Guild Wars 2

Just as a disclaimer before I begin, I’m hardly an expert on Guild Wars lore, so if I say anything that is outright incorrect please feel free to set me straight.

A while back I was reading up on Guild Wars & Guild Wars 2 lore, and I stumbled into a period where I became obsessed with learning about the Elder Dragons. Generally in video games, dragons tend to bore me immensely, but I feel like the way that they are protrayed in Guild Wars is especially intriguing. Not to mention, ArenaNet have done fantastic job at clearly displaying to the player just how powerful and destructive these guys can be. (Kralkatorrik created a scar in the map just by flying over it, ffs!)

As I read more, I found a bit about the Elder Dragons that really interested me. Apparently, the natural role of the Elder Dragons is to keep the magic of the world balanced. They go through these hibernation cycles, and awake periodically throughout history when the ley lines produce enough magic to entice them. Once they awake, they roam and destroy and wreak havoc, consuming that magic as they go about doing whatever they please. Then, once the world has been reduced to a low level of magic, they return to their slumber, for the cycle to begin anew. In a way, it almost seems like the universe created the Elder Dragons as a necessity so that magic could exist without running rampant, and swelling to the point of destroying the world by itself. (Note: The Elder Dragons consume magic and keep it in balance passively, almost by accident, and not intentionally.)

So, with that in mind, it brings me to my next point. We know that in the world there are six Elder Dragons. Primordus, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth, and a currently unnamed, unknown sixth dragon that awoke in the Unending Ocean. In the personal story (sorry, spoilers) Zhaitan is killed. I also think it is safe to assume that by the end of the Heart of Thorns expansion, Mordremoth will most likely be killed as well. What sort of effects do you believe killing these Elder Dragons will have on the amount of magical energy that currently flows through the ley lines? If all of the dragons are killed, could it have any disastrous effects on the world, since the force that keeps magic in check will no longer exist?

It will be really interesting to me, because in future expansions, if ArenaNet keep this mechanic in mind, we could see bits where we have to find ways to deal with the Elder Dragon’s paths of destruction without killing them, as killing them could have even more adverse effects.

I’d love to hear other people’s opinions on this. Like I said, I’m not a huge lore-junkie (though I’m working on it), so perhaps this has already been addressed and I’ve simply missed it? If so, fill me in! The curiosity is overwhelming.

This was possibly hinted at during the Hidden Arcana mission in the book The Map of the All.

If you’re not mistaken, this ancient tome was written by someone known as the Apostate. It appears to describe something similar to what you saw in your vision of the Eternal Alchemy.
Read on.
The author calls it the Antikytheria, describing it as a cosmic mechanism made of many parts, all spinning around a central body known in ancient Krytan as Thyria.
Read on.
Six large bodies orbit the world, existing in primal symbiosis. The energies move with the push and pull of positive and negative, ever in motion.
Read on.
The Apostate says one thing that is especially troubling… “Should the energies become imbalanced, the world will tilt and all beings will fall off it into the void.” It’s probably a metaphor.

General consensus at the moment is that the six large orbiting bodies are likely the representation of the Elder Dragons, and the green orb we saw crashing into Tyria/Pale Tree during our vision in the first part of s2 was showing us the death of Zhaitan.

That’s not a “general consensus”. The six orbiting bodies were confirmed to be the Elder Dragons already at the end of S2E2 (see story journal after the cinematic).

Furthermore, in S2E5:

Historian during Hidden Arcana

Shh. What do you need? Are you lost?

No. I have a question about the ceiling. What is that image?
That’s a map of the All. I like to think of them as spirit realms. That’s Tyria in the middle. All those other circles are spheres of influence and powerful magic.

What about the letters? Are those…
Yeah. First letter of each dragon’s name.

Who’s S?
Don’t know any more than that. That was all they could get from the Tome of the Five True Gods. It’s too damaged. Some of these scholars in here would kill to know the full name of that dragon.

Is it the deep sea dragon?
They think so. Me, I think they probably got the letter wrong, but who knows. They’re still translating and trying to fill in lost pieces.

Interesting. Thanks.

So that’s pretty much as canon as it gets. The one crashing into the center is Zhaitan, but the middle is Tyria – not the Pale Tree.

Yes, I know. I said “general consensus” because I was in a bit of a rush, and I hate stating stuff as facts in the Lore forum when I haven’t as posted the source material to back it up.

Though, personally, I wouldn’t say that it simply ends with the Elder Dragons=Orbs. In the s2e2 journal you mentioned, the player says that the orbs represent the Elder Dragon in the vision, with Tyria itself being represented by the Pale Tree (hence why I said Tyria/Pale Tree), and the conversation you quoted; the scholar said he liked to think of the image as Spirit Realms with Tyria in the center. That’s an awfully particular statement to say when describing what is supposedly just a representation of the relationship between Tyria and the Elder Dragons.

Didn’t mean to say you were wrong or anything Erukk, just backing up your statements with sources
As for the symbolism; yes, it could mean a lot of things. Btw @Fracking: You could check out WoodenPotatoes’ analysis of that cinematic for some interesting (and wild) theories.

