That’s what the phrase, “have to raid (dungeon) to get BiS” means. It means there was no alternative. And it means that ANet said that would not be the case back in 2011. That actually was the case when the game launched, and remained the case except for a small period between Asc. rings via FotM and Asc. jewelry via laurels.

No one is saying "can’t get BiS gear without doing anything. You made that up.

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

Dashingsteel.3410:

The “entitlement” argument is ridiculous.

It’s actually not, because that’s exactly what you call people who don’t respect the rules and mechanics of the game that they think they should always win which leads them to believe it should be changed so they can win it.

Not sure if people realize this but … you don’t always win games, even ones you pay to get access to.

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t recall Anet EVER saying you won’t have to raid to get BiS gear.

I don’ recall ever seeing Idaho, which doesn’t change the fact that it exists.

OK let me rephrase then: Anet never said that to players.

Obtena.7952:

Raids are dungeons/dungeons are raids; It’s just a label. You ALWAYS needed to do them to get BiS gear.

Ashen.2907:

This is a falsehood. A complete fabrication. It would be accurate if you exchanged the word ALWAYS with NEVER. I really hope that claim represents ignorance of the facts on your part rather than intentional dishonesty.

Oh I get it … you’re one of those people that argue the details and miss the meaning. OK, that’s fair enough. You get BiS gear from doing ‘activities’, regardless of what you want to call them and Anet never gave anyone the impression you shouldn’t have to do these ‘activities’ to get BiS gear either. I could be more vague, but then you would just troll me because I’m being to vague /sigh.

Its not about minor details, or being vague, or even, “activities.” You claimed that getting BiS had ALWAYs required doing dungeons. That is a complete fabrication. It is the opposite of the truth of the matter.

Anet has stated that Raids are endgame. They have set raids up to be played post level 80. Anet stated that BiS would be earned by level 80, not post level 80. They have since changed that intention (understandably so even if not everyone likes the change), but it was very specifically indicated that BiS gear would not be earned doing post level 80 content. You may not have seen the articles where the statements were made, but that does not mean that they were not made.

I’m sure this has already been covered, but why does raid gear invalidate the promise that “BiS” gear would be earned by level 80 and not afterward? You can obtain gear with equal stats. I don’t see where they promised that all gear would be available prior to or upon reaching level 80. Simply that the gear you obtain after reaching level 80 will not have a statistical advantage. Is that not the case with legendary items?

Further, are there not legendary items available via sources other than raids? If ANet delivered a paid expansion that only made these items available via raiding then I agree that they should provide new legendary items for non-raiders. And why would anyone have a problem with that in a game like this?

But honestly, I am so confused by this thread. It seems simple, as an outsider (new player). With no statistical advantage to gear, it’s all down to fancy skins and bragging rights, right? So why can’t raiders have their fancy skins and bragging rights, and everyone else can have theirs, too? Are resources so short that we need to fight about skins? That gem store seems pretty full of them! What’s the deal? I really don’t get it!

AliamRationem.5172:

So why can’t raiders have their fancy skins and bragging rights, and everyone else can have theirs, too? I really don’t get it!

Your thoughtful question inspired me to revisit the original post……

Furajir.3815:

Now I’m just kittened that I’m denied access because I can’t go full neckbeard status for pve in a game I was told I wouldn’t have to raid in to get the best gear.

It appears that the OP is agitated that his present family priorities impede his ability to aquire those fancy skins and/or bragging rights that he wants in the short term.
He also called raiders “neckbeards”. As someone with a beard and a neck I choose to see that as a compliment on their behalf.

It also appears that pixelated women are somehow involved. Possibly, anet nerfed the visuals of his women, causing further agitation. The state of their auras is unknown.

It would seem logical that given sufficient time and patience, the family circumstances will change and an opportunity will arise to engage in “raiding” and acquire the desired armours. I subscribe to this view myself, owing to my own limiting circumstances, and I look forward to trying raiding in several years, by which time one more wing will hopefully be released.

It would be easy to assume that the OP’s impatience to get the flashy skins stems from a feeling of “entitlement” which is a common and contagious flu-like malady in the MMO community. However, it should be remembered that the asteroid Apophis will impact with the Earth in 2029 and it is my belief that the OP is justified in accelerating his acquisition targets to meet this deadline and look spiffing when the world ends.

AliamRationem.5172:

I’m sure this has already been covered, but why does raid gear invalidate the promise that “BiS” gear would be earned by level 80 and not afterward?

I am not claiming that it does.

