Guild Wars 2

Now that the Sylvari is the dragon’s minion theory is true, I got a question.

Did the idea that the Sylvari being Modremoth’s minion came before the theory was created or after it?

I hate to say it, I doubt you’re going to get an answer. My hunch is they had a loose concept of it, as it’s been hinted since day one, like with CoE and what not. Since GW2 was originally thought of, they’ve shifted writers and what not. CoE shows that clearly their were six Elder Dragons, which seems to fix in a theme of six regions of power, six gods, etc. It would be interesting to know if the chicken or the egg came first, but judging the shift from GW1 to GW2, I doubt there’s a black and white answer.

One last thing, the Pale Tree was said to come from a cave guarded by plant creatures :P That’s been known for awhile.

Did Anet ever answer such a question?

So i think they never will tell you/us, though i admit i am curious as well.

If we repeat often enough that they will never answer this question, we might be able to bait them into answering it anyway, just to prove us wrong. Reverse psychology for the win!

Ha I did it!

Thanks Angel!

ye the previous version on the Sylvari was gazillion times better they are just tree i like elf’s i loved them before

And there you have it, the various hints were intentional most likely :P

and I’ll say it again. sylvari being dragon minions is incredibly stupid.

A Massive Headache.1879:

and I’ll say it again. sylvari being dragon minions is incredibly stupid, and I’m kind of surprised mccoys work was taken seriously.

Your comment is going to get removed, but before that happens. I agree. As far as compelling plot ideas go, this is not one.

Piece of advice to the writers. Not everything needs to revolve around the dragons. Your world begins to look very two dimensional when almost every single piece of lore we have in game in some ways ties back to the elder dragons (The Mursaat, The Seers, The Dwarves, Scarlet, The Gods…). We get that they are the big bad and are super important, but too much of one thing gets very old. You’re also tampering with lore that a lot of people love and making it seem rather trivial because you know what ‘dragons did it’.

WOW! What can I say?

Mind. Blown. The revelation that they come from Mordremoth finally satisfies my long standing curiosity about the origins of the sylvari race. I must return to the theory-crafting drawing-board for more crack-pot theories!

A Massive Headache.1879:

and I’ll say it again. sylvari being dragon minions is incredibly stupid, and I’m kind of surprised mccoys work was taken seriously.

What males you assume that it was Angel’s idea to have the sylvari be dragon minions?

FlamingFoxx.1305:

A Massive Headache.1879:

and I’ll say it again. sylvari being dragon minions is incredibly stupid, and I’m kind of surprised mccoys work was taken seriously.

Your comment is going to get removed, but before that happens. I agree. As far as compelling plot ideas go, this is not one.

I don’t see why it should be, this as a story plot is a joke. then again, I don’t know why I care about the games lore anymore, when it also is a joke anymore.

A long with the blessings of the other writers. Group effort.

I’m curious as to how that knowledge affects sylvari players as Wynne’s death occured before our awakening.

For those that don’t know sylvari lore, knowledge gained through the life span of a sylvari is passed down to future generations upon death. So her secret wasn’t really a secret anymore after the sacrifice.

I’m actually surprised there is no real internal strife of self identity with a lot of sylvari around the world as Wynne’s death was quite early through the sylvari existence span even by those under the ventari tablet.

Unless the entirety of sylvari lore of their biological operations and well everything else was thrown out the window.

It’s possible that the Pale Tree was able to sequester that information, or that Wynne was able to prevent it from going back into the Dream somehow (Caithe suspects that it was Wynne’s Wyld Hunt to protect that information, and Wyld Hunts come from the Dream, so it’s possible that the Dream itself chose not to pass on the information).

Now to see how it is the sylvari got the connection to the Dream that appears to be protecting them…

I liked it and a bunch of people seemed to like it. GW2 was always about dragons — look at its logo — and circling most things back to them is not terrible writing. Whether the story is compelling or not remains to be seen. I think it’s a great idea to work an expansion around.

They were immune to zhaitan’s corruption and super-effected by mordremoth’s.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I’m curious as to how that knowledge affects sylvari players as Wynne’s death occured before our awakening.

For those that don’t know sylvari lore, knowledge gained through the life span of a sylvari is passed down to future generations upon death. So her secret wasn’t really a secret anymore after the sacrifice.

I’m actually surprised there is no real internal strife of self identity with a lot of sylvari around the world as Wynne’s death was quite early through the sylvari existence span even by those under the ventari tablet.

Unless the entirety of sylvari lore of their biological operations and well everything else was thrown out the window.

i can only quote wiki here

“The Dream is described as being like a well, into which memories and thoughts of sylvari are poured. The portion of knowledge taken from the dream is like that of a bowl filling with water – each developing sylvari only takes a small measure of the information and memories. The Pale Tree herself ensures that each sylvari is then equipped with essential information, such as how to read, basic living skills, the tenets of the Tablet, and the assurance that she loves each of them.”

I for one think that even if Sylvari coming from a dragon (even if indirectly) was somewhat predictable it is actually something I am looking forward to them exploring more in whatever is coming up with Mordy.

One way to put it is that it is kind of bold move, I see why people might not like it, but I also see the opportunities associated with it. Namely how the position of the sylvari in the world will change as a result of this secret and rytlocks quote from the trailer is something I am very much looking forward to as a result (same for Canach).

