Guild Wars 2

Actually, it’s not so much about Logan as how people see him. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t like him as a character because he’s too wholesome, straight-laced and illogically smitten. However, I can’t see why everyone goes along with the idea that he, “ran away” during the Kralkatorrik fight.

I understand Rytlock claiming Logan did because he was hurt by Logan leaving but Logan left a well-prepped situation that was becoming dangerous to go to a situation that was already dangerous that no one expected. How is that running away?

I think it has less to do with the situations he was choosing between and more with the greater implications of his choice. It’s brought up several times that Logan leaving resulted in Snaff’s death, the breakup of Destiny’s Edge, and an Elder Dragon escaping to become an potentially cataclysmic threat. Logan abandoning the fight caused very negative things; therefore he ran away.

The problem here is one of presentation. The game never addressed the other side. If Logan hadn’t left, Jennah may well have died. Had that happened, Caudecus would have gotten power, which would at best turn Kryta into a state uninterested in the well-being of other peoples (or their own) and at worst would have resulted in riots and possible rebellion in Kryta. Either way, between that and the lack of a concrete example of what can be accomplished by human-charr cooperation, the peace talks would be out of the question. There would be one less Elder Dragon, but the possibility of the others being defeatable would be markedly lower than it is now. Not a single bit of that is touched upon in game- unless a player read the books and bothered to think things through to their logical, if hypothetical, conclusions, they would be left with the conclusion that Logan’s choice was an entirely bad one.

There’s also the issue for those who read the book of how Jennah ended up saving Logan’s behind, making them question if Logan was even needed in the first place.

To be fair, Jennah’s illusion didn’t show up until the Ebon Vanguard, Logan, and near a hundred charr were at their breaking point. The question is rather the Ebon Vanguard and the door could have held that long without Logan and the charr, and while we don’t know enough to say for sure, I am inclined to not believe it.

That’s what I was about to point out myself. Jennah wasn’t able to do that until after the defenders were reaching breaking point with Jennah. Their detractors like to think that Jennah could have done that at any time, but unlike the instantaneous combat spells that PCs use, an illusion of that magnitude and realism probably required time to prepare.

Other things that are typically forgotten:

First, Logan left planning to come back. We’re not told explicitly what he thought he was being called to, but I think he genuinely expected that it’d be something he’d be able to deal with quickly and return in time to make a difference. Because of what he found when he did get there, though, by the time he was done, he knew the fight with Kralkatorrik would have been over one way or the other.

Second, we don’t know for sure that Logan’s presence would have meant Kralkatorrik’s death. He would have at least slowed the minions from getting to Snaff, which probably would have meant that Rytlock would have succeeded in at least wounding Kralky, but I don’t think “Logan not running away → Kralkatorrik dead” is as guaranteed as people claim it is.

And as observed above – trading killing Kralkatorrik for the possibility of Kryta falling into chaos or becoming more insular would probably not have been a trade in Tyria’s favour. Especially since we’re now seeing Kryta supporting Lion’s Arch – a Kryta under Caudecus would probably not be so supportive of Lion’s Arch or the orders.

We actually don’t know how soon Jennah would have been able to produce the illusion – which is part of that argument. Because she’s in the background the whole time, not showing preparation or exhaustion once Logan shows up, people think “she could have done that at any time” and simply waited for the last possible minute to become a dues ex machina.

On your second point – the oracle and seer known as Glint does say that they will succeed if and only if they stand together. They didn’t, they didn’t succeed. Of course, Glint could have been wrong.

draxynnic.3719:

Second, we don’t know for sure that Logan’s presence would have meant Kralkatorrik’s death.

Enter Ceridwen

I’m pretty sure he’s just decorative. I’ve seen him fight. He seems to enjoy lying down on the floor a lot.

As you were with the proper discussion.

Exeunt

Ceridwen.6703:

draxynnic.3719:

Second, we don’t know for sure that Logan’s presence would have meant Kralkatorrik’s death.

Enter Ceridwen

I’m pretty sure he’s just decorative. I’ve seen him fight. He seems to enjoy lying down on the floor a lot.

As you were with the proper discussion.

Exeunt

He is the undisputed master of the Sleeping Swordsman style of fighting which is known far and wide for it’s complete and utter uselessness.

I don’t find weird so many people question if Logan was necessary in Ebonhawke. A problem is that most of the things people mention to say he made a difference there (such as how the queen needed him to buy time) are never explicitly stated, and are mostly left for speculation, while the effects of his abscence are clearly stated to have catastrophic results to Destiny’s Edge.