I am merely pointing out that Anet did actually, at one point, state that BiS would not require post level 80 content, such as they have defines raids. As you say the current raid gear provides the same stats as non raid gear. I consider legendary equipment to be a QoL matter (and of questionable value in that regard as free switchable stats without at will free switchable runes would be of little use to me). THen of course there are the skins.

Chaos.5072:

I swear gamers are getting more and more entitled these days. Everyone wants to have access to everything without putting in any effort.

Expecting to achieve something without putting in the work required to do so is an entitled and selfish mindset, not just in GW2 but in all areas of life.

Want a car? Save money and buy it.

Want a smoking hot girlfriend? Put yourself out there.

Want raid armor in a video game? Play the bloody raid.

Sure, some people will have a more difficult time achieving certain goals than other people. Welcome to life.

If the only way for me to buy a car was to go out and get a job that I hated, I might still go out and get a job I hated to buy the car. But that job would probably cause stress and pain and annoyance. It would take away time from me that I could be doing stuff I enjoyed.

Of course, that’s the point isn’kitten This isn’t about being lazy or entitled, because I can’t think of anyone who would say they bought this game specifically to do something they didn’t enjoy. The key word here is game.

For a long time. PvP players who hated PvE had one option to get dungeon skins. They had to run dungeons. And people told them to suck it up. You want a dungeon skin, do something you don’t enjoy. Some PvPers did. Did it make them like the game more? No. So Anet went and added dungeon reward tracks.

Anyone who wants to compare a game to real life is free to do so. But people play games to escape real life. I don’t need a second job, or a third job or any job. Anet isn’t paying me to play this game, I bought this game from Anet. And if Anet wants me to spend more money in the gem store, they’re certainly not going to lock a reward behind content I don’t enjoy. Content that stresses me out. Because options are good.

Stat sets and legendary armor, and story are all inside raids. I’m not liking that, not because I NEED that stuff, but because now, for the first time, I feel like a second class citizen in this game.

You’re right. I could work for it. I could put myself out there and do everything I need to do to become good at raiding. I have that ability. But I’d stop enjoying the game for hours and hours and I’d eventually quit.

You call that a good solution. Because I’m not sure Anet would.

Vayne.8563:

for the first time, I feel like a second class citizen in this game.

Honest question here…

How does having the vast majority of the game aligned with your preferred style of play make you feel like a second class citizen compared to players for whom only a tiny percentage of the game is aligned with their preferred style of play?

Is not getting everything your way, some times (rarely) having others get something they want, what defines being a second class citizen now? If my mother, when I was a child, had given my sister a tiny slice of cake and the rest of the cake (nearly the whole thing) to me, would I have been treated as a second class citizen because I didn’t get the whole cake?

AliamRationem.5172:

I’m sure this has already been covered, but why does raid gear invalidate the promise that “BiS” gear would be earned by level 80 and not afterward? You can obtain gear with equal stats. I don’t see where they promised that all gear would be available prior to or upon reaching level 80. Simply that the gear you obtain after reaching level 80 will not have a statistical advantage. Is that not the case with legendary items?

Correct, L. Armor will not have a statistical advantage over Asc. Armor. However, some consider L. to be a higher tier because of the OoC stat switch feature.

Further, are there not legendary items available via sources other than raids? If ANet delivered a paid expansion that only made these items available via raiding then I agree that they should provide new legendary items for non-raiders. And why would anyone have a problem with that in a game like this?

Currently, ANet has no plans to release L. Armor attainable by any means other than raids. Some raiders seem to have brought along from other games the idea that raiders “deserve” better stuff as raid rewards than are attainable elsewhere in “easier” content. ANet seems to be taking the view that L. is a cosmetic tier — and since skins were always planned to be the rewards for certain content, have taken that approach. The way they iterate, however, this could change.

But honestly, I am so confused by this thread. It seems simple, as an outsider (new player). With no statistical advantage to gear, it’s all down to fancy skins and bragging rights, right? So why can’t raiders have their fancy skins and bragging rights, and everyone else can have theirs, too? Are resources so short that we need to fight about skins? That gem store seems pretty full of them! What’s the deal? I really don’t get it!

Some raiders want exclusive access to skins. My guess is this is at least in part a prestige issue. Other people want them because, well, they want them. The argument about whether raiders deserve better rewards than other players is as old as rewards in raids. It’s people being people — having agendas, preferences, feeling entitled to something, or what have you.

As to resources. L. Armor was hinted at less than a year after launch. It was actually promised as a raid reward 14 months ago. The first raid wing has been out ~4 months and still no sign of L. Armor. At this rate, yes, there is a decided shortage of resources, insofar as prestige skins go. There is no prestige attached to gem store skins. Anyone can buy them, you can wear them without ever taking a character out of your home city.