Whether this is “stupid” or not in my opinion comes down to how they follow up on it. It could be interesting or it could be dull but just from what we have seen I will still hold judgement and be optimistic. If in part because the patch was genuinely great and while parts of it predictable others went into shades of grey I did not expect from this game at all.

saurus.8290:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I’m curious as to how that knowledge affects sylvari players as Wynne’s death occured before our awakening.

For those that don’t know sylvari lore, knowledge gained through the life span of a sylvari is passed down to future generations upon death. So her secret wasn’t really a secret anymore after the sacrifice.

I’m actually surprised there is no real internal strife of self identity with a lot of sylvari around the world as Wynne’s death was quite early through the sylvari existence span even by those under the ventari tablet.

Unless the entirety of sylvari lore of their biological operations and well everything else was thrown out the window.

i can only quote wiki here

“The Dream is described as being like a well, into which memories and thoughts of sylvari are poured. The portion of knowledge taken from the dream is like that of a bowl filling with water – each developing sylvari only takes a small measure of the information and memories. The Pale Tree herself ensures that each sylvari is then equipped with essential information, such as how to read, basic living skills, the tenets of the Tablet, and the assurance that she loves each of them.”

Found the page, though it doesn’t say she is able to usurp any unwanted information from pooling or going out let alone completely deflect the influence of nightmare within the dream as each sylvari is born, also evidenced by the fact that the nightmare court exists in the first place.

Almost like a mother who ensures that her child has the lunch, the homework done, and the books before she/he goes to school but can’t really stop the influence from bad kids let alone stop her child from doing bad things in his/her own right based on potential habits passed down from generation to generation in the family, she can only do her best to be a good mother.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

A Massive Headache.1879:

and I’ll say it again. sylvari being dragon minions is incredibly stupid, and I’m kind of surprised mccoys work was taken seriously.

Your comment is going to get removed, but before that happens. I agree. As far as compelling plot ideas go, this is not one.

I agree… maybe in the future they will shock us and not everything will be connected to dragons but for now its not that compelling when everything points in one direction.

It’s possible that she can block some things but not others. Wynne is a single individual with one secret that the Pale Tree really did not want to get out – it’s probably much easier to block the memory of a specific sylvari with a single secret (particularly when that sylvari doesn’t want it to come out) than an army of sylvari all deliberately bombarding the Dream with negative emotions.

It’s possible that the Pale Tree even pre-emptively blocked Wynne’s knowledge, and Wynne knew this.

To draw an analogy, imagine you’re defending a soccer goal. On the one hand, you have a single person who doesn’t really want to score a goal rolling the ball gently towards you. That’s easy to stop. Now, imagine an entire team, each with their own ball, kicking and throwing their balls at you and then immediately looking for a new ball to throw at the ball. Some of that’s going to slip through.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

A Massive Headache.1879:

and I’ll say it again. sylvari being dragon minions is incredibly stupid, and I’m kind of surprised mccoys work was taken seriously.

Your comment is going to get removed, but before that happens. I agree. As far as compelling plot ideas go, this is not one.

Piece of advice to the writers. Not everything needs to revolve around the dragons. Your world begins to look very two dimensional when almost every single piece of lore we have in game in some ways ties back to the elder dragons (The Mursaat, The Seers, The Dwarves, Scarlet, The Gods…). We get that they are the big bad and are super important, but too much of one thing gets very old. You’re also tampering with lore that a lot of people love and making it seem rather trivial because you know what ‘dragons did it’.

For years before GW2 was released, it was well known that the story would revolve around the elder dragons. Now over two years into the story, you write to let Anet know their story is stupid.

I’m not convinced that ANet are the stupid ones. After all, you bought this game knowing that the story would be centered around the dragons. IF you thought the idea was stupid, why did you buy the game?

I remember one npc conversation in one of the outposts in caledon that made me suspicious since launch where the human discusses why they need to be there n why they have to teach the sylvari when they have knowledge that exceeds the older races :P

DarcShriek.5829:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

A Massive Headache.1879:

and I’ll say it again. sylvari being dragon minions is incredibly stupid, and I’m kind of surprised mccoys work was taken seriously.

Your comment is going to get removed, but before that happens. I agree. As far as compelling plot ideas go, this is not one.

Piece of advice to the writers. Not everything needs to revolve around the dragons. Your world begins to look very two dimensional when almost every single piece of lore we have in game in some ways ties back to the elder dragons (The Mursaat, The Seers, The Dwarves, Scarlet, The Gods…). We get that they are the big bad and are super important, but too much of one thing gets very old. You’re also tampering with lore that a lot of people love and making it seem rather trivial because you know what ‘dragons did it’.

For years before GW2 was released, it was well known that the story would revolve around the elder dragons. Now over two years into the story, you write to let Anet know their story is stupid.

I’m not convinced that ANet are the stupid ones. After all, you bought this game knowing that the story would be centered around the dragons. IF you thought the idea was stupid, why did you buy the game?

I’ll be blunt and assume you’re not a writer. Or maybe just a novice hobby one. Because it’s rather clear what the advice was about.

There’s a HUGE difference about ‘centered around dragon’s and taking every little thing in the game and say ‘gasp! Dragons did it/relate to it!’

The first just makes the main plot dragons.
The latter which Foxx referred to, takes the depth out of everything. It’s basically ‘Abaddon did it’ all over again, except absolutely everything ties to the dragons instead. Yes dragons are the main-plot, but if you link everything to them it kinda takes layers out of all side-plots that make up the world. There’s enough good side-stories in GW2 that can (and IMO should) be independent of the dragons.

