Guild Wars 2

So let me preface this by saying I love this game ANet. People on mapchat knock you all the time for the slightest of things and I’m usually that guy who defends you in some way. You’ve given us a great game to play, and still even after this post, consider GW2 to be the best MMO out there. And I love HoT just as much…

…Except the Mordremoth battle. What the heck happened there ANet?
The HoT story was really good, I even got a little choked up there when Eir died. And the Faolin monster was really awesome. I even really liked how most of it was all about saving Destiny’s Edge using the new group, in a very “Pass the Torch” kind of way.

Then I got to the Mordremoth fight and it singlehandedly killed the entire story for me…

What the hell was that!? Zhaitan was this epic monstrosity who required massive laser cannons attached advanced airships in order to take down. Super epic, and very cinematic, I loved it!
But for Mordremoth you give us an afterthought of a battle where a mutated Barney the Dinosaur stomps around in a boring arena riddled with more bugs than half the game combined, and the way you beat him is by hitting him with your weapon enough times…

That was awful!

I was hoping for some killer, God of War style fight with a massive plant dragon where the dragon itself is the battlefield. Or at the very least something equally awesome. I trusted you would deliver and was eagerly working toward the end, and you managed to drop the ball right on my heart….of Thorns…

So I’m not the only one that thought Mordre is Barney the Dinosaur Version 2!!!!!!! Woooo!!!! The chubby Barney was hilarious tho :P

The battle against Mordremoth is actually two different fights. Spoilers…

Boysenberry.1869:

The battle against Mordremoth is actually two different fights. Spoilers…

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Fight number 1 is the Pact’s battle in Dragon’s Stand against the real physical Mordremoth. This is an epic fight pitting the Pact fleet against the Elder Dragon. But the Pact alone cannot kill Mordemoth because he can just regrow.

Fight number 2 is where the Player and crew go behind enemy lines and ultimate fight Mordremoth from the inside (his mind). The Pact fleet keeps the main force at bay allowing the Player to do this. The “Barney the Dinosaur” is just a figment image of Mordremoth (although yeah, a little weak looking). It is important that the Player kills Mordy inside his mind so that when the Pact kills the body, Mordremoth is dead for good.

That thing you fought is called “MOUTH of Mordremoth”.

Mouth is, just a mouth, like “mouth of zhaitan” so to speak.

Their status is just equal to something like “Teq the Sunless”, a champion of the Elder Dragon.

We never see the real physical Mordremoth, which is what I was looking for so much :/
I’m extremely disappointed with the ending as welll. Why is Mordremoth, a supposedly dragon that symbolize MIND, is so WEAK, and so SMALL in his own realm, “Mind”?

Aomine.5012:

We never see the real physical Mordremoth, which is what I was looking for so much :/
I’m extremely disappointed with the ending as welll. Why is Mordremoth, a supposedly dragon that symbolize MIND, is so WEAK, and so SMALL in his own realm, “Mind”?

I know! That’s what I thought too. This is Mordremoth’s home game. His mental manifestation should have been massive, and unimaginably powerful to equal his own confidence and ego. Instead he’s just a kitten y little dinosaur in his own head.

I’d laugh if I wasn’t crying so much…

EDIT Really? This forum “kittens” the word (d)erp?

Aomine.5012:

That thing you fought is called “MOUTH of Mordremoth”.

Mouth is, just a mouth, like “mouth of zhaitan” so to speak.

Their status is just equal to something like “Teq the Sunless”, a champion of the Elder Dragon.

We never see the real physical Mordremoth, which is what I was looking for so much :/
I’m extremely disappointed with the ending as welll. Why is Mordremoth, a supposedly dragon that symbolize MIND, is so WEAK, and so SMALL in his own realm, “Mind”?

Mordremoth’s body is the jungle itself. You see it everywhere, especially when the floor of the jungle is exposed.

Boysenberry.1869:

Aomine.5012:

That thing you fought is called “MOUTH of Mordremoth”.

Mouth is, just a mouth, like “mouth of zhaitan” so to speak.

Their status is just equal to something like “Teq the Sunless”, a champion of the Elder Dragon.

