Guild Wars 2

Disregarding the fact that the real reason is they were invented by game designers who gave much higher priority to what they wanted to create than to what makes biological sense I’ve been trying to decide how the sylvari fit into the Pale Trees lifecycle.

It doesn’t make sense from a biological perspective to commit a large amount of time, effort and resources to creating a race of ‘offspring’ who can’t reproduce themselves and seem to serve no purpose for the Pale Tree. So on that basis they have to do something and I’ve come up with 2 possibilites.

1) Seeds, or spores. There are many forms of life with multiple, very different stages, including ones which alternate between a mobile form and a fixed one. We know the sylvari can’t reproduce sexually but it’s possible that given enough time and the right conditions they might either produce seeds like the one the Pale Tree came from themselves or change into a form that will. This would explain why there was no sign of a tree like the Pale Tree when Ronan found the seeds and it also fits with the behaviour we’ve seen from the sylvari – they emerge from their pods and are immediately driven to spread out, explore and seek new places. Not that dissimilar from the ways seeds of non-sentient species are scattered by the wind in the hopes that some will land where they can grow.

2) A defense mechanism. We know the Pale Tree is aware of her surroundings, and aware of the wider world through the Dream of Dreams (even before the sylvari appeared) so she would be aware of the threat posed by the dragons, and the various native dangers of the Tarnished Coast. Maybe in order to protect herself and before producing seeds which would need a lot of time and therefore a safe, stable area of the world to grow she produced the sylvari first to create that.

This would explain why so many of them seem driven to fight the dragons and other dangers. Even the ones who aren’t are making the area safer by building up their city, taming and farming the surrounding area and establishing good relations with the other races.

Of course the one problem with both of these is that surely the sylvari would be aware of it if that was the case. But I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Many of them don’t seem to fully understand their own purpose, they just have a feeling from their Dream that they MUST do certain things or go to certain places which is strong enough that they can’t ignore it.

Danikat.8537:

Disregarding the fact that the real reason is they were invented by game designers who gave much higher priority to what they wanted to create than to what makes biological sense

And thank goodness for that. I like playing a game with magic and undead and ghosts and creatures made from foliage thankyouverymuch.

Don’t take this the wrong way, but I think your argument is fundamentally flawed.

After all, humans reproduce, to reproduce, and by the above logic, it is a pointless endeavor. Whether it is or not is an entirely different philosophical discussion.

Sylvari ‘produce’ to increase knowledge, the more sylvari that are knocking around, the more knowledge they attain as a race. You could argue that the sylvari way has more of a point to it. It also ties into the ‘defense mechanism’ theory (which I like btw), knowledge = power.

As for the point that they would be aware of it, that’s not necessarily true. Animals and humans reproduce because that is what they are programmed to do. Yes it may seem like a conscious decision to have kids and it usually is, but at the end of the day, sexual arousal is there for a reason, and that reason is to encourage reproduction. We only know that this because of scientific studies, but I’m willing to bet those dogs going at it in the local park aren’t aware of this fact.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Danikat.8537:

Disregarding the fact that the real reason is they were invented by game designers who gave much higher priority to what they wanted to create than to what makes biological sense

And thank goodness for that. I like playing a game with magic and undead and ghosts and creatures made from foliage thankyouverymuch.

So do I.

I’m not suggesting it’s a bad thing, I just wanted to clarify right from the start that I’m aware that’s the case and this is an entirely hypothetical discussion of how things might work rather than insisting there has to be a biological explaination in order for them to exist.

Hel.6340:

Don’t take this the wrong way, but I think your argument is fundamentally flawed.

After all, humans reproduce, to reproduce, and by the above logic, it is a pointless endeavor. Whether it is or not is an entirely different philosophical discussion.

Sylvari ‘produce’ to increase knowledge, the more sylvari that are knocking around, the more knowledge they attain as a race. You could argue that the sylvari way has more of a point to it. It also ties into the ‘defense mechanism’ theory (which I like btw), knowledge = power.