Yes but considering how well players accept dragons as the big bad menace behind everything, I doubt you could make a well-written game which would be accepted as well-written in that regard.

Players need their antagonists in-your-face, or they think the story is bad. Despite you know… it actually being good, in those cases.

DarcShriek.5829:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

A Massive Headache.1879:

and I’ll say it again. sylvari being dragon minions is incredibly stupid, and I’m kind of surprised mccoys work was taken seriously.

Your comment is going to get removed, but before that happens. I agree. As far as compelling plot ideas go, this is not one.

Piece of advice to the writers. Not everything needs to revolve around the dragons. Your world begins to look very two dimensional when almost every single piece of lore we have in game in some ways ties back to the elder dragons (The Mursaat, The Seers, The Dwarves, Scarlet, The Gods…). We get that they are the big bad and are super important, but too much of one thing gets very old. You’re also tampering with lore that a lot of people love and making it seem rather trivial because you know what ‘dragons did it’.

For years before GW2 was released, it was well known that the story would revolve around the elder dragons. Now over two years into the story, you write to let Anet know their story is stupid.

I’m not convinced that ANet are the stupid ones. After all, you bought this game knowing that the story would be centered around the dragons. IF you thought the idea was stupid, why did you buy the game?

The dragons aren’t the problem. it’s that the story telling is just plain awful.

Funny how people seems to have an issue with everything (which is not even the case) being about the Dragons and yet the same people usually praise how good Guild Wars 1 was. Despite everything (and that was basically actually everything) was about Abaddon.

ElysianEternity.6215:

I’ll be blunt and assume you’re not a writer. Or maybe just a novice hobby one. Because it’s rather clear what the advice was about.

There’s a HUGE difference about ‘centered around dragon’s and taking every little thing in the game and say ‘gasp! Dragons did it/relate to it!’

Every little thing in the game isn’t related to dragons. The Inquest, the Flame Legion, the Foefire, the Mist War, the Krytan Political Situation? None of that goes back to the dragons and only to the dragons. And they’re all pretty darn fine threads of work too.

. . . what happened here is a case of “we got what we asked for”. We asked for more focus on the dragons we were supposed to be fighting after LS1 wrapped. Maybe even a bit before when people were highly bored with “Scarlet did it”. Guess whaaaaaaat? Now we got Mordremoth going out and being active.

Some asked for some insight into what happened to Ceara to make Scarlet so bonkers-nuts. Hey, guess what? Now we see what happened, and have an idea of it being a form of dragon corruption like the one Seraph had happen to him . . .

Don’t hastily push it on ANet – players asked for it and we got it. I wish the segments of the journal were a bit thicker and not so . . . thin . . . but it’s written and working better than LS1 was so far.

lordkrall.7241:

Funny how people seems to have an issue with everything (which is not even the case) being about the Dragons and yet the same people usually praise how good Guild Wars 1 was. Despite everything (and that was basically actually everything) was about Abaddon.

Factions wasn’t about Abaddon, it was about Shiro’s attempt to return to life from being an Envoy. That was really the whole plot – Abaddon kicked it off by planting the seeds in his head but he didn’t FORCE Shiro and Shiro didn’t serve him until he was sent to the Realm of Torment.

Debatably, Prophecies wasn’t about Abaddon either . . . but then it changed stories about four or five times through the course of the campaign.

Lastly, Eye of the North was not about Abaddon. At all.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ElysianEternity.6215:

I’ll be blunt and assume you’re not a writer. Or maybe just a novice hobby one. Because it’s rather clear what the advice was about.

There’s a HUGE difference about ‘centered around dragon’s and taking every little thing in the game and say ‘gasp! Dragons did it/relate to it!’

Every little thing in the game isn’t related to dragons. The Inquest, the Flame Legion, the Foefire, the Mist War, the Krytan Political Situation? None of that goes back to the dragons and only to the dragons. And they’re all pretty darn fine threads of work too.

. . . what happened here is a case of “we got what we asked for”. We asked for more focus on the dragons we were supposed to be fighting after LS1 wrapped. Maybe even a bit before when people were highly bored with “Scarlet did it”. Guess whaaaaaaat? Now we got Mordremoth going out and being active.

Some asked for some insight into what happened to Ceara to make Scarlet so bonkers-nuts. Hey, guess what? Now we see what happened, and have an idea of it being a form of dragon corruption like the one Seraph had happen to him . . .

Don’t hastily push it on ANet – players asked for it and we got it. I wish the segments of the journal were a bit thicker and not so . . . thin . . . but it’s written and working better than LS1 was so far.

Narrative design by committee is not a good idea. Ever. If they were confident that the story they were writing was compelling and interesting, then they wouldn’t need to pander to their audience complaining that they aren’t doing x or revealing enough about x. The fact that people have had to complain about these things so much is itself problematic, but if they’ve based any of their story decisions around what their audience is asking for, rather than what is relevant to the story, then that sort of suggests that they aren’t very competent at telling a compelling story.

“The Inquest, the Flame Legion, the Foefire, the Mist War, the Krytan Political Situation? None of that goes back to the dragons and only to the dragons. And they’re all pretty darn fine threads of work too. "

It’s not the original storyline or content that is at issue here. It’s everything from Season 1 or the living story onwards. The initial game release did a really good job of presenting a compelling world that did not revolve around the dragons. We could feel the impact of the dragons encroaching on the world, and they were certainly a presence, but there were a lot of story steps that focused on things outside of that.

