Guild Wars 2

It was said that toughness would be more important in HoT. can you elaborate on this change?

bring out all the PTV!!!! :P

1.) the devs have heavily implied that dodging all damage wont be possible

2.) toughness synergizes with healing, particularly healing by a healer build

We’re gonna have to learn to take multiple hits over a period of time.

In boxing, you would deliberately move into the blow to reduce the impact it could have had at full threshold

Shoe.5821:

1.) the devs have heavily implied that dodging all damage wont be possible

2.) toughness synergizes with healing, particularly healing by a healer build

They made daredevil to turn thief into a proper evasion class after killing Acro (just to make DD relevant btw). Now you say they imply that Daredevils wont be able to do what they were created to do? wait please tell me this is a joke. How exactly is toughness going to scale with thief’s health pool and mechanics that depend on avoiding damage in the first place.

Simple reasoning: currently toughness is more beneficial to heavy then medium and finally paper wearers.

Might need more paper wearers in raids.

So they will make heavy armor get even more of a bonus so that squishies are even more squishy and toughness becomes even more pointless in most pvp where burst damage is now so high it makes no difference having 1k toughness or over 2k on a medium armor toon.

Notsoperky.4291:

Simple reasoning: currently toughness is more beneficial to heavy then medium and finally paper wearers.

Might need more paper wearers in raids.

So they will make heavy armor get even more of a bonus so that squishies are even more squishy and toughness becomes even more pointless in most pvp where burst damage is now so high it makes no difference having 1k toughness or over 2k on a medium armor toon.

It’s the opposite the more HP and less armor you have more beneficial toughness is (against direct damage).

Notsoperky.4291:

Simple reasoning: currently toughness is more beneficial to heavy then medium and finally paper wearers.

Might need more paper wearers in raids.

So they will make heavy armor get even more of a bonus so that squishies are even more squishy and toughness becomes even more pointless in most pvp where burst damage is now so high it makes no difference having 1k toughness or over 2k on a medium armor toon.

As mentionned above, it is indeed the opposite. Adding more toughness to a heavy class will not be as efficient, when you compare % increase and such. Same goes for vitality.

I’ll take necro for example. Necromancers have 19k HP, and 2000 armor (from equips + base toughness). Adding 1k toughness will reduce damage taken by 33% (direct damage). Adding 1k vitality (3k hp, I think), will reduce relative damage (to max HP) by 15%.

But then there’s condition damage, which ignores armor. And there’s healing, which gets its relative effectiveness reduced with more HP.

Hope this helps, and makes sense.

Currently HoT mobs in beta hit hard towards players that lack proper amount of toughness and/or Vitality.

With some abilities designed to be unavoidable players will need to rethink what stats they put into their gears for HoT area.

My best guess is that HoT mobs are being adjusted and designed around slaughtering any player that would go full DPS or any type of build that would ignore Toughness and Vitality.

My worst is that Toughness may be adjusted to be far more useful like how they plan to adjust Healing Power for HoT.

If you ask Anet mention something about Healing Power affecting condition damage or something.

Currently Toughness is WORTHLESS… As a WvW player, there is no difference between no Toughness and 4k Armor. This comes from experience, go Toughness, lose all damage and die in 1 second due to all the damage / condi’s received. Go Damage, Die in same amount of time. Go Condi, Possibly do damage and die and down at least 1 enemy due to OP burning.

Oh yeah, P.S. NERF BURNING

EdwinLi.1284:

Currently HoT mobs in beta hit hard towards players that lack proper amount of toughness and/or Vitality.

With some abilities designed to be unavoidable players will need to rethink what stats they put into their gears for HoT area.

My best guess is that HoT mobs are being adjusted and designed around slaughtering any player that would go full DPS or any type of build that would ignore Toughness and Vitality.

My worst is that Toughness may be adjusted to be far more useful like how they plan to adjust Healing Power for HoT.

If you ask Anet mention something about Healing Power affecting condition damage or something.

link to that pls? this would make my dream condi/healing rev a thing! :-D

Toughness work well against fast and relatively small hit. 1-2k damage per hit (at 2 hit/second) being almost ideal values to make toughness, healing and passive defense/offense mechanics needed/viable/desirable.

As soon as it’s above this range of values some professions lose their viability (the first profession to lose it being the thief).

Knighthonor.4061:

It was said that toughness would be more important in HoT. can you elaborate on this change?

Basically, if you can’t avoid all damage through dodging/ evading/ blocking then you will have to mitigate it through armour. Currently toughness has little use because damage can be mitigated (see above).

Increasing your armour from 2k (avg base of the 3 armour classes) to 3k by adding 1k toughness (armour = armour rating + toughness) you will reduce damage by about 33%. That’s the same as having perma protection. Classes like Rev’s and Guardians can already get high protection uptime, so these classes suddenly have around 44% more damage mitigation.

If these so called elite raid bosses hit the average zerker for 10k a hit, a Guardian with protect and 1k toughness will take 5.6k. That’s 4.4k less damage it took which adds over the course of a fight. A Rev on the other hand who has 1k toughness, protect, taunt (traited for 20% less damage) and his jails utility 9 ability, could have 63% damage mitigation so that 10k hit becomes only 3.7k.

Remember, these bosses have enrage timers so you need to find a balance between mitigation and damage. Also, we’ll have to see how hard these raids really are.

Terra.8571:

Increasing your armour from 2k (avg base of the 3 armour classes) to 3k by adding 1k toughness (armour = armour rating + toughness) you will reduce damage by about 33%. That’s the same as having perma protection. Classes like Rev’s and Guardians can already get high protection uptime, so these classes suddenly have around 44% more damage mitigation.

