Guild Wars 2

I have officially lost interest in this thread. Reading a laundry list of useless ire is accomplishing nothing. Off to other threads. GLHF!!!

Exciton.8942:

Nausicca.6038:

fireflyry.7023:

I’ve read some pretty valid and well put points from both sides of the fence, no need to derail it with fictional over-exaggeration and belittlement.

People are already over exaggerating with the HP grind.
Actualy, GW2 is the only MMO that allow you to get your BiS gear BEFORE the expac launch.
No level cap increases. No level locking behind instanced dungeons.
Insta lvl 80 revenant with tomes.

The counterpart is… HP. Consider it as the new XP for your elite spec. What’s wrong with that?

Because it is inherently different from XP prior to 80. You could do pretty much anything you like to earn that XP. This HP requirement forces you to do one thing——map exploration grinding.

So if we need 160 HP to unlock the traits part of our spec… that means 16 challenges. Not 160 or 1600.
16
Where’s the grind again?

Is the entitlement that real?

Nausicca.6038:

Exciton.8942:

Nausicca.6038:

fireflyry.7023:

I’ve read some pretty valid and well put points from both sides of the fence, no need to derail it with fictional over-exaggeration and belittlement.

People are already over exaggerating with the HP grind.
Actualy, GW2 is the only MMO that allow you to get your BiS gear BEFORE the expac launch.
No level cap increases. No level locking behind instanced dungeons.
Insta lvl 80 revenant with tomes.

The counterpart is… HP. Consider it as the new XP for your elite spec. What’s wrong with that?

Because it is inherently different from XP prior to 80. You could do pretty much anything you like to earn that XP. This HP requirement forces you to do one thing——map exploration grinding.

So if we need 160 HP to unlock the traits part of our spec… that means 16 challenges. Not 160 or 1600.
16
Where’s the grind again?

Because the requirement is 40HP.

16HP means I probably can do it by exploring two maps. Kinda annoying but still okay.
40HP means I have to it over all 4 maps and there is a large chance that they are located at hard-to-reach positions that require mastery. Then I have to grind mastery and then grind exploration before I can unlock my skills/traits.

My thought on it is this, I thought we were finally getting somewhere with moving toward account based unlocks. Characters should be, for the most part, replaceable. Our accounts should be the focus of progression and the character just a visual representation of us. That’s why I like Masteries but, Specializations shouldn’t be so long to obtain. Especially when they’ll likely add more in the future. Say I have a Reaper and wanted to replace the character, how long would it take to roll a fresh character and actually play as a Reaper again? That repetition and duration is what I’m worried about in the future.

Morfedel.4165:

I have officially lost interest in this thread. Reading a laundry list of useless ire is accomplishing nothing. Off to other threads. GLHF!!!

hold on a mo – I claim my gold…

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/specializations-part-two-reward-tracks-and-elite-specializations/

“As long as you’ve purchased Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns, you’ll automatically unlock access to all elite specializations in PvP.”

Laosduude.1690:

Is the entitlement that real?

If you mean with entitlement making sure that the new maps don’t become hero point train/zerg-fests because of some masochistic sense of progression, the yes my entitlement is that real.

Exciton.8942:

Nausicca.6038:

Exciton.8942:

Nausicca.6038:

fireflyry.7023:

I’ve read some pretty valid and well put points from both sides of the fence, no need to derail it with fictional over-exaggeration and belittlement.

People are already over exaggerating with the HP grind.
Actualy, GW2 is the only MMO that allow you to get your BiS gear BEFORE the expac launch.
No level cap increases. No level locking behind instanced dungeons.
Insta lvl 80 revenant with tomes.

The counterpart is… HP. Consider it as the new XP for your elite spec. What’s wrong with that?

Because it is inherently different from XP prior to 80. You could do pretty much anything you like to earn that XP. This HP requirement forces you to do one thing——map exploration grinding.

So if we need 160 HP to unlock the traits part of our spec… that means 16 challenges. Not 160 or 1600.
16
Where’s the grind again?

Because the requirement is 40HP.

16HP means I probably can do it by exploring two maps. Kinda annoying but still okay.
40HP means I have to it over all 4 maps and there is a large chance that they are located at hard-to-reach positions that require mastery. Then I have to grind mastery and then grind exploration before I can unlock my skills/traits.

and how many hp does the main character you want in the jungle have? Mine sitting on 200 so i am pretty much a scrapper now, once release get here.

DeWolfe.2174:

My thought on it is this, I thought we were finally getting somewhere with moving toward account based unlocks. Characters should be, for the most part, replaceable. Our accounts should be the focus of progression and the character just a visual representation of us. That’s why I like Masteries but, Specializations shouldn’t be so long to obtain. Especially when they’ll likely add more in the future. Say I have a Reaper and wanted to replace the character, how long would it take to roll a fresh character and actually play as a Reaper again? That repetition and duration is what I’m worried about in the future.

I completely disagree.