I believe saying he “ran away” makes it seem as if he ran out of fear, which is innacurate, but he did leave his comrades just before a huge battle he had a vital role to play. I think his presence there would have ultimately meant the dragon’s death, quoting the book itself:
“Especially because they had been so close. Just a few moments more and the lance would have pierced the dragon’s heart, and Kralkatorrik would have died, and Snaff would have lived. A few moments that Logan could have given them.”
The only apparent reason the plan failed was that Caithe could not protect Snaff by herself (she only held out for that long because Rytlock was with her until he had to leave to deal what was supposed to be the killing blow). It’s pretty safe to say, at least from a strategic point of view, that Logan’s presence there would have made the plan a success: helping Caithe guard Snaff, he would only have to hold out a little more until Rytlock could pierce the dragon’s heart, what doesn’t seem it would be that much longer. The way the book tells the events, and even the tone it uses to do so, at least seems to send the message that piercing the dragon’s heart would kill it, and that Logan’s presence would certainly make the plan a success.

Of course, that is only one of the problems with Logan’s narrative and dillema between his guild friends and his queen. He doesn’t seem to have gone for her call for fear of some sort of political consequence to her death, but out of love, and the relationship between the two is incredibly underdeveloped and not even what you would call official. Even if Jennah’s death could have caused Kryta to enter in chaos, that doesn’t seem to have been his motivation at all, which reflects in his character.

Honestly one of the problems i have with this game is how much it seems to punch humans in the stomach. Okay the empire’s in ruins, that i can live with and it adds a lot of plot hooks. However what i can’t live with are the frothing hordes of Charr fanboys who seem to think that Charr are the best race ever and that nothing they do is wrong while blatantly ignoring how they butchered their way throught the human empire, nearly brought about the end of the world and turned Ascalon into a fire-wreathed wasteland. Really hearing how they complain about how EVIIIIL the humans are is extremely annoying as humanity actually saved the world… MULTIPLE TIMES.
_

That was a pointless rant.
_

-Angangseh

@Vivuri It does reflect on his character, but in a good way, I think. His divided loyalties, and the emotional duress they put on him, give him depth and room to grow. As much as his defensiveness or overprotective outbursts can wear on some people, without it he’d just be the perfect, flat, and let’s not forget boring, white knight archetype.

@Angangseh While the charr players I know certainly do seem to be unusually outspoken, I think “frothing hordes” is steering hard towards hyperbole. The figures ANet published on the game’s 1-year anniversary showed that humans make up the largest proportion of characters by a massive margin, while charr were the smallest. (36% and 13% respectively, iirc, which would make for almost three human characters for every charr character.)

The thing is – Queens are replaceable. Elder Dragons are not. If Jennah had no line of succession planned to handle the possibility of her untimely demise, it’s a failure on her part.

@Angangseh: As a charr fan, I take offense to your statement, especially given that I don’t claim the humans are “evil” nor do I say the charr are “good” or “nothing they do is wrong”.

In fact, other than pure jest comments, I seldom see such things. Of course, charr NPCs would say just that because… who’s going to say “Hey! I’m evil! My enemies are good!”? Besides, neither side is really evil nor good. Both sides did their own atrocities.

@Sartharina: But her death would have still lead to any number of possible uprisings and civil wars that humanity – and in truth, all of Tyria – cannot handle.

I wouldn’t say that there’s no line of succession, just that the succession is clearly unfavorable. I don’t think there’s any question that in the absence of a royal, power would default to the Ministry, and that as head of the Ministry and champion of the nobles, Caudecus would receive the lion’s share of that power. Thing is, Caudecus is kinda a prick, and there’s nothing Jennah can do about that. She could designate an heir, I suppose, but without the blood royal, anyone she picked would have no legitimacy once she was gone, or so the Ministry would insist as they executed their coup. Producing an heir the natural way is a similar non-starter: any kid of Jennah’s would only get the rule if they were an adult when she died, otherwise the Ministry gets the regency and we get back once again to Caudecus being in charge.

And that was really the start of the issue. Per Logan during the Dead Sister storyline, after Jennah’s father died she was too young to take power, so the Ministry took it instead to ease the burden off of young Jennah. When she became old enough to govern Kryta on her own, the Ministry had to give that power they had for who-knows-how-long up, and to put it simply, they hated it and have been trying to get the power back ever since. Not all Ministers mind you – those like Minister Arton whom are loyal to Jennah are not working for Caudecus.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s also the issue for those who read the book of how Jennah ended up saving Logan’s behind, making them question if Logan was even needed in the first place.

It’s been a long time since I read the book, but doesn’t that reflect more on Jennah than it does on Logan? Logan only went to aid Jennah because (iirc) Jennah “summons” him using the mental/empathic link? If Logan wasn’t truly needed, it’s irresponsible of Jennah to luxuriously use that link when she knew he was on one of Tyria’s most important missions.