IndigoSundown.5419:

As to resources. L. Armor was hinted at less than a year after launch. It was actually promised as a raid reward 14 months ago. The first raid wing has been out ~4 months and still no sign of L. Armor. At this rate, yes, there is a decided shortage of resources, insofar as prestige skins go. There is no prestige attached to gem store skins. Anyone can buy them, you can wear them without ever taking a character out of your home city.

Anything in this game that isn’t forcing you to do something completely solo has the same issue. Groups are able to clear raids with less than 10 people and sell the remaining spots. If you’re really rich and/or lazy (or know the right people), you can simply keep buying/leeching raid spots to get tokens and drops and obtain Legendary Armor without ever learning any mechanic or fight properly whatsoever.

If you look at it his way, nothing that allows someone to be carried by a good group has any prestige whatsoever, because you can never know if they did it legitimately or just threw gold at the problem until they got what they wanted.

Sourde Noire.5286:

If you look at it his way, nothing that allows someone to be carried by a good group has any prestige whatsoever, because you can never know if they did it legitimately or just threw gold at the problem until they got what they wanted.

Just like in real life.

Don’t worry you can buy legendary armor off the trading post…er I mean LFG

So let me see if I have this down; Anet has always claimed that making armor is far more developer intensive than making outfits so they pour developer time into making raids which are played by 5% of the population and then pour more into armor that will only be used by 5% of said player base. Time well spent I’d say lol!

Locking anything considered the best option into any one type of content is just flat out bad design. Every top tier item that is in the game should be made available in all formats, dungeons, fractals, pve, pvp, wvw, crafting that’s just bloody logical and any counter argument is just elitism pure and simple. Top tier items should be a reward for playing the game not for playing one particular way that’s just divisive nonsense. The main fear raiders have always had is that if the rewards weren’t there then people wouldn’t do the content to get them well by conclusion it means they don’t like doing that type of content or they would acquire it that way.

mpKing.1420:

Don’t worry you can buy legendary armor off the trading post…er I mean LFG

3000g for 8/12 on the collection is £260 in gems and this is just tier 1
converting gems to gold and buying runs this Armour will probably cos £1000+

eldrin.6471:

In the past we had choices about how we went about getting our gear,if you didn’t like one way you could get it another,and thats what attracted so meany people to this game,i think the term used was play how you want.The game is becoming more do what we(anet)want when we want it done and i think most players do not like that.
I relay hope anet can get the mess they have made sorted before this game goes down the not so mystic toilet

Ascended is the highest stat tier, tied with legendary. You can get that from any game mode.

It’s ok to have exclusive skins tied to a particular game mode. It’s a way for players to progress.

Legendary items always required participation in particular content. For weapons, you need to map complete. For the backpiece, you need to pvp (or, eventually, fractals). For armor you need to raid. This “exclusivity” for legendary items has been in the game since day 1.

Absurdo.8309:

Legendary items always required participation in particular content.

This hasn’t been true for any legendary weapon until the ones released with HoT.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Absurdo.8309:

Legendary items always required participation in particular content.

This hasn’t been true for any legendary weapon until the ones released with HoT.

True, you could buy them with gold. Personally, I was ok with this, but I don’t think most of the player base was. The argument is that legendary items should show prestige. Regardless, you can currently buy raid runs, if you have enough gold.

And whats the difference from buying from the tp or buying raid runs?
The cost is 10 times as high and the only winners are anet.
does this add to the prestige?
hope so

Vayne.8563:

For a long time. PvP players who hated PvE had one option to get dungeon skins. They had to run dungeons. And people told them to suck it up. You want a dungeon skin, do something you don’t enjoy. Some PvPers did. Did it make them like the game more? No. So Anet went and added dungeon reward tracks.

Dungeon skins were available through PVP at game release. Sure they required a high rank to obtain but you could obtain them by playing PVP alone. The dungeon tracks were added when the PVP currency, glory, was removed and the whole concept of PVP-skins was scrapped.

The dungeon tracks weren’t added so PVPers could get dungeon skins, they were added so PVP could offer some form of rewards similar to PVE. And also for pure PVE players who can’t run dungeons to get the rewards through custom arena farming.

Just a correction

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

for the first time, I feel like a second class citizen in this game.

Honest question here…

How does having the vast majority of the game aligned with your preferred style of play make you feel like a second class citizen compared to players for whom only a tiny percentage of the game is aligned with their preferred style of play?

