Guild Wars 2

Zypher.7609:

I understand your thinking in how this would improve feedback. But I am inclined to agree with some of the other posters in that a veteran player does not mean they will be good at giving feedback.

I think what the forums and devs could benefit with is an improved forum interface. Maybe one that had an internal ranking system that could promote positive feedback. If an arena-net employee sees a post that has very good feedback, they could increase the user’s score. Once a user has hit a threshold they would gain access to a new portion of the forums that only users above a certain point could access. The forums currently are made up of about 20% good feedback, 20% random “i wants”, 40% of “I dislike x and will make sure everyone knows it” then 20% of trolling. (Numbers do not represent any facts at all, but are my opinion on browsing the forums daily.)

The hardest part for the staff is to weed through all the posts finding the 20% good feedback. They really need a section that a user has to earn in order to have access to. Of course this whole idea would get shut down by the vocal 80% that do not ever post positive feedback.

But in the end, I still stick by my thought that the majority of happy people playing the game do not ever touch the forums. So how do you implement a system to weed out the good feedback from the bad? That would be the real issue, rather than trying to say who is a veteran or not.

Yeah improving feedback was the general idea behind this. And limiting feedback to experienced players was my first thought to apply a filter.

An improved forum interface would certainly help, a rating system like reddit might help. Even though I hate if devs release info on reddit and not on the official forums, i understand why they post there as well.

I think restricting access to beta testing and discussion is a valid approach and is commonly used in beta tests for other games.

And after their open, non-NDA approach until now, i guess it wouldnt go down too well with the player base.

Torsailr.8456:

Wanze.8410:

My goal is not to make Anet only listening to veteran feedback, I am just trying to find a way to streamline better feedback, regardless if that feedback is implemented in the game or not.
I am not trying to highlight or filter good feedback but to minimize unconstructive feedback.

I agree that better feedback is necessary; I don’t think a veteran BWE would accomplish it. I think two things are necessary for better feedback:
1. More dev interaction.
2. More player education on good feedback.

Perhaps I’m overly pessimistic but I don’t believe either is possible here. The first because company policy and/or time availability inhibits dev interaction and the second because most players don’t care enough.

Enough with my pessimism though…how could this work? Perhaps a CDI style feedback thread for each issue (Chronomancer, Tempest, Revenant, events, maps, etc).

Start with Gaile or an appropriate dev creating a feedback thread that starts with an overview of the discussion and rules for posting. The rules and overview post is important to tell players what’s expected and what the devs need to know in feedback. It also tells them how to give the feedback.

Follow that with strict moderation that deletes any post not meeting those rules. The heavy moderation is important to keep the thread on track and acts as a negative reinforcement of the rules; if you can’t follow the rules then you forfeit your voice.

Also, frequent dev acknowledgement of the topics discussed would be important. Frequent being at least every other day, preferably every day though. Dev attention alone is usually enough to keep threads civil and on topic. It also allows the feedback to be a discussion instead of a one sided rant.

I completely agree with 2. but as you said, its hard to accomplish. The CDI´s were a good approach in my opinion and I am sad they didnt pick it up again for HoT.
There is one going on on the API Forums, which isnt frequented by alot of players but funnily enough, sees the most red posts of all sub forums, i think. Feedback and discussion in general in the API subforum is quite enjoyable as there are nearly no troll posts.

John Smith, the Game Economist, started a thread about RNG on the general forums a couple of months back. Even though he didnt really participate in the discussion, he moderated a bit. Its by for not an ideal solution but i guess its better than the status quo and i guess we will see quite some changes to the reward and rng system in HoT due to the feedback of that thread.
I quite like the strict moderation approach as well, only allowing feedback in a certain format and deleting all other posts.

Even though i like feedback and interaction from devs as anybody else, i dont know, if more dev interaction neccessarily means more constructive feedback, as a dev post not only animates players that give valuable feedback but also troll posts/rants etc.