Characters should always be the focus of progression. Interchangable characters create a balance environment where your developer ends up not really caring when things are broken. “So what if class X can’t do content Y? They can just roll class Z and transfer the rewards”

Not only that, it completely kills any sense of accomplishment or fondness for individual characters. It’s an RPG. Characters are things that are supposed to evolve over time based upon the trials they face and the challenges they overcome.

Certain account based systems that allow you to give alts an advantage are cool. You obviously built this support system. Completely replacing character advancement is not cool at all. At that point you may as well remove characters as a system entirely, and just have a single avatar you can respec at will.

There is literally not point to alts when you remove character based advancement systems, and no reward for advancing those alts.

Bettik.4982:

Morfedel.4165:

I have officially lost interest in this thread. Reading a laundry list of useless ire is accomplishing nothing. Off to other threads. GLHF!!!

hold on a mo – I claim my gold…

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/specializations-part-two-reward-tracks-and-elite-specializations/

“As long as you’ve purchased Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns, you’ll automatically unlock access to all elite specializations in PvP.”

in PvP

And that is totally what is happenning.

Remember that Anet has never referred to WvW as “PvP” and always referred to it as “WvW”

ReiCH.6273:

If they wanted us to have things to do, they could do something original like give us more maps, story to go with said maps, up the crafting to 500 for all professions, revamp the dungeons so they’re not the sad affair they are now, put in more fractal islands istead of making us grind the same one we’ve had already. And if they really really wanted us to have some stuff to do AND impress everybody at the same time, they’d revamp underwater combat to a state that’s both playable and fun and leave us all speachless with that amazing huge underground lake that’s illuminated by various minions of mordremoth and it’s choke full of stuff to see and experience. Instead they’ll have us grind four maps to the point where the word maguuma will cause vomit to some of us…

How is anything you said her original? WoW did most of this, I do love how people cling to the there are only 4 maps. Each map has 3 different levels, so it could be argued that each map, is in fact 3 different maps in one.

Not the same people. Many many ppl were perfectly happy with the difficulty setting. People join in the forum noise when they’re not happy, when they are, they’re in game enjoying themselves. So as one crowd got satisfied (the make it harder folk), the previously satisfied crowd (was fine as it was folk) joined the forum noise to express their newly found dissatisfaction. Really, is it so hard to understand that? “People” aren’t a hive mind, there’s no collective anywhere. So “people” did this or that means absolutely nothing cause each time it’s -different- people.

Wait, there are different people in the world? But seriously, if it was not that big of a deal, “challenging content” would not be a thing. Also people forget that everything is hard when you don’t know what you are doing. When you are fighting the same mobs you have been fighting for the last 3 years, it’s going to be easy. You know what to expect and how to do the fight. When ANet add new mobs the game gets challenging again, as you have to learn how to fight those mobs. But then people cried about how hard mordem wolfs where.

This was done, all of it, to obfuscate the fact that this isn’t an expansion, but a big feature pack with some living story and a couple of features thrown in. Cause had they made this thing any less grindy than it already is, we’d be done with it in 2 weeks.

Let’s hope the next expansion (if the game doesn’t die off in the meanwhile) comes relatively soon and it’s a proper one…

Maybe, maybe not. We will find out in a few days.

PopeUrban.2578:

Bettik.4982:

Morfedel.4165:

I have officially lost interest in this thread. Reading a laundry list of useless ire is accomplishing nothing. Off to other threads. GLHF!!!

hold on a mo – I claim my gold…

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/specializations-part-two-reward-tracks-and-elite-specializations/

“As long as you’ve purchased Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns, you’ll automatically unlock access to all elite specializations in PvP.”

in PvP

And that is totally what is happenning.

Remember that Anet has never referred to WvW as “PvP” and always referred to it as “WvW”

Truth, as unfortunate as it may be, WvW has always been referred to as more like PvE than PvP by the Devs. Whether we agree with their take on it or not is irrelevant.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Your question doesn’t make any sense. You need the hero points to use the knew specialization, NOT to do any content within the new zones.

A gear treadmill is designed specifically to be able to complete content, only.

PopeUrban.2578:

Because elite specs are optional you do not need to unlock the current elite spec to gain the ability to unlock the next one, or the one after that, and so on.

And further, the elite specs themselves are not purely vertical progression. They are optional horizontal progression. They add options at the expense of taking core weapons trait lines, and utilities. They’re not simply raw buffs that pile on top of the three core specs you’d already have on your character.

You won’t have four specs in the next release, and five after that, creating a system of perpetual upward advancement where you have to do A to be powerful enough to access B.

In stead, you have to do core to unlock core, and from there you choose to persue an elite spec, or stick with a core build. Going forward you choose which elite spec you want to persue, and as the system expands you have an ever broadening range of options for how to actually unlock those specs, since unlike masteries, hero points are not regional, but global systems.

Congratulations, you’ve now returned full circle to the point about how elite specs are optional, not a part of the actual content, and therefore do not add value by being gated because it is irrespective of the content in question.

I rest my case.

