Guild Wars 2

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

for the first time, I feel like a second class citizen in this game.

Honest question here…

How does having the vast majority of the game aligned with your preferred style of play make you feel like a second class citizen compared to players for whom only a tiny percentage of the game is aligned with their preferred style of play?

Is not getting everything your way, some times (rarely) having others get something they want, what defines being a second class citizen now? If my mother, when I was a child, had given my sister a tiny slice of cake and the rest of the cake (nearly the whole thing) to me, would I have been treated as a second class citizen because I didn’t get the whole cake?

No, but your example does not really fit because:
a) The cake we are talking about is 3 years old in most slices, the newest piece of cake is around 1 month old and the second youngest piece around 5 months. Would you like to eat a 3 year old cake because your mother refuses to bake new slices of cake? And if she does bake new slices with a flavor you dislike, would you be happy?
b) Let´s say your sister was hockey champion and you refused to play hockey because you found it boring, hard to get to games and time consuming. Then you come home, sit at the table and wait for a new slice of cake you like, but your mother says:
“Uhm, no. you refuse to play hockey, so no cake for you.”
And bam, you´re the newest member of the secondary children club.
c) Your mother changed. When you first lived with your mother, she was a carefree, open herated person that treated all her children the same. Then things began to change, and she stuffed more and more her belongings in her skirt and began to force you into stuff you hate, like playing the violin or joining a sports club because it is a common practice.
What most parents like this don´t realize is that most of this forced content leads to absolutely nothing. A large majority of children simply refuse to play the violin when they feel old enough to stand up to their parents. Most of them were greatly annoyed to have to play something they don´t like and never paid attention to anything the teacher/coach was saying. So what is left is some most basic knowledge about playing the violin you could have also taught children with funny Orff musical instruments. so you largely earned tears and rage because you as the parent were too stubborn and listened to the common take that playing music is good for your brain and free play is wrong which has been largely proven wrong in the later case.

Torolan.5816:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

for the first time, I feel like a second class citizen in this game.

Honest question here…

How does having the vast majority of the game aligned with your preferred style of play make you feel like a second class citizen compared to players for whom only a tiny percentage of the game is aligned with their preferred style of play?

Is not getting everything your way, some times (rarely) having others get something they want, what defines being a second class citizen now? If my mother, when I was a child, had given my sister a tiny slice of cake and the rest of the cake (nearly the whole thing) to me, would I have been treated as a second class citizen because I didn’t get the whole cake?

No, but your example does not really fit because:
a) The cake we are talking about is 3 years old in most slices, the newest piece of cake is around 1 month old and the second youngest piece around 5 months. Would you like to eat a 3 year old cake because your mother refuses to bake new slices of cake? And if she does bake new slices with a flavor you dislike, would you be happy?
b) Let´s say your sister was hockey champion and you refused to play hockey because you found it boring, hard to get to games and time consuming. Then you come home, sit at the table and wait for a new slice of cake you like, but your mother says:
“Uhm, no. you refuse to play hockey, so no cake for you.”
And bam, you´re the newest member of the secondary children club.
c) Your mother changed. When you first lived with your mother, she was a carefree, open herated person that treated all her children the same. Then things began to change, and she stuffed more and more her belongings in her skirt and began to force you into stuff you hate, like playing the violin or joining a sports club because it is a common practice.
What most parents like this don´t realize is that most of this forced content leads to absolutely nothing. A large majority of children simply refuse to play the violin when they feel old enough to stand up to their parents. Most of them were greatly annoyed to have to play something they don´t like and never paid attention to anything the teacher/coach was saying. So what is left is some most basic knowledge about playing the violin you could have also taught children with funny Orff musical instruments. so you largely earned tears and rage because you as the parent were too stubborn and listened to the common take that playing music is good for your brain and free play is wrong which has been largely proven wrong in the later case.

a) Yep, some people have been waiting for three years for their turn at dev resources. Thank you for reinforcing my point.

b) Well, as I have been getting all of the cake for years and so when my mother baked one cupcake for my sister to celebrate her hockey championship (funny story, my sister is really quite good at hockey while I have never played) it is probably not such a big deal that she gets one small morsel compared to the vast quantities of pastry that I have been consuming (and which is still present for me to eat).

c) Nothing forced. Mom is trying to make sure that she provides some of each of her children’s favorites for them to enjoy. My siblings and I don’t all enjoy the same thing but mom makes enough of each dish so that we can all try it if we like. Still there is a limit to how much mom can make at once so my siblings and I take turns getting our favorite.

Ashen.2907:

Torolan.5816:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

for the first time, I feel like a second class citizen in this game.

Honest question here…

How does having the vast majority of the game aligned with your preferred style of play make you feel like a second class citizen compared to players for whom only a tiny percentage of the game is aligned with their preferred style of play?

Is not getting everything your way, some times (rarely) having others get something they want, what defines being a second class citizen now? If my mother, when I was a child, had given my sister a tiny slice of cake and the rest of the cake (nearly the whole thing) to me, would I have been treated as a second class citizen because I didn’t get the whole cake?

No, but your example does not really fit because:
a) The cake we are talking about is 3 years old in most slices, the newest piece of cake is around 1 month old and the second youngest piece around 5 months. Would you like to eat a 3 year old cake because your mother refuses to bake new slices of cake? And if she does bake new slices with a flavor you dislike, would you be happy?
b) Let´s say your sister was hockey champion and you refused to play hockey because you found it boring, hard to get to games and time consuming. Then you come home, sit at the table and wait for a new slice of cake you like, but your mother says:
“Uhm, no. you refuse to play hockey, so no cake for you.”
And bam, you´re the newest member of the secondary children club.
c) Your mother changed. When you first lived with your mother, she was a carefree, open herated person that treated all her children the same. Then things began to change, and she stuffed more and more her belongings in her skirt and began to force you into stuff you hate, like playing the violin or joining a sports club because it is a common practice.
What most parents like this don´t realize is that most of this forced content leads to absolutely nothing. A large majority of children simply refuse to play the violin when they feel old enough to stand up to their parents. Most of them were greatly annoyed to have to play something they don´t like and never paid attention to anything the teacher/coach was saying. So what is left is some most basic knowledge about playing the violin you could have also taught children with funny Orff musical instruments. so you largely earned tears and rage because you as the parent were too stubborn and listened to the common take that playing music is good for your brain and free play is wrong which has been largely proven wrong in the later case.

a) Yep, some people have been waiting for three years for their turn at dev resources. Thank you for reinforcing my point.

b) Well, as I have been getting all of the cake for years and so when my mother baked one cupcake for my sister to celebrate her hockey championship (funny story, my sister is really quite good at hockey while I have never played) it is probably not such a big deal that she gets one small morsel compared to the vast quantities of pastry that I have been consuming (and which is still present for me to eat).

c) Nothing forced. Mom is trying to make sure that she provides some of each of her children’s favorites for them to enjoy. My siblings and I don’t all enjoy the same thing but mom makes enough of each dish so that we can all try it if we like. Still there is a limit to how much mom can make at once so my siblings and I take turns getting our favorite.

Anyone who tells me that he silently suffered 3 years in GW2 in the hope of getting something he likes is just making a fool out of him/herself. Besides, there was already content for people who liked it harder, they just plain refused to play it because it weren´t raids or it did not suit their beloved berserk meta like Southsun were you are actively punished for dishing out large damage while having no HP.

So your sister got no cake while you got all the cake? Ok.

So mother is not hiding good stuff behind her skirt now because she wants you to take part in an activity you dislike? To stay in our example:
I refuse to play my violin, so I don´t get dessert. I offer to do something else instead that is also good for hand/eye coordination and synaptic activity, but mother refuses with the argument that she does not want drums in the house or finds wrestling unsuitable for her new livestyle.

Ashen.2907:

Torolan.5816:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

for the first time, I feel like a second class citizen in this game.

Honest question here…

How does having the vast majority of the game aligned with your preferred style of play make you feel like a second class citizen compared to players for whom only a tiny percentage of the game is aligned with their preferred style of play?

Is not getting everything your way, some times (rarely) having others get something they want, what defines being a second class citizen now? If my mother, when I was a child, had given my sister a tiny slice of cake and the rest of the cake (nearly the whole thing) to me, would I have been treated as a second class citizen because I didn’t get the whole cake?