Is not getting everything your way, some times (rarely) having others get something they want, what defines being a second class citizen now? If my mother, when I was a child, had given my sister a tiny slice of cake and the rest of the cake (nearly the whole thing) to me, would I have been treated as a second class citizen because I didn’t get the whole cake?

There’s a lot of answers to this. Because raiding has been pretty much the main form of new content, pretty much everyone is talking raids. It’s not that everyone is into raids, but what else is there to talk about? It’s not like I’m going to talk about jumping puzzles, because there’s nothing more to say about them. I’ve done them all. I love them, but you know, that’s it.

The other thing that’s being pushed is the PvP tournament. That’s the other thing people are talking about.

So I’ve done most of the stuff in the game I want to, and what’s left? Raids or PvP, neither of which interest me. The new rewards I can go for? Raids and PvP.

I have 8 legendary weapons, all the ones I really want, and I’m working on a 9th because I’ve run out of things to do. Really the only time I’m actually having fun at this point is helping guildies get through stuff.

Of course, I’m going to feel this game isn’t for me when my way forward is to do all the stuff I don’t really enjoy. How else could I feel but disenfranchised.

At the end of the day, I’m going through the motions right now, because I love the guild and I enjoy helping people, but for me, there’s very little left to do. Hell I don’t even get achievement points for dailies anymore, so I come in, get my log in reward, gather a few things, home instance, guild hall, my secret garden in Mount Maelstrom and I look and see that nothing is really new but raids and the PvP tournament.

Yes, I have a bunch of other stuff I can do. The game is mostly the kind of content I like. I have 30 plus level 80 characters, at least 6 world completes, 8 legendaries, I’ve beaten all the dungeons, I’ve gone to about level 41 personal fractal level, but I’ve done fractals as high as 60. It’s not my passion anyway. I’ve done the meta events in the new zones a bunch of times and yes, I have to do them a bunch more, but what I see coming out is raids, and PvP.

The new schedule seems to indicate I’m going to get four updates a year with story. Is that enough for me? Maybe. I’ll have to see how big the updates are.

My interests are not in line with what people are currently doing and talking about.

Legendary armor might be something I’d work towards. That’s a goal I can embrace. But in reality, I’m simply not going to raid to do it.

Sure it’s only stat changing, I already have complete suits of light, medium and heavy ascended stuff and I already have all the ascended weapons I can want. The only thing I’d probably want to work toward at this point if legendary armor. But not at the price of being forced to play game content I don’t enjoy.

Edit: I also have most of the elite specialization weapons, a boatload of black lion skins I don’t use because I have too many skins unlocked, 28k plus achievement points, all the weapon masters except shield master, all the slayer achievements except giant slayer…do I log in for shield kills and slaying giants. It wouldn’t hold my interest and if I focused on it, It’d take me a few weeks at most, during which I’d be bored to tears. I have some collections to fill in that will get filled in as I do more metas in the new zones. Beyond that, yeah. There’s raids. I’m even up to 163 mastery points spent.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

So let me see if I have this down; Anet has always claimed that making armor is far more developer intensive than making outfits so they pour developer time into making raids which are played by 5% of the population and then pour more into armor that will only be used by 5% of said player base. Time well spent I’d say lol!

Locking anything considered the best option into any one type of content is just flat out bad design. Every top tier item that is in the game should be made available in all formats, dungeons, fractals, pve, pvp, wvw, crafting that’s just bloody logical and any counter argument is just elitism pure and simple. Top tier items should be a reward for playing the game not for playing one particular way that’s just divisive nonsense. The main fear raiders have always had is that if the rewards weren’t there then people wouldn’t do the content to get them well by conclusion it means they don’t like doing that type of content or they would acquire it that way.

Totally incorrect. Not even close to reality.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

Totally incorrect. Not even close to reality.

Well that’s a valid rebuttal if I’ve ever seen one. Why even waste the time to log in to say anything, really? It’s reality and it hurts to hear it.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

For a long time. PvP players who hated PvE had one option to get dungeon skins. They had to run dungeons. And people told them to suck it up. You want a dungeon skin, do something you don’t enjoy. Some PvPers did. Did it make them like the game more? No. So Anet went and added dungeon reward tracks.

Dungeon skins were available through PVP at game release. Sure they required a high rank to obtain but you could obtain them by playing PVP alone. The dungeon tracks were added when the PVP currency, glory, was removed and the whole concept of PVP-skins was scrapped.

The dungeon tracks weren’t added so PVPers could get dungeon skins, they were added so PVP could offer some form of rewards similar to PVE. And also for pure PVE players who can’t run dungeons to get the rewards through custom arena farming.