PopeUrban.2578:

DeWolfe.2174:

My thought on it is this, I thought we were finally getting somewhere with moving toward account based unlocks. Characters should be, for the most part, replaceable. Our accounts should be the focus of progression and the character just a visual representation of us. That’s why I like Masteries but, Specializations shouldn’t be so long to obtain. Especially when they’ll likely add more in the future.[…]

I completely disagree.

Characters should always be the focus of progression.

I completely disagree. The player should always be the focus of progression, balanced against the progression of the player character…

Black Box.9312:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Your question doesn’t make any sense. You need the hero points to use the knew specialization, NOT to do any content within the new zones.

A gear treadmill is designed specifically to be able to complete content, only.

PopeUrban.2578:

Because elite specs are optional you do not need to unlock the current elite spec to gain the ability to unlock the next one, or the one after that, and so on.

And further, the elite specs themselves are not purely vertical progression. They are optional horizontal progression. They add options at the expense of taking core weapons trait lines, and utilities. They’re not simply raw buffs that pile on top of the three core specs you’d already have on your character.

You won’t have four specs in the next release, and five after that, creating a system of perpetual upward advancement where you have to do A to be powerful enough to access B.

In stead, you have to do core to unlock core, and from there you choose to persue an elite spec, or stick with a core build. Going forward you choose which elite spec you want to persue, and as the system expands you have an ever broadening range of options for how to actually unlock those specs, since unlike masteries, hero points are not regional, but global systems.

Congratulations, you’ve now returned full circle to the point about how elite specs are optional, not a part of the actual content, and therefore do not add value by being gated because it is irrespective of the content in question.

I rest my case.

Optional does not mean they are not part of the content, or not an advancement system.

it means they are exactly what they were designed to be.

A horizontal progression system

PopeUrban.2578:

Bettik.4982:

Morfedel.4165:

I have officially lost interest in this thread. Reading a laundry list of useless ire is accomplishing nothing. Off to other threads. GLHF!!!

hold on a mo – I claim my gold…

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/specializations-part-two-reward-tracks-and-elite-specializations/

“As long as you’ve purchased Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns, you’ll automatically unlock access to all elite specializations in PvP.”

in PvP

And that is totally what is happenning.

Remember that Anet has never referred to WvW as “PvP” and always referred to it as “WvW”

I don’t recall Morfedel limiting his challenge to a specific game mode…

Bettik.4982:

PopeUrban.2578:

Bettik.4982:

Morfedel.4165:

I have officially lost interest in this thread. Reading a laundry list of useless ire is accomplishing nothing. Off to other threads. GLHF!!!

hold on a mo – I claim my gold…

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/specializations-part-two-reward-tracks-and-elite-specializations/

“As long as you’ve purchased Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns, you’ll automatically unlock access to all elite specializations in PvP.”

in PvP

And that is totally what is happenning.

Remember that Anet has never referred to WvW as “PvP” and always referred to it as “WvW”

I don’t recall Morfedel limiting his challenge to a specific game mode…

Oh crap semantic loopholes. I’m glad I didn’t put up any money!

Bettik.4982:

PopeUrban.2578:

DeWolfe.2174:

My thought on it is this, I thought we were finally getting somewhere with moving toward account based unlocks. Characters should be, for the most part, replaceable. Our accounts should be the focus of progression and the character just a visual representation of us. That’s why I like Masteries but, Specializations shouldn’t be so long to obtain. Especially when they’ll likely add more in the future.[…]

I completely disagree.

Characters should always be the focus of progression.

I completely disagree. The player should always be the focus of progression, balanced against the progression of the player character…

Could you explain? I’m not sure I understand this statement exactly.

PopeUrban.2578:

DeWolfe.2174:

My thought on it is this, I thought we were finally getting somewhere with moving toward account based unlocks. Characters should be, for the most part, replaceable. Our accounts should be the focus of progression and the character just a visual representation of us. That’s why I like Masteries but, Specializations shouldn’t be so long to obtain. Especially when they’ll likely add more in the future. Say I have a Reaper and wanted to replace the character, how long would it take to roll a fresh character and actually play as a Reaper again? That repetition and duration is what I’m worried about in the future.

I completely disagree.

Characters should always be the focus of progression. Interchangable characters create a balance environment where your developer ends up not really caring when things are broken. “So what if class X can’t do content Y? They can just roll class Z and transfer the rewards”

Not only that, it completely kills any sense of accomplishment or fondness for individual characters. It’s an RPG. Characters are things that are supposed to evolve over time based upon the trials they face and the challenges they overcome.

Certain account based systems that allow you to give alts an advantage are cool. You obviously built this support system. Completely replacing character advancement is not cool at all. At that point you may as well remove characters as a system entirely, and just have a single avatar you can respec at will.

There is literally not point to alts when you remove character based advancement systems, and no reward for advancing those alts.

As someone with over 50 characters, I disagree with you. The system as it’s described does not stimulate growth, it stifles it. It makes it so punishing to want to change and to grow a new character that people won’t change and won’t explore new characters. How many are holding on to old characters just because of irreplaceable crafting recipes? If you need a trait to RP or feel accomplished, than you need to work on your RP. Oh and for balance, this game has two modes of PvP. Every profession and race will always require balance. I, the player, should always be the focus of all design and that includes progression. I, we, are our accounts first and foremost. Characters are a subset of our accounts.

