Guild Wars 2

On aggression, I was going more off of the way in which spells are performed rather than the meaning of the word alone. I would agree on some of what you said though.

I agree on the Ritualists, I merely put Dwayna in there because of the inclusion of large amounts of preservation magic type spells in with Ritualists. But yes, according to lore we only know of reverence to Grenth.

I would have to disagree with you Konig on your opinion of the destruction, though. The act of taking the raw earth and re-shaping it into your minions is, in my mind fracturing it from it’s natural form and re-shaping it to your own needs. The same can be said with what we know of the DSD and his minions. I don’t see why this would be any different from the Dragon’s Tooth skill or Water Trident. It is taking elements out of there proper… erm, well, element… and re-shaping them to meet your own needs. Primordus and the DSD do this, from what we know. I would say that Kralkatorrik is vastly different in this because of one fact. When re-shaping the elements, they do not change in nature too vastly. The stone is still stone, fire is still fire, water is still water, it is just re-formed or re-shaped. Kralkatorrik doesn’t do this. With his act of creating the Dragonbrand he changed the very fabric of the land. Grass is now crystal, iron shattered/melted. From what we can see the water inside the veins of everything that was living in the Dragonbrand was transformed into crystal. No form of destruction magic can do that, that we know of. This speaks more towards the restructuring of reality that we can see from Mesmerism/denial than destruction to me.

Gandarel.5091:

Just because Balthasar is associated with fire, it makes him primordus?

What kind of power would you give to your villains in which case you can’t force out a connection with a god or a dragon? Proves nothing at all.

Gods cover the elements + other basical things like knowledge, illusions. So gods cover almost everything. It would be hard to find something which is not related to any of these…

It’s like saying Queen Jennah is the Emperor of Cantha, because they both rule a nation.

No. Nothing I’ve posted indicates any of this at all. Going back to my previous example, of Dr. Jekel and Mr. Hyde, they don’t need to be similar in any significant way in order to be the same. And going back to the post you quoted, nothing is “proven” or considered “proof”. Only “possibility” exists.

@Narcemus:

I was going off of how Aggression spells work to. Life stealing, empowerment through sacrificing one’s own life, giving “life” to corpses, bringing pain or benefits upon action. These are all things that are focused upon movement and being proactive. Of course we cannot tell the fine details of how the magic work, but Aggression seems to be effectively the “magic of movement.”

Regarding how Primordus and the DSD make minions – I’m thinking of the spawning pools making destroyers. They slowly form destroyers, and to me with the appearance of Destroyers, it seems more like it doesn’t do any fracturing but perhaps more of liquifying and resolidifying. This doesn’t really spell “destruction” to me, but merely changing form. Otherwise destroyers would be far more rigged, while they look smoother. Don’t get too stuck up on the name, but Destroyers would be more of, well, none of the schools of magic.

Which is what I think to be a massive problem people make. Magic is not limited to those four schools on whole. Magic from the bloodstone is – previously thought to be magic on Tyria, but with the Elder Dragons and the Mists, we got a whole wider spectrum of magic – and that’s ignoring the naturally appearing magic not from the Bloodstones (since the Elder Dragons consume all magic in the world each cycle, it has to either uncorrupt itself or more be made in order for the ED to work in cycles).

The DSD is harder, since we only got a single statement on it, but I think you’re way too tied up into the concept of magic focused on elements – water isn’t only used by elementalists, keep in mind, Necromancer use it in large amount through ice effects. Honestly, I’d be more compelled to link it to aggression – making something that is not solid and giving it a very specific shape, form, and movement. I would hardly call that “destruction”.

Regarding Kralkatorrik – his breath was described as plasma. He basically crystallized via intense heat. This is far from preservation like you claim. What this is, is anyone’s guess – but of the four schools I’d link it closest to Destruction, given the other aspects of Kralkatorrik’s magic.

But I just simply think it’s a mistake to try to limit the Elder Dragons to the four schools of magic, because lets face it – they don’t use the four schools of magic. They predate the bloodstone which predates the schools. We cannot think of the Elder Dragons’ magic in four simple dimensions. Nor can we think of the gods’ magic under them – I bet the schools were modeled after the gods’ magic, but certainly not everything the gods have.

And again: Destruction != only element manipulation (in both being the only way to, and only able to). It’s just the most obvious application.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But I just simply think it’s a mistake to try to limit the Elder Dragons to the four schools of magic, because lets face it – they don’t use the four schools of magic. They predate the bloodstone which predates the schools. We cannot think of the Elder Dragons’ magic in four simple dimensions. Nor can we think of the gods’ magic under them .

This is an excellent point that I’ll have to try to factor into future content discussion.