Just a correction

Thanks for the correction.

eldrin.6471:

And whats the difference from buying from the tp or buying raid runs?
The cost is 10 times as high and the only winners are anet.
does this add to the prestige?
hope so

Eldrin, I think you misunderstand. Legendary items always required completing particular content, with the exception of buying them off the trading post. It’s no different now with raids. And you can buy raid runs, if you really want to.

Ascended, the best in slot stat, is available from any game mode. Yes, you can’t get legendary armor without raids, but you couldn’t get other legendary items without certain content either.

I didn’t respond to the actual topic earlier, so here it goes:

When Fractals were released so many years back, they got the latest shinny (Ascended Rings), in a similar manner Raids got the new shinny (Legendary Armor).

I for one believe that allowing players to get Envoy Armor (the name of the Raid legendary armor) outside Raids would hurt the game more than help it. But another named Legendary Armor through other content types wouldn’t be unreasonable at all, in the same way how Fractals and PVP give a different Legendary back item.

Although I can understand why some players are upset about the Legendary Armor acquisitions, may I remind everyone that we don’t know how we will get Legendary Armor yet? We don’t have the full collection yet, and that collection we see now is only the first tier. What will be required for tier 2 and maybe tier 3?

Can the “Add Legendary Armor through other types of content” resume after we get the chance of crafting the first Legendary Armor? Then we can talk about adding it elsewhere. It gets to the point that people want to get things “locked” behind some other content, before that other content awards them.

And the new Ascended Trinket stats that are available only in the Raid would make excellent additions for LS3 achievements, exactly how LS2 worked. I’d urge caution and patience on the subject as we don’t know the full plan yet.

Absurdo.8309:

eldrin.6471:

And whats the difference from buying from the tp or buying raid runs?
The cost is 10 times as high and the only winners are anet.
does this add to the prestige?
hope so

Eldrin, I think you misunderstand. Legendary items always required completing particular content, with the exception of buying them off the trading post. It’s no different now with raids. And you can buy raid runs, if you really want to.

Ascended, the best in slot stat, is available from any game mode. Yes, you can’t get legendary armor without raids, but you couldn’t get other legendary items without certain content either.

Forgive me if I am mistaken as my first hand knowledge of crafting legendary weapons is nonexistent due to finding them to all be exceedingly ugly, but didn’t creating an origal legendary weapon call for participation in a variety of content rather than one specific type of conent such as raids?

Ashen.2907:

Absurdo.8309:

eldrin.6471:

And whats the difference from buying from the tp or buying raid runs?
The cost is 10 times as high and the only winners are anet.
does this add to the prestige?
hope so

Eldrin, I think you misunderstand. Legendary items always required completing particular content, with the exception of buying them off the trading post. It’s no different now with raids. And you can buy raid runs, if you really want to.

Ascended, the best in slot stat, is available from any game mode. Yes, you can’t get legendary armor without raids, but you couldn’t get other legendary items without certain content either.

Forgive me if I am mistaken as my first hand knowledge of crafting legendary weapons is nonexistent due to finding them to all be exceedingly ugly, but didn’t creating an origal legendary weapon call for participation in a variety of content rather than one specific type of conent such as raids?

Yes, but you also cannot finish legendary armor just by raiding. For example, you need to beat chak gerent five times. Also, by the collection description at least, the collection only awards the precursor. We don’t know what else will be required.

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t recall Anet EVER saying you won’t have to raid to get BiS gear.

I don’ recall ever seeing Idaho, which doesn’t change the fact that it exists.

OK let me rephrase then: Anet never said that to players.

This comment from http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/21/guild-wars-2-interview-monetization/ seems applicable:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.” – Mike O’Brien, President of Arenanet

Legendary armor allowing stat swapping makes it better than merely ascended. Some might try to argue that it isn’t, but a very large number of players disagree. At the very least it certainly is not “differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone” as stated above. For that matter, ascended itself violated the “no grind – visual appearance differences only” principle. LOTS of people were extremely unhappy when ANet added ascended armor.

Maybe the “solution” is to just allow stat-swapping on all ascended items? “Hard core” or “elite” peeps who want to raid or whatever would still have their exclusive, elite skins to show their skill/work/whatever and those who don’t want to do those activities could still get best gear by playing how they want. This approach to “best gear” is obviously and clearly a part of how they originally sold the game.

Obtena.7952:

Raids are dungeons/dungeons are raids; It’s just a label. You ALWAYS needed to do them to get BiS gear.