No, but your example does not really fit because:
a) The cake we are talking about is 3 years old in most slices, the newest piece of cake is around 1 month old and the second youngest piece around 5 months. Would you like to eat a 3 year old cake because your mother refuses to bake new slices of cake? And if she does bake new slices with a flavor you dislike, would you be happy?
b) Let´s say your sister was hockey champion and you refused to play hockey because you found it boring, hard to get to games and time consuming. Then you come home, sit at the table and wait for a new slice of cake you like, but your mother says:
“Uhm, no. you refuse to play hockey, so no cake for you.”
And bam, you´re the newest member of the secondary children club.
c) Your mother changed. When you first lived with your mother, she was a carefree, open herated person that treated all her children the same. Then things began to change, and she stuffed more and more her belongings in her skirt and began to force you into stuff you hate, like playing the violin or joining a sports club because it is a common practice.
What most parents like this don´t realize is that most of this forced content leads to absolutely nothing. A large majority of children simply refuse to play the violin when they feel old enough to stand up to their parents. Most of them were greatly annoyed to have to play something they don´t like and never paid attention to anything the teacher/coach was saying. So what is left is some most basic knowledge about playing the violin you could have also taught children with funny Orff musical instruments. so you largely earned tears and rage because you as the parent were too stubborn and listened to the common take that playing music is good for your brain and free play is wrong which has been largely proven wrong in the later case.

a) Yep, some people have been waiting for three years for their turn at dev resources. Thank you for reinforcing my point.

b) Well, as I have been getting all of the cake for years and so when my mother baked one cupcake for my sister to celebrate her hockey championship (funny story, my sister is really quite good at hockey while I have never played) it is probably not such a big deal that she gets one small morsel compared to the vast quantities of pastry that I have been consuming (and which is still present for me to eat).

c) Nothing forced. Mom is trying to make sure that she provides some of each of her children’s favorites for them to enjoy. My siblings and I don’t all enjoy the same thing but mom makes enough of each dish so that we can all try it if we like. Still there is a limit to how much mom can make at once so my siblings and I take turns getting our favorite.

This issue here is myriad again. First of all, I said I FEEL like a second class citizen. That doesn’t mean anything at all except it’s how I feel. Feelings aren’t based on logic for most people. They’re based on expectations and change.

We were given certain expectations by Anet. They said, we’re going to do this content and it’s going to come out every two weeks. I loved that. I understand that it’s not sustainable. Doesn’t mean I didn’t love it. And that content, was content for me. So yes, I got spoiled.

When Living Story Season 2 came out I liked it less than Living Story Season 1. I didn’t enjoy it as much. It also came out less frequently. But most patches, when they came out, where things I were interested in.

Now, I didn’t build those expectations in a vacuum. Anet and Guild Wars 2 set the bar high. They couldn’t keep going and then they switched over to an expansion model.

While I was excited for the expansion, I was having a good time playing, preparing for the expansion. Getting stuff done.

But then a series of things happened in a row, all of which led to me being less satisfied. And this isn’t a mental process, its’ an emotional one. Most people can’t quantify why they dont’ enjoy something. I usually can but the reasons are usually complex. For example, if I were still getting 10 achievement points a day for doing my daily, I’d have a couple of months of dailies until I got my first pinnacle weapon. That’s going to be a very long term goal for me now, which I find frustrating. As already mentioned I’m not particularly interested in the content being released.

The combination of having only long term goals left, no real short term goals since I’ve done all those ages ago, combined with seeing other stuff come out for other people is going to cause an emotional reaction, probably in most people.

Of course our emotions aren’t reasonable. That’s because they’re emotions. I can mentally tell myself that sometime this summer, most likely, I’ll have more to do that I want to do specifically. But summer (my winter actually) seems a long ways off right now.

Sure I’ll come back and play the game when the April patch hits, see what the changes look like. I’m sure that’ll keep me entertained for a couple of weeks.

But I’m winding down because when everything is a long term goal, my interest in playing is lessened.

Put it another way, many people play MMOs for that sense of progression. For me, story progression and achievement point progression were the two types of progression I played for. The progression on offer right now is SPVP progression and raid progression. I’m not really interested in either.

I COULD be interested in getting legendary armor, but that’s sort of off limits to me, unless I raid. The PvP back pack is obviously going to be off limits to me.

Given how much money I’ve spent on the game (hint, a lot lol), and given that I’ve played this game for three years pretty much non-stop, this is a big change to me for my play style.

Saying someone shouldn’t FEEL like a second class citizen for reasons of logic is fine. I agree, it’s probably not reasonable to feel like a second class citizen.

But saying that isn’t going to change how I feel. I had a game that catered to me and my play style and now that emphasis has shifted. Sure it’s not fair to people who wanted to do this other stuff.

On the other hand, my expectations were built upon what Anet has trained me to expect. So there’s that too.

@Vayne

I’m going to keep this short. From what you just said it sounds like you are getting burnt out on this game.

It sounds like you blame the game for providing rewards exclusively through certain avenues of content. If you’ve played this game to the point that you have no more “short term goals,” then why not perfect your gameplay? From a MMO perspective, if you are picky about the content you choose to play, the rewards you get to choose from become limited. My 2 cents.

I love Tyria, I have since 2005, but if you’re to the point where you aren’t having fun, then step back and breathe a bit. Making all content accessible to everyone would greatly reduce the enjoyment this game brings IMHO. Challenge = replay-ability. It would make certain aspects of this game empty if all content was easily finished through multiple avenues in a limited amount of time. What’s the point of doing anything in this game? The reward. This is generally how MMO’s go.

Ok I Did It.2854:

There seems to be 2 groups of people now forming in this community, the “I love raids and everyone else can suck it” and the “I hate raids I want them gone”

I haven’t raided since my WoW days but I don’t mind them in the game if they don’t starve everything else for dev attention.

The reason I do not do raids anymore is that I don’t like waiting around for a raid to start and reconstitute after a wipe. I find it boring. Sadly for me, HoT introduced a large amount of very similar “wait” in the HoT zones. But they coupled it with instance headaches: it’s hard to even know if you are in a viable zone without wasting a lot of time on top of the timers.

Avarice.2791:

@Vayne

I’m going to keep this short. From what you just said it sounds like you are getting burnt out on this game.

It sounds like you blame the game for providing rewards exclusively through certain avenues of content. If you’ve played this game to the point that you have no more “short term goals,” then why not perfect your gameplay? From a MMO perspective, if you are picky about the content you choose to play, the rewards you get to choose from become limited. My 2 cents.

I love Tyria, I have since 2005, but if you’re to the point where you aren’t having fun, then step back and breathe a bit. Making all content accessible to everyone would greatly reduce the enjoyment this game brings IMHO. Challenge = replay-ability. It would make certain aspects of this game empty if all content was easily finished through multiple avenues in a limited amount of time. What’s the point of doing anything in this game? The reward. This is generally how MMO’s go.

I’m not picky about the content I play. Pretty much everything that came out in the first three years was my type of content. I do the holiday stuff. I do jumping puzzles. I run dungeons and fractals. I even WvW and PvP some.

But most of the content for years has been geared toward me and now that’s not the case. That’s not burn out. That’s a shift in direction.

Posted it in the raid section of these forums, reposting it here.
I do believe raid exclusive rewards are a bad thing for guild wars 2.
This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.
Then, we started getting people with an awful lot of free time at their disposal, claiming encounters were too easy, since they would spend hours upon hours repeating the same encounters. Well guess what Einstein, if a baby can learn how to speak in a couple of months, If even animals learn how to act, and behave simply due to repetitive patterns, then of course someone will find any kind of challenge in an online game trivial if they practice it that much.
Now, the same vocal minority has been more and more loud requesting harder content for their own amusement, fair enough, the developers agreed and granted them that request. Problem was, they then wanted exclusive skins and rewards, in a game whose entire point is dressing up your character and customizing it, simply because, they thought their way of having fun was more important than that of others.
I do not mind raids as they are for people who want harder content, what I do mind however is when they try to make everyone else like them, spend hours upon hours, changing their real life schedule to meet the requirements in a game, just because they wanted to change a casual game into yet another full time occupation.