The realms, the Gods, the Elder Dragons, the Eternal Alchemy, the small orbs we actually interact with in-game through the PS, corruption, magic balance (“Should the energies become imbalanced, the world will tilt and all beings will fall off it into the void.”). There’s a lot of intervening elements, and it’s impossible to make out all the possible combinations.

“The map of the All” strongly suggest that it’s showing quite much more to it than dragons flying around Tyria.

I think it’s that in S2E2 the PC interpreted the orbs as Elder Dragons, but they’re more correctly the spheres of magic or ‘spirit realms’ that each dragon is incidentally connected to. Killing the dragon means that the dragon is no longer soaking up the energy of that sphere, so the sphere crashing into Tyria is a metaphor for that sphere’s power being released in an unbound form upon Tyria.

We have a lot of indications, from various sources, that too much (and, for that record, too little) unbound magic is a bad thing for Tyria. What I’m inclined to think has happened is that the dragons weren’t any deliberate response to a problem, but simply evolved in a high-magic environment to make use of that magic… and thus ended up regulating it (just like predators help to regulate the numbers of herbivores). It’s possible that this happened while Tyria was not fully formed and still halfway in the Mists, and the dragons are responsible for bringing Tyria the stability to form fully.

However, they’re not doing so out of any higher purpose than being hungry, and there’s no reason other, less destructive methods can’t be employed to have the same result: regulation through the Bloodstones or artifacts of similar nature, for instance.

Spitballing…

Zhaitan did have a connection to an actual Spirit Realm in the PS, since he was able to pull spirits from the Mists, which could easily imply the Underworld, that Grenth and his Reapers took none to kindly. Zhaitan also ruled over the aspects of Death and Shadows, and those are two things that could easily describe what the Underworld is based on and made up of.

The same could probably be said with Mordremoth. He rules over the aspects of Plants and the Mind, and if you take away the death aspect that most people associate with “Spirit” Realms (and just leave it weird combination of both physical and the metaphysical that GW realms like to be), his connected realm would easily be the Dream. Especially since he seems to be getting stronger and stronger ties with the Nightmare “aspect” of the Dream as the story is coming along.

Fluid i think we learnd this from story(but not100% sure thet i read it from story ) elder dragon work on some efect like pull and push,evryone have ther job and if we push(kill) one something will hapen to others.This is my theory – we killd Zhaitan and we know thet magic he have eten have gone back to world and thet upset other dragons,when frst one awoken next one was 50 years later and so on but mordremoth was awoken onli ~7 years later from lest one so from this we can see thet too much magic gone back in world ,teq got litle of it but wasnt ready to get it all like glint was so we need something(glints egg) or someone(Like Kormir -think thet is right god want in gw1)to abosrb thet magic thet dead dragon give back to world.

Fracking Fluid Injection.8760:

They go through these hibernation cycles, and awake periodically throughout history when the ley lines produce enough magic to entice them.

Actually the Elder Dragons themselves leak magic while hey hibernate. The ley-lines are conduits of magic but don’t produce it. Magic can’t be created or destroyed.

Fracking Fluid Injection.8760:

(Note: The Elder Dragons consume magic and keep it in balance passively, almost by accident, and not intentionally.)

We don’t actually know if the Elder Dragons are natural or unnatural, if they maintain magic by accident or by intention

Fracking Fluid Injection.8760:

What sort of effects do you believe killing these Elder Dragons will have on the amount of magical energy that currently flows through the ley lines?

Hard to say, since the Elder Dragons have been maintaining magic. But from what we can tell of the Jotun they (supposedly) had a mighty magical empire which they drove into the ground because of their arrogance. From the story of King Doric we know that when humans had access to plenty of magic they basically went about making war and killing each other.
So if nothing else we know that too much power going around automatically leads to abuse of said power.

Fracking Fluid Injection.8760:

It will be really interesting to me, because in future expansions, if ArenaNet keep this mechanic in mind, we could see bits where we have to find ways to deal with the Elder Dragon’s paths of destruction without killing them, as killing them could have even more adverse effects.

Currently that seems to be why we’ve been looking for Glint’s egg, because theoretically we could position Glint’s baby to become the next Elder Dragon. Hopefully then Glint’s baby would be a nice Elder Dragon (although perhaps Elder is the wrong word to use) who can maintain the magic levels and not kill everyone.

I’m still of the belief that dragons do not “die” in the same way we players understand it. They become vanquished, sleep, and then wait until the next cycle to start all over again. Yes I’m aware of comments made by devs in saying “Zhaitan is dead.” But at the same time, that doesn’t really answer the question if EDs can actually DIE. We’d have to wait for Guild Wars 3 and it would have to jump ahead in time a considerable amount again in order for us to see the EDs rise again. So it is safe to say Zhaitan is dead because we wont be seeing him again in GW2.