Ashen.2907:

This is a falsehood. A complete fabrication. It would be accurate if you exchanged the word ALWAYS with NEVER. I really hope that claim represents ignorance of the facts on your part rather than intentional dishonesty.

Oh I get it … you’re one of those people that argue the details and miss the meaning. OK, that’s fair enough. You get BiS gear from doing ‘activities’, regardless of what you want to call them and Anet never gave anyone the impression you shouldn’t have to do these ‘activities’ to get BiS gear either. I could be more vague, but then you would just troll me because I’m being to vague /sigh.

I have never even bothered to do all dungeons but had BiS gear on all characters back when exotic was BiS. Now I have ascended weapons on most and ascended armor on a few. ANet very much gave everybody the impression that you could “play how you want” and get BiS gear. Not only did they give that impression but they trumpeted it as a selling point of the game. Then they actually released the game that way. You could get BiS gear, which was exotic, from practically any kind of play. Playing open world and doing events or even just running around killing stuff would get you BiS gear. Karma exotic gear was and is easy.

Then they released ascended. Very different story. But even after that it was still largely the case that you could get ascended gear by playing how you want. It took a lot longer and a lot more gold, but it was still true that you could play how you want and eventually get it. Even when they changed legendary weapons to allow stat-swapping it was still true. Play how you want for long enough and you get any legendary you want. Now with legendary armor, it is no longer the case. It isn’t just a skin. If you want the best armor in the game, you must raid. Or pay someone to raid for you. This seems to be why some people are upset. Even if not that much of a difference (and it isn’t) the direction of the game is bothering people.

Doesn’t matter much to me. I played many hours of GW from before the release of Factions and I have played a lot of hours since the pre-release of GW2, but am definitely way more casual than hard core. As mentioned above, I never even did all the dungeons. It doesn’t bother me not to have a bunch of “bling” and I usually have more gold than stuff I really want to spend it on. There is all sorts of stuff to do in the game that I just haven’t gotten around to doing. But it is a little annoying that there is BiS gear out there that PHIW will not get me if I ever did decide I wanted it. I really, really like HoT. The maps are amazing and the challenge level is fine and, unlike some, I even enjoyed the personal story. It is quite entertaining. But if ANet keeps moving in the direction they appear headed, I will hesitate to buy the next expansion. It is hard to put a finger on it, but maybe it is sort of a trust thing. I understand wanting to include raid type content to appeal to a subset of their player base or even to attract new players, but there seems to be a disconnect or misdirection of focus. There were a lot of people to whom they sold this game via the kind of vision O’Brien cast in the quote above. ANet needs to do everything possible to stick closely to that vision if they want to keep those people. Obviously money is the primary factor that guides their decision-making and they need to do whatever they think makes them the most money. Maybe their metrics show they don’t want those players to whom they originally sold that vision? Or maybe they think those folks won’t leave no matter what they do? I doubt that. But regardless, the game has changed a lot and not always for the better for those casual players who play GW2 because it is (was) casual-oriented.

maddoctor.2738:

I didn’t respond to the actual topic earlier, so here it goes:

When Fractals were released so many years back, they got the latest shinny (Ascended Rings), in a similar manner Raids got the new shinny (Legendary Armor).

I for one believe that allowing players to get Envoy Armor (the name of the Raid legendary armor) outside Raids would hurt the game more than help it. But another named Legendary Armor through other content types wouldn’t be unreasonable at all, in the same way how Fractals and PVP give a different Legendary back item.

Although I can understand why some players are upset about the Legendary Armor acquisitions, may I remind everyone that we don’t know how we will get Legendary Armor yet? We don’t have the full collection yet, and that collection we see now is only the first tier. What will be required for tier 2 and maybe tier 3?

Can the “Add Legendary Armor through other types of content” resume after we get the chance of crafting the first Legendary Armor? Then we can talk about adding it elsewhere. It gets to the point that people want to get things “locked” behind some other content, before that other content awards them.

And the new Ascended Trinket stats that are available only in the Raid would make excellent additions for LS3 achievements, exactly how LS2 worked. I’d urge caution and patience on the subject as we don’t know the full plan yet.

This is a good point. If ANet eventually makes legendary armor available in this way, there is little cause for objection. People cannot really complain with much validity if the argument becomes “but I can’t get it first without raiding.” You can still get it by “playing how you want.”

William Bradley Knight.2609:

maddoctor.2738:

I didn’t respond to the actual topic earlier, so here it goes:

When Fractals were released so many years back, they got the latest shinny (Ascended Rings), in a similar manner Raids got the new shinny (Legendary Armor).