PopeUrban.2578:

Black Box.9312:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Your question doesn’t make any sense. You need the hero points to use the knew specialization, NOT to do any content within the new zones.

A gear treadmill is designed specifically to be able to complete content, only.

PopeUrban.2578:

Because elite specs are optional you do not need to unlock the current elite spec to gain the ability to unlock the next one, or the one after that, and so on.

And further, the elite specs themselves are not purely vertical progression. They are optional horizontal progression. They add options at the expense of taking core weapons trait lines, and utilities. They’re not simply raw buffs that pile on top of the three core specs you’d already have on your character.

You won’t have four specs in the next release, and five after that, creating a system of perpetual upward advancement where you have to do A to be powerful enough to access B.

In stead, you have to do core to unlock core, and from there you choose to persue an elite spec, or stick with a core build. Going forward you choose which elite spec you want to persue, and as the system expands you have an ever broadening range of options for how to actually unlock those specs, since unlike masteries, hero points are not regional, but global systems.

Congratulations, you’ve now returned full circle to the point about how elite specs are optional, not a part of the actual content, and therefore do not add value by being gated because it is irrespective of the content in question.

I rest my case.

Optional does not mean they are not part of the content, or not an advancement system.

it means they are exactly what they were designed to be.

A horizontal progression system

It’s not natural progression. You have to grind up 400 hero points, which is still 40 hero challenges even if you do it all in the jungle. It doesn’t matter if it’s optional, because it still acts as incentive to ignore parts of the game in favor of others. As much as I hate to say it, I honestly would much rather have had Anet just raise the level cap so that I could gather more XP for my elite spec just by taking advantage of whatever content I’d happen to stumble upon.

DeWolfe.2174:

PopeUrban.2578:

DeWolfe.2174:

My thought on it is this, I thought we were finally getting somewhere with moving toward account based unlocks. Characters should be, for the most part, replaceable. Our accounts should be the focus of progression and the character just a visual representation of us. That’s why I like Masteries but, Specializations shouldn’t be so long to obtain. Especially when they’ll likely add more in the future. Say I have a Reaper and wanted to replace the character, how long would it take to roll a fresh character and actually play as a Reaper again? That repetition and duration is what I’m worried about in the future.

I completely disagree.

Characters should always be the focus of progression. Interchangable characters create a balance environment where your developer ends up not really caring when things are broken. “So what if class X can’t do content Y? They can just roll class Z and transfer the rewards”

Not only that, it completely kills any sense of accomplishment or fondness for individual characters. It’s an RPG. Characters are things that are supposed to evolve over time based upon the trials they face and the challenges they overcome.

Certain account based systems that allow you to give alts an advantage are cool. You obviously built this support system. Completely replacing character advancement is not cool at all. At that point you may as well remove characters as a system entirely, and just have a single avatar you can respec at will.

There is literally not point to alts when you remove character based advancement systems, and no reward for advancing those alts.

As someone with over 50 characters, I disagree with you. The system as it’s described does not stimulate growth, it stifles it. It makes it so punishing to want to change and to grow a new character that people won’t change and won’t explore new characters. How many are holding on to old characters just because of irreplaceable crafting recipes? If you need a trait to RP or feel accomplished, than you need to work on your RP. Oh and for balance, this game has two modes of PvP. Every profession and race will always require balance. I, the player, should always be the focus of all design and that includes progression. I, we, are our accounts first and foremost. Characters are a subset of our accounts.

You have over 50 characters specifically because you don’t care about characters as a concept.

Characters are, thematically, individuals. They have individual stories, classes, races, etc. from both a mechanical and a storytelling standpoint. This is a staple theme of RPGs in general. In an RPG, you are your character first and foremost. Whether you actually roleplay as that character in chat or whatever is irrelevant. The core assumption of the game is that the world reacts to you as that character, not as the person controlling it. NPCs do not acknowledge the existance of demigods pulling the strings of groups of adventurers, waypoints do not remember that you “the player” have visited them once before, etc. You character defines the limitations, story, interactions with the world, etc.

Characters in RPGs are designed and intended to be individual entities with individual lists of victories, defeats, and accomplishments as they are generally assumed by the mechanics of the game to be residents of the world in which they live rather than puppets being driven around by an unseen force.

Certain games do treat the player has the central point. Largely multiplayer competitive and less narrative focused games.

This is also why PvP in GW2 is decaupled from character advancement systems, because characters as individual entities are not important in a game mode where the player rather than the character is at the forefront. PvP doesn’t bother to treat your character like a character because it isn’t a game mode about characters.

PvE is absolutely a game mode about characters rather than the person playing them. This isn’t a “roleplaying” standpoint, but a basic fundamental fact of PvE world, encounter, and reward design.

Exciton.8942:

Nausicca.6038:

Exciton.8942:

Nausicca.6038:

fireflyry.7023:

I’ve read some pretty valid and well put points from both sides of the fence, no need to derail it with fictional over-exaggeration and belittlement.