They described these things like forces of nature. You don’t stop nature but you survive it. I do not think we actually kill them.

draxynnic.3719:

I think it’s that in S2E2 the PC interpreted the orbs as Elder Dragons, but they’re more correctly the spheres of magic or ‘spirit realms’ that each dragon is incidentally connected to. Killing the dragon means that the dragon is no longer soaking up the energy of that sphere, so the sphere crashing into Tyria is a metaphor for that sphere’s power being released in an unbound form upon Tyria.

We have a lot of indications, from various sources, that too much (and, for that record, too little) unbound magic is a bad thing for Tyria. What I’m inclined to think has happened is that the dragons weren’t any deliberate response to a problem, but simply evolved in a high-magic environment to make use of that magic… and thus ended up regulating it (just like predators help to regulate the numbers of herbivores). It’s possible that this happened while Tyria was not fully formed and still halfway in the Mists, and the dragons are responsible for bringing Tyria the stability to form fully.

However, they’re not doing so out of any higher purpose than being hungry, and there’s no reason other, less destructive methods can’t be employed to have the same result: regulation through the Bloodstones or artifacts of similar nature, for instance.

Agreed.

In Guild Wars 1 people theorized why Razah could come to be. For the Elder Dragons, I think they possibly followed the same process of creation. That magic at it’s core has a base property (like all things are composed of matter) and, like light, there are different spectrums. These massive amount of energies coalesced over time to become sentient beings that belonged to each individual sphere of magic power. But like animals, they must feed to survive and so they devour without much considerate for the species that panic bellow them – not until the current era anyways when, through Zhaitan’s demise, Mordremoth was quick to begin dismantling his opposition.

Never the less, I do not think the Dragon’s created the spheres but instead represent them. A manifestation of magical properties catering to one specific type, personified into a beast(s) of immense power.

Another thought, the rise of the Revenant, and Tyrians all of a sudden being able to have specializations (read increased magical power) could be related to Zhaitan’s complete and utter death and spewing his ancient magic directly into Tyria.

i cant remember where i read this (it may have been a forum post with no source) but what if a champion of an elder dragon could basically replace the original elder dragon – take tequatl for instance, after zhaitan died he got a buff (to make the battle more challengng to players) in game terms, he got more powerful “It has been gathering power in the depths. It is faster, stronger, deadlier. It has returned to devour and destroy. It is called Tequatl the Sunless… and it has evolved.” – official website

so once an elder dragon is killed, it leaves a power vacuum that can be filled by one of its champions – i suppose the point of having a champion is to have a failsafe in case you die

which makes me wonder – what happened to Gleam?

Getefix.9150:

so once an elder dragon is killed, it leaves a power vacuum that can be filled by one of its champions – i suppose the point of having a champion is to have a failsafe in case you die

Which seems to be exactly what occurred, in the case of Tequatl and what Glint herself was trying to do.
My theory is that dragons (both living and undead) are natural magic sponges, that the Elder Dragons were simply normal dragons that lived long enough absorb ridiculous amounts of magic (in some prehistoric age where dinosaurs and dragons reigned).
Although the idea of champions being failsafes implies that there’s something more going on. As far as I know champions are just extremely strong minions who are capable of doing more (and thus why EDs produce them).

CureForLiving.5360:

Getefix.9150:

so once an elder dragon is killed, it leaves a power vacuum that can be filled by one of its champions – i suppose the point of having a champion is to have a failsafe in case you die

Which seems to be exactly what occurred, in the case of Tequatl and what Glint herself was trying to do.
My theory is that dragons (both living and undead) are natural magic sponges, that the Elder Dragons were simply normal dragons that lived long enough absorb ridiculous amounts of magic (in some prehistoric age where dinosaurs and dragons reigned).
Although the idea of champions being failsafes implies that there’s something more going on. As far as I know champions are just extremely strong minions who are capable of doing more (and thus why EDs produce them).

maybe theyre not intentionally failsafes but they do fill that role pretty nicely

Could one of the spheres of influence be Tyria’s moon?

That… seems unlikely. There’d be six moons.

he said one of the spheres – maybe, if there some space dragon… :O OMG once all dragons are dead, elona is freed and the ministry of purity is overthrown – we get to fight the moon…its… an egg…….

Getefix: That was probably me, actually, which was a hypothesis. It was, however, a hypothesis based on the idea that Glint, a former dragon champion, could one day become an elder dragon herself.

My thinking is similar to CureForLiving here – dragons (Tyrian dragons, anyway – Canthan dragons may be different) are natural magic sponges. A dragon that’s a champion to an existing dragon can only become as powerful as its master allows before the master siphons off any excess power, but any independent dragon has the potential to become an Elder Dragon.

CureForLiving.5360:

But from what we can tell of the Jotun they (supposedly) had a mighty magical empire which they drove into the ground because of their arrogance.

It’s unclear as to the cause for that, actually. The jotun certainly knew a time when magic was more plentiful, but they also believed that power resided in the blood… and that power could be taken by killing others. There are indications that what really happened there was possibly that the jotun were responding to the loss of magic by trying to claim the magic by spilling each other’s blood.