I should clarify the bold part in the paragraph you quoted – there is no reason to believe that they are restricted to the four schools of magic. They may use them, they may not; they may use magic just as it is originally – unlimited by the schools – and in turn be capable of using those schools, but more than just the schools, more than one school (even all four at once), or alternatively they simply mimic the schools without actually using them.

Honestly though, how the schools are limited to being unable to use all four by a single creature is confusing, and I’m curious if the Elder Dragons actually are limited to the bloodstone magic – since they make their own magic from pre-existing magic, I personally doubt it. They would consume magic from the four schools and elsewhere and turn it into something else entirely – that’s my belief, at least.

that makes sense. One thing I remember is that the bloodstones are only a collection of the uncorrupted magic. So the ED’s would probably not only not be limited by the separation of the bloodstones (or schools) but also not be limited by any combination of the schools either.

edit: for clarity

So they would probably have more powers than anything even full access to all the bloodstones could provide.

edit 2: and the gods may as well, but that would all be dependant on where the actual mantle of godhood derives it’s power from and under which specific rules. We know there are rules because the gods aren’t omnipotent, but we don’t know the specifics of those rules until a-net clarifies.

The way I look at it is, the schools of magic didn’t exist before the bloodstone. So any thing that used magic prior to that would have access to it all. The problem with my theory is we have no information to back it up. But my theory would have the dragons just using magic in general.

The gods on the other hand are not from Tyria, so it could be assumed that their magic doesn’t come from the bloodstones either. So they shouldn’t be restricted to the schools either.

Also the original bloodstone magic wasn’t restricted either, it wasn’t until the gods split the bloodstone to restrict its magic that the different schools showed up, still just my opinion.

But this brings me to another point. Tyria creates its own magic some how. Correct? If so does that mean the races could start using this magic also along with the bloodstones, which would mean they wouldn’t be restricted by the schools created by the bloodstone.

Since the ED consume magic, would that mean they have awakened because magic in the world has gotten to a point it woke them from their slumber like in the past, or are they just on a cycle and wake at a certain point?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But I just simply think it’s a mistake to try to limit the Elder Dragons to the four schools of magic, because lets face it – they don’t use the four schools of magic. They predate the bloodstone which predates the schools. We cannot think of the Elder Dragons’ magic in four simple dimensions. Nor can we think of the gods’ magic under them – I bet the schools were modeled after the gods’ magic, but certainly not everything the gods have.

Oh I pray you do not believe that I was actually taking into consideration this theory. I was more trying to disprove the Bloodstone-God-ED theory presented by Ludo by showing that the scenario just doesn’t work. I merely threw Kralkatorrik in the Preservation as a very hard to define possibility and nothing more. I personally don’t think there is any connection whatsoever.

Narcemus.1348:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But I just simply think it’s a mistake to try to limit the Elder Dragons to the four schools of magic, because lets face it – they don’t use the four schools of magic. They predate the bloodstone which predates the schools. We cannot think of the Elder Dragons’ magic in four simple dimensions. Nor can we think of the gods’ magic under them – I bet the schools were modeled after the gods’ magic, but certainly not everything the gods have.

Oh I pray you do not believe that I was actually taking into consideration this theory. I was more trying to disprove the Bloodstone-God-ED theory presented by Ludo by showing that the scenario just doesn’t work. I merely threw Kralkatorrik in the Preservation as a very hard to define possibility and nothing more. I personally don’t think there is any connection whatsoever.

Hahaha, you both made me feel like the conspiracy theorist of the lore forum. The funny thing is that even though you’ve presented plenty and rational points. I still feel there’s a connection there.
I’d even put the 6 starting professions from GW1 in there.
Warrior: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Champion_of_Balthazar
Monk: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Dwayna_
Necro: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Voice_of_Grenth
Ranger: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Melandru%27s_Watcher
Mesmer: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Muse
Elementalist: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Kormir

<< ALIENS >>

And before you prove me wrong, let me do that myself:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria
(see the patronage)

Dustfinger.9510:

edit 2: and the gods may as well, but that would all be dependant on where the actual mantle of godhood derives it’s power from and under which specific rules. We know there are rules because the gods aren’t omnipotent, but we don’t know the specifics of those rules until a-net clarifies.

Unless the schools were modeled after the Six Gods, the gods are not limited to them. They’re known to be gods – at least three of them – upon their arrival onto Tyria (Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar). While the other four (Dhuum, Abaddon, Lyss, and Ilya) are unknown to have been gods upon the arrival on the world, they were gods before the Bloodstone’s division and their mantle of power – that indestructibleness that makes them gods – likely comes from off of Tyria just like with Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar.

The real question we need is this: do the schools incorporate all magic divided perfectly, or is there magic that can exist outside the scope of the four schools?

Hjorje.9453:

Tyria creates its own magic some how. Correct?