My suggestion would be to make 2 game modes for raids, keeping the same rewards for both, but, having the “hard mode” ( the one we have now) give much more gold, unlike the easy one which would yield no gold.
Hardcores would still earn 15-30-50 whatever amount of gold per successful completion, which given their speedrun nature would be pretty fast and very worth their time, while the casual folks would still be able to experience easier versions, without missing on any exclusive skins, but without making any gold in the process either.
People are complaining because, the core audience of this game, has always been casual players, they complain because they still care…. however nothing lasts forever and once they are done caring, they will move on, leaving behind the hardcore players, a lot of toxic players and some “free to play” newcomers who’d fill in the gap. Then , those would simply leave too, since they’d be greeted by the toxic hardcore players, who, in turn would keep saying content is not hard enough, and keep requesting more and more “challenge” at an unsustainable rate for the company, leaving the same hardcore ones, dissatisfied as well.
Don’t forget, the first raid wing took a while to be beaten, while this one (2nd) was cleared in the first 2 days…

And before anyone else out there starts accusing me of laziness as it’s custom on these forums ( despite this being a game, which everyone should be able to enjoy how they like), I do have the eternal title, and cleared the first wing.
I did not enjoy those timed schedules, and I do not believe they fit this game at all, hence my feedback on this thread.
Have a nice day and thanks for reading.

nanael the angel.2659:

This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.

From a 2011 interview with Colin.

“The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.”

That’s how the game started. The thing is, dungeons never made it as raid substitutes.

I think that raid exclusive items are fine, especially if they’re skins. The problem, I think is legendary items. They were marketed as the only real endgame, long-term goal. Their original implementation required doing some dungeons – -which ANet thought of as taking the place of raids. However, those dungeons were reasonably accessible and the Legendary weapons could be bought, anyway. This created the expectation that Legendary items are grindy, but doable as “play how you want” goals.

Had dungeons turned out the way ANet envisioned them, and had they used Account Bound on L. items at the start, we’d have been having this conversation about accessibility 3+ years ago.

So, no. There was never a promise that you could play a bit (and do whatever you want) and never miss out on anything.

Vayne.8563:

The point is, there are people who raided in other games who came here specifically because the game didn’t have raids and they could get the best stuff without raiding. Now that’s gone.

Um, what do you mean by “the best stuff without _”? It’s a skin, not a stat bonus. Plus the game already required dungeons to get dungeon armor & weapons, fractals to get fractal weapons, silverwastes to get lumi armor, and (for a brief period) WvW to get Legendary Weapons.

When the game first launched and for well over a year after, there were lots of people who said they could never get dungeon skins; it was just too hard. The same for fractals: I know even more people who thought those were inaccessible, too. And of course, there are all sorts of PvP skins (and achievements) gated behind competitive gaming.

So now, people are saying Raids are too exclusive — I have trouble believing that. I think people are claiming foul before ball has landed.

I think it’s reasonable that some people think that a game purportedly designed for casual players should not have any features gated behind skill. I think it’s reasonable that some people think that features should not be gated behind larger groups.

However, I also think it’s completely reasonable for ANet to disagree with both ideals, especially since they are in the business of making games profitable enough to keep making games, which means appealing to different types of players.

On a related note, I think there are lots of ways that ANet could try to bridge the differences across the community’s expectations — making Raids easier is one and/or making it easier to obtain mag-shards, but I think those are the most short-sighted.

One of the core sensibilities seems to be that there’s some amazing advantage in having stat-adjustable armor (although frankly I rarely make use of it for legendaries).

So, ANet could introduce a wardrobe-like system that offers something like Trans-statial charges, comparable to transmutation charges — perhaps bought or perhaps crafted — allowing you to change stats (& runes|sigils) on the fly. Legendary owners get the costs waived, so there would still be an advantage and it would probably have to be fairly expensive (for various economic reasons).

Then the only things Raids would gate is a skin. And the game already has plenty of gated skins, so I am hoping this wouldn’t be as much of an issue.

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.

From a 2011 interview with Colin.

“The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.”

That’s how the game started. The thing is, dungeons never made it as raid substitutes.

I think that raid exclusive items are fine, especially if they’re skins. The problem, I think is legendary items. They were marketed as the only real endgame, long-term goal. Their original implementation required doing some dungeons – -which ANet thought of as taking the place of raids. However, those dungeons were reasonably accessible and the Legendary weapons could be bought, anyway. This created the expectation that Legendary items are grindy, but doable as “play how you want” goals.

Had dungeons turned out the way ANet envisioned them, and had they used Account Bound on L. items at the start, we’d have been having this conversation about accessibility 3+ years ago.

So, no. There was never a promise that you could play a bit (and do whatever you want) and never miss out on anything.

I don’t see anywhere from your post, Colin claiming they were intended just for the hardcore crowd.
All I see is, they were planning to add armor skins as dungeon path rewards , which they did.
Saying stuff was too easy and did not turn out as planned still remains your own words, and is no where to be found in the post you quoted so far.

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.

From a 2011 interview with Colin.

“The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.”

That’s how the game started. The thing is, dungeons never made it as raid substitutes.

I think that raid exclusive items are fine, especially if they’re skins. The problem, I think is legendary items. They were marketed as the only real endgame, long-term goal. Their original implementation required doing some dungeons – -which ANet thought of as taking the place of raids. However, those dungeons were reasonably accessible and the Legendary weapons could be bought, anyway. This created the expectation that Legendary items are grindy, but doable as “play how you want” goals.

Had dungeons turned out the way ANet envisioned them, and had they used Account Bound on L. items at the start, we’d have been having this conversation about accessibility 3+ years ago.

So, no. There was never a promise that you could play a bit (and do whatever you want) and never miss out on anything.

I don’t see anywhere from your post, Colin claiming they were intended just for the hardcore crowd.
All I see is, they were planning to add armor skins as dungeon path rewards , which they did.
Saying stuff was too easy and did not turn out as planned still remains your own words, and is no where to be found in the post you quoted so far.

You must have missed, “And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.” Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” That he thought of dungeons as raid equivalents should tell you something. That they turned out easier, especially after more than 3 years, well, that’s a player thing.

But, if you’re going to play it that way, you should provide a citation where ANet said players could get any reward they wanted easily and doing whatever content they preferred. Don’t take my word that you won’t find one.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Vayne.8563:

The point is, there are people who raided in other games who came here specifically because the game didn’t have raids and they could get the best stuff without raiding. Now that’s gone.

Um, what do you mean by “the best stuff without _”? It’s a skin, not a stat bonus. Plus the game already required dungeons to get dungeon armor & weapons, fractals to get fractal weapons, silverwastes to get lumi armor, and (for a brief period) WvW to get Legendary Weapons.

When the game first launched and for well over a year after, there were lots of people who said they could never get dungeon skins; it was just too hard. The same for fractals: I know even more people who thought those were inaccessible, too. And of course, there are all sorts of PvP skins (and achievements) gated behind competitive gaming.

So now, people are saying Raids are too exclusive — I have trouble believing that. I think people are claiming foul before ball has landed.

I think it’s reasonable that some people think that a game purportedly designed for casual players should not have any features gated behind skill. I think it’s reasonable that some people think that features should not be gated behind larger groups.

However, I also think it’s completely reasonable for ANet to disagree with both ideals, especially since they are in the business of making games profitable enough to keep making games, which means appealing to different types of players.

---

On a related note, I think there are lots of ways that ANet could try to bridge the differences across the community’s expectations — making Raids easier is one and/or making it easier to obtain mag-shards, but I think those are the most short-sighted.

One of the core sensibilities seems to be that there’s some amazing advantage in having stat-adjustable armor (although frankly I rarely make use of it for legendaries).

So, ANet could introduce a wardrobe-like system that offers something like Trans-statial charges, comparable to transmutation charges — perhaps bought or perhaps crafted — allowing you to change stats (& runes|sigils) on the fly. Legendary owners get the costs waived, so there would still be an advantage and it would probably have to be fairly expensive (for various economic reasons).

Then the only things Raids would gate is a skin. And the game already has plenty of gated skins, so I am hoping this wouldn’t be as much of an issue.

I never had problems with skins. But legendary isn’t just about skins. It’s a tier of gear.

Right now, I have enough skins to choke an ox. Could I work for more skins? Sure. I would I realistically at this point be likely to use more skins….not so much.

But armor that I could reskin taht I could change stats on, that IS something I could work towards. It’s a meaningful goal to me.

My goal used to be achievement points, until I hit my cap and they became too grindy even for me. Now there’s no real reason to push myself to get those achievement points, or in some cases even log in.