Getefix.9150:

he said one of the spheres – maybe, if there some space dragon… :O OMG once all dragons are dead, elona is freed and the ministry of purity is overthrown – we get to fight the moon…its… an egg…….

Calm down Doctor.

I wonder how Kuunavang is related to the Elder dragons?

Bathos.6341:

I wonder how Kuunavang is related to the Elder dragons?

either shes a champion of (selbbub) an elder dragon or shes just an old/powerful saltspray dragon

Bathos.6341:

I wonder how Kuunavang is related to the Elder dragons?

We lack too much information to make any sort of accurate guess on the matter. Especially since Kuunavang and Cantha as a whole seem to be a long long way off development wise, and the writers can change their mind on what they want to do with her numerous times between here and there.

draxynnic.3719:

Killing [a] dragon means that the dragon is no longer soaking up the energy of that sphere, so the sphere crashing into Tyria is a metaphor for that sphere’s power being released in an unbound form upon Tyria.

I’d go one step further, and assert that magic is no longer being “renewed” for that sphere. I don’t think that it is a coincidence that Tequatl has survived the assault on Zaithan. Because he lives, the sphere dominated by Zaithan will not be damaged beyond repair.

Fracking Fluid Injection.8760:

I’d love to hear other people’s opinions on this. Like I said, I’m not a huge lore-junkie (though I’m working on it), so perhaps this has already been addressed and I’ve simply missed it? If so, fill me in! The curiosity is overwhelming.

This is something that caught my attention, too.

I think the simplest explanation is the one we will get: the Dragons absorb magic, so without them we risk magic becoming too much for the world, and setting it out of balance.

It would be interesting if the answer is a bit more complex than that. We are told that each Dragon has two domains. I wonder if the magic that comes from a given Dragon’s dead body is linked to said domains. So, for example, Zhaitan’s magic bleeding to the world would increase specifically the power of death and shadow magic (and, since the other Dragons absorb everything, it could even give them minor death and magic attributes).

Therefore, the death of Mordremoth would increase the power of plant magic in the entire world, making the Pale Tree a lot stronger (since she – it? – is the main user of plant magic in Tyria). But it could also mean that, if say, Primordius is left as the last Dragon, he could be still the master of fire and earth, but also have minor powers in death, shadow, plants, minds, crystals, air, water and secrets.

That’s more fanfiction than speculation – again, I think the explanation we will get will be a lot simpler than that.

…But, if we can get carried away, I wonder if it isn’t A LOT more complex than this. The Elder Dragons appear in the map of All as big as Tyria itself. If they are only regulatory systems to keep the world balanced, why are they being shown as being individually as important as the world itself?

I wonder if the Elder Dragons aren’t just part of a whole. If each Dragon isn’t just a regulatory system, but actually a doorway to entire realms based on their domains. Zhaitan, for example, would drain magic from Tyria and send it to the Realm (or planet) of death and shadow, in which the raw magic of Tyria would be transformed and released back as shadow and death magic. The same for the other dragons. Zhaitan would be not the name of the Dragon itself, rather the name of the entire Realm. And the 6 Realms would exist around Tyria, feeding from it but also nurturing it.

This would open some interesting story possibilities – now that the Realm of Zhaitan lacks its power source, its inhabitants are going to need to do something to get magic back. But, again, this is more fanfiction than speculation, and the truth will likely be far, far simpler.

Test.8734:

I wonder if the Elder Dragons aren’t just part of a whole. If each Dragon isn’t just a regulatory system, but actually a doorway to entire realms based on their domains. Zhaitan, for example, would drain magic from Tyria and send it to the Realm (or planet) of death and shadow, in which the raw magic of Tyria would be transformed and released back as shadow and death magic. The same for the other dragons. Zhaitan would be not the name of the Dragon itself, rather the name of the entire Realm. And the 6 Realms would exist around Tyria, feeding from it but also nurturing it.

This would open some interesting story possibilities – now that the Realm of Zhaitan lacks its power source, its inhabitants are going to need to do something to get magic back. But, again, this is more fanfiction than speculation, and the truth will likely be far, far simpler.

I’ve been wondering something along these lines as well, but I was thinking the Elder Dragon might have a connection or are tied to the different “realms” that are connected to Tyria.

Zhaitan / The Underworld
Mordremoth / The Dream
Primordus / (Possibly?) The Fissure of Woe

The Realm of Torment might be a contender as well, but it’s so screwed up by Abaddon and his influence I have no idea what to really describe it as, or what magic it might possibly be connected to, other than chaotic and horrific with its general “fleshy” atmosphere. So, that leaves Jormag, Kralk, and Selbbub without a known connected realm.

As for any possible God connection with the realms, I thought it might be possible that the realms themselves existed long before the Six actually got to Tyria, and the Six only adopted/claimed them after their arrival because they were convenient and to make use of them for their own personal reasons.

It’s not a really well thought out theory, but my lore driven conspiracy theorist tendencies want to connect the dots for whatever reason.

draxynnic.3719:

Killing [a] dragon means that the dragon is no longer soaking up the energy of [their associated] sphere, so the sphere crashing into Tyria is a metaphor for that sphere’s power being released in an unbound form upon Tyria.