Angangseh.3754:

Honestly one of the problems i have with this game is how much it seems to punch humans in the stomach. Okay the empire’s in ruins, that i can live with and it adds a lot of plot hooks. However what i can’t live with are the frothing hordes of Charr fanboys who seem to think that Charr are the best race ever and that nothing they do is wrong while blatantly ignoring how they butchered their way throught the human empire, nearly brought about the end of the world and turned Ascalon into a fire-wreathed wasteland. Really hearing how they complain about how EVIIIIL the humans are is extremely annoying as humanity actually saved the world… MULTIPLE TIMES.
_

That was a pointless rant.
_

-Angangseh

Something interesting worth considering is that before the charr “retook” Ascalon (apparently it was their land first) the human kingdoms were butchering each other. That’s literally what the Guild Wars are – fighting between the three human kingdoms of Orr, Ascalon and Kryta. It wasn’t until the charr threatened to conquer all of humanity (regardless of their kingdoms) that the humans kinda started working together. As players it’s easy to think of the humans as all one group of people (as they supposedly are in GW2) but back in the time of GW1 you could argue two different human kingdoms (lets say Ascalon and Kryta) were very similar to the two different races (charr and humans) in GW2. Ultimately humanity’s greatest enemy was itself. Orr sank because of a human, Ascalon’s Foefire was because of a human. You mention how humans save the world numerous times in GW1, the main antagonist of all three campaigns was human – Khilbron, Shiro and Varesh, so humanity is saving the world… from humanity. During the expansion (EotN) the threat wasn’t human, but the forces that took it down weren’t exclusively human either.

As far as for how important Jennah is, I think people overstate it. The charr/human treaty is heavily bolstered by two of their iconic heroes and prominent leaders (Logan and Rytlock) and their close friends. Culturally the charr are heavily invested in working with the other races via the three Orders, so working with humans isn’t a “new idea”. Both races are fighting so many fights (dragons, centaurs, ghosts, ogres, Separatists, Bandits, Flame Legion, White Mantle etc) that taking on each other when they have so many shared enemies and shared military bodies must seem unappealing. If Jennah died tomorrow I think there would be some consequences, but ultimately I think both races would deal with it fine and even the treaty would work out.

I honestly think Caudecus would make a fine leader, for all his faults he gets stuff done. He’s corrupt and immoral in his methods but so much of his sabotage is because he wants to get into power. After taking power he wouldn’t need to sabotage the war with the centaurs – he does that to make Jennah look bad, he’s not going to make himself look bad. Just like Anise using illusionary body doubles to protect the queen makes her good at her job, Caudecus’ cunning and deceit would make him very effective in a leadership role. I wouldn’t trust him as an ally but as long as his interests aligned with mine, I would work with him. I sort of see Jennah as a Ned Stark type (from Game of Thrones). She’s a moral leader, but the world is too ugly of a place for leaders like that to stay in power for long, doing things the right way is going to get you killed eventually. Eventually the underhanded and dirty fighters would be one up on her (Anise hasn’t been demonstrated to be “evil” enough to have Jennah’s back on this stuff) and the only reason Jennah stays in power is because the writers give her plot armor.

That’s all assuming he takes power, there must be someone else who could claim the royal line (Commander Samuelsson in Ebonhawke has royal Ascalonian blood).

Back to the OP and Logan though, I agree, he didn’t run away, he ran too the queen’s aid. Good luck convincing the players of that, people poke fun at things like this (similar to Trahearne and Kormir) but eventually they take on a life of their own. The joke becomes the truth.

It does reflect poorly on Jennah, but also on Logan as to how people interpreted and argued it (hey, I’m not saying the arguments were logical!).

As to the charr having Ascalon “first” – this is untrue. The charr conquered it some time before humanity did – charr come from the east, off the map, and invaded into what’s now called the Blood Legion Homelands (homelands in this case not being point of origin, but where they lived for quite some time) and then south again. The only known native species to Ascalon are the grawl – whom were partially displaced into the Shiverpeaks when the charr took over – with heavy hints of dwarves being in the area.

So indications show that the charr took the land from dwarves first, and then humans took it from charr, and then charr from humans.

As to Wade taking over the Krytan throne? Won’t happen. He holds no power over Kryta and at most he’d just be “Regent of Kryta” like Jennah is presently the Regent of Ascalon. But Caudecus would have a stronger means of taking power than Wade Samuelsson does.

As for Caudecus being a good leader… I don’t find that likely. It takes a special brand of narrow, short-sighted, arrogant self-interest to deliberately sabotage your country just to advance your rank within it. He has deceit going for him, cunning, perhaps, but certainly not wisdom. To expand on your comparison- if Jennah is Ned Stark, Caudecus is Cersei Lannister. The sort of rule we see in A Feast for Crows is about what I’d expect if Caudecus ever took charge.

Vivuri.2710:

I don’t find weird so many people question if Logan was necessary in Ebonhawke. A problem is that most of the things people mention to say he made a difference there (such as how the queen needed him to buy time) are never explicitly stated, and are mostly left for speculation, while the effects of his abscence are clearly stated to have catastrophic results to Destiny’s Edge.

It’s not rubbed into our noses, no, but when you look at the way the fight turned out – when Logan arrived, the Branded were literally at the door of the keep that Jennah was within, with little to stop them if they succeeded at breaking down that door. Logan rallied the Ebon Vanguard to drive the Branded away from the door, then set the charr prisoners loose as reinforcements, and things were still looking bad when Jennah cast her illusion… but still not as bad as before Logan arrived.