We never see the real physical Mordremoth, which is what I was looking for so much :/
I’m extremely disappointed with the ending as welll. Why is Mordremoth, a supposedly dragon that symbolize MIND, is so WEAK, and so SMALL in his own realm, “Mind”?

Mordremoth’s body is the jungle itself. You see it everywhere, especially when the floor of the jungle is exposed.

Show Spoiler

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From the wiki: “Due to Mordremoth’s expansive body, its physical, non-plant-like body is called the Mouth of Mordremoth.” Mordremoth’s Mouth cannot be compared to the Mouth of Zhaitan. Zhaitan’s Mouths were mere minions. The Mouth of Mordremoth is attached to Mordremoth’s body.

I don’t think they explain everything very well in-game but I thought the idea was very well done. Mordremoth is too huge to fight the entire body all at once. Mordremoth’s entire body stretches across several maps. You can’t fight that by normal means. So fighting the critical Mouth end that eats the Ley Energy and fighting him from the inside was a very clever way of defeating Mordremoth.

Zhaitan is supposedly much larger when back in trailer, and becomes way smaller in real fight.

So when we fight Mordremoth in his MIND, we don’t need to fight a massive land-like dragon, all we need is a cool dragon that has the size of Zhaitan and LOOK like a dragon.

just want to get this right, you liked fighting Zhaitan cause “epic monstrosity who required massive laser cannons attached advanced airships in order to take down. Super epic, and very cinematic.” but all he does during that fight is hang to a wall, while you shoot him with ‘lasers.’

mechanically, i really enjoyed mordremoth more than zhaitan. even dragon stand is epic. if you dont beat dragon stand he kills everyone on the map.

you also might want to double check the Wiki about the mouth of mordremoth, since it is very different then the mouth of zhaitan, both completely different.

Tenno.6578:

just want to get this right, you liked fighting Zhaitan cause “epic monstrosity who required massive laser cannons attached advanced airships in order to take down. Super epic, and very cinematic.” but all he does during that fight is hang to a wall, while you shoot him with ‘lasers.’

mechanically, i really enjoyed mordremoth more than zhaitan. even dragon stand is epic. if you dont beat dragon stand he kills everyone on the map.

you also might want to double check the Wiki about the mouth of mordremoth, since it is very different then the mouth of zhaitan, both completely different.

I’d argue if wiki’s been edited by some random lore-fanatic who create such scenario himself, or this info is approved by the developers themselves?

wiki title:
Welcome to the official Guild Wars 2 Wiki, the comprehensive reference written and maintained by the players.

well i wont hide that it is maintained by the players. it has so far been pretty credible, and i will trust what it says about mordremoth until a dev clarify’s it. lets not take this too far off topic about the crediblity of a wiki. it is a source non the less.

honestly im less concerned about how HoT ended, then i am about the lack of Malyck and his tree. hopefully he makes it back during a living season.

The physical fight against Mordremoth is in Dragon’s Stand. The mouth is NOT just a champion like claw of jormag or teq. The mental fight….I was very disappointed with his design. He did look very ridiculous. The fight itself wasn’t bad, but was pretty buggy.

Tenno.6578:

just want to get this right, you liked fighting Zhaitan cause “epic monstrosity who required massive laser cannons attached advanced airships in order to take down. Super epic, and very cinematic.” but all he does during that fight is hang to a wall, while you shoot him with ‘lasers.’

mechanically, i really enjoyed mordremoth more than zhaitan. even dragon stand is epic. if you dont beat dragon stand he kills everyone on the map.

you also might want to double check the Wiki about the mouth of mordremoth, since it is very different then the mouth of zhaitan, both completely different.

I did! I remember the first time going though the Tyria personal story thinking about how stupid it would be if the finally battle was just WoW Raid Boss style fight where you just hit him with your weapon enough and he’d die. These dragons are gods and hitting them in the head with a stick isn’t doing to kill them. A massive friggin laser shearing off half it’s body and then getting pelted to death by smaller lasers was quite satisfying I thought.