People are already over exaggerating with the HP grind.
Actualy, GW2 is the only MMO that allow you to get your BiS gear BEFORE the expac launch.
No level cap increases. No level locking behind instanced dungeons.
Insta lvl 80 revenant with tomes.

The counterpart is… HP. Consider it as the new XP for your elite spec. What’s wrong with that?

Because it is inherently different from XP prior to 80. You could do pretty much anything you like to earn that XP. This HP requirement forces you to do one thing——map exploration grinding.

So if we need 160 HP to unlock the traits part of our spec… that means 16 challenges. Not 160 or 1600.
16
Where’s the grind again?

Because the requirement is 40HP.

16HP means I probably can do it by exploring two maps. Kinda annoying but still okay.
40HP means I have to it over all 4 maps and there is a large chance that they are located at hard-to-reach positions that require mastery. Then I have to grind mastery and then grind exploration before I can unlock my skills/traits.

40 was if you haven’t done any Hero Challenges. If you want to make a Revenant, tome him to 80 and jump straight into HoT you’ll have to go through 40 challenges to get all of Herald.

PopeUrban.2578:

PvE is absolutely a game mode about characters rather than the person playing them. This isn’t a “roleplaying” standpoint, but a basic fundamental fact of PvE world, encounter, and reward design.

I don’t agree with you here, I’m afraid – all game modes should be about the player – the character is subsidiary – the rewards in a game should be designed around the player account, rather than its transitory characters.

Bettik.4982:

PopeUrban.2578:

PvE is absolutely a game mode about characters rather than the person playing them. This isn’t a “roleplaying” standpoint, but a basic fundamental fact of PvE world, encounter, and reward design.

I don’t agree with you here, I’m afraid – all game modes should be about the player – the character is subsidiary – the rewards in a game should be designed around the player account, rather than it’s transitory characters.

We’ll have to agree to disagree here. You view characters as “transitory” while I view them as central to any given PvE experience. The game mode is about the player only in as much as the player is the “brains” behind the character, but the accomplishments and rewards are thing the character (under the control of the player) earned as part of the world.

There is nothing worse than an RPG that continually encourages people to roll new characters and shelf existing ones.

Bettik.4982:

PopeUrban.2578:

PvE is absolutely a game mode about characters rather than the person playing them. This isn’t a “roleplaying” standpoint, but a basic fundamental fact of PvE world, encounter, and reward design.

I don’t agree with you here, I’m afraid – all game modes should be about the player – the character is subsidiary – the rewards in a game should be designed around the player account, rather than its transitory characters.

You don’t seem to understand how an RPG works. I’m actually curious what RPG, or MMO works this way because I have never experienced it.

I’m with you on this, I went full speed ahead leveling a Necro with the purpose of playing a Reaper on Friday; I even made sure I only unlocked 3 specialization trees so that I wouldn’t waste any on the two I would never use. It’s all good I’ll just play my old main my Guardian since I have zero intention of playing as a Dragon Hunter anyway. I’ve got 2 other characters in their 60s atm with roughly 10 tomes saved up, how well do Engineer and Warrior perform with out their elites; at least my Flamethower Farming build actually appeals to me unlike the dagger warhorn build I couldn’t stand as a Necro (just to get to the build I actually was interested in), I had zero interest in Berserker as well so is the GS Warrior Phalanx build still competitive?

Kal Spiro.9745:

Bettik.4982:

PopeUrban.2578:

PvE is absolutely a game mode about characters rather than the person playing them. This isn’t a “roleplaying” standpoint, but a basic fundamental fact of PvE world, encounter, and reward design.

I don’t agree with you here, I’m afraid – all game modes should be about the player – the character is subsidiary – the rewards in a game should be designed around the player account, rather than its transitory characters.

You don’t seem to understand how an RPG works. I’m actually curious what RPG, or MMO works this way because I have never experienced it.

Really? I login to PvE as a Ranger. I earn rewards that contribute to both my character and my account. I go to PvP, I’m now a Druid. I also earn rewards that contribute to both. How is this strange…?

Bettik.4982:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Bettik.4982:

PopeUrban.2578:

PvE is absolutely a game mode about characters rather than the person playing them. This isn’t a “roleplaying” standpoint, but a basic fundamental fact of PvE world, encounter, and reward design.

I don’t agree with you here, I’m afraid – all game modes should be about the player – the character is subsidiary – the rewards in a game should be designed around the player account, rather than its transitory characters.

You don’t seem to understand how an RPG works. I’m actually curious what RPG, or MMO works this way because I have never experienced it.

Really? I login to PvE as a Ranger. I earn rewards that contribute to both my character and my account. I go to PvP, I’m now a Druid. I also earn rewards that contribute to both. How is this strange…?

But it’s not ABOUT your account, you earn rewards you are able to put toward your account but your experience is about your character.

I don’t have any problem with having to do stuff to unlock stuff. It just make sense.