The issue is that a lot of the larger story releases from the living story have revolved around the dragons, setting things up for the dragons, and taking original lore from GW1 and making it clear to the players that that to was really about the dragons. I’m not saying they’ve done it with everything. But they’ve done it with a significant number of things. Enough for it to be noticeable, and enough for their world to no longer feel like it has any ability to stand on its own outside of their dragon-centric storyline.

It’s bad storytelling, no matter how you spin it.

I have some confidence that HoT is actually going to be MARKEDLY better than the living story, because the people who have been working on it are most likely not the same writers who have been doing the living story.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Factions wasn’t about Abaddon, it was about Shiro’s attempt to return to life from being an Envoy. That was really the whole plot – Abaddon kicked it off by planting the seeds in his head but he didn’t FORCE Shiro and Shiro didn’t serve him until he was sent to the Realm of Torment.

Debatably, Prophecies wasn’t about Abaddon either . . . but then it changed stories about four or five times through the course of the campaign.

Lastly, Eye of the North was not about Abaddon. At all.

The whole story about Shiro is very tied into Abaddon being behind it. The whole attack on the Emperor part of the story (which basically created the whole premises for Factions) were done by having Abaddon send a servant to corrupt and use Shiro.

Much of Prophecies can be seen as tied to Abaddon as well. One of the main things being the fact that the Door led directly into his domain. Not to mention the Titans, that were his minions which made the Charr destroy Ascalon with the Searing, thus setting the whole story into action.

The only actual part of Guild Wars 1 that didn’t have connections to Abaddon would have been Eye of the North (which many people keep claiming was the worst of Guild Wars 1), due to it rather setting the stage for Guild Wars 2 rather than continuing the Guild Wars 1 story.

@Tobias Trueflight

Every little other thing as in every little other side-story linking to them.

The Inquest doesn’t have a side-story. The Mist War is hardly a story either (yet?)
I’d hold my breath on the foefire and kryta’s political situation because either still could link to the dragons with the direction Anet is taking. (Example, Political strife caused by > White Mantle > Mursaat > possibly dragons)

Point is, there are a few things like the Flame legion as example (which burnt out …ahaha im punny) that didn’t have to do anything with the dragon at all.
Hence the warning of not linking them in the future.
Like, the Flame legion starting to worship Primordus or the krait prophets being dragon champions, or stuff like that. Yeah.

It’s not about what currently is, but about what will be since this smells like a trend right now.

lordkrall.7241:

Funny how people seems to have an issue with everything (which is not even the case) being about the Dragons and yet the same people usually praise how good Guild Wars 1 was. Despite everything (and that was basically actually everything) was about Abaddon.

It didn’t really become all about abaddon until nightfall, which is why story wise, that’s my least favorite campaign. Gw2 it’s all just right off the bat, dragons this dragons that. Furthermore, there were sub stories going on that you could do to take a break from that. Sure, some of the events do the same, but on a seemingly much smaller scale.

lordkrall.7241:

The whole story about Shiro is very tied into Abaddon being behind it. The whole attack on the Emperor part of the story (which basically created the whole premises for Factions) were done by having Abaddon send a servant to corrupt and use Shiro.

. . . but it’s not about Abaddon. It’s about Shiro Tagachi, the Betrayer, and his goals. Not Abaddon’s, his own. To be mortal flesh again.

Much of Prophecies can be seen as tied to Abaddon as well. One of the main things being the fact that the Door led directly into his domain. Not to mention the Titans, that were his minions which made the Charr destroy Ascalon with the Searing, thus setting the whole story into action.

But again, the story was rarely about those things, it tended to float. It’s about the resistance of Ascalon in the face of the Searing. No, wait, now it’s about the Prince-in-Exile and his refugees . . . no, wait now it’s about the White Mantle and Shining Blade . . . no, wait, now it’s about seeking Ascension so you can combat the Mursaat . . . no, wait, it’s about . . .

Do you see why I often refer to Prophecies as “barely a singular story”? And while the end chapters may potentially be said to be linked to Abaddon’s will through the Lich? Earlier it’s all about mortals, later it’s about the Mursaat’s catspaw in Kryta and how to break the Mantle . . . it’s not even definitively about Abaddon’s minions (Titans) until the Door of Komalie is shown to open and let them out.

It’s not as strong a link as you want to make it.

The only actual part of Guild Wars 1 that didn’t have connections to Abaddon would have been Eye of the North (which many people keep claiming was the worst of Guild Wars 1), due to it rather setting the stage for Guild Wars 2 rather than continuing the Guild Wars 1 story.

The worst of Guild Wars 1 was Prophecies, from where I stand. Mostly because as I pointed out above . . . it’s a lot of arcs welded together clumsily to take the players from point A to B to C and draw them through all the locations the campaign wants to show off. And it’s clear even later it’s a primer for playing PvP in several places by slowly introducing elements into play.

Honestly, if Prophecies had to be about any one thing it’s about getting led around by the plot because the plot says so.

ElysianEternity.6215:

@Tobias Trueflight
Every little other thing as in every little other side-story linking to them.

You’re going to need to help me as to how the Southsun Cove events linked to dragons. Or how the Whispers plotline where you have to rescue Demmi Beetlestone for her knowledge of what her father is doing connects to dragons.

Sure, you can go ahead and say “I’m sure it will later down the line” but that’s easily refuted by going “I’m sure it won’t later down the line” due to having exactly the same weight behind it. Heck, Demmi is completely forgotten by now . . .