I for one believe that allowing players to get Envoy Armor (the name of the Raid legendary armor) outside Raids would hurt the game more than help it. But another named Legendary Armor through other content types wouldn’t be unreasonable at all, in the same way how Fractals and PVP give a different Legendary back item.

Although I can understand why some players are upset about the Legendary Armor acquisitions, may I remind everyone that we don’t know how we will get Legendary Armor yet? We don’t have the full collection yet, and that collection we see now is only the first tier. What will be required for tier 2 and maybe tier 3?

Can the “Add Legendary Armor through other types of content” resume after we get the chance of crafting the first Legendary Armor? Then we can talk about adding it elsewhere. It gets to the point that people want to get things “locked” behind some other content, before that other content awards them.

And the new Ascended Trinket stats that are available only in the Raid would make excellent additions for LS3 achievements, exactly how LS2 worked. I’d urge caution and patience on the subject as we don’t know the full plan yet.

This is a good point. If ANet eventually makes legendary armor available in this way, there is little cause for objection. People cannot really complain with much validity if the argument becomes “but I can’t get it first without raiding.” You can still get it by “playing how you want.”

This is how I expect it to work, and given how Ascended worked, first through fractals, then guild missions, dailies, crafting, drops etc there is reason to believe that’s what they will do with Legendary Armor. I wouldn’t expect them to say it though, until the time is right, which means at least until we are able to craft it.

Fingers crossed

maddoctor.2738:

This is how I expect it to work, and given how Ascended worked, first through fractals, then guild missions, dailies, crafting, drops etc there is reason to believe that’s what they will do with Legendary Armor. I wouldn’t expect them to say it though, until the time is right, which means at least until we are able to craft it.Fingers crossed

I on the other hand would expect them to say that is their intent, if for no other reason than to assure those who are opposed to this whole methodology that this will become available other than through raiding. What do they have to lose long term that they are not at risk losing now?
Like many others I have logged in far less and with far less motivation lately than at any other time since the launch and much of it has to do with not liking the direction of things in HoT, this being one of the things I disliked the most. I hate the whole raiding special snowflake crap and all the nasty bs elitism it fosters. Anet needs to get back to the way they were and stop gating things period.

AliamRationem.5172:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

Dashingsteel.3410:

The “entitlement” argument is ridiculous.

It’s actually not, because that’s exactly what you call people who don’t respect the rules and mechanics of the game that they think they should always win which leads them to believe it should be changed so they can win it.

Not sure if people realize this but … you don’t always win games, even ones you pay to get access to.

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t recall Anet EVER saying you won’t have to raid to get BiS gear.

I don’ recall ever seeing Idaho, which doesn’t change the fact that it exists.

OK let me rephrase then: Anet never said that to players.

Obtena.7952:

Raids are dungeons/dungeons are raids; It’s just a label. You ALWAYS needed to do them to get BiS gear.

Ashen.2907:

This is a falsehood. A complete fabrication. It would be accurate if you exchanged the word ALWAYS with NEVER. I really hope that claim represents ignorance of the facts on your part rather than intentional dishonesty.

Oh I get it … you’re one of those people that argue the details and miss the meaning. OK, that’s fair enough. You get BiS gear from doing ‘activities’, regardless of what you want to call them and Anet never gave anyone the impression you shouldn’t have to do these ‘activities’ to get BiS gear either. I could be more vague, but then you would just troll me because I’m being to vague /sigh.

Its not about minor details, or being vague, or even, “activities.” You claimed that getting BiS had ALWAYs required doing dungeons. That is a complete fabrication. It is the opposite of the truth of the matter.

Anet has stated that Raids are endgame. They have set raids up to be played post level 80. Anet stated that BiS would be earned by level 80, not post level 80. They have since changed that intention (understandably so even if not everyone likes the change), but it was very specifically indicated that BiS gear would not be earned doing post level 80 content. You may not have seen the articles where the statements were made, but that does not mean that they were not made.

I’m sure this has already been covered, but why does raid gear invalidate the promise that “BiS” gear would be earned by level 80 and not afterward? You can obtain gear with equal stats. I don’t see where they promised that all gear would be available prior to or upon reaching level 80. Simply that the gear you obtain after reaching level 80 will not have a statistical advantage. Is that not the case with legendary items?

Further, are there not legendary items available via sources other than raids? If ANet delivered a paid expansion that only made these items available via raiding then I agree that they should provide new legendary items for non-raiders. And why would anyone have a problem with that in a game like this?