Even ignoring the stressed point there, at a basic level we have two possible interpretations here. Either Jennah couldn’t create the illusion until she did because reasons, or Jennah chose to let people die while holding off for the “right time” because reasons. We can fill in for what those reasons are – but given that ArenaNet has established compassion and caring for others as one of Jennah’s traits, for her to coolly calculate when to unleash that illusion for maximum impact would be widely out of character, particularly since it’s not clear what she would gain by that.

It certainly isn’t compatible with the claim that Caudecus would make a better ruler because Jennah is Lawful Stupid to Ned Stark levels (which I will get to). Can’t have your cake and eat it to.

Vivuri.2710:

“Especially because they had been so close. Just a few moments more and the lance would have pierced the dragon’s heart, and Kralkatorrik would have died, and Snaff would have lived. A few moments that Logan could have given them.”

Those are Rytlock’s thoughts. Rytlock genuinely believed that given a few more moments, he would have speared Kralkatorrik’s heart.

However, he’s hardly an expert on elder dragon anatomy. What if he fumbled his attack and it bounced off Kralkatorrik’s scales instead? What if he scored a good hit, but it wasn’t a mortal blow? Not only are these things Rytlock couldn’t know, but neither could Glint – her prediction ability appears to be essentially Asimov-style psychohistory coupled with high-grade telepathy. Glint can predict the likely courses of events, but I don’t think she can account for random chance.

Shiren.9532:

If Jennah died tomorrow I think there would be some consequences, but ultimately I think both races would deal with it fine and even the treaty would work out.

The Order of Whispers disagrees with you. I assume they know their stuff better than we do on the outside looking in.

I honestly think Caudecus would make a fine leader, for all his faults he gets stuff done. He’s corrupt and immoral in his methods but so much of his sabotage is because he wants to get into power. After taking power he wouldn’t need to sabotage the war with the centaurs – he does that to make Jennah look bad, he’s not going to make himself look bad. Just like Anise using illusionary body doubles to protect the queen makes her good at her job, Caudecus’ cunning and deceit would make him very effective in a leadership role. I wouldn’t trust him as an ally but as long as his interests aligned with mine, I would work with him. I sort of see Jennah as a Ned Stark type (from Game of Thrones). She’s a moral leader, but the world is too ugly of a place for leaders like that to stay in power for long, doing things the right way is going to get you killed eventually. Eventually the underhanded and dirty fighters would be one up on her (Anise hasn’t been demonstrated to be “evil” enough to have Jennah’s back on this stuff) and the only reason Jennah stays in power is because the writers give her plot armor.

As I alluded to above, Jennah isn’t a Ned Stark type. Ned’s flaw was being Lawful Stupid to the level of behaving honorably to someone who he knew quite well would not offer him the same chance if their positions were switched (which they quickly were).

Jennah, on the other hand, cares for her people and is still a little inexperienced, but has shown the ability to be crafty. Consider Caudecus Manor story, for instance. I’m quite certain that Jennah is lying through her teeth when she said that Caudecus was innocent – Logan knew it, and Caudecus knew it (look at his response – there’s no fear in the “revelation” that the Seperatists were after him too, he’s simply been caught by surprise – he was probably expecting Jennah to side with Logan and getting ready for the ‘You can’t prove a thing’ spiel). Truth is, given the modifications made to the manor Caudecus was either in on it or he literally didn’t know what was going on in his own house (which puts the lie to the idea that he’s a hyper-competent administrator which would be a better ruler than Jennah due to said competence despite being a slimeball). However, instead of threatening him with a justice that probably wouldn’t get through the Ministry-controlled courts, Jennah puts Caudecus in a situation where he has a choice of accepting what is effectively house arrest, or de facto admitting that he was involved in high treason by asserting that he was in no danger.

If comparing to Game of Thrones characters, Jennah is a more experienced Daenerys. She genuinely cares for people, which causes her to make decisions that more ruthless individuals would deem tactically unsound, but she can definitely be sneaky and underhanded when the situation calls for it. You don’t need to be “evil enough”, as you put it, to get one over on the bad guys – just sneaky.

Regarding Caudecus – if sticking to GoT characters Cersei might be the closest, but I’ve always compared Caudecus to Palpatine in the prequels. It’s the same MO – manufacture crises to make the current administration look incompetent, so you can present yourself as the better alternative. And we know how THAT worked out. Someone who’s willing to sabotage their nation for their own ambition is not someone you want in power, however skilled they may be at intrigue and administration.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I wouldn’t say that there’s no line of succession, just that the succession is clearly unfavorable. I don’t think there’s any question that in the absence of a royal, power would default to the Ministry, and that as head of the Ministry and champion of the nobles, Caudecus would receive the lion’s share of that power. Thing is, Caudecus is kinda a prick, and there’s nothing Jennah can do about that. She could designate an heir, I suppose, but without the blood royal, anyone she picked would have no legitimacy once she was gone, or so the Ministry would insist as they executed their coup. Producing an heir the natural way is a similar non-starter: any kid of Jennah’s would only get the rule if they were an adult when she died, otherwise the Ministry gets the regency and we get back once again to Caudecus being in charge.