As for the point that they would be aware of it, that’s not necessarily true. Animals and humans reproduce because that is what they are programmed to do. Yes it may seem like a conscious decision to have kids and it usually is, but at the end of the day, sexual arousal is there for a reason, and that reason is to encourage reproduction. We only know that this because of scientific studies, but I’m willing to bet those dogs going at it in the local park aren’t aware of this fact.

Humans reproduce because an individual can’t live forever so it’s the only way to preserve our genes. The important difference between humans and sylvari is humans can reasonably assume that their children will be able to have children of their own and carry on the chain.

Of course there are exceptions, nothing in life is perfect, their children might not survive, or they might be infertile, they might choose not to have children or never get the chance. But you’ve got a better chance of carrying on your bloodline than living forever.

That’s not the case with the sylvari. As far as we know none of them can have children. They certainly can’t reproduce sexually, with each other or with other races (the devs have said so). So as a form of survival that’s a dead end. The sylvari are born, they live for however long they can and then they die and the chain comes to an end.

Unless they can reproduce via another method which we haven’t yet seen. The Pale Tree is over 250 years old and has only started producing sylvari in the last 25 years so I think it’s possible that even the firstborn aren’t fully mature yet and might be capable of reproduction later, hence the seed theory.

It’s been stated by Ree that only the Pale Tree can give birth to more Sylvari. As there were already seeds for the Pale Tree and more, I doubt that there is a need to make the Sylvari as more seeds. Something is already capable of making pale seeds. If creating the Sylvari was to make more seeds there would be a hell of a lot more trees around and they would have appeared before in some form because there were seeds long before anything Sylvari appeared. I say there would be way more because the current Pale Tree has pumped out a huge amount of plant babies.

Being for defense isn’t a bad theory but it could be equally “because she could.”

Sylvari are the mean chosen by the Pale Tree to fight the Dragons, so they are surely a defensive mechanism. Like a gall or a resin drop, just “slightly” more sophisticated.

I think they are not true “seeds” (because we don’t see other Pale Trees germinating from their graves) , but they could be spore carriers. The “mushroom cap” is the first hint. And IIRC, it is said that they “smell good”, so they could scatter spores or pollen.

Alternatively, the reproduction system of the Tree could be something not yet seen (maybe something as simple as seeds created from flowers, like in RL).

Sylvari are described, from a design concept, as the Pale Tree’s fruit. They fit into the Pale Tree in this way, regardless of any other shortcomings (such as sylvari not being known to become more trees).

I understand that this is a spartan and unimaginative comment, but it’s really what we have to work with. For whatever unknown (and currently irrelevant) reason or reasons plural, the sylvari are sentient fruit.

The pale tree is stationary. The sylvari are created as drones to allow the pale tree to interact with the world. It’s not much different than ants or bees. They can’t reproduce on their own either, but the queen keeps churning them out. Workers, soldiers…whatever is needed to reach out and meet the needs of the colony.

What produces the seeds that make the pale trees themselves is the bigger question.

The same reason we produce. To carry on. I doubt it’s a conscious, well thought out effort. We really don’t know “why” we exist and that’s a fundamental of philosophy. We can only identify benefits to doing it. So we can’t reasonably expect a whole lot more than that when examining the pale tree. So defense is one. Growth is another. Self betterment. Etc.

Rehashed Jibe Tube.7102:

The pale tree is stationary. The sylvari are created as drones to allow the pale tree to interact with the world. It’s not much different than ants or bees. They can’t reproduce on their own either, but the queen keeps churning them out. Workers, soldiers…whatever is needed to reach out and meet the needs of the colony.

What produces the seeds that make the pale trees themselves is the bigger question.

Actually a very good analogy.

Hel.6340:

Actually a very good analogy.

Agreed. That’s pretty insightful.

Ba air.1372:

It’s been stated by Ree that only the Pale Tree can give birth to more Sylvari.

We know this isn’t true. Malyck did not come from the Pale Tree.

I think you misunderstand the point bluejay. The point is simply individual Sylvari can’t reproduce, only the trees can.