Except: I was able to play Revenant and Reaper 3 times before HoT launch, and I could clearly see the progressive development in those. Since I was allowed to play Scrapper only 1 time, I couldn’t judge development in it. Now I would need to play weeks HOPING Scrapper is ok for me, BEFORE I actually can use it? At least allow people a couple more beta weekends for the less tested Elite Specs, so we can really make our choices before spending the points.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Bettik.4982:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Bettik.4982:

PopeUrban.2578:

PvE is absolutely a game mode about characters rather than the person playing them. This isn’t a “roleplaying” standpoint, but a basic fundamental fact of PvE world, encounter, and reward design.

I don’t agree with you here, I’m afraid – all game modes should be about the player – the character is subsidiary – the rewards in a game should be designed around the player account, rather than its transitory characters.

You don’t seem to understand how an RPG works. I’m actually curious what RPG, or MMO works this way because I have never experienced it.

Really? I login to PvE as a Ranger. I earn rewards that contribute to both my character and my account. I go to PvP, I’m now a Druid. I also earn rewards that contribute to both. How is this strange…?

But it’s not ABOUT your account, you earn rewards you are able to put toward your account but your experience is about your character.

I don’t agree. It’s all about me as a player – not my character…

Bettik.4982:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Bettik.4982:

PopeUrban.2578:

PvE is absolutely a game mode about characters rather than the person playing them. This isn’t a “roleplaying” standpoint, but a basic fundamental fact of PvE world, encounter, and reward design.

I don’t agree with you here, I’m afraid – all game modes should be about the player – the character is subsidiary – the rewards in a game should be designed around the player account, rather than its transitory characters.

You don’t seem to understand how an RPG works. I’m actually curious what RPG, or MMO works this way because I have never experienced it.

Really? I login to PvE as a Ranger. I earn rewards that contribute to both my character and my account. I go to PvP, I’m now a Druid. I also earn rewards that contribute to both. How is this strange…?

Don’t argue, you’re not entitled to your opinion. It simply isn’t possible that you view things differently.

PopeUrban.2578:

You have over 50 characters specifically because you don’t care about characters as a concept.

Characters are, thematically, individuals. They have individual stories, classes, races, etc. from both a mechanical and a storytelling standpoint

For one thing, your view of a character is extremely limited as only the actual human experience is what matters. And, our experiences are filtered and altered by the characters we chose to represent us in the moment. Thus, I have that many because they all have themes created to go with content and my desires at said time. Do you have characters with names and appearances for holidays like Halloween and Wintersday??? You probably do not. Though some of us are creative and like to make the most of such times. The cost of a character should not dissuade a player from exploring such experiences. That’s why these specializations should be account unlocks as traits used to be. Also, the issue may be compounded in the future if this precedent of having to unlock everything first before the new specialization. How long will it take to obtain a new specialization on top of the core profession and previous specialization? To sit there and think, “Hey, wouldn’t it be great to run a Sylvari (shiny new specialization) in this content!” but, the thought of having to spend 120 hours to roll and level stops a player from doing so. To me, that many hours would be extremely prohibitive and well into the “oh kitten that” time frame. Diminishing and stifling the creativity and number of characters created. Which, in the end, would limit how colorful and grand Tyria could be.

DeWolfe.2174:

PopeUrban.2578:

You have over 50 characters specifically because you don’t care about characters as a concept.

Characters are, thematically, individuals. They have individual stories, classes, races, etc. from both a mechanical and a storytelling standpoint

For one thing, your view of a character is extremely limited as only the actual human experience is what matters. And, our experiences are filtered and altered by the characters we chose to represent us in the moment. Thus, I have that many because they all have themes created to go with content and my desires at said time. Do you have characters with names and appearances for holidays like Halloween and Wintersday??? You probably do not. Though some of us are creative and like to make the most of such times. The cost of a character should not dissuade a player from exploring such experiences. That’s why these specializations should be account unlocks as traits used to be. Also, the issue may be compounded in the future if this precedent of having to unlock everything first before the new specialization. How long will it take to obtain a new specialization on top of the core profession and previous specialization? To sit there and think, “Hey, wouldn’t it be great to run a Sylvari (shiny new specialization) in this content!” but, the thought of having to spend 120 hours to roll and level stops a player from doing so. To me, that many hours would be extremely prohibitive and well into the “oh kitten that” time frame. Diminishing and stifling the creativity and number of characters created. Which, in the end, would limit how colorful and grand Tyria could be.

You’re entitiled to your opinion, obviously, but that’s exactly what I’m trying to address.

You don’t value characters as mechanical entities. You value them as sets of clothing and weapons. You’re not interested in what they achieved individually but rather what they can do for your efficiency or roleplaying as a player, as you interpretation of advancement is that of you, the player, making gains, and the characters are all simply tools to that end.

You created some holiday characters because they allow you to play dress up, but you’re not really concerned with these characters having any kind of footprint or journey through the world.

I don’t agree with that viewpoint as I believe it’s important that characters themselves have internal sets of accomplishments. The characters are the heroes, not me, I’m just the driver. My guardian killing a dragon doesn’t mean my thief deserves a trophy for killing a dragon, as as far as the world is concerned, that thief never killed that dragon.