The Mordremoth fight decided to go with the WoW Raid boss arena style fight though…completely unsatisfying, and lackluster in my opinion fighting a a 10 foot tall dinosaur by beating it in the head with your stick enough times…

ANd then there’s the fact that the Zhaitan battle culminated in a grand celebration and even a really cool song (That to this day I still listen to all the way through). Was a very epic feeling ending. Mordremoth was just “Ok he’s dead now, here’s your loot. The End”

I’ll take the superior mechanics and phases over the visual "epicness" of pressing 1 to fire a cannon every day. Mordy actually felt like a boss fight, rather than a quick time event.

edit: The below point is good, too -- his vision form is certainly larger and hints at a more menacing, dragon form.

If you notice, you see his mental image during the fight. The fat dragon is the avatar he has chosen to fight you with, or maybe even possibly the avatar that the PC and the two NPCs think him to be…a large ugly pathetic dragon who has no real power inside of his own mind.

Mordremoth is one big mesmer, and we used Mordremoth’s own power against it through Trahearne (although I’m still bitter of what the writers did to Trahearne). I’m one of those who suggested/requested a one on one fight with an elder dragon, more specifically, I suggested that after a big army or aerial fight against Mordremoth, we would jump down into the heart of Mordremoth, and finish off it’s remaining essence in a one on one fight. We would then fight a humanoid version of Mordremoth with its last remaining strength. I liked the finished product actually, also the music playing on the background while fighting Mordy was epic. I wish we could fight Mordy like how we fought the Doppelganger in GW1, where Mordy’s abilities are based on the player character’s class, but we did get something like that, sort of, in the form of choosing which NPCs to bring.

apparantly, its even worse, than zhaitan was
good luck with that, im not touching it with a ten foot laser pole

CIndeR.3479:

What the hell was that!? Zhaitan was this epic monstrosity who required massive laser cannons attached advanced airships in order to take down. Super epic, and very cinematic, I loved it!

Lulwat? Killing Zhaitan was like kicking a handicapped kid in a wheelchair… after you broke both his wheels with a railgun.

That said, the end of HoT did feel rushed and the fight was more dragged out than epic. At least we got the satisfaction of finally killing a character that we should have fed to Zhaitan, but thats little comfort.

The elder dragons are all supposed to be absolutely mammoth, but they admitted they had a lot of trouble getting zhaitan right and kinda rushed it – was supposed to be so huge that you could see him looking big even in the distance.

Hence, due to limitations at the time, he hangs on the side of an entire mountain while we pound him with lasers.

Round 2, mordremoth… whom we are told that as we traversed the maguuma jungle we were literally walking on his back, and that his roots have grown so deep that there is no way to physically kill him… at least not permamently. Thus going into his mind was the only way.

Which is kinda a bs way of getting around showing us the real dragon. But I suspect that was because they are STILL struggling to find a way to show us the intended truly immense size of each elder dragon, and also find a way that makes sense for us to fight something so big we are less than insects in terms of size.

So…. for the next dragon, how would they go about showing its size and still letting us kill it without getting silly?

I see you point, OP. I think however that we havent seen the last of him.
1. During the HoT story there are references by characters that it all seems too easy and they they might be walking into a trap. They push ahead regardless as they believe that is the right way forward.
2. Did we really kill Mordermoth in that fight? As someone else pointed out, you can see the skull-like dragon face lurking in the background during the Mordremoth fight. That dino is just his representation. Perhaps we were eventually still fooled into thinking we destroyed him, and Mordy released us into the world again to lure into a false sense of security. After all, what could a couple of years of being dormant matter to an Elder Dragon?
3. What was in all that ley energy escaping, and why did some of it nestle in Glints egg?
Are Glints eggs empty containers to imprint a ley energy signature on? Or do they contain parts of Glint? Could we see a rebirth of Glint (a Kralkatorrik dragon minion after all) or could it be that Mordremoth made a back-up of himself there?
4. Trehearne is killed by the players, after he convinces them that Mordremoth lives as long as he lives. A commander of the Pact in Tyria killed by his own troops is a demoralizing victory. And perhaps Mordy needed that release, that sacrifice, to further his plans?