I wonder if dried Sylvari would be good in a smoker. What would Sylvari pollen tea taste like? Maybe they can be smoked like tobacco.

bluejay.6739:

Ba air.1372:

It’s been stated by Ree that only the Pale Tree can give birth to more Sylvari.

We know this isn’t true. Malyck did not come from the Pale Tree.

A Pale Tree. He came from a Pale Tree. Not the same one, but a Pale Tree.

Perhaps Pale trees spawn Sylvari to spread across the world to look for a suitable place for the the Pale trees to plant some baby seeds? xD.

I’m almost of the mind that the Pale Tree’s are in some way a creation and therefore there isn’t necessarily a ‘natural’ logic to their production of Sylvari… I mean, why would there be a ton of seeds in a cave? (Unless the Sylvari turn into seeds in time, in which case I envisage a very sad group of Sylvari huddling together in a cave and then turning into seeds )

The seeds could have been put there for someone to find. The problem I have with the last stage of Sylvari being a pale tree is that shouldn’t the Sylvari have completely overrun Tyria by now (since it is implied the trees could match the dragon cycles)?

I really like that idea of the sylvari being driven by their basic nature to move out from the tree and explore. I think Rehashed’s reasoning makes more sense than the seed/spore idea, but at any rate it makes a lot of sense to me. The Pale Tree is partly an independent organism who wants to ensure her own survival (and the Elder Dragons are a significant threat to that!). At the same time though, she’s a sentience deeply (and literally) connected to Tyria as a land. That makes her like a Gaia/Earth Mother figure, concerned for Tyria’s survival because in some ways she is Tyria. Who else will speak for the land itself?

In this sense sylvari are a way for the Pale Tree to be able to see, learn about and interact with the world beyond her sheltered Grove, as Rehashed says, but they’re also extensions of her consciousness. Sylvari who repeat the lessons of the Tablet are spreading the Pale Tree’s message around, ‘speaking for the planet’ to other races.

I think you’ve missed the point of the Pale Tree itself. Individual Sylvari are not meant to reproduce because there is no point of them too in their nature. The tree is the mother and makes every Sylvari related to each other, which creates an almost unparalleled sense of companionship that isn’t available in ANY other race of Tyria.

And most importantly, the Pale Tree lives through each and every Sylvari. In other words, every Sylvari that you see walking around is quite literally an extension of the Pale Tree (Similar to arms, legs, a brain to humans and others). That is why when Sylvari die, or more rather their time ‘expires’, EVERYTHING they have learned and experienced is given back to the Pale Tree; and she shares this knowledge with all her Sylvari children. (A close comparison, which Naruto fans will understand, the way he trains his clones and learns everything they do).

So in other words, when great and experienced Sylvari, such as Caithe from Destiny’s Edge die and return to the dream of dreams, the Sylvari race’s intelligence will grow tenfold because they will instantly learn at birth what Caithe experienced in her entire life. Which is an extremely scary thought because that can easily propel them to be the most advanced race in Tyria in a few more decades. Imagine if every human learned the things Albert Einstein did in a few days of birth. Amazing!

So after reading over the lore again, and oddly, after giving “Fear Not This Night” a listen, I have a slightly different take it.
I think defense is a strong reason for creation (one I’ll touch on more) but I think Honor and Respect are a important reason for the Sylvari from The Grove. I’ll also take a stab as reproduction.

Main: Its never explained when the Pale Tree of The Grove gained sentience. It is noted that she knows who Ventari is and understands the teachings. (Hell, Ventari is IN THE DREAM during the Sylvari introduction, as a centaur I might add. The Pale Tree completely grasps who he was.) Who you don’t see is Ronan. Ronan isn’t even mentioned (at least not that I know of.) We don’t know if the Pale Tree knows who Ronan is or is aware that she was planted atop the graves of his family. Or better yet, whether or not the latter is of any importance.