The line of succession if Jennah were to die while Logan is slaying Krat is Jennah → Ministry starts trying to put Caudecus on the throne → Logan, as leader of the Seraph, and declares Martial Law. Then they go to the Ascalon Catacombs, get Logan a fiery sword, and through the Right of Awesome, Dragonslaying, and Owning a Fancy Sword, becomes King of Kryta and Ascalon (This really is a right – just ask King Arthur).

With the fame and prestige from slaying the dragon, few would question Logan’s rightful rise to power. With him claiming the throne of Ascalon through his alliance with Charr, the Foefire gets dispelled, freeing up valuable alliance forces – And, there would be plenty of space for the Charr and Humans to share Ascalon and Kryta. Anyone dissenting with Logan’s rise to power in spite of his awesomeness answers to the Seraph and Blood Legion enforcers. If any Charr object to the alliance, or if Rytlock’s superiors take issue with the change in power, that is similarly revised and corrected – Destiny’s Edge acquires whatever trinket’s required to get Rytlock recognized as Khan Ur, and the might of DE destroys any opposition to Rytlock’s ascension.

One problem- with Logan heartsick over Jennah’s death, he’d never even care to try. He’d bury his grief by concentrating his efforts on helping the people he did save. Destiny’s Edge would rise to new heights even as Kryta fell into chaos.

Remember, without Jennah, Logan doesn’t give a skritt fart about the kingdom. He’s not a patriot, just head over heals in love. Without that, he’s a merc with a preference for working as far away from DR as he can get. He’d have no reason to dislike Caudecus, and no reason to intervene if/when public dissension devolves into tyranny or riots. On the other hand, killing Kralkatorrik could finally have given Eir the confidence boost to go after Jormag directly, so Logan (and Rytlock) would have plenty to keep him busy in the far reaches of the world.

Sartharina.3542:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I wouldn’t say that there’s no line of succession, just that the succession is clearly unfavorable. I don’t think there’s any question that in the absence of a royal, power would default to the Ministry, and that as head of the Ministry and champion of the nobles, Caudecus would receive the lion’s share of that power. Thing is, Caudecus is kinda a prick, and there’s nothing Jennah can do about that. She could designate an heir, I suppose, but without the blood royal, anyone she picked would have no legitimacy once she was gone, or so the Ministry would insist as they executed their coup. Producing an heir the natural way is a similar non-starter: any kid of Jennah’s would only get the rule if they were an adult when she died, otherwise the Ministry gets the regency and we get back once again to Caudecus being in charge.

The line of succession if Jennah were to die while Logan is slaying Krat is Jennah -> Ministry starts trying to put Caudecus on the throne -> Logan, as leader of the Seraph, and declares Martial Law. Then they go to the Ascalon Catacombs, get Logan a fiery sword, and through the Right of Awesome, Dragonslaying, and Owning a Fancy Sword, becomes King of Kryta and Ascalon (This really is a right – just ask King Arthur).

With the fame and prestige from slaying the dragon, few would question Logan’s rightful rise to power. With him claiming the throne of Ascalon through his alliance with Charr, the Foefire gets dispelled, freeing up valuable alliance forces – And, there would be plenty of space for the Charr and Humans to share Ascalon and Kryta. Anyone dissenting with Logan’s rise to power in spite of his awesomeness answers to the Seraph and Blood Legion enforcers. If any Charr object to the alliance, or if Rytlock’s superiors take issue with the change in power, that is similarly revised and corrected – Destiny’s Edge acquires whatever trinket’s required to get Rytlock recognized as Khan Ur, and the might of DE destroys any opposition to Rytlock’s ascension.

Careful, you might give them ideas for an Infinity Ball inspired April Fools.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

One problem- with Logan heartsick over Jennah’s death, he’d never even care to try. He’d bury his grief by concentrating his efforts on helping the people he did save. Destiny’s Edge would rise to new heights even as Kryta fell into chaos.

Remember, without Jennah, Logan doesn’t give a skritt fart about the kingdom. He’s not a patriot, just head over heals in love. Without that, he’s a merc with a preference for working as far away from DR as he can get. He’d have no reason to dislike Caudecus, and no reason to intervene if/when public dissension devolves into tyranny or riots. On the other hand, killing Kralkatorrik could finally have given Eir the confidence boost to go after Jormag directly, so Logan (and Rytlock) would have plenty to keep him busy in the far reaches of the world.

Nah. He gets bitter and vengeful over the death of Jenna, and refuses to let her kingdom wither and die, even if he has to turn it into a brutal militarized despotism to do so. :P

Or Rytlock and the rest of Destiny’s Edge kick his butt into gear and turn him into a Charr puppet ruler. Or just let humans get marginalized and form an alliance with the Centaur (Who seem to get along with the humans of Lion’s Arch just fine), and possibly other races the humans had kittened off from their expansionist entrance to the world.