I think it’s actually 55% damage mitigation (4/9 = 2/3 * 2/3 damage taken, 5/9 damage mitigated), and not 44%.

For anyone that wants burning nerfed…have you ever been on fire?

I bet it’s OP.

Wasderty.7803:

Terra.8571:

Increasing your armour from 2k (avg base of the 3 armour classes) to 3k by adding 1k toughness (armour = armour rating + toughness) you will reduce damage by about 33%. That’s the same as having perma protection. Classes like Rev’s and Guardians can already get high protection uptime, so these classes suddenly have around 44% more damage mitigation.

I think it’s actually 55% damage mitigation (4/9 = 2/3 * 2/3 damage taken, 5/9 damage mitigated), and not 44%.

You’re probably right, I can’t find any obvious source exactly how damage mitigation modifiers are applied (I just know it’s not additively) because I had 100% damage mitigation at one point and still took a tiny bit of dps. Thanks for clearing that up.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

For anyone that wants burning nerfed…have you ever been on fire?

I bet it’s OP.

Yes, and yes it is.

Well I can say with a full set of ascended rabid/dire set the toughness does help when all your teammates died now you have to solo something like Spider queen in AC, of course necros are naturally tanky so that helps

Shoe.5821:

1.) the devs have heavily implied that dodging all damage wont be possible

2.) toughness synergizes with healing, particularly healing by a healer build

It’s also worth mentioning that since we live in a zero-sum world, vitality scales very well with healing, assuming we start seeing very large healing output like what would be present WoW.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

For anyone that wants burning nerfed…have you ever been on fire?

I bet it’s OP.

Ever had an artery cut? or been poisoned with a neurotoxin? They’re pretty OP in real-life too.

But in GW2 land, burning is significantly more effective than the other conditions, and disproportionately rewards the few classes that can stack it effectively. It just needs small tweak downwards.

Knighthonor.4061:

It was said that toughness would be more important in HoT. can you elaborate on this change?

It’s not. Once an event gets scaled so high, bosses are going to one shot you with normal attacks anyway, no matter how much toughness you have.

For solo pve solo roaming, dungeons, and raids, maybe it’ll be worth. But if you are planning on running the big events, its worthless.

I would like it if Toughness actually made a difference. In SPvP, in full toughness runes/amulet I still get burst down in seconds.
Toughness in its current shape is a useless stat, if it can’t save anybody.

Thing is getting the right balance between dps and toughness/vitality. Dps is a form of damage mitigation too. If you burst down a foe quickly that foe can no longer damage you. But the reason why PvE zerker meta exists is because most people what to do as much content in a single (usually time-limited) play session as they can, i.e do content quicker.

If everyone starts going top heavy with Toughness and Vit gear that will slow people and maybe even PvE zergs down a bit in HoT, from Anet’s point of view content may last longer too and slow down people burning their way through new content.

Toughness is useless due to DR. Going above 2650 armor is pointless. Till they rework it, toughness will remain as joke. A revenant can pop up rite of the dwarf with protection for 83% reduction. Toughness is not even close to that damage mitigation even if i get above 4000 armor and hitting like a wet noodle at the same time.

Importance of toughness can only be improved, if (ironically) mob damage gets lowered significantly. Changing current situation of few huge attacks to many small ones with the same dps total will simply make people die regardless of toughness, since mobs are outputting damage sufficient to kill players many times over. It’s only through completely avoiding majority of that damage that players can survive.

No love for toughness? They can actually spearhead attacks and draw enemy fire away from you and your allies with high toughness. They are the proverbial ‘cavalry chargers’, aimed to cause shock amongst the enemy and break apart their formation (what we commonly have as “zerg ball”, with the help of some CC and other skills). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_tactics

I still wonder how HoT areas will handle current GW2 builds.

So far we know certain amount of HoT mobs can one shot zerker build players or almost one shot them in the beta but of course some players are calling for a nerf because it disrupts their zerker build.

After all what would be the point of zerker build in HoT if HoT introduce mobs that cannot be blinded, unblockable, and have attacks that ignore reflects while having the ability to one or two shot anyone that ignores toughness and vitality in their gears.

I’ve done the beta myself and can’t think of a single area where I can’t be in full zerker.

Yeah, i have done the beta in full zerker. Died several times because i didn’t know their skills, rather than them being anti-zerker.

Otaur.9268:

Currently Toughness is WORTHLESS… As a WvW player, there is no difference between no Toughness and 4k Armor. This comes from experience, go Toughness, lose all damage and die in 1 second due to all the damage / condi’s received. Go Damage, Die in same amount of time. Go Condi, Possibly do damage and die and down at least 1 enemy due to OP burning.

This is one of the most ignorant things I’ve ever read.

The fact toughness does so very little is WHY it is regarded as such a worthless stat in the first place. This is not a delicate balance issue, it’s an issue of them not allowing for a true hard counter play.
Burst is pure up front damage and it is supposed to be countered by high toughness, which in turn is hard countered by condition builds as they ignore toughness anyway.

Where talking hard counter here. As in the thief specced for pure burst/spike damage sneaks up and executes a flawless backstab/shiv burst combo upon an unsuspecting fool…who so happens to be toughness build…should have a very rude awakenning of doing little damage and now having to deal with someone they have to whittle down as big number spike damage is wasted against them.
High toughness builds should die from a thousand cuts and laugh in the face of anyone attempting the current burster 3-5 skill kills.

I say this as someone that tends to pvp as condition specs that would fight toughness or burst the same way anyway.