What is known is that the dragons started appearing and causing havoc. From races prepping for war to simple migration, I think the Sylvari were summoned as a presence to protect Ventari’s grave, as well as protect, preserve, and honor the gift of life and of his teachings. With the Asura to the west, and the Quaggan, Hylek, Krait, Trolls, and even Tengu to the north, there was reason to protect the territory. Whats more, several of the first born were given a Wyld Hunt related to Orr itself, so the Pale Tree of The Grove was well aware of the disturbances which would prompt protection (the Sylvari) from threats coming from the south of The Grove.
Side Note: We can assume if the Pale Tree of The Grove is aware of her surroundings, especially Orr, then we can assume other “pale trees” are also aware. This would prompt them releasing Sylvari into the world and, hopefully, into action. After listening to the song “Fear Not This Night”, one wonders if this is meant as a song the Pale Tree actually sings to the Sylvari. It would explain the compassion and openness which the Sylvari of The Grove possess, in comparison with the cautious nature of non-Grove Sylvari.

Defense: As previously stated, defense (or survival) is a strong reason for a Sylvari presence. The Pale Tree of The Grove, as well as other “pale trees”, started generated Sylvari most likely in response to the dragons. The bit I mentioned about Ventari and his teachings is specific to The Grove.

Reproduction: As I see it, reproduction among the Sylvari of The Grove does not serve a purpose, thus it isn’t possible. I can only assume that a sexual connection would provide a deeper link among the parties involved: the Sylvari and the Pale Tree. What hasn’t been touched on is whether or not reproduction is possible among the Grove Sylvari and non-Grove Sylvari. If my hypothetical link exists, such a coupling would result in the possibility for two Pale Trees to tap into each others’ “Dreams”, thus combining and expanding the entire well of knowledge and experience. This would also make offspring from two different Sylvari (Grove and non-Grove) able to be given information from two separate “Dreams”.

Well that’s all I got for this post. If you made it here legitimately, congratulations! You’re done! ^-^

I think the dragons will use up much of the magic in the world and begin hibernation only to awaken in the future when magic levels have increased to a certain level. I think the pale tree is also linked to this phenomenom. Once the magic level is lowered to a certain point, the dragons will hibernate and the pale tree will wither and die. The remaining silvarii will become seeds for the next generation of pale trees. Most seeds will be lost, a few will survive until the trees are needed again.

DarcShriek.5829:

I think the dragons will use up much of the magic in the world and begin hibernation only to awaken in the future when magic levels have increased to a certain level. I think the pale tree is also linked to this phenomenom. Once the magic level is lowered to a certain point, the dragons will hibernate and the pale tree will wither and die. The remaining silvarii will become seeds for the next generation of pale trees. Most seeds will be lost, a few will survive until the trees are needed again.

Even though this is a cool idea, I am pretty sure we have no proof of anything similar to sylvari existing before now.

Narcemus.1348:

The seeds to create two sylvari producing trees came from somewhere. The fact that there is at lease one other tree producing sylvari is pretty solid evidence that the current generation is not the first.

Is it? In the last dragon awakening we know for a fact that it was 5 races (Jotun, Seer, Mursaat, Dwarf, and Forgotten) against 6 Elder Dragons. A much more popular theory is that the Pale Trees and sylvari are a recent development by the world of Tyria to fight against the Elder Dragons. Whatever you may think the Pale Trees could be a number of things. Evolutions of the living and moving plantlife of Tyria, regular seeds that were enchanted with some magic by an unknown individual, the experiments of an oucasted asura that ended with his experiments killing him before he could tell anyone. There is a number of ways things could go in this world, but because of the past that we have read over, it seems unlikely that Sylvari existed before now.

DarcShriek may be on to something.

/theorycraft

Tree seeds come from fruit or nuts of the tree. If the Pale Tree had a fruit or nuts, it would be the Sylvari. perhaps the seeds are the heart of a sylvari. and perhaps tyria encounted sylvari in the past but didn’t recognize them becasue they weren’t grown to resemble humans but rather any of the other plant like beings in the forest.

Yes, there are many other plant-like beings within Tyria. There are oakenhearts (and their many variations), Thorn Stalkers, Aloe plants, and so on and so forth. But none of these plants have ever shown any type of sapience (I hope I’m using the word correctly).