The question is what these “unbound” forms of magic do when they coalesce (i.e. when each dead dragon’s magic is released into Tyria). I imagine that the result would be similar to that which followed the Thaumanova Reactor meltdown: a big explosion.

draxynnic.3719:

However, they’re not doing so out of any higher purpose than being hungry, and there’s no reason other, less destructive methods can’t be employed to have the same result: regulation through the Bloodstones or artifacts of similar nature, for instance.

Draxynnic, as you noted earlier, various forms of blood sacrifice have been practiced in what could be considered an effort to generate magical energy (i.e. change magic from one form to another). Thus, I do not think that alternative ways of renewing magic in Tyria will be any less bloodthirsty, violent or destructive than those of the Elder Dragons.

Stephen.6312:

I’d go one step further, and assert that magic is no longer being “renewed” for that sphere. I don’t think that it is a coincidence that Tequatl has survived the assault on Zaithan. Because he lives, the sphere dominated by Zaithan will not be damaged beyond repair.

Rox was walking around with a piece of Tequatl’s tail after Tequatl Rising. Tequatl was either killed or substantially injured after Tequatl Rising.

Test.8734:

This would open some interesting story possibilities – now that the Realm of Zhaitan lacks its power source, its inhabitants are going to need to do something to get magic back. But, again, this is more fanfiction than speculation, and the truth will likely be far, far simpler.

It’s an interesting possibility. One of the scholars in the Priory does describe them as ‘spirit realms’, indicating that there’s more to them than just the dragon.

Stephen.6312:

The question is what these “unbound” forms of magic do when they coalesce (i.e. when each dead dragon’s magic is released into Tyria). I imagine that the result would be similar to that which followed the Thaumanova Reactor meltdown: a big explosion.

We’ve had two dragons killed now, though: the full elder dragon Zhaitan, and the potential elder Glint. In both cases, the magic has been slowly leaking out of their remains. No explosions.

The ‘explode when killed’ is a trait of gods, but the deaths of dragons seems to be less violent.

draxynnic.3719:

Draxynnic, as you noted earlier, various forms of blood sacrifice have been practiced in what could be considered an effort to generate magical energy (i.e. change magic from one form to another). Thus, I do not think that alternative ways of renewing magic in Tyria will be any less bloodthirsty, violent or destructive than those of the Elder Dragons.

“Various forms of blood sacrifice”, as you put it, is a source of magic because souls and life force are both forms of magic. You can get magical energy through sacrifice not because sacrifice is necessary to convert or direct magical energy, but because the lives sacrificed are themselves a form of energy to be harnessed. However, mesmers and asura have both shown the capability to convert and manipulate magical energy without requiring shedding of blood or taking of lives.

The asura in particular already have a variety of magic batteries – all you’d really need to do is keep enough of it stored at once and that would avoid a crisis from excess magic.

draxynnic.3719:

However, mesmers and asura have both shown the capability to convert and manipulate magical energy without requiring shedding of blood or taking of lives.

The asura in particular already have a variety of magic batteries – all you’d really need to do is keep enough of it stored at once and that would avoid a crisis from excess magic.

Can you help me to understand your perspective? Are you stating that asura and mesmers are capable of transforming souls into various other forms of magic, or something else?

He’s effectively restating what Oola says in a more specific manner: souls are magical energy (or can be used as such.

But that statement is separate from his mention of asura and mesmers. While some asura do use souls as magical energy (Inquest, primarily), his mention of asura was that they have managed to manipulate and store magic (both related and unrelated to souls). Similarly, mesmers are capable of manipulating magic (as are all other magical professions, just in different manners and focuses).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

He’s effectively restating what Oola says in a more specific manner: souls are magical energy (or can be used as such.

But that statement is separate from his mention of asura and mesmers. While some asura do use souls as magical energy (Inquest, primarily), his mention of asura was that they have managed to manipulate and store magic (both related and unrelated to souls). Similarly, mesmers are capable of manipulating magic (as are all other magical professions, just in different manners and focuses).

Is there any dynamic event or dungeon in which we learn that the asura are using souls? More specifically, why would the mere act of storing magic be enough to keep it “balanced”? I would have thought that the bloodstones demonstrated that such an approach was unsustainable in the long-term scheme of things. Furthermore, hasn’t what the asura are doing (i.e. storing magic) been around for centuries in the form of artifacts (such as the artifacts from Abaddon’s Temple that Zaithan consumed)? How would asuran power crystals be any different?

Stephen.6312:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

He’s effectively restating what Oola says in a more specific manner: souls are magical energy (or can be used as such.

But that statement is separate from his mention of asura and mesmers. While some asura do use souls as magical energy (Inquest, primarily), his mention of asura was that they have managed to manipulate and store magic (both related and unrelated to souls). Similarly, mesmers are capable of manipulating magic (as are all other magical professions, just in different manners and focuses).