Unproven but that’s the ongoing theory that hasn’t been really disagreed with among the community. We know that the Elder Dragons are said to consume all magic before going to hibernation from starvation (and failed the last awakening) in cycles, so it’s logical that magic must come back from somewhere – what or where that “somewhere” is, is the question. It could be naturally created from the world, it could be coming from the Mists, it could be that magic naturally “uncorrupts” itself while the dragons hibernate. It may even be that with each hibernation, the magic remains corrupted, but the Elder Dragons and how they corrupt magic change, so they could take the same magic they previously corrupted and twist it a whole new way. Though the last two ideas is kind of like someone eating their own puke after it dries into something solid. Not a pleasant mental image.

Hjorje.9453:

Since the ED consume magic, would that mean they have awakened because magic in the world has gotten to a point it woke them from their slumber like in the past, or are they just on a cycle and wake at a certain point?

My personal theory is that magic is a naturally generated phenomina in the world of Tyria, and that the Elder Dragons when the magical concentrations are at a high level in the world, where they consume it all and then go back to sleep. It’s a cycle that would normally take the same amount of time, because the flow of magic doesn’t change. However, thanks to the seers in the last cycle taking all of the magic into the Bloodstone, they not only went to sleep early, but when Abaddon released the magic, they then woke up early.

Given various pieces of evidence – the G-Lupe’s extinction in 10,000 BE, the jotun holding records of multiple risings, Sieran saying the first dwarven architecture are “over 2,000 years old” (rather than 10,000 years old to match the G-Lupe’s extinction, the proclaimed “last rise of the ED” timeframe – this places the first dwarven structures to date back to ~2,000 BE to 1,000 BE – 2k to 3k years prior), and the timeline from Prophecies saying the Forgotten arrived on Tyria in 1,768 BE – I suspect that the natural ED cycle is roughly every 4,000 years – marking their rises at approx. 10,000 BE, 6,000 BE, 2,000 BE (last rise), and now – a bit early – at 1,000 AE. In other words, my theory is that the ED woke up about 1,000 years early this cycle, thanks to the Seers and Abaddon’s actions. In turn, I’d mark the supposed Age of the Giants ending wither either 10,000 BE or 6,000 BE’s rise, with the jotun around for all three of those previous rises, and their fall occuring at the last rise thanks to the Seer taking their magic and putting it into the Bloodstone.

But this is all still theory crafting.

-continued in next post; dang character limit-

Ludovicus.7980:

Hahaha, you both made me feel like the conspiracy theorist of the lore forum. The funny thing is that even though you’ve presented plenty and rational points. I still feel there’s a connection there.

I think you just called yourself a conspiracy theorist yourself, by saying that you feel there’s a connection when it’s been countered with a lot of rational points – I think that’s the very definition of a conspiracy theorist. But hey, conspiracies are FUN!

Ludovicus.7980:

I’d even put the 6 starting professions from GW1 in there.
Warrior: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Champion_of_Balthazar
Monk: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Dwayna_
Necro: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Voice_of_Grenth
Ranger: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Melandru%27s_Watcher
Mesmer: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Muse
Elementalist: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Kormir

[…]

And before you prove me wrong, let me do that myself:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria
(see the patronage)

And you’re point? You give no context to this. And those avatars mean nothing, as that’s their own personal profession listed.

The Avatar of Kormir is a paragon, not elementalist. And Kormir hasn’t been shown to be the patron of any profession. After that, the same thing occurs with the schools of magic, and in fact we covered these professions directly already. Protection and Smiting monks pray to Balthazar; elementalists pray to all gods. And this is just the “common situation” – there is nothing that says that a necromancer cannot pray to Dwayna instead of Grenth, for example.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The real question we need is this: do the schools incorporate all magic divided perfectly, or is there magic that can exist outside the scope of the four schools?

This is a good question. I know the bloodstones are a collection of the un-corrupted magic. I took this to mean that there must be corrupted magic outside the bounds of the bloodstones but now I see it is possible that the corrupted magic may have still been magic that was in the category of that incorporated in the bloodstones. hmm.

Dustfinger.9510:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The real question we need is this: do the schools incorporate all magic divided perfectly, or is there magic that can exist outside the scope of the four schools?

This is a good question. I know the bloodstones are a collection of the un-corrupted magic. I took this to mean that there must be corrupted magic outside the bounds of the bloodstones but now I see it is possible that the corrupted magic may have still been magic that was in the category of that incorporated in the bloodstones. hmm.

Well, I think ritualists are the best example of magic outside of the bounds of the bloodstones.

@Konig Des Todes:
Of course I called a conspiracy theorist myself. You made me feel like that due to your reasoning, not by saying anything about me.

Edit : grammar

Ludovicus.7980:

Well, I think ritualists are the better example of magic outside of the bounds of the bloodstones.