Not that anyone noticed. but keep in mind the ’fruit" of the pale tree has an incredible capacity for violence and aggression. Many of the customs they have adopted that display their sapience were adopted becasue they are trying to imitate huamns and because they are trying to fit in and adopt customs from other races. if they grew trying to imitate other plant-like beings, they would be nigh indistinguishable. Maybe just better at killing. And keep in mind, anything highly aggressive that kills people is seen as beastlike and stupid. Like the Charr were.

Yes, but here is one thing that I would like to point out. There is at least 1 more pale tree that has, that we know of, no contact with humanity. Interstingly enough, though, the Sylvari from this tree have the same form as the sylvari from the most well known Pale Tree.

That we know of… :P

Narcemus.1348:

Yes, but here is one thing that I would like to point out. There is at least 1 more pale tree that has, that we know of, no contact with humanity. Interstingly enough, though, the Sylvari from this tree have the same form as the sylvari from the most well known Pale Tree.

In other words, if Ronan hadn’t accidentally found the seeds, the existance of Sylvari might not be known. I’m going to stay with my position that this is not the first generation of Sylvari.

You can stick with your theory all you like, and please don’t stop because of me. I am only saying that this is a theory and nothing more because there is no solid lore background to give any evidence that Sylvari and Pale Trees have existed before.

Not arguing that this is the case, but an observation: if sylvari were in some way seeds of the Pale Tree being spread out across Tyria (even if for something other than growing a new Tree, which seems unlikely) then the fact that sylvari are immune to dragon corruption is a very good defence mechanism!

But, why bi-lateral symmetry? That form is TOTALLY foreign to a plant——of any size, shape or sapience. Why not a centaur-shape or a bird?? or???? In fact, the most “logical” appearance for a Sylvari is that of it’s parent. Were I designing them (and ain’t you glad I didn’t), they’d have looked like mobile bushes, with strong Ranger and Elementalist skillsets (and average or poor skillsets for other classes). Wouldn’t the “risen” have loved walking through the woodlands then!! ( Have a L80 Sylvari Ele that I love playing!!—————-but still)

Balsa Micoil

Perhaps the tree created the Sylvari once it recognized the threat, not for its own sake but the worlds.

Both the Sylvari and the Pale Tree(as far as we can tell) display traits of nobility, sacrifice, and love. Because of this I would take the leap of saying that the Pale Trees reasons are not entirely selfish.

I don’t think we should look at the Pale Tree as we would an organism in real life, in this world animals frequently display very selfless traits(the Norn spirit animals can serve as an example)

I could be way off here, but I think people put way to much emphasis on the dragons when it comes to sylvari. Part of this is because of the way the tutorial is presented. As a race, the sylvari have no more to do with the dragons than any other race. The sylvari were not created to defend the tree against the dragons.

Lore wise, the player character and caithe are the only 2 sylvari who’s wylde hunt is to kill the dragons. treherns was to cleans orr. The rest of the sylvari are there to do something else entirely.

The sylvari fill the needs of the pale tree in any way needed. I don’t think they were created for any single purpose. The tree needs something, a sylvari is created, and it’s dream grooms it for the task at hand.

I’m pretty sure they will exsist as a race on tyria long after the Dragon threat has come and gone. Still filling the needs of the pale tree as they arise.

Alright, I do want to point out that the Pale Tree claims that she doesn’t control the dream at all. That the dream is it’s own object, and she merely watches over it. Now, I realize that what I am saying comes directly from the Pale Tree, and there is no objective way to be certain that what she says is true. Still, at this point in time I choose to take this as the only known situation at the moment, but when the situation changes (like a Glint situation) I will be glad to change my opinions.

I think that is significant Narcemus. It implies that the Pale Tree is as much a part of the Dream as the sylvari are. I think her consciousness is part of the same mystery that the sylvari and everything else connected to them is – the Pale Tree herself doesn’t necessarily know what she is or where she comes from.