Combine that with my finishing getting every dungeon and armor skin…even the PvP reward tracks that are left don’t really interest me that much. Yeah, I could get all the glorious armor, I suppose. I’m just not interested enough in PvP to do that.

So I find myself at a crossroads. If this game is about progression, but there’s no meaningful progression left to me, then I’m not going to play as much.

On the other hand, new story is coming out and that IS meaningful progression to me. This is just growing pains while Anet gets moving on the stuff that I like.

I’m 100% sure something will come out sooner rather than later, another 3-4 months maybe that will get me back into the game hardcore.

But right now, what I have left that I enjoy is helping new players and building the guild…which is what I guess I should be focusing on.

I wouldn’t mind/actually prefer if Legendary Armor would be attainable in other ways other than raids, however, the skill-gate that it is behind that should still remain.

Maybe attaining top 100 for a PvP season or something.

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.

From a 2011 interview with Colin.

“The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.”

That’s how the game started. The thing is, dungeons never made it as raid substitutes.

I think that raid exclusive items are fine, especially if they’re skins. The problem, I think is legendary items. They were marketed as the only real endgame, long-term goal. Their original implementation required doing some dungeons – -which ANet thought of as taking the place of raids. However, those dungeons were reasonably accessible and the Legendary weapons could be bought, anyway. This created the expectation that Legendary items are grindy, but doable as “play how you want” goals.

Had dungeons turned out the way ANet envisioned them, and had they used Account Bound on L. items at the start, we’d have been having this conversation about accessibility 3+ years ago.

So, no. There was never a promise that you could play a bit (and do whatever you want) and never miss out on anything.

I don’t see anywhere from your post, Colin claiming they were intended just for the hardcore crowd.
All I see is, they were planning to add armor skins as dungeon path rewards , which they did.
Saying stuff was too easy and did not turn out as planned still remains your own words, and is no where to be found in the post you quoted so far.

You must have missed, “And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.” Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” That he thought of dungeons as raid equivalents should tell you something. That they turned out easier, especially after more than 3 years, well, that’s a player thing.

But, if you’re going to play it that way, you should provide a citation where ANet said players could get any reward they wanted easily and doing whatever content they preferred. Don’t take my word that you won’t find one.

Unless I am blind the " Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” Is no where to be seen in your first quote, since it stops at “…dungeons – the raids.”
And again, they did deliver, dungeon rewards work that way.
You can argue as much as you want about the nature of skill involved, but it does not change the fact that dungeons and their rewards were implemented as we know them.

Now, let me show you something as well https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/colin-johanson-on-guild-wars-2-in-the-months-ahead/

“To make playing in our open world worthwhile, we’ll make it rewarding enough for players to spend their time there across all levels. It’s extremely important that we stay true to our philosophy that you should be able to play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play the game in order to reach the most powerful rewards.”

They aimed this to be a casual game, and that’s the reason so many people consider it one. You can argue it’s in open world, but according to this, the most powerful rewards, legendary ones I’d guess, were aimed to be accessed by anyone.

Either way, my suggestion regarding raids, was to implement two levels of difficulty, with one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards, which, again, is not any different from the way they’ve handled rewards thus far.

PS. It’s abit unfortunate we have to result to quotes just to keep backing up claims in a GAMING forum, but so be it. (Sure hope we won’t have to follow the format of “Abstract” ,“Introduction”, “Materials and Methods” , “Results”, “Discussion” and “Bibliography” in the near future …or it would make my posts even longer )

This is my last reply to you, take no offense over it, I just find that it took way more time than it should have, when the purpose was just to express an opinion, a thought.
Have a nice day.

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.

From a 2011 interview with Colin.

“The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.”

That’s how the game started. The thing is, dungeons never made it as raid substitutes.

I think that raid exclusive items are fine, especially if they’re skins. The problem, I think is legendary items. They were marketed as the only real endgame, long-term goal. Their original implementation required doing some dungeons – -which ANet thought of as taking the place of raids. However, those dungeons were reasonably accessible and the Legendary weapons could be bought, anyway. This created the expectation that Legendary items are grindy, but doable as “play how you want” goals.

Had dungeons turned out the way ANet envisioned them, and had they used Account Bound on L. items at the start, we’d have been having this conversation about accessibility 3+ years ago.

So, no. There was never a promise that you could play a bit (and do whatever you want) and never miss out on anything.

I don’t see anywhere from your post, Colin claiming they were intended just for the hardcore crowd.
All I see is, they were planning to add armor skins as dungeon path rewards , which they did.
Saying stuff was too easy and did not turn out as planned still remains your own words, and is no where to be found in the post you quoted so far.

You must have missed, “And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.” Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” That he thought of dungeons as raid equivalents should tell you something. That they turned out easier, especially after more than 3 years, well, that’s a player thing.

But, if you’re going to play it that way, you should provide a citation where ANet said players could get any reward they wanted easily and doing whatever content they preferred. Don’t take my word that you won’t find one.

Unless I am blind the " Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” Is no where to be seen in your first quote, since it stops at “…dungeons – the raids.”
And again, they did deliver, dungeon rewards work that way.
You can argue as much as you want about the nature of skill involved, but it does not change the fact that dungeons and their rewards were implemented as we know them.

Now, let me show you something as well https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/colin-johanson-on-guild-wars-2-in-the-months-ahead/

“To make playing in our open world worthwhile, we’ll make it rewarding enough for players to spend their time there across all levels. It’s extremely important that we stay true to our philosophy that you should be able to play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play the game in order to reach the most powerful rewards.”

They aimed this to be a casual game, and that’s the reason so many people consider it one. You can argue it’s in open world, but according to this, the most powerful rewards, legendary ones I’d guess, were aimed to be accessed by anyone.

Either way, my suggestion regarding raids, was to implement two levels of difficulty, with one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards, which, again, is not any different from the way they’ve handled rewards thus far.

PS. It’s abit unfortunate we have to result to quotes just to keep backing up claims in a GAMING forum, but so be it. (Sure hope we won’t have to follow the format of “Abstract” ,“Introduction”, “Materials and Methods” , “Results”, “Discussion” and “Bibliography” in the near future …or it would make my posts even longer )

This is my last reply to you, take no offense over it, I just find that it took way more time than it should have, when the purpose was just to express an opinion, a thought.
Have a nice day.

“The most powerful,” gear in GW2 is the ascended tier. It is attained through crafting, or playing pretty much any content in the game (admittedly with a low drop rate). Some of it can be, “earned,” by just logging in. The only way in which raids interact with, “the most powerful rewards,” comment is that they are one, of many, avenues for attaining it.

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.

From a 2011 interview with Colin.

“The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.”

That’s how the game started. The thing is, dungeons never made it as raid substitutes.

I think that raid exclusive items are fine, especially if they’re skins. The problem, I think is legendary items. They were marketed as the only real endgame, long-term goal. Their original implementation required doing some dungeons – -which ANet thought of as taking the place of raids. However, those dungeons were reasonably accessible and the Legendary weapons could be bought, anyway. This created the expectation that Legendary items are grindy, but doable as “play how you want” goals.

Had dungeons turned out the way ANet envisioned them, and had they used Account Bound on L. items at the start, we’d have been having this conversation about accessibility 3+ years ago.

So, no. There was never a promise that you could play a bit (and do whatever you want) and never miss out on anything.

I don’t see anywhere from your post, Colin claiming they were intended just for the hardcore crowd.
All I see is, they were planning to add armor skins as dungeon path rewards , which they did.
Saying stuff was too easy and did not turn out as planned still remains your own words, and is no where to be found in the post you quoted so far.

You must have missed, “And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.” Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” That he thought of dungeons as raid equivalents should tell you something. That they turned out easier, especially after more than 3 years, well, that’s a player thing.

Unless I am blind the " Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” Is no where to be seen in your first quote, since it stops at “…dungeons – the raids.”
And again, they did deliver, dungeon rewards work that way.
You can argue as much as you want about the nature of skill involved, but it does not change the fact that dungeons and their rewards were implemented as we know them.

Now, let me show you something as well https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/colin-johanson-on-guild-wars-2-in-the-months-ahead/

“To make playing in our open world worthwhile, we’ll make it rewarding enough for players to spend their time there across all levels. It’s extremely important that we stay true to our philosophy that you should be able to play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play the game in order to reach the most powerful rewards.”

They aimed this to be a casual game, and that’s the reason so many people consider it one. You can argue it’s in open world, but according to this, the most powerful rewards, legendary ones I’d guess, were aimed to be accessed by anyone.