The Inquest doesn’t have a side-story.

Yes they do. They’re trying to subvert, or keep subverted, Rata Sum’s Arcane Council so they can pretty much do whatever they want and nobody’s got clout to put a stop to it. Not even Zojja.

The Mist War is hardly a story either (yet?)

But it has lore, and it has no connections to dragons. MAYBE to the Six Gods, or the Spirits of the Wild.

I’d hold my breath on the foefire and kryta’s political situation because either still could link to the dragons with the direction Anet is taking. (Example, Political strife caused by > White Mantle > Mursaat > possibly dragons)

That can easily be spun the other way, regardless – the White Mantle is backing the bandits who were at Fort Vandal and Prosperity. The only thing to do with dragons is being forced out of there by what’s going on . . . and possibly forced to move up their timeline to act. But it’s not about dragons, it’s about “taking back Kryta”.

It’s not about what currently is, but about what will be since this smells like a trend right now.

Yeah, but we don’t know what will be in regards to a lot of topics. Frankly, give me two days and I could probably divorce the dragons entirely out of the game starting after Mordremoth is defeated. I’ll even give you a hint how it starts – Rata Sum goes boom.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ElysianEternity.6215:

@Tobias Trueflight
Every little other thing as in every little other side-story linking to them.

You’re going to need to help me as to how the Southsun Cove events linked to dragons. Or how the Whispers plotline where you have to rescue Demmi Beetlestone for her knowledge of what her father is doing connects to dragons.

Sure, you can go ahead and say “I’m sure it will later down the line” but that’s easily refuted by going “I’m sure it won’t later down the line” due to having exactly the same weight behind it. Heck, Demmi is completely forgotten by now . . .

The Inquest doesn’t have a side-story.

Yes they do. They’re trying to subvert, or keep subverted, Rata Sum’s Arcane Council so they can pretty much do whatever they want and nobody’s got clout to put a stop to it. Not even Zojja.

The Karka were driven to the surface by the deep sea dragon. <- Dragons.

The Inquest have a backstory and a purpose, but we haven’t had side stories that revolve around them in any capacity other than their relation to research on draconic energies. (in the LS).

FlamingFoxx.1305:

A Massive Headache.1879:

and I’ll say it again. sylvari being dragon minions is incredibly stupid, and I’m kind of surprised mccoys work was taken seriously.

Your comment is going to get removed, but before that happens. I agree. As far as compelling plot ideas go, this is not one.

Piece of advice to the writers. Not everything needs to revolve around the dragons. Your world begins to look very two dimensional when almost every single piece of lore we have in game in some ways ties back to the elder dragons (The Mursaat, The Seers, The Dwarves, Scarlet, The Gods…). We get that they are the big bad and are super important, but too much of one thing gets very old. You’re also tampering with lore that a lot of people love and making it seem rather trivial because you know what ‘dragons did it’.

I’m not aware of any ties between the Mursaat, the Seers and the Elder Dragons, but since the start of the series there’s been these six very clear and obvious domains that don’t appear to mix or cross over nearly as much as they should do, especially seeing as they don’t correspond at all to elemental planes. There is something about Tyria where these six domains are fundamental forces. It looks like that’s how the Antikythera is built, which means that these forces would end up expressing themselves over and over again in different contexts. The human gods aren’t “tied” to the Elder Dragons so much as the human gods will naturally slot into each domain, just like the dragons. That’s how Tyria is.

The trick is telling interesting stories in and around the existing world, and it’s useful that the Elder Dragons are characterised more like natural disasters or fundamental forces than as characters with motivations. The villains of the show are always going to have their reasons for doing things, and those reasons probably should be coming from the world as it exists. In Tyria, the Elder Dragons are a big deal – in the same way, in the real world 9/11 casts a very long shadow that darkens a lot of things you’d think would be irrelevant.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

The Karka were driven to the surface by the deep sea dragon. <- Dragons.

First, not really proven but just supposed at. It could be them looking for a good volcanic chamber to nest in and Southsun was unoccupied.

Second, still doesn’t link “Secret of Southsun” (Canach’s guerilla warfare against the Consortium) or the Consortium’s first whole effort to dragons.

And lastly – the dragons are a nonentity even if we assume it was Bubbles who pressured them out and Zhaitan’s shift of the seascape from raising Orr gave them a nice nesting ground. they may set the stage but it’s not about them. That’s where I have a problem with “everything is about the dragons”. It’s really not – they may be one of the reasons things happen, but just having an effect from being there doesn’t make the story about them.

That’s exactly like saying “Star Wars: A New Hope” is about Palpatine since if he didn’t exist the story wouldn’t. Or “Star Trek 3/4” is about Khan, because if he hadn’t existed in the second film then the other two movies wouldn’t exist.

There’s “being about it” and “being part of the world”. There’s a distinction.

The Inquest have a backstory and a purpose, but we haven’t had side stories that revolve around them in any capacity other than their relation to research on draconic energies. (in the LS).

Well there’s how they pretty much show up to bully young budding inventors into giving up their research in the early asura personal story.

runeblade.7514:

Now that the Sylvari is the dragon’s minion theory is true, I got a question.

Did the idea that the Sylvari being Modremoth’s minion came before the theory was created or after it?