Unfortunately the CDI seems to be Chris Whitesides’ pet project here and when he left nobody picked it up despite promises of it. Things change and people are busy, it’s understandable, but still unfortunate.

Yes any dev post can trigger troll posts and rants. Moderation should clear up the trolls and rants are fine if they’re done constructively…or at least without devolving into flaming.

Dev presence alone won’t directly lead to more constructive feedback but they can help it along by telling players what they need feedback on. The RNG and API (Lawton Campbell and Pat Cavit are awesome) threads are both examples of devs interacting and guiding discussions and both threads have remained constructive and helpful. Unfortunatly the RNG thread seems to have died though.

Another example is what Robert Gee and Roy Cronacher have done with the profession BWE feedback posts today. He’s updated us on what feedback they’ve collected and how they’re using it and, in at least one post, said what’s not being worked on and why. While there has been some grumbling, the presence of a dev also works to help players self moderate. A lot of the negativity stems from lack of communication and, not surprisingly, dev interaction eliminates most of that. I haven’t read through all the feedback in the player made threads for it, but things seem to be moving forward constructively.

Just something for everyone to kick around here while discussing this, there are several different methods in which ArenaNet is getting feedback on HoT at the moment. You have the Devs building the systems and testing them, you have QA going over them, you have the Beta events, both open and restricted(to specific game modes)…there’s also a 4th layer that I’m sure you can figure out what it is. Keep in mind though, that both kinds of feedback are needed, how something feels, and the actual mechanical aspect type of feedback, just as long as it’s constructive, which a lot of people have trouble with unfortunately, and that is really the biggest problem.

I really want this Veteran thing to go away. It is not in any way useful.

To answer the threads initial question:
no.

No. If you wanted to get into the VIP section you shoulda paid the guy.

Hours played doesn’t have a direct correlation of being able to give feedback.

You want to play BWE? Be like the rest of us and purchase HOT.

phokus.8934:

Hours played doesn’t have a direct correlation of being able to give feedback.

You want to play BWE? Be like the rest of us and purchase HOT.

What makes you think so?

If I wanted to get some balance feedback, i rather have it from people, who played 500 hours on each class, rather than someone who only played 1 class for 20 levels.

AFK time, time doing nothing but running around and not using the game mechanics. You’re also making a huge assumption that all “veterans” would give feedback. There’s a bigger incentive for someone who bought the game to give feedback other than someone like yourself.

I can go on about how time played doesn’t equate to being good or being able to give positive feedback.

You’re looking for a free handout and have this gross notion of veteran privilege. Buy the game, play the BWE and give your feedback.

Then buy HoT and start giving this feedback, instead of contributing nothing and further criticizing others for contributing. You claim to be so experienced in giving feedback. Welp, what do you’d call the type of feedback you’re currently contributing?

Wanze.8410:

Hi.

I am a Veteran GW2 player with over 8k hours since head start.

Even though I didnt purchase HoT yet, I am quite looking forward to it and probably will purchase it before launch. But I didnt participate in any beta events for it yet. In fact, i never participated in any beta testing for software before.

So apart from the official info about HoT that Anet releases over time, i get most of my feedback about it from beta testers on these forums, reddit, twitch, fansites etc.

Just like Anet itself.

For many years I have been professionally involved in vocational, postgraduate, informal, educational and experiental training all around the world, so I wasnt only reading all the feedback from the beta testers and communication from the devs from the point of view of a veteran player, looking for the info on the new content of my favourite game modes but was also closely monitoring the communication between Anet and the player base during the last week.

I will never understand why people like you feel the need to post half their resume as if it gives their voice more worth. It’s just diluting your actual arguments and if you actually were such a experienced person you would not need to flander them about as some proud peakitten and you could actually make a point that stands on its own.

As for the BWEs, they are meant for all customers, not just the ones that have played alot. There will be some people who are more experienced in the game beta testing and the like, but the point of a Beta is not only to test the content but also show it to the public. Eventually the views of a veteran player and a more recent player are equally important. And everyone has a different opinion based on many different experiences.