Either way, my suggestion regarding raids, was to implement two levels of difficulty, with one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards, which, again, is not any different from the way they’ve handled rewards thus far.

“The most powerful,” gear in GW2 is the ascended tier. It is attained through crafting, or playing pretty much any content in the game (admittedly with a low drop rate). Some of it can be, “earned,” by just logging in. The only way in which raids interact with, “the most powerful rewards,” comment is that they are one, of many, avenues for attaining it.

That sadly is inaccurate.
Check the date of this post. Back then , we had exotic and after which legendary, there was no ascended. Ascended got added at a later date, and, before you claim they were referring to exotics (which had always been easily acquired, as intended) , legendaries, even the currently added ones require open world, first generation ones did, those new ones do.
Anyhow, the statement is clear, "the MOST’ , not ONE of the most. By this alone, they are referring to their top tier gear, which has always been, legendary, hence their classification.
(EDIT:Also legendaries deal more damage than ascended when the character is downscaled-check reddit)

nanael the angel.2659:

Unless I am blind the " Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” Is no where to be seen in your first quote, since it stops at “…dungeons – the raids.”

Had you been reading ANet propaganda pre-launch, you would have seen that comment frequently.

You can argue as much as you want about the nature of skill involved, but it does not change the fact that dungeons and their rewards were implemented as we know them.

Right, they were intended to be exclusive to hard content, and while the content was hard at first, it became easier through nerfs and player’s learning the content. Intent was different than results.

Now, let me show you something as well https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/colin-johanson-on-guild-wars-2-in-the-months-ahead/

“To make playing in our open world worthwhile, we’ll make it rewarding enough for players to spend their time there across all levels. It’s extremely important that we stay true to our philosophy that you should be able to play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play the game in order to reach the most powerful rewards.”

As Ashen says, when ANet cites power, they’re talking stats, not skins.

They aimed this to be a casual game, and that’s the reason so many people consider it one. You can argue it’s in open world, but according to this, the most powerful rewards, legendary ones I’d guess, were aimed to be accessed by anyone.

Legendary stats were always the equivalent of the top tier gear (Exotic originally, Ascended now), thus they are not more powerful than that top tier.

PS. It’s abit unfortunate we have to result to quotes just to keep backing up claims in a GAMING forum, but so be it.

Comments in italics. As to that last, you’re the one who claimed “This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.” Where exactly was that said? You’ve yet to provide anything other than your opinion that that advertisement was made.

nanael the angel.2659:

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.

From a 2011 interview with Colin.

“The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.”

That’s how the game started. The thing is, dungeons never made it as raid substitutes.

I think that raid exclusive items are fine, especially if they’re skins. The problem, I think is legendary items. They were marketed as the only real endgame, long-term goal. Their original implementation required doing some dungeons – -which ANet thought of as taking the place of raids. However, those dungeons were reasonably accessible and the Legendary weapons could be bought, anyway. This created the expectation that Legendary items are grindy, but doable as “play how you want” goals.

Had dungeons turned out the way ANet envisioned them, and had they used Account Bound on L. items at the start, we’d have been having this conversation about accessibility 3+ years ago.

So, no. There was never a promise that you could play a bit (and do whatever you want) and never miss out on anything.

I don’t see anywhere from your post, Colin claiming they were intended just for the hardcore crowd.
All I see is, they were planning to add armor skins as dungeon path rewards , which they did.
Saying stuff was too easy and did not turn out as planned still remains your own words, and is no where to be found in the post you quoted so far.

You must have missed, “And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.” Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” That he thought of dungeons as raid equivalents should tell you something. That they turned out easier, especially after more than 3 years, well, that’s a player thing.

But, if you’re going to play it that way, you should provide a citation where ANet said players could get any reward they wanted easily and doing whatever content they preferred. Don’t take my word that you won’t find one.

Unless I am blind the " Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” Is no where to be seen in your first quote, since it stops at “…dungeons – the raids.”
And again, they did deliver, dungeon rewards work that way.
You can argue as much as you want about the nature of skill involved, but it does not change the fact that dungeons and their rewards were implemented as we know them.

Now, let me show you something as well https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/colin-johanson-on-guild-wars-2-in-the-months-ahead/

“To make playing in our open world worthwhile, we’ll make it rewarding enough for players to spend their time there across all levels. It’s extremely important that we stay true to our philosophy that you should be able to play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play the game in order to reach the most powerful rewards.”

They aimed this to be a casual game, and that’s the reason so many people consider it one. You can argue it’s in open world, but according to this, the most powerful rewards, legendary ones I’d guess, were aimed to be accessed by anyone.

Either way, my suggestion regarding raids, was to implement two levels of difficulty, with one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards, which, again, is not any different from the way they’ve handled rewards thus far.

PS. It’s abit unfortunate we have to result to quotes just to keep backing up claims in a GAMING forum, but so be it. (Sure hope we won’t have to follow the format of “Abstract” ,“Introduction”, “Materials and Methods” , “Results”, “Discussion” and “Bibliography” in the near future …or it would make my posts even longer )

This is my last reply to you, take no offense over it, I just find that it took way more time than it should have, when the purpose was just to express an opinion, a thought.
Have a nice day.

“The most powerful,” gear in GW2 is the ascended tier. It is attained through crafting, or playing pretty much any content in the game (admittedly with a low drop rate). Some of it can be, “earned,” by just logging in. The only way in which raids interact with, “the most powerful rewards,” comment is that they are one, of many, avenues for attaining it.

That sadly is inaccurate.
Check the date of this post. Back then , we had exotic and after which legendary, there was no ascended. Ascended got added at a later date, and, before you claim they were referring to exotics (which had always been easily acquired, as intended) , legendaries, even the currently added ones require open world, first generation ones did, those new ones do.
Anyhow, the statement is clear, "the MOST’ , not ONE of the most. By this alone, they are referring to their top tier gear, which has always been, legendary, hence their classification.

Legendary is not more powerful than ascended. When ascended was added legendary was increased in power to match it. Legendary is a skin, with a QoL feature of questionable merit.

We can keep having this public circular debate , regarding how we each perceive quotes made by someone else, but I would nt say that’s in the greatest benefit of the forums. After all, none of us can claim anything is absolute and not our opinion, since we are not Colin.
I’ve stated my opinion, and presented a solution I believe might work both for casuals and hardcore.
Now you are free to do the same, explaining why you disagree with adding two levels of difficulty for a raid (with the hard one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards), and elaborate from there.
Based on constructive feedback, devs will be informed and act accordingly.
We can’t change what has been done, but we can affect and alter the changes that are yet to come to pass.
Keep it precise, keep it accurate, keep it civil and keep it clean.
Later o/

nanael the angel.2659:

We can keep having this public circular debate , regarding how we each perceive quotes made by someone else, but I would nt say that’s in the greatest benefit of the forums. After all, none of us can claim anything is absolute and not our opinion, since we are not Colin.
I’ve stated my opinion, and presented a solution I believe might work both for casuals and hardcore.
Now you are free to do the same, explaining why you disagree with adding two levels of difficulty for a raid (with the hard one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards), and elaborate from there.
Based on constructive feedback, devs will be informed and act accordingly.
We can’t change what has been done, but we can affect and alter the changes that are yet to come to pass.
Keep it precise, keep it accurate, keep it civil and keep it clean.
Later o/

Actually my claims are objective, not subjective. Legendary gear is not more powerful than ascended. They are objectively, measurably, numerically identical in power. I have kept it precise by avoiding misrepresenting facts in order to support an opinion.

One does not need to be Colin in order to accurately quote him any more than one needs to be Pythagoras to use his theorem.

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

We can keep having this public circular debate , regarding how we each perceive quotes made by someone else, but I would nt say that’s in the greatest benefit of the forums. After all, none of us can claim anything is absolute and not our opinion, since we are not Colin.
I’ve stated my opinion, and presented a solution I believe might work both for casuals and hardcore.
Now you are free to do the same, explaining why you disagree with adding two levels of difficulty for a raid (with the hard one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards), and elaborate from there.
Based on constructive feedback, devs will be informed and act accordingly.
We can’t change what has been done, but we can affect and alter the changes that are yet to come to pass.
Keep it precise, keep it accurate, keep it civil and keep it clean.
Later o/

Actually my claims are objective, not subjective. Legendary gear is not more powerful than ascended. They are objectively, measurably, numerically identical in power. I have kept it precise by avoiding misrepresenting facts in order to support an opinion.