But honestly, I am so confused by this thread. It seems simple, as an outsider (new player). With no statistical advantage to gear, it’s all down to fancy skins and bragging rights, right? So why can’t raiders have their fancy skins and bragging rights, and everyone else can have theirs, too? Are resources so short that we need to fight about skins? That gem store seems pretty full of them! What’s the deal? I really don’t get it!

It’s confusing because people like to interpret the different things Anet says in convoluted ways, then use that against them to pretend they were cheated, lied to, etc… in order to make some wild claims for restitution or compensation. It’s rather ridiculous.

No one needs to even consider what was said by Anet; it’s a simple matter of looking at the reality of the game we play and see how that compares to the ideals that Anet desires for the game. I personally don’t see a disconnect between those two things; game is very casaul-focused and still provides genuine rewards for people who want to ‘push it’. The heart of the thread is really about who should get legendary armor; the answer is simple: The people that can complete the content to get it. Mature, responsible gamers already know that.

Absurdo.8309:

As for time required, it takes a lot of hours to get a legendary. If you can put in that time, you have time enough to raid.

Vayne has already explained to you why it isn’t true. There’s a difference between being able to dedicate a lot of time to a goal, and being able to organize your activity around a set schedule. I am able to play for a lot of time, for example, but i can never guarantee that i’ll be able to have an uninterrupted, continuous time to play at a specific day and hour. The same with all my friends.
And no, i’m not willing to base my friendship around an acquisition of pixel gear either. That would be debasing the concept.

Absurdo.8309:

As for stats, they have the same stats as ascended. Which you can get in any game mode. Personally, I don’t find the stat swapping all that useful.

As of this moment, the most sore point is something different. It’s the currently supported by devs idea that one form of having fun in this game is clearly superior to all others. And, incidentally, it’s the very idea that made many players leave other games and come to GW2 once (because that was not true here at that time).

Ashen.2907:

How does having the vast majority of the game aligned with your preferred style of play make you feel like a second class citizen compared to players for whom only a tiny percentage of the game is aligned with their preferred style of play?

It’s when that tiny percentage is called a superior way to play, and the only one deserving the best rewards. Which is currently the case with Raids.

Suddenly one day i have been told that the way i play the game, and the activities that were fun for me, things that i have been doing since the start, are no longer the things to do. I should strive to be “better”, and do those other, new activities. Incidentally, those new activities are no fun. In fact, they’re exactly the kind of unfun i tried to avoid by coming here. But if i try to complain, i’m being told that either i’ll change my point of view, or i’ll get no cake. Because, apparently, i don’t deserve one, because i’m having fun the wrong way.

Sorry if don’t find that appealing.

Astralporing.1957:

If you think that legendary armor is any more prestigious you’re naive. It’s not the lack of skill that prevents majority of players of getting it, but rather the time and organizational commitment required.

Except the guy I quoted stated he did spend alot of time and effort in raiding but failed to succeed, mind you he does own legendaries. Thus it is logical to deduce raiding takes more skill than dungeons / world completion/buying from the tp. I am not naive, you are in denial.

Legendary weapons require massive commitments, if ya think legendary armor will require any less effort, or if ya think people with legendaries casually play the game and cannot get into raiding cause of time commitments you are in fact naive.

Clearing vg and gorseval takes me 20-30 minutes once a week. Fractals pre HoT took me 45 minutes. Casuals are not excluded from raiding, nor is raiding making the game move away from casuals. Raiding is providing groups with more fun and intense challenges, which appeals especially to more invested groups, as a result the other content can be less challenging.

O and thats the real problem, the new zones are not casual friendly and we didnt get new dungeons/fractals/LS3. Everything but raiding is a problem for casuals.

Astralporing.1957:

It’s when that tiny percentage is called a superior way to play, and the only one deserving the best rewards. Which is currently the case with Raids.

Anyone can have an opinion about what is the superior way to play. They are all right and all wrong. The definitively superior way to play is any way that you find fun. If someone feels differently than you about what is fun, they are right…for themselves.

Raids do not have the best rewards.

Astralporing.1957:

Suddenly one day i have been told that the way i play the game, and the activities that were fun for me, things that i have been doing since the start, are no longer the things to do. I should strive to be “better”, and do those other, new activities. Incidentally, those new activities are no fun. In fact, they’re exactly the kind of unfun i tried to avoid by coming here. But if i try to complain, i’m being told that either i’ll change my point of view, or i’ll get no cake. Because, apparently, i don’t deserve one, because i’m having fun the wrong way.

Sorry if don’t find that appealing.

It is not, "suddenly. There have always been people who did not agree with you about how you find fun. Nothing new there.