It’s a matter of taste really. You prefer to pretend your characters have accomplished things. I prefer that my characters actually accomplished things. You’re not wrong, I simply don’t share your viewpoint.

Morfedel.4165:

I have officially lost interest in this thread. Reading a laundry list of useless ire is accomplishing nothing. Off to other threads. GLHF!!!

I imagine ArenaNet is reading it laughing at how with HoT they are really pulling one over on the more casual players. I’m sure if you hounded them they would probably refund your money for the expansion at this stage but I don’t expect them to change their view. It’s clear they no longer care about the casual player base and their aim is to maximize profits off items like gem store XP boosters by providing mastery’s that require XP and reinforcing the need for those mastery’s by tieing the Elite Spec unlock to them (you have to have the mastery’s to get to certain points in the map where those beefy 10-pint hero challenges will be and you’ll have two a do a lot of HoT map competition as well). Want to do HoT casually? You can meet your Elite Spec sometime in 2016. Meanwhile the group you play with are on-line 24/7 grinding away for theirs as you go out of sight and out of mind. I believe Heart of Thorns is an expansion designed to flush the casual players from the game or to push them out of the PvE part of the game.

Whoever set the rules for Elite Unlock

• must have all core specialization trait lines maxed
• must spend 60 hero point just to unlock (no traits get unlocked with those 60 points, that’s just to make the panel available with zero elite traits)
• No ability to use Spirit Shards or other items to contribute to Elite Spec

Whoever set this up hates the casual GW2 player. Their new mission is to make you give up the things you love outside the game to grind. It’s no different from other MMOs but it is a very different message than what they were preaching in their pre-launch 2012 manifesto. It signifies they have sold out the casual player to the hardcore player demands.

We’re getting off point here the discussion is about hero points unlocking the Elite specialization and how we won’t get access to it until at least half way through the maps, partial unlocks do not count as in my opinion half of an Reaper is like playing half a class.

I have all of the skills on all of my characters along with map completion on all of them, so this won’t negatively impact me personally, but I can why others might be a bit irate – especially given some of the skill and trait lines in the base game are utter trash.

I am assuming that what CJ meant is NOT that players would have to buy the new skills before opening up the elite traits. The only reason I’m even contemplating taking Daredevil on my thief is for the staff dps and the traits. Not being able to buy the trait line out to the Grandmasters would probably kitten me off a bit.

HOT will not be balanced around the hardcore or the capsule player,it will be balanced around earning money.The majority will always prevail as that’s who pays the bills.

Ardid.7203:

I don’t have any problem with having to do stuff to unlock stuff. It just make sense.

Except: I was able to play Revenant and Reaper 3 times before HoT launch, and I could clearly see the progressive development in those. Since I was allowed to play Scrapper only 1 time, I couldn’t judge development in it. Now I would need to play weeks HOPING Scrapper is ok for me, BEFORE I actually can use it? At least allow people a couple more beta weekends for the less tested Elite Specs, so we can really make our choices before spending the points.

Since they aren’t going to push back a release at this point, after Friday may I suggest you go to PvP, where it will be unlocked, to try out the Scrapper, either on the golems or in actual PvP.

Pezz.4758:

please dont take this as rage or hate or anything but i gotta vent im a little ….meh.

So i main necro, followed the scrapper hype all through the info releases. After trying it on the beta weekend i was hooked. I had a partially leveled engy, so i finished it, grinded out all his skills, all his exotics, some ascended, crafting , bought skins went HAM.

now i find out, to even play the elite spec, i have to grind ANOTHER at least 170 points.

So doing the math, thats either basically doing map complete now in 3 days to find enough to unlock it. OR waiting till HoT, where they are 10 points each. BUT assuming 5-10 per map like currents maps, i will be half way through HoT open world content BEFORE even being able to use the spec properly.

Like i said im not raging but i cant lie, kinda killed the hype for release when i know its just going to be a grind to even START playing.

“Play how you want” ha, ya right.

Be glad you aren’t fond of, nor playing a Daredevil. If they lack hero points, all they get is a +1 dodge at the start of a fight. At least as Reaper you have FULL access to all your F1 skills. Daredevils have it the WORST of all the espec, from every aspect possible.

Silverbolt.2301:

Pezz.4758:

please dont take this as rage or hate or anything but i gotta vent im a little ….meh.

So i main necro, followed the scrapper hype all through the info releases. After trying it on the beta weekend i was hooked. I had a partially leveled engy, so i finished it, grinded out all his skills, all his exotics, some ascended, crafting , bought skins went HAM.

now i find out, to even play the elite spec, i have to grind ANOTHER at least 170 points.

So doing the math, thats either basically doing map complete now in 3 days to find enough to unlock it. OR waiting till HoT, where they are 10 points each. BUT assuming 5-10 per map like currents maps, i will be half way through HoT open world content BEFORE even being able to use the spec properly.

Like i said im not raging but i cant lie, kinda killed the hype for release when i know its just going to be a grind to even START playing.