If anything that requires such a resume it would be a paid in house test at Arena Net and their associates. Not a consumer based test.

phokus.8934:

AFK time, time doing nothing but running around and not using the game mechanics. You’re also making a huge assumption that all “veterans” would give feedback. There’s a bigger incentive for someone who bought the game to give feedback other than someone like yourself.

I can go on about how time played doesn’t equate to being good or being able to give positive feedback.

You’re looking for a free handout and have this gross notion of veteran privilege. Buy the game, play the BWE and give your feedback.

I never said that all veterans always give better or more valuable feedback than new players, there are outliers everywhere.

If I wanted to rephrase my initial question, i could also ask:

Does alot of experience in the game in general (or in certain content) make it easier to give good feedback?

Its funny how most posters disagree with my proposal because they think I just made it to be able participate in beta, even though I mentioned that i am not interested in doing so. If I wanted to, I would have prepurchased. I never registered to get a random invite from Anet and also never played a single stronghold match during open beta.
I opened this discussion to see, how feedback in general might be improved.
I never demanded anything and also stated that I dont expect Anet to do a veteran BWE for HoT at this time but people still seem to disagree, just because they think I have ulterior motives.

We are on page 2 already and some arguements keep coming up. Many people dont read my additional posts, so I will try to summarize some of my additional posts and general concerns:

Its obvious that a Veteran BWE in the coming weeks wouldnt go down well with the mayority of the players that posted here. I didnt check posting history on the forums or AP in game of those that opposed it ot determine, if they are mostly new players. So I assume, most of the player base, old and new, are against it.

And I agree. My intention wasnt to make Anet do a vet beta for Hot, just so i can participate in one without having to PP the expansion. In fact, my proposal has pretty little to do with HoT specifically (I posted it in general discussions but it got moved here), I am just using the current beta testing phase as an example because we can all relate to it. My main goal was to find out, how feedback in general can be improved (from both sides).
A veteran BWE was just my initial pitch. Another main reason why I opened this thread was to learn something new for myself. I mentioned that i dont have much experience in beta testing before, so I am looking for some insights form people who have. In fact, I have very little experience in online communication and gaming or networking via social media as well for people my age. Any teenager or young adult probably has way more experience in those regards. Thats why I posted some of my personal stuff, to illustrate my personal and professional interest on that matter. I relied on direct personal and professional communication, interaction and feedback for nearly 10 years and only started online gaming, using social media and online communication more frequently a couple of years ago.

I gonna summarize some concerns and my opinion about them with bullet points with my next post.

I gonna summarize some concerns and my opinion about them with bullet points:

• Not all veterans give better feedback

Thats true. Just because someone is a veteran, doesnt mean he is able to give valuable feedback, that he doesnt water down feedback threads with off topic posts, trolls or give feedback at all. Many of the disgruntled people on the forums are veterans. Most people who get bored or fed up with a game, simply stop playing it. So people who keep sticking around longer than that are more prone to be disgruntled about something.
But the crowd of PPers, who currently participates in BWEs also has those people in them, some of them being veterans, some new players.
So it has to be determined how big those ratios actually are.

• Veteran opinions are biased

Also true. But I dont think its a bad thing. The mayority of concern about the veteran bias seems to be coming from the fear of HoT being tailored towards their wishes. The advantage of having a vet BWE is also that Anet knows the group of people that is giving feedback a little better. I am pretty sure that Anet has a special focus on a certain group of players from a business point of view. Maybe they make more revenue by accounts within their first 6 months compared to accounts aged 1-3. In that case, I would also focus my beta testing on new players.
And thats what they should keep doing, i think. A vet BWE shouldnt take away beta testing from PPers, it should be an addition in the early beta stages. Concerning using a biased group for feedback, I think its a good idea and should could also be implemented for new players, so Anet can focus on their feedback as a target group.
Anet used this kind of bias before during the desert borderlands invitationals and eotm betas, where their focus was on feedback from veterans.