All in all, I think there are too many unknowns and to really say that we beat him, and the contiuation of LS4 will tell us.
That, or ANet had a kick-buttocks story on paper and did a urinating-poor job of getting scripted to the screen.
Wouldn’t be the first time in the entertainment industry….

It was a bit ironic that the Dragon that ruled over the domain of the Mind, would be defeated so easily within his own mind. You’d think Mordremoth’s mind would have had some truly nightmarish hellspawn within it. But you’re right he chose to represent himself like your average Maguuma dinosaur. Corrupted Faolain was way more threatening.

I watched it on youtube, all I could say is I hope they dont kitten up the next expansion like they did on this.
But with this pos expansion I very much doubt there ever will be. This is so sad compared to the gw1 expansions it’s pathetic.

Idk. Compare it to the fight in Guild Wars 1 where you kill Abbadon. Go in, knock the two hands down. Dps the head. Rinse and repeat. They probably could have designed Mordremoth to be better looking than a large, green, tubby dinosaur, but fight wise it needs to be on a scale that your average solo player can do.

CIndeR.3479:

I was hoping for some killer, God of War style fight with a massive plant dragon where the dragon itself is the battlefield. Or at the very least something equally awesome. I trusted you would deliver and was eagerly working toward the end, and you managed to drop the ball right on my heart….of Thorns…

Considering HoT was released in less than a year from its announcement, plus likely a few months of pre-production before that announcement, there’s only so much you can do in the time given. The game went on hiatus for several months while they brought all hands on deck to finish the expansion, so their goals were quite ambitious. I’m OK with them spending fewer resources on the single player plot if it meant they put more attention to the multiplayer aspect, and they most certainly did with the Mouth of Modremoth battle. The single player experience is something you typically only do once, but the multiplayer activities are the repetitive stuff in MMOs and that’s where I would want to see most of the epic battles.

This post contains SPOILERS for Heart of Thorns, so read at your own risk.

There are several hints, and I’d say outright statements, according to which the Mouth of Mordremoth in Dragon’s Stand is the physical representation of Mordremoth itself. Whether this means the Mouth is Mordremoth’s original form or simply a vine from its body made in its likeness to act as a feeder is debatable, though, thanks to Laranthir’s dialogue box during the battle which muddies the waters. Either way, the Mouth is still more directly connected to Mordremoth than anything we’ve ever seen before for multiple reasons:

1) The great battle outside distracting Mordremoth during the final story mission

During the Hearts and Minds mission as we infiltrate Mordremoth’s lair, we hear the dragon’s roar (which is translated as “Armies cannot stop me” if you play as sylvari). Canach comments the following: “The dragon is focused on the battle outside. We’ll never get a better chance.”

This, to me, heavily implies if not outright states that the Dragon Stand meta (or at least partly; see point 5) is taking place simultaneously with Hearts and Minds, and as it does, it means the Mouth of Mordremoth is, for all intents and purposes, Mordremoth. What other battle of great enough scope would Mordremoth be fighting outside against “armies” if not the Dragon’s Stand meta? The battle near the Heart of Thorns tree forces Mordremoth to divide its attention between dealing with our guild and the Pact’s forces, at least initially (see point 5 for more discussion on this topic).

2) Similarity between the shadowy visage in the Dream and the appearance of the Mouth

If you look closely in the background during the fight against the avatar of Mordremoth (and during the cinematic of entering the Dream in which you and Mordremoth taunt one another, e.g. “Bold words, but empty ones.”), you see a shadowy visage which looks exactly like the Mouth of Mordremoth. This further gives us reason to believe that the Mouth is Mordremoth itself; after all, why would an arrogant Elder Dragon project the likeness of a mere champion into its mind instead of showing itself, or an extension of itself while taunting the Pact Commander?

3) Lines of the Mouth of Mordremoth during the DS meta

During the fight with the Mouth of Mordremoth in Dragon’s Stand, you hear several lines, each angrier than before the closer you get to beating it. Unlike the dragon champions/minions that we’ve seen in game so far, the Mouth actually uses “me/my” instead of “My master/the Jungle Dragon/Mordremoth.”