One does not need to be Colin in order to accurately quote him any more than one needs to be Pythagoras to use his theorem.

Really? Then how do you know he is referring to Ascended gear (which did not even exist back then) and not legendary gear, or even both?
Since both are “numerically identical in power” how do you so easily distinguish which gear set he means, when and If, as you say, he is only referring to best stats?
Claiming it’s one, not the other or even both sure seems pretty subjective to me.
Anyway, have a nice day that is my ultimate reply to you as well.

Avarice.2791:

Manasa Devi.7958:

“If you hate MMO’s you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2”
- Mike O’Brien

An outdated quote. As a business evolves so does its ideology. To survive you must satisfy as wide of a range of players as you can. One way to do this is implementing raids. It doesn’t effect the casual community because they can… oh I don’t know… not raid… While the hardcore community is happy.

While what you say is true, nothing about HoT has been casual friendly. If you want to progress through a map in HoT, you could have to dedicate two hours of your play time to one map depending on where the maps in in its timer when you start to play. Even then you could end up on an empty map and not be able to do anything on the map, looking at you dragon stand, how is this casual friendly. I know ANet have said they are looking at sorting this out, so I’ll not waffle on about it. My problem with it all is that the raids have come at a cost to all other content. HoT launched in October, and we have had nothing in the way of new content, outside of raids in all that time. ANet currently seem to only care about a small amount of there players in both PvE and PvP. WvW players are the forgotten ones. They’ve constantly got the short end of the stick. The game is so far removed from what is advertised as its almost criminal.

nanael the angel.2659:

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

We can keep having this public circular debate , regarding how we each perceive quotes made by someone else, but I would nt say that’s in the greatest benefit of the forums. After all, none of us can claim anything is absolute and not our opinion, since we are not Colin.
I’ve stated my opinion, and presented a solution I believe might work both for casuals and hardcore.
Now you are free to do the same, explaining why you disagree with adding two levels of difficulty for a raid (with the hard one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards), and elaborate from there.
Based on constructive feedback, devs will be informed and act accordingly.
We can’t change what has been done, but we can affect and alter the changes that are yet to come to pass.
Keep it precise, keep it accurate, keep it civil and keep it clean.
Later o/

Actually my claims are objective, not subjective. Legendary gear is not more powerful than ascended. They are objectively, measurably, numerically identical in power. I have kept it precise by avoiding misrepresenting facts in order to support an opinion.

One does not need to be Colin in order to accurately quote him any more than one needs to be Pythagoras to use his theorem.

Really? Then how do you know he is referring to Ascended gear (which did not even exist back then) and not legendary gear, or even both?
Since both are “numerically identical in power” how do you so easily distinguish which gear set he means, when and If, as you say, he is only referring to best stats?
Claiming it’s one, not the other or even both sure seems pretty subjective to me.
Anyway, have a nice day that is my ultimate reply to you as well.

He said, “most powerful.” You dont need to distiguish between ascended and legendary in reference to most powerful because there is no difference in power between ascended an legendary. Zero. None. This is not opinion, this is mathematical, objective fact. If you choose to believe that he meant, “not the most powerful,” when he said, “the most powerful,” that is your prerogative.

1 = 1 is not, “pretty subjective.”

All of that said, you are entitled to your opinion. My niece is of the opinion that my father in law is a million years old. So 65 = 1,000,000.

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

We can keep having this public circular debate , regarding how we each perceive quotes made by someone else, but I would nt say that’s in the greatest benefit of the forums. After all, none of us can claim anything is absolute and not our opinion, since we are not Colin.
I’ve stated my opinion, and presented a solution I believe might work both for casuals and hardcore.
Now you are free to do the same, explaining why you disagree with adding two levels of difficulty for a raid (with the hard one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards), and elaborate from there.
Based on constructive feedback, devs will be informed and act accordingly.
We can’t change what has been done, but we can affect and alter the changes that are yet to come to pass.
Keep it precise, keep it accurate, keep it civil and keep it clean.
Later o/

Actually my claims are objective, not subjective. Legendary gear is not more powerful than ascended. They are objectively, measurably, numerically identical in power. I have kept it precise by avoiding misrepresenting facts in order to support an opinion.

One does not need to be Colin in order to accurately quote him any more than one needs to be Pythagoras to use his theorem.

Really? Then how do you know he is referring to Ascended gear (which did not even exist back then) and not legendary gear, or even both?
Since both are “numerically identical in power” how do you so easily distinguish which gear set he means, when and If, as you say, he is only referring to best stats?
Claiming it’s one, not the other or even both sure seems pretty subjective to me.
Anyway, have a nice day that is my ultimate reply to you as well.

He said, “most powerful.” You dont need to distiguish between ascended and legendary in reference to most powerful because there is no difference in power between ascended an legendary. Zero. None. This is not opinion, this is mathematical, objective fact. If you choose to believe that he meant, “not the most powerful,” when he said, “the most powerful,” that is your prerogative.

1 = 1 is not, “pretty subjective.”

All of that said, you are entitled to your opinion. My niece is of the opinion that my father in law is a million years old. So 65 = 1,000,000.

A and B are both black
We want something that fits the description “black”
You say it is A and just A , not B not a possibility of it being A or B , or even A and B.

Read my previous posts, I never said “not the most powerful”.
You say he refairs to top stats, and call it ascended, yet you claim both ascended and legendaries have the same stats,which are top, but keep saying it is ascended, and not legendaries or a possible combination.

You state part of the truth, that SUBJECTIVELY fits your opinion, carefully dismiss the other possibilities,which happen to be just as valid but sadly do not fit your opinion, and call it accurate facts….
Think I’ll just let others draw their own conclusions from there.

Funny that people continue to bring up quotes from a man that has nothing to do with GW2 …. got to wonder how strong people’s anti-HoT/Raid gear arguments would be if he never made those quotes, making them completely academic.

The real question here isn’t even if there should be gear exclusive to a raid; it’s whether access to certain gears should be accessible through multiple methods and why … and so far, not any compelling reasons are being presented for why that should happen.

nanael the angel.2659:

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

We can keep having this public circular debate , regarding how we each perceive quotes made by someone else, but I would nt say that’s in the greatest benefit of the forums. After all, none of us can claim anything is absolute and not our opinion, since we are not Colin.
I’ve stated my opinion, and presented a solution I believe might work both for casuals and hardcore.
Now you are free to do the same, explaining why you disagree with adding two levels of difficulty for a raid (with the hard one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards), and elaborate from there.
Based on constructive feedback, devs will be informed and act accordingly.
We can’t change what has been done, but we can affect and alter the changes that are yet to come to pass.
Keep it precise, keep it accurate, keep it civil and keep it clean.
Later o/

Actually my claims are objective, not subjective. Legendary gear is not more powerful than ascended. They are objectively, measurably, numerically identical in power. I have kept it precise by avoiding misrepresenting facts in order to support an opinion.

One does not need to be Colin in order to accurately quote him any more than one needs to be Pythagoras to use his theorem.

Really? Then how do you know he is referring to Ascended gear (which did not even exist back then) and not legendary gear, or even both?
Since both are “numerically identical in power” how do you so easily distinguish which gear set he means, when and If, as you say, he is only referring to best stats?
Claiming it’s one, not the other or even both sure seems pretty subjective to me.
Anyway, have a nice day that is my ultimate reply to you as well.

He said, “most powerful.” You dont need to distiguish between ascended and legendary in reference to most powerful because there is no difference in power between ascended an legendary. Zero. None. This is not opinion, this is mathematical, objective fact. If you choose to believe that he meant, “not the most powerful,” when he said, “the most powerful,” that is your prerogative.

1 = 1 is not, “pretty subjective.”

All of that said, you are entitled to your opinion. My niece is of the opinion that my father in law is a million years old. So 65 = 1,000,000.

A and B are both black
We want something that fits the description “black”
You say it is A and just A , not B not a possibility of it being A or B , or even A and B.

Read my previous posts, I never said “not the most powerful”
You say he refairs to top stats, and call it ascended, yet you claim both ascended and legendaries have the same stats,which are top, but keep saying it is ascended, and not legendaries or a possible combination.