Is there any dynamic event or dungeon in which we learn that the asura are using souls? More specifically, why would the mere act of storing magic be enough to keep it “balanced”? I would have thought that the bloodstones demonstrated that such an approach was unsustainable in the long-term scheme of things. Furthermore, hasn’t what the asura are doing (i.e. storing magic) been around for centuries in the form of artifacts (such as the artifacts from Abaddon’s Temple that Zaithan consumed)? How would asuran power crystals be any different?

I don’t know if any current asura follow this practice, and the few that do (Inquest) tend to be very secretive of their research and knowledge. However, in the second instance of Seeds of Truth, we do see Vorpp using sylvari souls life force to power the golem Faolain is fighting. It kills the sylvari powering the device after a while, so it isn’t a perfect power source.

I don’t think we fight any golem powered by souls in-game, but it’s a much-mentioned topic of the Inquest and a focus of the asura Dynamics storyline.

Actually, there are a couple- in Metrica, the boss golem south of the reactor is powered by the souls of kidnapped refugees, and the complex in the north-east that made it is said by the heart to be generally geared towards that kind of research.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t think we fight any golem powered by souls in-game, but it’s a much-mentioned topic of the Inquest and a focus of the asura Dynamics storyline.

Thank you for clarifying that.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Actually, there are a couple- in Metrica, the boss golem south of the reactor is powered by the souls of kidnapped refugees, and the complex in the north-east that made it is said by the heart to be generally geared towards that kind of research.

Good spotting.

Aaron, in regards to your observation, I think that the asuran use of souls to power things – or the essence of something, like a dragon minion – demonstrates that our methods are just as barbarous as those of the dragons. How can we justify destroying the Elder Dragons, only to replace them with methods as brutal as their own?

Mainly because we don’t use the Inquest’s methods- we broadly condemn them, in fact, and us adventurers are often seen doing our utmost to stomp them out. Whatever barbarism the Inquest endorses absolutely does not reflect on any of us beings outside the Inquest.

draxynnic.3719:

The ‘explode when killed’ is a trait of gods, but the deaths of dragons seems to be less violent.

I respect your opinion. In light of the following:

Ogden Stonehealer: Too much magic, and the world spins out of control. Too little, and it crumbles into darkness.

What do you propose too much, or too little magic would do to Tyria, if not cause either an explosion or implosion?

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Mainly because we don’t use the Inquest’s methods- we broadly condemn them, in fact, and us adventurers are often seen doing our utmost to stomp them out. Whatever barbarism the Inquest endorses absolutely does not reflect on any of us beings outside the Inquest.

I think that this returns us to an earlier point, in which Draxynnic suggested that alternative means of converting magic from one form to another exist and therefore, we can do without the existing dragonic cycle. The issue I have with such a perspective is simply that it doesn’t account for the fact that dragons feed on living beings (or lifeforce). In other words, the process of harvesting the lifeforce of creatures must have a part to play in the natural balancing of magic. Therefore, any attempt to substitute the existing system with another must take into account this aspect. Does anyone have any insights into why the Elder Dragons consume lifeforce? They would be appreciated

Stephen.6312:

What do you propose too much, or too little magic would do to Tyria, if not cause either an explosion or implosion?

Too little would likely results in deserts all around the world. Continuous wastelands. The world dying off, literally.

Too much likely results in things like the aftermath of Thaumanova – creatures randomly teleporting around, magical concentrations becoming toxic, the environment rapidly changing or merging to even where we see underwater bubbles up in the air. Though this is an over-concentration of chaos magic, I’d imagine that an over-concentration of any magic can hold similar but more thematic effects.

That is how I see it, though I perhaps take Ogden’s words literally.

Stephen.6312:

I think that this returns us to an earlier point, in which Draxynnic suggested that alternative means of converting magic from one form to another exist and therefore, we can do without the existing dragonic cycle. The issue I have with such a perspective is simply that it doesn’t account for the fact that dragons feed on living beings (or lifeforce). In other words, the process of harvesting the lifeforce of creatures must have a part to play in the natural balancing of magic. Therefore, any attempt to substitute the existing system with another must take into account this aspect. Does anyone have any insights into why the Elder Dragons consume lifeforce? They would be appreciated

Drax said that we can manage magic without Elder Dragons because it’s shown in lore that such has been done. Though without utilizing it to the utmost effectiveness.

Mainly, the Bloodstones.

Bloodstones are basically gargantuan power crystals, which the asura use on a regular basis. Power crystals are crystals that have magical energy stored within.

If the seers can do it on a large scale, and asura can do it on a small scale, then there’s a good chance the asura can figure out how to do it on a large scale.

Elder Dragons appear to balance magic by going from one extreme (full of magic) to the other extreme (lack of magic) and use their own bodies to regulate. Them going after the living beings of the world is likely unnecessary – being part of balancing extremes rather than balancing via middle ground – and what deems them “evil” in many eyes. The alternative to avoid that would be balancing in the middle ground.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Stephen.6312:

What do you propose too much, or too little magic would do to Tyria, if not cause either an explosion or implosion?