Based on all the evidence we’ve seen in core game, living world seasons and the expansion so far, no dragon minion, no matter how arrogant or how high in the hierarchy of minions, would ever dare to place itself above the Elder Dragon it serves. All dragon minions fanatically follow and downright worship their dragon master to sickening levels, so why would the Mouth, if it were a mere champion, suddenly deviate from this pattern and want the people it’s fighting to serve it rather than its master?

Some of the notable lines which show the Mouth’s uniqueness in this regard (and thus pointing towards it being Mordremoth himself) are the following lines, taken during the DS meta:

Mouth of Mordremoth: Who dares defy my eternal will?
Mouth of Mordremoth: You are nothing. Submit to me, and serve!

Not exactly the lines an obedient and fanatical dragon champion would say, especially so close to its master’s lair, right?

4) The ending cinematic of the DS meta

The Mouth of Mordremoth, although weakened after the battle in Dragon’s Stand, is still very much alive and is retreating to the Heart of Thorns tree. All of a sudden, in the ending cinematic of that battle, it has what looks like a stroke, releases magic from its body and falls on a spike which impales its head, after which players can access Mordremoth’s Vantage POI and collect loot.

The way the explosion and the “stroke” are set up is because the Commander struck the finishing blow in Mordremoth’s mind at that moment (which resulted in a similar explosion that released magic from its body in four directions), thus crippling the dragon’s physical manifestation at a crucial moment. We know from every other dragon champion that they continue to function even after their dragon master is dead (e.g. see Risen in Arah explorable who still preach the glory of Zhaitan, and Tequatl growing in power and continuing to attack more furiously after Zhaitan’s demise as the events of Tequatl Rising from LW Season 1 were confirmed to take place after Zhaitan’s defeat). So, if the Mouth were a mere minion, it wouldn’t have had the stroke and died like that; we would’ve simply continued the fight and hacked it to pieces instead of seeing it happen in a cinematic.

The reason why the explosive release of magic looks greater in the story ending cinematic than in the actual DS meta finale could have several reasons: 1) the game engine would not be able to depict it accurately and thus shows a more limited view of it, and 2) the explosion’s scope is made ambiguous enough so both interpretations for when the battle takes place are valid due to the way it’s been written (see point 5).

5) Laranthir’s lines during the DS meta

If you talk to Laranthir during the Dragon’s Stand meta (on one of the floating islands), he expressly says some interesting stuff about the Mouth of Mordremoth, and his dialogue changes depending on if you’ve already completed the final story mission or not. The relevant snippets:

Laranthir: (before completing story) Our scouts believe the creature before us is feeding on ley-line energy for its master, but Mordremoth is an entity of mind and dream. That’s where you’ll have to go to defeat it.
Laranthir: (after completing story) Though you killed Mordremoth within its realm of mind, the physical manifestation of its hunger still remains in our world, still feeding on this hub of ley-line energy.

Note the use of the word “believe”, which indicates the scouts only assume things without knowing the full truth, and the phrase “the physical manifestation of [Mordremoth’s] hunger” when referring to the Mouth later on. One could try to argue based on these lines of dialogue that the Mouth is a mere minion, but the evidence we’ve seen above (in points 1-4) shows otherwise.

At most we can say regarding the minion “theory” is that Mordremoth grew the Mouth out of itself (hence the long, vine-like body for the Mouth), the Mouth is connected directly to Mordremoth and allows the dragon to possess it to taunt enemies when needed. But for all intents and purposes the Mouth is, as evidence seen in game suggests, the physical form of Mordremoth we fight regardless of semantics, so we did get to fight an epic battle against an Elder Dragon both physically in the open world and in the centre of its mind.

Sources for Laranthir’s dialogue:
Before completing story
After completing story

Nate.8146:

CIndeR.3479:

I was hoping for some killer, God of War style fight with a massive plant dragon where the dragon itself is the battlefield. Or at the very least something equally awesome. I trusted you would deliver and was eagerly working toward the end, and you managed to drop the ball right on my heart….of Thorns…

Considering HoT was released in less than a year from its announcement, plus likely a few months of pre-production before that announcement, there’s only so much you can do in the time given. The game went on hiatus for several months while they brought all hands on deck to finish the expansion, so their goals were quite ambitious. I’m OK with them spending fewer resources on the single player plot if it meant they put more attention to the multiplayer aspect, and they most certainly did with the Mouth of Modremoth battle. The single player experience is something you typically only do once, but the multiplayer activities are the repetitive stuff in MMOs and that’s where I would want to see most of the epic battles.