“Play how you want” ha, ya right.

Be glad you aren’t fond of, nor playing a Daredevil. If they lack hero points, all they get is a +1 dodge at the start of a fight. At least as Reaper you have FULL access to all your F1 skills. Daredevils have it the WORST of all the espec, from every aspect possible.

I would think that Heralds will have it the worst, they can’t mix and match utilities. So they either have to unlock everything or run around without any utilities, Anet has not stated anything to say otherwise.

I have been here since before core game launch. I have 17 lv 80 toons. I spend almost all my time in WvW. I know I can earn the elites there, but doing the math leads me to the conclusion that I simply need to find another game. We have been asking forever for hard numbers on hero points needed for unlock. I bought the ultimate edition despite the lack of info because I trusted A-Net to be reasonable. I was wrong.

Daddar.5971:

I have been here since before core game launch. I have 17 lv 80 toons. I spend almost all my time in WvW. I know I can earn the elites there, but doing the math leads me to the conclusion that I simply need to find another game. We have been asking forever for hard numbers on hero points needed for unlock. I bought the ultimate edition despite the lack of info because I trusted A-Net to be reasonable. I was wrong.

No offence but what ever gave you the inkling that they were reasonable ? Especially being a WvW player. If you were a PvE player I could sort of understand because they get catered to left and right but WvW ? When have the ever been reasonable with us ?

Very true, actually. Either they knew this number (400) all along and chose to withhold it in order to wring the maximum number of pre-orders out of the current player base…. or they just pulled this number out of some orifice yesterday. Either way, it’s bad.

Well some of us are still hoping there is someone reasonable at Anet that is watching these forums. We still have a day here’s hoping they at least lower the cost to something that will be a happy medium for all.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Morfedel.4165:

I have officially lost interest in this thread. Reading a laundry list of useless ire is accomplishing nothing. Off to other threads. GLHF!!!

I imagine ArenaNet is reading it laughing at how with HoT they are really pulling one over on the more casual players. I’m sure if you hounded them they would probably refund your money for the expansion at this stage but I don’t expect them to change their view. It’s clear they no longer care about the casual player base and their aim is to maximize profits off items like gem store XP boosters by providing mastery’s that require XP and reinforcing the need for those mastery’s by tieing the Elite Spec unlock to them (you have to have the mastery’s to get to certain points in the map where those beefy 10-pint hero challenges will be and you’ll have two a do a lot of HoT map competition as well). Want to do HoT casually? You can meet your Elite Spec sometime in 2016. Meanwhile the group you play with are on-line 24/7 grinding away for theirs as you go out of sight and out of mind. I believe Heart of Thorns is an expansion designed to flush the casual players from the game or to push them out of the PvE part of the game.

Whoever set the rules for Elite Unlock

• must have all core specialization trait lines maxed
• must spend 60 hero point just to unlock (no traits get unlocked with those 60 points, that’s just to make the panel available with zero elite traits)
• No ability to use Spirit Shards or other items to contribute to Elite Spec

Whoever set this up hates the casual GW2 player. Their new mission is to make you give up the things you love outside the game to grind. It’s no different from other MMOs but it is a very different message than what they were preaching in their pre-launch 2012 manifesto. It signifies they have sold out the casual player to the hardcore player demands.

I can’t see that being their intention. Hardcore players are only a minority of the playerbase. You go too hardcore, you wind up like Wildstar.

I think each hp spot should be worth ten points

You only need 60 points to play the Specialization,is that too much ?

Swagger.1459:

I think each hp spot should be worth ten points

Each Hero Challenge in Heart of Thorns, and the WvW option for Heart of Thorns, is worth 10 hero points…

Ironically, it costs more hero challenges to unlock a standard elite specialization in core Tyria than it does to unlock an elite specialization in Heart of Thorns,and the elite also gives you a set of 6 utility skills and cosmetic items.

Diak Atoli.2085:

Swagger.1459:

I think each hp spot should be worth ten points

Each Hero Challenge in Heart of Thorns, and the WvW option for Heart of Thorns, is worth 10 hero points…

Ironically, it costs more hero challenges to unlock a standard elite specialization in core Tyria than it does to unlock an elite specialization in Heart of Thorns,and the elite also gives you a set of 6 utility skills and cosmetic items.

There’s nothing ironic about having expansion progression mechanics be more effectively progressed inside the actual expansion.

Also, this isn’t how you use the word Ironic, unless you’re singing an Alanis Morissette song that doesn’t understand how to use the word Ironic.

Diak Atoli.2085:

Swagger.1459:

I think each hp spot should be worth ten points

Each Hero Challenge in Heart of Thorns, and the WvW option for Heart of Thorns, is worth 10 hero points…

Ironically, it costs more hero challenges to unlock a standard elite specialization in core Tyria than it does to unlock an elite specialization in Heart of Thorns,and the elite also gives you a set of 6 utility skills and cosmetic items.

Oh I’m aware. I’m saying each one, on any map, should be worth 10!

I’m a great problem solver!