My problem is how people accuse Logan of running away from everything… which he doesn’t. He had two bad options and picked one. Even Rytlock, once getting past his anger, states he understands. Doesn’t like it or agree with it, but understands.

Also, without Logan the Charr wouldn’t have fought. As I recall, it was ONLY because the Blood legion emblem Rytlock had gifted Logan they rallied to fight the branded instead of sitting in the cells.

But as others have said, it’s mostly people who never bother to think of the other side of the argument. What if Logan had stayed and Ebonhawke fallen? If Ebonhawke had fallen, the TWO known humans alive that could break the foefire would both be dead.

draxynnic.3719:

You don’t need to be “evil enough”, as you put it, to get one over on the bad guys – just sneaky.

I think that’s a myth we’ve been fed by decades of “good guy wins” stories.

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding Caudecus – if sticking to GoT characters Cersei might be the closest, but I’ve always compared Caudecus to Palpatine in the prequels. It’s the same MO – manufacture crises to make the current administration look incompetent, so you can present yourself as the better alternative. And we know how THAT worked out. Someone who’s willing to sabotage their nation for their own ambition is not someone you want in power, however skilled they may be at intrigue and administration.

Agreed you probably wouldn’t want Caudecus in power if you lived in Kryta, but it would make the story a lot more interesting imo. Krytan citizens would probably be worse off but it’s not the first time Tyria has a ruler that doesn’t do the best thing for the little people. Kisu and his Ministries were never particularly good at serving their people, Adelbern ended up cursing his remaining citizens with the Foefire but Caudecus and Jennah don’t face those problems. One of the biggest sore spots with the charr today is Ebonhawk and I suspect Caudecus would sooner cut it lose and be free from its political, and resource burden (unlike Jennah who holds onto it despite it being a sore spot for the charr and a drain on Krytan resources). On that political issue, Jennah’s morality becomes a weakness that being sneaky can’t just overcome without convenient plot points favouring her.

In the real world where many modern democracies are built on two opposing sides, the tactic of obstructionism (deliberately opposing the other side and ignoring bipartisan compromises) is actually very effective and while it is very unpopular with voters when identified as such, it can contribute to the downfall of otherwise good governments and the rise of the other side. Once in power, the side in power become much more productive. It’s different from funding the enemy and getting your own people killed, but in heightened fantasy there are parallels to be made. I don’t think Caudecus would be as bad a ruler as people think, but I’ve dragged this thread off-topic enough (besides, Jennah will rule Kryta until they turn the servers off). Feel free to throw in the last word though.

Kalavier.1097:

But as others have said, it’s mostly people who never bother to think of the other side of the argument. What if Logan had stayed and Ebonhawke fallen? If Ebonhawke had fallen, the TWO known humans alive that could break the foefire would both be dead.

I think the bigger consequence would be players end up with one less dragon to fight, how much would that suck? Then again, at the speed the game is progressing, unless the “campaigns” deal with two dragons at the same time, we are approaching two years in and a second campaign against the dragons hasn’t begun. Arguably we’ve lost ground with the introduction of a new dragon.

Who are the two known humans? I’m guessing Jennah because of her royal blood (the legend says a King but how stupid would it be if the curse required a male?) and the only other person of royal blood in GW2 is Commander Samuelsson (who I guess was also in Ebonhawk when it was attacked?). The most obvious interpretation of the legend to end the curse of the Foefire would be Logan and Jennah’s son (rightful King of Ascalon implies the Ascalon royal line over the Krytan one, even if they are all descendent from Doric – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tyrian_Royalty_family_tree), but knowing GW2 writing Jennah would be the “King” that ends the curse. For all we know the legend is nonsense and the end to the Foefire curse will be brought about by Detha, Zojja and Yorix with their ghost busting, curse lifting magitech.

If the argument comes down to Jennah’s rule vs Kralkatorrik’s death and the unity of Destiny’s Edge, I personally side with killing the Elder Dragon, saving DE and possibly even Glint. I think what we got was more interesting.

Side Note: How do Zephyrites view Logan and Jennah?

Quick bit on Glint- Logan’s presence would have done absolutely nothing for her. She was entirely beyond the help of any of DE, save a couple of distractions provided by Eir.

Adelbern wasn’t of the line of Doric. Barridan was. Wade Samuelsson likely is from the Duke’s line, and thus can end the foefire.

Also, Kralks death would still leave the brand there. Ascalon would be damaged regardless, Ebonhawke destroyed, the entire known royal lines destroyed (Besides the sister/brother of the prince who was crowned in sea of sorrow’s, unless they had no children or said children weren’t in line for the crown. OoW implies there to be another in line for the throne.