Well, because of the difficulty of how to obtain all the new items and new currencies, people would be inclined to do the story 9+ times from all classes to get enough skins and leyline sparks…

So yeah, some people will play at least 9 times.

Is this like why people think Claw of Jormag is Jormag? xD

Morfedel.4165:

The elder dragons are all supposed to be absolutely mammoth, but they admitted they had a lot of trouble getting zhaitan right and kinda rushed it – was supposed to be so huge that you could see him looking big even in the distance.

Hence, due to limitations at the time, he hangs on the side of an entire mountain while we pound him with lasers.

Round 2, mordremoth… whom we are told that as we traversed the maguuma jungle we were literally walking on his back, and that his roots have grown so deep that there is no way to physically kill him… at least not permamently. Thus going into his mind was the only way.

Which is kinda a bs way of getting around showing us the real dragon. But I suspect that was because they are STILL struggling to find a way to show us the intended truly immense size of each elder dragon, and also find a way that makes sense for us to fight something so big we are less than insects in terms of size.

So…. for the next dragon, how would they go about showing its size and still letting us kill it without getting silly?

And yet, somehow, DE was able to face off alone against an Elder Dragon with only the help of Glint, and almost kill it.

Serophous.9085:

And yet, somehow, DE was able to face off alone against an Elder Dragon with only the help of Glint, and almost kill it.

“only the help of Glint” Kinda think that gives them more than a bit of an edge to have a mother flippin’ Elder dragon on their team when fighting against another Elder Dragon. I imagine DE actually had very little to do with the equation.

What you just said is like someone saying “Yeah this handful of civilians just destroyed a whole tank all by themselves! I mean yeah they ALSO had a tank, but how did they manage that miracle all by themselves!?…(and a tank)”

I get what you are trying to say I just thought it was funny the way you said it XD

im going to say one thing , you did not kill Mr Mordy physically and have not found the source of his power that is controling the remaining sylvari , and or have found rouge sylvari from different trees or corrupt seeds.

even if his mind was Destoryed his is like the internet so i’d guess if that source of power still remains Mordy lives, which leads to the blood stone again and layline energy.

i do wonder that the blood stone broken maybe the cause of a corrupted seed and the large city in Auric basin is just a means for creating elder beings or dragons in this case.
its a large city desgined like the aztecs sacrifices everywhere , they even killed themselfs to protect glints vision and ideals.

all we know is this egg could not be glints egg but somthing glint was protecting keeping it away from the blood stone.

speculation i know but this blood stone is Cursed.

the fight has only just began.

CIndeR.3479:

Serophous.9085:

And yet, somehow, DE was able to face off alone against an Elder Dragon with only the help of Glint, and almost kill it.

“only the help of Glint” Kinda think that gives them more than a bit of an edge to have a mother flippin’ Elder dragon on their team when fighting against another Elder Dragon. I imagine DE actually had very little to do with the equation.

What you just said is like someone saying “Yeah this handful of civilians just destroyed a whole tank all by themselves! I mean yeah they ALSO had a tank, but how did they manage that miracle all by themselves!?…(and a tank)”

I get what you are trying to say I just thought it was funny the way you said it XD

Except Glint wasn’t an Elder Dragon, but a champion.

So… your character faces an elder dragon in a battle of will where the stronger mind wins and you kick the dragon’s kitten (with some really cool comments that would fit any cheesy action-adventure movie)… and you still complain about not seeing some epic monstrosity?

Okay then.

I think the Mordremoth fight made sense. One of the NPC’s stated we can’t just burn the jungle down to kill him because he’s spread too far and the roots would grow back. So instead we fought him in his mind while the Pact forces were battling the Mouth and keeping him busy.