You state part of the truth, that SUBJECTIVELY fits your opinion, carefully dismiss the other possibilities and call it accurate facts….
Think I’ll just let others draw their own conclusions from there

I never said that his statement of, “most powerful,” did not include legendary. I have repeatedly said that legendary and ascended are exactly equal in power. You can be outfitted with gear that has no superior level of power in the game without raiding. There is no gear power level gated behind raiding for the simple fact that the same exact power level is available without raiding. What is exclusive to raids is not power. It is the same level of power that can be gained elsewhere, with a different skin and a QoL feature (that I freely admit I am of the opinion is of questinable merit without some sort of frr rune switching mechanic). So raids gate a skin and stat switching on armor, but not power.

Essentially, Legendary weapons, for purpose of power, are ascended tier with a QoL feature tacked on.

If legendary weapons or armor added a free rune/sigil switching function I might actually seek them out (even if I would then reskin them so that I could stand looking at my character) just to free up space in my inventory and bank.

Obtena.7952:

Funny that people continue to bring up quotes from a man that has nothing to do with GW2 …. got to wonder how strong people’s anti-HoT/Raid gear arguments would be if he never made those quotes, making them completely academic.

The real question here isn’t even if there should be gear exclusive to a raid; it’s whether access to certain gears should be accessible through multiple methods and why … and so far, not any compelling reasons are being presented for why that should happen.

Actually, the tangential debate is about ANet’s policies with regard to stat tiers versus skins being available only in specific content. When those statements were made in 2011, he was an official rep for the company. Thus, referring to those statements has relevance to those policies. To wit, the policy was that top tier stats would be broadly available while some skins would be exclusive. That appears to still be the case.

Those statements are 5 years old and I think it’s presumptuous to think they are still accurate statements. Again, everyone here is so focused on a statement from 5 years ago, completely ignoring how the game has developed. I mean, if people don’t see what’s wrong with clinging to a statement made on an MMO from 5 years ago and how a game evolves, I question the experience those people have with MMO’s in the first place.

To be clear, I don’t have a problem with a policy that makes skins or stats exclusive to instanced content; I believe that whatever is exclusive to a raid should not be necessary to access/succeed in content OUTSIDE of it; so far GW2 delivers on that.

My problem is that if someone doesn’t agree with either policy position, they just quote a 5 year old statement that may not be relevant to this game as it evolves and make pedantic arguments over it. It’s REALLY easy to turn you head away from that if your Anet.

When is the drop-off point past which statements are no longer something you can base expectations on?

Five years? One year? One day? The very moment the statement doesn’t match reality anymore?

IndigoSundown.5419:

That he thought of dungeons as raid equivalents should tell you something.

Yes, it does, but then i do have a better memory. I remember, that dungeons were meant to be “gw2 equivalent of raids” not because Anet thought they will be as hardcore, but for a completely different reason. Anet didn’t want to have Raid-type content in their game then, because they were aiming at a more casual game. Thus dungeons being “raid- equivalent” means “where in other games are raids, our equivalent – dungeon explorables – will be way more open to the players”.

IndigoSundown.5419:

That they turned out easier, especially after more than 3 years, well, that’s a player thing.

That’s a dev thing. They were harder once, but Anet decided they didn’t want that and nerfed them hard. More than once, actually.

Manasa Devi.7958:

When is the drop-off point past which statements are no longer something you can base expectations on?

Five years? One year? One day? The very moment the statement doesn’t match reality anymore?

The development lifetime of the average MMO lasts what? 15 years if you’re lucky? So where does 5 place you? Would it be all that unreasonable for a game dev to say “oh this policy isn’t working” after a few years and make an adjustment or abandon it altogether?

These policies are driven by the BUSINESS reality in the current time, not what happened years ago while the game wasn’t even released. In my estimation, it worked for a few years while they were ‘tidying up’ from the initial release when everyone was new, joining. Now we have a game of experienced players. Situation is much different. I don’t think it’s unreasonable the policy changes.

Yeah, that statement probably made LOTS of sense when it was made. Does it make sense now or in the future? Do you see a game existing for another 5 -10 years releasing content simply for the story and new skins with no gear progression locked behind some content? That’s a hard sell if I’m a shareholder and also if I’m a gamer looking to do more than log in for a daily reward.

Fact is that (I will say it for the 3rd time), holding on to someone’s statement as gospel truth for the lifetime of the game makes no sense, so when can you drop it? I would say it’s when you recognize the game has matured from infancy, or any other stage where the policy seems restricting to the growth of the game. It’s not a compelling argument to say “hey, here is your etched in stone statement about endgame gear from 5 years ago, now follow it”.

Obtena.7952:

My problem is that if someone doesn’t agree with either policy position, they just quote a 5 year old statement that may not be relevant to this game as it evolves and make pedantic arguments over it. It’s REALLY easy to turn you head away from that if your Anet.

I stopped quoting that article over Asc. some time ago. I quoted the 5 year old article solely because someone claimed that ANet had advertised the game as allowing players to get anything they wanted by playing a little, or playing any content they prefer. The quote seems to belie that assumption. I think the policy of of L Armor via raids is simply an extension of the philosophy talked about 5 years ago. And I’m not trying to convince ANet of anything.

However, I’ll drop it at this point.

i dont know if it was already said but….i think it will be possible to buy the legendary armor. the reason for that are pvp and wvw players, just like now, if you dont want to craft your legendary you can buy it

i know that the new legendary weapons are acc bound , which is terrible for pvp /wvw players because they cant buy it and i dont think that they will make the armor acc bound too.

And if they make it acc bound, im preatty sure a huge kittenstorm will be coming how legendary armor is only available for pve players and doesnt align with the rest of the availabilty of skins ingame

ps: werent legendarys first acc bound too and after major complaiment from pvp players they made them sellable ? i cant really remember

I don’t think Legendary Armor, as a tier of gear (Not just a skin despite having the same stats) should be limited to excessive raiding.

How Legendary Armor is even related to raiding is all speculation though and pointless to argue about. I’m sure suggestions are welcomed.

Frankly, the whole concept behind Legendary Armor seems flawed to being with. The stats swapping is useless if it’s indeed its selling point. I would hate to see if the armor had visual effects like the weapons do. What a mess that would be.

Obtena.7952:

Frankly, the whole concept behind Legendary Armor seems flawed to being with. The stats swapping is useless if it’s indeed its selling point. I would hate to see if the armor had visual effects like the weapons do. What a mess that would be.

Idunno, some people are OCD like me. Everything muuuust be purpleeeee. Perhaps it will have rune selection. Perhaps it will allow you to preset runes allowing you to swap between those. Perhaps it won’t even allow for stat swapping.

Obtena.7952:

I would hate to see if the armor had visual effects like the weapons do. What a mess that would be.

Agreed.

The weapons are bad enough. This could be truly horrid.

I don’t know about you but I feel like I already have my legendary armor: I can switch stats whenever I want with the mystic forge and get the best look possible because I can mix’n’ match whatever armor, dyes and weapons feel the best to my standards for my character.

I’m supremely confident given the track record of every single armor in the entire game when I say I’m not even worried about legendary armor because I know it’s going to look like trash on my Norn women.

The shoulders are going to float up off the character model

The gloves and boots will not be the correct size and will not compensate visually for the horrid shoulder mess to come

I’m sure something else will be completely out of whack also, a completely symmetric armor set with 1 shoulder piece missing? Classic bad design decision, there are ways to asymmetry and this is exactly NOT it, but a very common theme in Anet armor designs for some reason.

I’m sure the particles will be just…bad, meaning overdone in all the wrong ways.

Whoever does their world and landscapes needs to have a heart to heart with whoever does their armor and weapons. And they need to go fix the Norn racial armor rigging so that my rather normal shaped females aren’t wearing gear sized and shaped as if being worn by an 8 foot tall midget gorillas, which is functionally what Norn males seem to be shaped like.

Seriously, take a real life human dwarf, load him up with muscle and fat then scale a picture of him to be Norn sized, this is exactly the body type, and Norn women look nothing like it, and shouldn’t have gear sized and shaped for that mess.

TLDR: I say with confidence that legendary armor is going to be horrendous looking on my female Norn characters and point to every other armor set ever designed and the common threads of how they display on said characters.

I think it should only be obtainable from the raids. If pvpers want it then they need to earn it from the raid like the rest of us xD

Drakz.7051:

I think it should only be obtainable from the raids. If pvpers want it then they need to earn it from the raid like the rest of us xD

Why? After all, if it is to be a mark of prestige, it should be available through content with higher difficulty (and compared to playing against real players, raids are easy).
Or are you afraid you’re not good enough?