Honestly, it wouldn’t surprise me if those who were most outspoken against the Sylvari-Minion theory happened to blame Anet for falling under the influence of those who supported the theory. There were plenty of questions since Day 1, hell even during beta as information was slowly unearthed. The similarities in the Sylvari anatomy and that of Mordremoth were too… seemingly… intertwined.

As a person who liked the theory and supported it, though I still had questions myself, I would like to think this was planned since the beginning but details were so sparse that drawing connections then were like picking nails from a haystack.

Can’t win em all I suppose. It was an interesting debate these past couple of years, going back and forth and sometimes more passionate than others. I’d rather not resort to humoring criticizing the writers for giving into player-pressure, as it’s simply bad form to me. At times it’s just easier to throw all kinds of accusations and assertions without having all of the information, information that was kept behind closed doors of course (offices).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

The Karka were driven to the surface by the deep sea dragon. <- Dragons.

First, not really proven but just supposed at. It could be them looking for a good volcanic chamber to nest in and Southsun was unoccupied.

Second, still doesn’t link “Secret of Southsun” (Canach’s guerilla warfare against the Consortium) or the Consortium’s first whole effort to dragons.

And lastly – the dragons are a nonentity even if we assume it was Bubbles who pressured them out and Zhaitan’s shift of the seascape from raising Orr gave them a nice nesting ground. they may set the stage but it’s not about them. That’s where I have a problem with “everything is about the dragons”. It’s really not – they may be one of the reasons things happen, but just having an effect from being there doesn’t make the story about them.

That’s exactly like saying “Star Wars: A New Hope” is about Palpatine since if he didn’t exist the story wouldn’t. Or “Star Trek 3/4” is about Khan, because if he hadn’t existed in the second film then the other two movies wouldn’t exist.

There’s “being about it” and “being part of the world”. There’s a distinction.

The Inquest have a backstory and a purpose, but we haven’t had side stories that revolve around them in any capacity other than their relation to research on draconic energies. (in the LS).

Well there’s how they pretty much show up to bully young budding inventors into giving up their research in the early asura personal story.

What O_o. It was proven that that was why the Karka were coming up. We had dialogue with Quaggan and Zommoros that said so.

As I have said a couple of times. It’s not the personal story that has this issue. The PS was fine and somewhat balanced. It’s the living story that has this issue. I also said that not absolutely everything was about the dragons, but the predominant moments have been tied to the dragons, with some parts that have acted as set up for further dragon related things.

@Tobias Trueflight

Man this feels like a game of connect the dots. lD

Okay, Southsun cove. Well. The Karka appeared there because they couldn’t before because Risen. And there’s a high chance they were driven out by the DSD because what else would force a deep-sea race to the surface? Then later down the line, how did that whole refugee situation happen? Alliances by Scarlet who was a pawn to a dragon. Welp.

The Krytan Political Mess Redux. See: Reason and mastermind behind all that, Mursaat. What has Anet been hinting at all this time in S2 as we move into Mord’s territory? White Mantle and Mursaat. Is there reason to worry they’ll link both of these things rather than let these side-stories play out independently? Yeah.

Inquest. Problem with the Inquest is, a) the Inquest hardly has a common goal beside ‘more knowledge at all costs!’ You can claim that keeping the arcane council under control is their story but you’d be partly wrong because this is only one of the many individual goals they have. Maybe a better way to put it is that every single Inquest krewe seems to have their own ‘side story’ and so you can’t speak of the Inquest’s story as whole.

Mist War. Yes it’s lore but not story. And as such it isn’t relevant to anything. It’s not a story-thread. It’s just ‘there’ in the limbo until Anet gives it a story. Then its possible connections to everything becomes relevant.

Maybe it’s a bit of a misunderstanding because English isn’t my native language, but when I said “There’s a HUGE difference about ‘centered around dragon’s and taking every little thing in the game and say ‘gasp! Dragons did it/relate to it!’”, the present progressive was alluding to the future.

So yeah, it’s not about everything being about or being made dragons-did-it right now, but warning the writers of doing that. There’s a chance they won’t. But there’s also a chance in my eyes they might. Thus, I think worrying and mentioning it is justified.

Merus.9475:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

A Massive Headache.1879:

and I’ll say it again. sylvari being dragon minions is incredibly stupid, and I’m kind of surprised mccoys work was taken seriously.

Your comment is going to get removed, but before that happens. I agree. As far as compelling plot ideas go, this is not one.

Piece of advice to the writers. Not everything needs to revolve around the dragons. Your world begins to look very two dimensional when almost every single piece of lore we have in game in some ways ties back to the elder dragons (The Mursaat, The Seers, The Dwarves, Scarlet, The Gods…). We get that they are the big bad and are super important, but too much of one thing gets very old. You’re also tampering with lore that a lot of people love and making it seem rather trivial because you know what ‘dragons did it’.

I’m not aware of any ties between the Mursaat, the Seers and the Elder Dragons…

The tie was only in that the Mursaat, Seers, and The Forgotten both roamed Tyria openly as the EDs awoke during their reign(s). The Mursaat chose to hide while the Seers managed the Bloodstones which acted as a magnet for magical energy, that which the dragons feed on thus limiting their food supply so they got tired and went back to sleep. On the other hand, The Forgotten of course perform some form of ritual that disrupts the link between Glint and Kralkatorric, which gave her the ability to slowly sympathize with the races of Tyria and go then ultimately turn against her master’s goals.