I’ll go with "Saving the royal lines, Ebonhawke, getting solid peace between humanity and the Charr, and all the tech that came about from that. over “Jennah and the ascalon line dead, Ebonhawke destroyed, peace between humanity and charr questionable, but HEY, we have five heroes alive…” (Kryta and Charr had somewhat a peace, but it could be labeled more as a “Neither can actually wage war on the other.” then peace peace).

Adelbern was of Doric’s line, just a lesser branch.

Shiren.9532:

draxynnic.3719:

You don’t need to be “evil enough”, as you put it, to get one over on the bad guys – just sneaky.

I think that’s a myth we’ve been fed by decades of “good guy wins” stories.

While I think that the idea that you have to be evil to succeed is a myth that is propagated by people who want to justify their own sociopathy.

Now, let’s be realistic here – being able to meet underhanded behaviour with your own is a desirable trait for a leader. Even more important is understanding that sometimes whatever you do, people are going to get hurt, and you have to chart the course that results in the least harm even if some of the harm is a direct result of your own (in)actions.

But there’s a big difference between a good person who can make hard decisions when they have to, and somebody who is willing to deliberately sabotage their own nation to advance their ambition. Jennah is, I think, in the first category. Caudecus is GW2’s poster child for the second.

(Now, maybe this is a case of having different definitions for ‘evil’ here, and our disagreement here is whether Jennah has the capacity to make those hard decisions. I think she does, although it’s harder to point at any one example as indisputable evidence, particularly since in many such cases different people will have different ideas of what the right decision is)

When it comes to ‘making things more interesting’ – I don’t think that’s a good yardstick for whether a character’s decisions were right or wrong. The Cataclysm has certainly made things more interesting, but I don’t think anyone is going to say Khilbron should be applauded because of it (at best, he was someone who took a gamble and lost badly).

Regarding the political analogy – I’m one of the voters who’ll reject a party who’s obstructionist for the sake of being obstructionist. Now, a distinction does have to be made between being obstructing legislature because you genuinely disagree with it and obstructionism, but I don’t think a party who’ll obstruct good legislature now just to make the current government look bad is one that will provide good leadership when in power… and my experience with observing politics in my own country has largely proven that to be right.

Despite what it might say in any of the books, I highly doubt Logan being present would of had any affect on the outcome of the battle with the dragon. I mean, do you see how incompetent these guys are in the story missions? We had to use giant cannons to kill Zhaitan and people think having however many of these clowns will do anything towards that juggernaut of a dragon? I stand by Logan’s decision, because it actually had a positive outcome for the humans.

The books are the more ‘canon’ depiction. DE is so laughably incompetent in dungeons for purely gameplay reasons, so coming onto this forum we pretend that they can keep pace with us. As for the fight, Logan wasn’t there to face down Kralkatorrik- only Glint and Rytlock were supposed to get anywhere near him.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Adelbern was of Doric’s line, just a lesser branch.

He wasn’t of a royal line at all. Hence the “Loyalists” in pre-searing who wanted to get Barridan back on the throne, because the duke was of the actual royal line and Adelbern was not.

I’ve never seen anything saying Adelbern was of Doric’s line…

“Descended from the great King Doric, King Adelbern is well-liked by the citizens of Ascalon.” That’s right in the Prophecies manual, and took me no time at all to find. The Loyalists wanted Barradin on the throne because he was the closest blood relative of the last king, not because he was the only person with Doric’s blood.

Then I missed that :P. but I do recall how it was a major thing when Adelbern took the throne because he was NOT of the royal line/at all related to the throne, while Barradin was actually in the royal family.

Kalavier.1097:

Then I missed that :P. but I do recall how it was a major thing when Adelbern took the throne because he was NOT of the royal line/at all related to the throne, while Barradin was actually in the royal family.

Yeah, and it does seem odd to me that any descendant of Doric’s would have ended up a commoner. But there you have it.

Kalavier.1097:

Then I missed that :P. but I do recall how it was a major thing when Adelbern took the throne because he was NOT of the royal line/at all related to the throne, while Barradin was actually in the royal family.

The issue was that he was not the “rightful king” – in that, he wasn’t the previous king’s heir – not that he wasn’t of royal lineage. He was a commoner, but with traceable ties to Doric (this is little different from Shiro Tagachi, whom was a commoner but was able to trace his family back to Kaineng Tah, the first emperor of Cantha). It’s likely that Adelbern’s ancestors split off of the royal family into a noble house and at some point in the line, lost their fortune. It’s not unheard of.

I think the real reason Rytlock’s so bitter about Logan’s choice was primarily jealousy – Logan was pursuing/protecting a childish infatuation instead of sticking true to and beside his True Love.

“His true love” meaning… what?

Anet has confirmed Logan and Jennah are truly in love.

I think Sartharina was suggesting that Rytlock felt that he should have been Logan’s True Love.

While I’d put it differently, it’s probably not actually that far off the mark. Warbands can be more important than mates to the charr. Rytlock seems to have never really gotten on well with the Stone warband, and Destiny’s Edge, starting with Logan and Caithe, seems like it was a better warband for Rytlock than the Stone warband ever was. From Rytlock’s perspective, Logan abandoning the team – however good or bad his reasons were – led to the loss of the family that Rytlock never had in his official charr warband.