Astralporing.1957:

Drakz.7051:

I think it should only be obtainable from the raids. If pvpers want it then they need to earn it from the raid like the rest of us xD

Why? After all, if it is to be a mark of prestige, it should be available through content with higher difficulty (and compared to playing against real players, raids are easy).
Or are you afraid you’re not good enough?

I’m ok with alternate methods to acquire legendary armor. However, given Anet’s release schedule for legendary weapons, I don’t think it’ll happen anytime soon.

as someone mentioned above, the problem with raids is not about them being in the game but about it seems they are the main focus of the devs… oh wait and the pvp leagues, witch leaves casual players with just one shatterer to enjoy

Vayne.8563:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Vayne.8563:

The point is, there are people who raided in other games who came here specifically because the game didn’t have raids and they could get the best stuff without raiding. Now that’s gone.

Um, what do you mean by “the best stuff without _”? It’s a skin, not a stat bonus. Plus the game already required dungeons to get dungeon armor & weapons, fractals to get fractal weapons, silverwastes to get lumi armor, and (for a brief period) WvW to get Legendary Weapons.

When the game first launched and for well over a year after, there were lots of people who said they could never get dungeon skins; it was just too hard. The same for fractals: I know even more people who thought those were inaccessible, too. And of course, there are all sorts of PvP skins (and achievements) gated behind competitive gaming.

So now, people are saying Raids are too exclusive — I have trouble believing that. I think people are claiming foul before ball has landed.

I think it’s reasonable that some people think that a game purportedly designed for casual players should not have any features gated behind skill. I think it’s reasonable that some people think that features should not be gated behind larger groups.

However, I also think it’s completely reasonable for ANet to disagree with both ideals, especially since they are in the business of making games profitable enough to keep making games, which means appealing to different types of players.

---

On a related note, I think there are lots of ways that ANet could try to bridge the differences across the community’s expectations — making Raids easier is one and/or making it easier to obtain mag-shards, but I think those are the most short-sighted.

One of the core sensibilities seems to be that there’s some amazing advantage in having stat-adjustable armor (although frankly I rarely make use of it for legendaries).

So, ANet could introduce a wardrobe-like system that offers something like Trans-statial charges, comparable to transmutation charges — perhaps bought or perhaps crafted — allowing you to change stats (& runes|sigils) on the fly. Legendary owners get the costs waived, so there would still be an advantage and it would probably have to be fairly expensive (for various economic reasons).

Then the only things Raids would gate is a skin. And the game already has plenty of gated skins, so I am hoping this wouldn’t be as much of an issue.

I never had problems with skins. But legendary isn’t just about skins. It’s a tier of gear.

Right now, I have enough skins to choke an ox. Could I work for more skins? Sure. I would I realistically at this point be likely to use more skins….not so much.

But armor that I could reskin taht I could change stats on, that IS something I could work towards. It’s a meaningful goal to me.

My goal used to be achievement points, until I hit my cap and they became too grindy even for me. Now there’s no real reason to push myself to get those achievement points, or in some cases even log in.

Combine that with my finishing getting every dungeon and armor skin…even the PvP reward tracks that are left don’t really interest me that much. Yeah, I could get all the glorious armor, I suppose. I’m just not interested enough in PvP to do that.

So I find myself at a crossroads. If this game is about progression, but there’s no meaningful progression left to me, then I’m not going to play as much.

On the other hand, new story is coming out and that IS meaningful progression to me. This is just growing pains while Anet gets moving on the stuff that I like.

I’m 100% sure something will come out sooner rather than later, another 3-4 months maybe that will get me back into the game hardcore.

But right now, what I have left that I enjoy is helping new players and building the guild…which is what I guess I should be focusing on.

Wow been reading your last few posts on this subject and I agree with you 100% (Uh oh watch the lightning lol) I’m in basically the same boat.

23 Toons all level 80 15 with Map completion and all with Exotic Gear and Ascended trinkets. I’ll never see Ascended Armor or Legendary to much of a boring grind not fun just grind.

I spend my days now (when online) helping Guildies level our Guild Hall and add to it as well as take them on Dungeon runs, Fractals, and whatever anyone wants/needs help with.

Got 3 through the HoT personal story working on #4. I just keep telling myself to keep the faith while awaiting the April Patch. I’m not a fan of PvP or WvW myself lol.

Koceto.6930:

as someone mentioned above, the problem with raids is not about them being in the game but about it seems they are the main focus of the devs… oh wait and the pvp leagues, witch leaves casual players with just one shatterer to enjoy

Raids in the last 6 months:

• Two wings which = 6 boss battles and some trash mobs
• One 3-weight armor set, promised but not yet released

General PvE in the last 6 months:

• 4 maps (more than in the prior two years)
• 4 Map metas, consisting of numerous boss battles, and a large number of events
• Exploration
• Gliding in Magus Falls and now Tyria
• Shatterer revamp
• Masteries
• Adventures
• Legendary Weapon Precursor Crafting
• Multiple 3 tier armor sets and some weapon sets

Raids going forward:

• One more wing, three bosses, in July

General PvE going forward:

• April update (who knows what, but HoT revamps have been mentioned
• July Update: whatever it will be; maybe LS S3 will start then, including access to at least some of the HoT prefix Asc. trinkets.

Please do complain about new content scarcity all you like. However, speaking of focus, your post lacks focus on the true nature of content distribution.

If you were talking WvW on the other hand, that would be a different story. Even there, though, the discrepancy in attention is in comparison to all of PvE, not just raids.

ok I see too many people ignoring the real problem, the fights have a limit.

there are world bosses that last longer than some of the raid encounters, so there’s no argument for casual complaints.

the real problem is that people want hand-out loot, it is not a time restraint issue that prevents casual players from enjoying the raids, it is an unwillingness to learn fight mechanics hidden behind shroud of “I can’t” when they are really saying “I won’t”

Klipso.8653:

ok I see too many people ignoring the real problem, the fights have a limit.

there are world bosses that last longer than some of the raid encounters, so there’s no argument for casual complaints.

the real problem is that people want hand-out loot, it is not a time restraint issue that prevents casual players from enjoying the raids, it is an unwillingness to learn fight mechanics hidden behind shroud of “I can’t” when they are really saying “I won’t”

The real problem is people who like raids think that people who don’t like them want a hand out.

If you didn’t like sour milk but the only way to get what you want was to drink sour milk, you might do it. But you likely wouldn’t enjoy it.

I’ve put a lot of time, effort and energy into doing stuff I like in this game. But if I don’t enjoy raids, suddenly I want a hand out? Or do you suppose some of us bought this game to do something we don’t enjoy.

Answers like this aren’t doing those who love raids any favors at all. All they do al serve to push people who don’t enjoy raids to be more resistant to even saying raids should be in the game.

There are reasons for people not to like raids that have nothing to do with lack of skill or entitlement or laziness. And because this is a game, not a job, we don’t want to do something we don’t enjoy just so people who do enjoy it can have the ability to show off their prowess. For one thing, since raid paths are sold anyway now, there’s nothing to show off anyway. If I see someone with ascended armor at some point, I can just assume he bought runs.

The solution, in my opinion, is to have nice, unique raid skins for raiders so they can show off, but leave the functionality off of it.

Raiding isn’t a casual activity. You can’t really hope to get into a pug and beat it in an hour or two. That mostly doesn’t happen. You need to learn the fight over hours. And if you don’t enjoy that activity, hours of doing something you enjoy in a game seems ridiculous to me.

It’s like asking me to drink sour milk to get something I want in game. I wouldn’t do it. And I don’t think anyone should be required to.

When will you casuals understand that Legendary armour is the same as Ascended. If legendary armour have increased stats then I can understand some of what you are saying. Stop feeling like you are entitled to the gear because you have played for years but don’t have time. Find a group or guild and start working on it as raids are not temporary content.

Should I be entitled to the PvP back because I have played since launch but find the meta boring or MM stupid? Should I be entitled to the new Legendary weapons because I don’t have the time to sit around for events? Should I be entitled to the FotM back because I hate swampland? Get of your lazy kitten and work for something instead of waiting for the gear to fall in your lap.

3 years of easy content and everything available for free has made the casuals more elitist then the actual elitist.

I like how there are people who still are under the delusion that stat-swapping actually matters.