Boom. There we go. That answers it.

Not necessarily. Ritualists originally used magic prior to the gift of magic, but nothing actually says that, with the new information on magic we have, that their magic doesn’t fall into the four schools. Keep in mind the following:

1. Ritualists predate the “gift of magic” in 1 BE; however, so does magic itself and if the theory that magic is naturally “produced” (via whatever means) between dragon cycles, then the Ritualists could have been accessing this magic that’s naturally made, and if the four schools equally divide all kinds of magic, then the ritualist is still using those four schools – just not as the four schools divide it (or not a single school).
2. Ritualists eventually merged into using Bloodstone magic; what their original form was is unknown, or if the merging was proactive – it could have occurred simply because the magic they were using beforehand just happened to be among those four schools. Reports say they were strengthened, but were they really? Human history isn’t entirely accurate when it comes to the origin of magic and the gods (everything else seems to be, just the things related to those two topics). Maybe they were weakened, reduced from using say 3 schools to using just 1.
3. Alternatively, Ritualists seem to use magic primarily via spirits – these spirits in turn may be limited to the Bloodstone’s schools, but the Ritualist via these spirits can bypass the “can’t use all four schools” limitation and either use all four schools – or all four and then some, depending on how much of the kinds of magic the four schools encompass.

And even if, despite those points, the Ritualist’s magic is 100% not one of the four schools, then what is it? It seems to be best described as “Communing Magic” (to use the name of one of the attribute lines). That is to say, that their magic may merely be the final point – the act of communication with the Mists. Transportation magic, interdimensional magic, or the like. In this essence, they’d be like Havrouns, I suppose.

Though digressing a bit, and a realization as I wrote this, there is one sample we have for magic before the bloodstones:

Cliffside Fractals

It’s based at the beginning of history in Tyria, and includes humans – the Archdiviner summoning spectral creatures, making him feel fairly ritualist-like. The magic that the Chanters and Archdiviner uses very well may be the original form of the Ritualists’ magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Regarding Kralkatorrik – his breath was described as plasma. He basically crystallized via intense heat. This is far from preservation like you claim.

While I am absolutely against the “Elder Dragons are the 6 Gods” theory, this could technically be viewed as a perversion of preservation.

What I mean with that is that things made out of crystal are more likely to be kept intact -or, ‘preserved’, if you will- since of course, crystal is a way stronger and more durable material than say grass, stone, and organic materials.

In the case of the landscape, not quite so. Ghosts of Ascalon describes the grass more like glass than crystal, and it crunched under their feet as they walked. Made it sound very brittle. It’s only the Branded themselves that really seemed sturdy, and even then a single a charr (Almorra) was able to kill her whole Branded warband.

I’d view Kralkatorrik’s crystal as being a flawed or imperfect kind of crystallization, being more brittle than most other kinds of crystals.

Sleeping dragons “leak” the massive amounts of energy they previously consumed.
This was the number 1 lesson from the Asura in Eye of the North.

Other creatures … IE: the Asura, Seers, Vizier Khilbron, Titans, even the Gods themselves clearly derived their power from this constant magic source and repurposed it to their specialties. If that wasn’t the case, then there wouldn’t be any of this Linked god-statues & Shrines crud all throughout Orr. They’d just be isolated little territories that didn’t affect any other parts of the region. And they definitely wouldn’t still be enforcing environmental conditions that don’t match that dragon’s specialty (Fear, Necrotism, Toxins, etc).

More will probably be revealed about this if we ever get more details about that Krait Orb or a formal break down from the Priory on how the Searing Caldrons were infused…

The gods came from the mists with their powers already in hand. And we are told that the magic of the playable races, as well as that of the seers, jotun, and dwarves are all from the bloodstone. This magic was all magic not already corrupted by the dragons. This does make me wonder though, would it not be possible to create another bloodstone and use it as a dragon-magic vacuum? Although it would be quite possibly dangerous to put that much magic in one object, probably why they didn’t do it.

Or the knowledge of how to create a bloodstone was lost with the disappearance of the seers.

I’m saying that it is possibly the reason they didn’t do that in the first place, not why they haven’t done it now, lol.

It would be interesting to see what would occur if we discover how the seers made the original bloodstone – and what the bloodstone is made out of. How would each race react? Would it be a desired means of weakening the Elder Dragons? I can bet that the charr would have no issue with creating another bloodstone, but the asura? They’d probably object to the nth degree.

It’s a shame GW isn’t a single player game – being able to go with making a choice that would affect all gameplay would be quite enjoyable for a plot device.

Narcemus.1348:

I’m saying that it is possibly the reason they didn’t do that in the first place, not why they haven’t done it now, lol.

Okay sorry then, I was (and still am) confused by the way it’s written.^^