Come to think on it, this is probably a good explanation for Rytlock’s treatment of Rox – tradition and charr pride means he’s not going to come out and say it directly, but he might have figured that Rox will be happier with the multiracial “warband” she’s already formed than trying to fit in with the Stones, and is subtly trying to push Rox in that direction.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kalavier.1097:

Then I missed that :P. but I do recall how it was a major thing when Adelbern took the throne because he was NOT of the royal line/at all related to the throne, while Barradin was actually in the royal family.

The issue was that he was not the “rightful king” – in that, he wasn’t the previous king’s heir – not that he wasn’t of royal lineage. He was a commoner, but with traceable ties to Doric (this is little different from Shiro Tagachi, whom was a commoner but was able to trace his family back to Kaineng Tah, the first emperor of Cantha). It’s likely that Adelbern’s ancestors split off of the royal family into a noble house and at some point in the line, lost their fortune. It’s not unheard of.

Or it’s just a case of being far enough away from the lines of inheritance (such as by having a lot of youngest sons in the family line) that they didn’t get enough wealth to live a noble lifestyle, and after a few generations it just became silly continuing to claim nobility on the basis of being sixth cousins twice removed of the local baron.

Alternatively, it could be a legitimacy issue – after all, Salma and her descendents would probably have lived out their lives as commoners if the rest of Kryta’s royal house hadn’t disappeared during the charr invasion.

I don’t recall seeing him interact with the stone warband a lot… was that in Edge of Destiny?

I can buy the “Felt like he was abandoning the team for what could be seen as a crush.” but not the “true love” thing. To me that goes into awkward and weird fans making two characters into couples that really aren’t :P

Either way, I’ve bet Samualson is from Barridan’s line, not Adelberns.

There weren’t any direct interactions, but I think Rytlock makes the occasional reference in Edge of Destiny about how he doesn’t really fit in with his official warband. That’s part of the reason he has a tendency to be on independent assignments all the time – the Stone warband gets kudos for having the famous Rytlock Brimstone technically be a member, but he’s only really a member in name.

There was also a recent interview where it’s indicated that part of the conflict between Rox’s eagerness and Rytlock’s indifference is that to Rytlock being a member of the Stone warband just isn’t a big deal, while as a gladium, finding a warband is a big deal to Rox.

And I’d agree that Samuelson is more likely from Barradin’s line, but my money would actually be on him being a descendent of neither but from a third line (which is nevertheless closer to Barradin than Adelbern).

I think Rox has mentioned that mostly the stone warband does paperwork/office related leadership tasks in the blood legion, so that might partly be why Rytlock doesn’t get along with them well. But I don’t recall exactly.

Crossplay.2067:

Actually, it’s not so much about Logan as how people see him. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t like him as a character because he’s too wholesome, straight-laced and illogically smitten. However, I can’t see why everyone goes along with the idea that he, “ran away” during the Kralkatorrik fight.

I understand Rytlock claiming Logan did because he was hurt by Logan leaving but Logan left a well-prepped situation that was becoming dangerous to go to a situation that was already dangerous that no one expected. How is that running away?

Crossplay,

I also had issues with how Logan was treated by the public (both NPCs and Players) from very early in the game. In April of last year my Literary Muse graced me with the following verse which helped to shine a slightly different shade of light on Logan’s situation. I hope you enjoy it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/fangen/The-Comic-Tragedy-of-Logan-Thackeray/first#post2662799

P.S. I am in no way a Loreist or very good Linguist for that matter so if any of you learned ones find mistakes in the above submission, it was written over a year ago. What’s done is done. Moving on.

Ceridwen.6703:

draxynnic.3719:

Second, we don’t know for sure that Logan’s presence would have meant Kralkatorrik’s death.

Enter Ceridwen

I’m pretty sure he’s just decorative. I’ve seen him fight. He seems to enjoy lying down on the floor a lot.

As you were with the proper discussion.

Exeunt

Haven’t had him do that in my personal story unless I’m taking a dirt nap too. So far that only happened dealing with Doc Howler once.

He tanked that corrupt Ministry Guard leader like a champ, though. Not to mention some work in a centaur slave camp.

He’s quite a bit less effective in the dungeons (except, of course, the super-dome in CoF story) – but that’s the case with all of the iconics. There’s a fine line between the AI overshadowing a party of five PCs and the AI (which has little if any competance in avoiding damage) and ArenaNet seemed to have erred on the side of ‘too weak’.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Haven’t had him do that in my personal story unless I’m taking a dirt nap too. So far that only happened dealing with Doc Howler once.

He tanked that corrupt Ministry Guard leader like a champ, though. Not to mention some work in a centaur slave camp.

Oi, leave it out with the being sensible and stuff! I was merely having the tiniest of grins. The tiniest, I say! :P