That being said, the lore was relatively new. This wasn’t covered in Guild Wars 1, there wasn’t too much information on the Bloodstones. When this notion was brought to light (via Arah Explorable) a lot of people frankly were upset, feeling like the original plot got hijacked for the sake of the primary threat in Guild Wars 2.

Merus.9475:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

A Massive Headache.1879:

and I’ll say it again. sylvari being dragon minions is incredibly stupid, and I’m kind of surprised mccoys work was taken seriously.

Your comment is going to get removed, but before that happens. I agree. As far as compelling plot ideas go, this is not one.

Piece of advice to the writers. Not everything needs to revolve around the dragons. Your world begins to look very two dimensional when almost every single piece of lore we have in game in some ways ties back to the elder dragons (The Mursaat, The Seers, The Dwarves, Scarlet, The Gods…). We get that they are the big bad and are super important, but too much of one thing gets very old. You’re also tampering with lore that a lot of people love and making it seem rather trivial because you know what ‘dragons did it’.

I’m not aware of any ties between the Mursaat, the Seers and the Elder Dragons, but since the start of the series there’s been these six very clear and obvious domains that don’t appear to mix or cross over nearly as much as they should do, especially seeing as they don’t correspond at all to elemental planes. There is something about Tyria where these six domains are fundamental forces. It looks like that’s how the Antikythera is built, which means that these forces would end up expressing themselves over and over again in different contexts. The human gods aren’t “tied” to the Elder Dragons so much as the human gods will naturally slot into each domain, just like the dragons. That’s how Tyria is.

The trick is telling interesting stories in and around the existing world, and it’s useful that the Elder Dragons are characterised more like natural disasters or fundamental forces than as characters with motivations. The villains of the show are always going to have their reasons for doing things, and those reasons probably should be coming from the world as it exists. In Tyria, the Elder Dragons are a big deal – in the same way, in the real world 9/11 casts a very long shadow that darkens a lot of things you’d think would be irrelevant.

The Mursaat and Seers were part of the original group of races who fought against the Elder Dragons. The Mursaat phasing out of Tyria to avoid the dragons then acts as a plot point for why the other races dislike them and solidifies them as bad guys etc.

Also please don’t bring 9/11 into this. yes it was an absolutely horrific event but you perhaps overestimate how much of an impact it has outside of the US (which is not to say that it does not have an impact, but it’s in no way comparable to Dragons that are threatening to destroy an entire globe in a fictional universe).

A distinction has to be drawn here between something being an important part of the world which is naturally going to have effects on everything, and everything coming down to one thing.

Take Prophecies, for instance. Abaddon’s influence is (retroactively) felt through the entire campaign. However, there are still other stories being told. The charr would still have been fighting Ascalon without the aid of the Searing Cauldrons, and it’s quite likely they could have at least reclaimed much of the land north of the Wall without Abaddon’s help. The dwarf civil war appears unconnected to Abaddon. The mursaat were responding to a threat they saw that was linked to Abaddon, but they had their own agenda in responding to it, and their methods put them in conflict with the players. And we didn’t even know who Abaddon was, let alone his involvement, until a year and a half later.

In the case of recent GW2 releases, though… I think it is reasonable to say that the dragons have been taking over the story. Pretty much everything lately has been either working against Mordremoth, or dealing with something that is hindering efforts to work against Mordremoth.

Still… we’ll see what happens at and after PAX South.

Ronin.7381:

Honestly, it wouldn’t surprise me if those who were most outspoken against the Sylvari-Minion theory happened to blame Anet for falling under the influence of those who supported the theory. There were plenty of questions since Day 1, hell even during beta as information was slowly unearthed. The similarities in the Sylvari anatomy and that of Mordremoth were too… seemingly… intertwined.

As a person who liked the theory and supported it, though I still had questions myself, I would like to think this was planned since the beginning but details were so sparse that drawing connections then were like picking nails from a haystack.

Angel’s said that this was something that was planned from the start. While some may be willing to accuse ArenaNet of lying to hide the source of their ideas, I’m not inclined to go down that path.

What really annoyed me there was that so many of the theory’s supporters were treating it as if it was confirmed fact, when the evidence for it didn’t bear up very well under scrutiny. I remember when the theory of sylvari being dragon minions first came up, and the evidence supporting that has progressively been debunked as we learned new things. It has turned out to be correct (although not in the form it was originally presented) but more out of coincidence than anything else.

It’d be kinda like if someone had said the Moon must be colder than the Sun because the Moon is white and white things (like snow) are cold, and the Sun is yellow and that yellow things (like fire) are hot. While the Moon is indeed cooler than the Sun, the argument is fallacious, particularly when it can be demonstrated that something white can often be hotter than something yellow.

Most of the evidence that I would actually consider credible didn’t appear until after the start of 2014, by which point most of the theories supporters were not coming into it because of those hints, but because of the arguments made back in 2012 that were logical at the time but had since been debunked.

I am torn.

One one hand, I think Sylvaris as dragon minions is equivalent to Sylvaris as race of Mary Sues. The writers were able to keep the truth or logic of their true nature hidden by making the mechanics of their true nature unique. I don’t consider that good writing, I consider that three card monte.

On the other hand; a player controlled race that turns out to be unwittingly and in some cases, intentionally, working for the enemy could prove to be a very dynamic environment for story telling. I just hope the writers have a handle on how dark this environment could get.

Psientist.6437:

I am torn.

One one hand, I think Sylvaris as dragon minions is equivalent to Sylvaris as race of Mary Sues. The writers were able to keep the truth or logic of their true nature hidden by making the mechanics of their true nature unique. I don’t consider that good writing, I consider that three card monte.