Too little would likely results in deserts all around the world. Continuous wastelands. The world dying off, literally.

Too much likely results in things like the aftermath of Thaumanova – creatures randomly teleporting around, magical concentrations becoming toxic, the environment rapidly changing or merging to even where we see underwater bubbles up in the air. Though this is an over-concentration of chaos magic, I’d imagine that an over-concentration of any magic can hold similar but more thematic effects.

That is how I see it, though I perhaps take Ogden’s words literally.

I like your idea.

Stephen.6312:

I think that this returns us to an earlier point, in which Draxynnic suggested that alternative means of converting magic from one form to another exist and therefore, we can do without the existing dragonic cycle. The issue I have with such a perspective is simply that it doesn’t account for the fact that dragons feed on living beings (or lifeforce). In other words, the process of harvesting the lifeforce of creatures must have a part to play in the natural balancing of magic. Therefore, any attempt to substitute the existing system with another must take into account this aspect. Does anyone have any insights into why the Elder Dragons consume lifeforce? They would be appreciated

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Drax said that we can manage magic without Elder Dragons because it’s shown in lore that such has been done. Though without utilizing it to the utmost effectiveness.

Mainly, the Bloodstones.

Bloodstones are basically gargantuan power crystals, which the asura use on a regular basis. Power crystals are crystals that have magical energy stored within.

If the seers can do it on a large scale, and asura can do it on a small scale, then there’s a good chance the asura can figure out how to do it on a large scale.

Elder Dragons appear to balance magic by going from one extreme (full of magic) to the other extreme (lack of magic) and use their own bodies to regulate. Them going after the living beings of the world is likely unnecessary – being part of balancing extremes rather than balancing via middle ground – and what deems them “evil” in many eyes. The alternative to avoid that would be balancing in the middle ground.

I think that this is where we agree to disagree. I don’t see the bloodstone as a demonstration of our ability to fully regulate magic. As I see it, the bloodstone was a way to store a portion of what I will term “ambient magic” – that is, the magic which spellcasters rely on to cast their spells (such as mesmers, elementalists etc). It did not allow us to “recycle” magic. Furthermore, the bloodstone may have caused more harm than good. As an artificial form of “regulation”, it may have led to the war between the seers and the mursaat, and later within humanity, and between humanity and various other races. I think that the bloodstone demonstrates that in an environment in which there is a scarcity of magic, conflicts for the remaining magic will result.

I believe that the bloodstone was a colossal failure. The human gods’ decision to split the stone into pieces and cast it into a volcano suggests that they were actually trying to destroy it. But the bloodstone is an extremely hardy artifact. It had already survived (if accounts of the last dragonrise are accurate) ~7500 years of existence, then survived the volcano, and remains to this day. Now, it still has weaknesses (we have bloodstone dust, for example, demonstrating that it is subject to wear, and the human gods were capable of breaking it, although i’d argue that they weren’t able to shatter it into hundreds of thousands of pieces).

I guess the problem with our current thinking about magic is that we don’t see it as something that goes through various phases of renewal. We see magic like water in it’s liquid state, but magic may in fact have more states which we cannot change by merely storing and regulating it’s “liquid” form (ambient magic).

I think this are really cool specualtions and i like thinking about lore anyways

While reading through your answers 2 (or maybe 3) different possibilities came to my mind:

1) The “void” caused by the killing of Elder Dragons has to be filled (really liked the coparison to Kormir). So to avoid a never ending fight we have to find “good” avatars to take their part.
> the Pale Tree for Modri’s magic
> Glints’ Baby
> Ogden?!
I don’t know…but you get the idea… OR we fail by doing it (as seen with Teq. and just ONE ED’s magic will turn “good” (Glint’s baby?). So at this point we KNOW it is POSSIBLE and that is our effort and heritage for the future generations:

“Hey guys we had to deal with ED, too. We killed them but the magic was transfered to others. But we managed to transfer the Might of XXX into our friend XX. This is the only known way to end this circle of agony, pain and death.”

2) We don’t care about balance of magic because it is an slow process. We kill all of the elder dragons and celebrate. We’ll live in a period of peace and love and hippie. Maybe we’ll even forget about the ED. BUT because of the “too much magic and the world spins out” things start to change…

New Stuff for Guild Wars 3
(Just like WE helped the Lich release the destroyers (or titans?)) So would not be new to us if something we did in the past affects the future in a bad way

3) (I think the most boring one)
We kill the dragons and find a new way to maintain the circle of magic. Combine the experiences of the races (and the help of the Mursaat) like the asuran technologie, the Norn connection to other spheres the Silvary’s ability to stay in touch with the dream, the human gods (?) and the charr…well they start a new foefire and everyone dies…the end

xXLuggXx.4018:

I think this are really cool specualtions and i like thinking about lore anyways

While reading through your answers 2 (or maybe 3) different possibilities came to my mind:

1) The “void” caused by the killing of Elder Dragons has to be filled (really liked the coparison to Kormir). So to avoid a never ending fight we have to find “good” avatars to take their part.
> the Pale Tree for Modri’s magic
> Glints’ Baby
> Ogden?!
I don’t know…but you get the idea… OR we fail by doing it (as seen with Teq. and just ONE ED’s magic will turn “good” (Glint’s baby?). So at this point we KNOW it is POSSIBLE and that is our effort and heritage for the future generations:

Hi xXLuggXx,
The proposal to substitute Elder Dragons with other, more benevolent beings has only really gained traction with Ogden Stonehealer’s suggestion that Glint might have replaced an Elder (presumably Kralkatorrik), so there is in-game support for the substitution theory. My concern, however, with those viewpoints that offer other candidates – other than dragons – is primarily that we haven’t clarified whether the Elder Dragons’ consumption of lifeforce is somehow fundamental to their role as keepers of the balance of magic. If it is, obviously “benevolent” replacements will not be sufficient.

Just my two cents of course…

The impression I had is that the gods tipped the bloodstones into the volcano in order to make them inaccessible, not because they expected it to destroy them. If they were looking to throw the Ring into Mt Doom, there wasn’t much point to splitting them beforehand – if they could be destroyed by magma, they’d be destroyed either way.

The dragons consume lifeforce because while they act to regulate magic, they’re not doing so out of any sense of stewardship of the world. They’re doing it because they eat magic when there’s a lot of it and hibernate when there isn’t, much like bears hibernate through the winter months where there isn’t much food around. Life force is a form of magic, and we have ample evidence of means to convert magic into life force (healing spells…) and vice versa (necromancer soul reaping, for instance), and the dragons simply don’t discriminate between magic in the form of souls and life force, and magic in some other form. It’s all food to them. They don’t consume life because they have to, they consume life because it’s as good a meal as any.

The degree to which the artifact that would later become the Bloodstones was a success or failure is unknown. It certainly appears to have succeeded in putting the dragons to sleep and keeping Tyria in a low-magic environment until the gods tampered with it. However, we don’t know what was going to happen if they didn’t – the Bloodstone may have been pulling enough that if the gods didn’t reverse the flow it was going to turn Tyria into the lifeless wasteland Konig describes, eventually sucking all of Tyria’s magic (including life force) into it. However, there’s nothing to indicate that a properly regulated system of batteries couldn’t regulate Tyria’s magic. And since magical storage devices that don’t require blood magic exist (the ether crystal Gadd and Livia argue over in EOTN, for instance) there’s no reason to think there needs to be a sacrifice of life force to achieve this – magic could simply be culled from the environment while it is in other forms.

draxynnic.3719:

The impression I had is that the gods tipped the bloodstones into the volcano in order to make them inaccessible, not because they expected it to destroy them. If they were looking to throw the Ring into Mt Doom, there wasn’t much point to splitting them beforehand – if they could be destroyed by magma, they’d be destroyed either way.

A fair point. I think that regardless of whether the gods wanted to destroy the bloodstone or not, they clearly did something with it that the seers probably didn’t intend. Thus, it was rendered obsolete.

draxynnic.3719:

The dragons consume lifeforce because while they act to regulate magic, they’re not doing so out of any sense of stewardship of the world.

I’m not sure whether their attitude toward the balance that they currently maintain matters. Civilizations develop in the context of the Elder Dragonic cycle – or at least, they have until now. Thus, the observation that they balance magic is perfectly valid.

Your suggestion that they can be replaced by practices such as necromancy is insightful, although I’m not sure at this point whether resorting to such brutal methods of generating magic makes us any better than the dragons. Given the scale of the system over which the dragons preside, coupled with the dark nature of necromancy, I cannot foresee anything other than more monsters rising to power to replace the dragons.

My whole point is that it doesn’t need to be done by necromancy – magic batteries that do not require taking of life have been established to exist.

Stephen.6312:

Civilizations develop in the context of the Elder Dragonic cycle – or at least, they have until now. Thus, the observation that they balance magic is perfectly valid.

This is only because they wipe out all civilizations while awake. A civilization cannot grow if it is wiped out.

This isn’t evidence towards balancing magic, but that the Elder Dragons “wipe the slate clean” whenever they wake up. And they wake up when magic is in abundance – a result of them leaking magic while asleep/dead. They balance the magic – intentional or not – by extremes. From too much magic (waking point) to too little magic (sleeping point). If they were solely focused on balancing magic, then they’d keep it towards the middle-ground, which would not require destroying civilizations (though will result in hindering advancements for those geared more towards magic, like asura).

Stephen.6312:

Your suggestion that they can be replaced by practices such as necromancy is insightful, although I’m not sure at this point whether resorting to such brutal methods of generating magic makes us any better than the dragons. Given the scale of the system over which the dragons preside, coupled with the dark nature of necromancy, I cannot foresee anything other than more monsters rising to power to replace the dragons.

As said, necromancy isn’t a requirement. And I have to dispute that claim of a “dark nature of necromancy” as not all necromancy is dark – there is as much a dark nature of necromancy as there is of mesmers, elementalists, and even guardians/monks.