On the other hand; a player controlled race that turns out to be unwittingly and in some cases, intentionally, working for the enemy could prove to be a very dynamic environment for story telling. I just hope the writers have a handle on how dark this environment could get.

In Guildwars 2 beta, all players were corrupted by Krakaltoric, and players as themselves were fighting against other players who had the misfortune to have been corrupted by Krakaltoric. In the end Krakaltoric won as all players turned evil. This happened in all servers in NA and EU.

Avariz.8241:

Psientist.6437:

I am torn.

One one hand, I think Sylvaris as dragon minions is equivalent to Sylvaris as race of Mary Sues. The writers were able to keep the truth or logic of their true nature hidden by making the mechanics of their true nature unique. I don’t consider that good writing, I consider that three card monte.

On the other hand; a player controlled race that turns out to be unwittingly and in some cases, intentionally, working for the enemy could prove to be a very dynamic environment for story telling. I just hope the writers have a handle on how dark this environment could get.

In Guildwars 2 beta, all players were corrupted by Krakaltoric, and players as themselves were fighting against other players who had the misfortune to have been corrupted by Krakaltoric. In the end Krakaltoric won as all players turned evil. This happened in all servers in NA and EU.

Pardon my confusion, but which of my comments are you referring to? And are you offering events and mechanics that occurred during beta as canon?

ElysianEternity.6215:

@Tobias Trueflight

Man this feels like a game of connect the dots. lD

Okay, Southsun cove. Well. The Karka appeared there because they couldn’t before because Risen. And there’s a high chance they were driven out by the DSD because what else would force a deep-sea race to the surface? Then later down the line, how did that whole refugee situation happen? Alliances by Scarlet who was a pawn to a dragon. Welp.

Living Story season 1 was supposed to be happening parallel somewhere to the Personal Story. The timeline is pretty much unknown for exactly when stuff happened, thanks to shenanigans trying to keep them separate.

And, again, Southsun Cove isn’t about the dragons. They’re mostly irrelevant. You can Ctrl+R “Dragon” with “Climate Change” in regards to what drove the Karka into the area . . . and nothing changes.

The Krytan Political Mess Redux. See: Reason and mastermind behind all that, Mursaat.

The White Mantle is not the mursaat.

What has Anet been hinting at all this time in S2 as we move into Mord’s territory? White Mantle and Mursaat. Is there reason to worry they’ll link both of these things rather than let these side-stories play out independently? Yeah.

Well, considering to get to the Silverwastes it had to be through the bandits we “knew” were Mantle-led? (Like we “knew” sylvari were dragon minions before this update.) Yeah.

And again, if it turns out they’re basically moving out of the area and abandoning it because Mordremoth went active . . . how does that change anything about what their goals are? It doesn’t change what’s going on with them, it just means they relocate or have setbacks . . . and have to step up other activities.

If we see increased activity on that front, because they got rattled by Mordremoth, it doesn’t mean the story is suddenly about the dragon.

Inquest. Problem with the Inquest is, a) the Inquest hardly has a common goal beside ‘more knowledge at all costs!’ You can claim that keeping the arcane council under control is their story but you’d be partly wrong because this is only one of the many individual goals they have. Maybe a better way to put it is that every single Inquest krewe seems to have their own ‘side story’ and so you can’t speak of the Inquest’s story as whole.

Which is really the charm of the Inquest, for me.

Maybe it’s a bit of a misunderstanding because English isn’t my native language, but when I said “There’s a HUGE difference about ‘centered around dragon’s and taking every little thing in the game and say ‘gasp! Dragons did it/relate to it!’”, the present progressive was alluding to the future.

So yeah, it’s not about everything being about or being made dragons-did-it right now, but warning the writers of doing that. There’s a chance they won’t. But there’s also a chance in my eyes they might. Thus, I think worrying and mentioning it is justified.

Well, we have a dilemma. See, the dragons are part of the landscape of the world, and having made significant changes before GW2 actually starts. So, really, it could be argued . . . everything has something to do with dragons since everything has already been affected by them.

Even Rata Sum, which was formed back in the days of the Great Destroyer because . . . Destroyers (Primordius’ minions) chased the asura to the surface. So from day one, minute one, the dragons have already affected everything which has asura connected to it. Which, thanks to asura gates now being normalized through Lion’s Arch? That means everything.

There’s two ways in which it could be argued dragons already had a hand in shaping the world. So complaining it’s going on now is sort of reaching for something to complain about.

Now, complaining the story centers on the dragons and what they’re doing? I’d almost be okay with saying that needs less focus some of the time . . . except we had incredible amounts of bile left around over LS1 which didn’t seem to connect to dragons at all and had people going “so aren’t there dragons we could be killing now?”. I know it was a common joke I saw. “Zhaitan died in 2012. We’ll see the next one in 2017.”

draxynnic.3719:

In the case of recent GW2 releases, though… I think it is reasonable to say that the dragons have been taking over the story. Pretty much everything lately has been either working against Mordremoth, or dealing with something that is hindering efforts to work against Mordremoth.

Still… we’ll see what happens at and after PAX South.

Looking at how much story there is actually going on? I’m sorry, it doesn’t compare. The story amount of the chapters seems real small compared to the rest of the offerings, especially from “Echoes of the Past” through “Seeds of Truth”. It seems like it’s all about this but I’m basically seeing it as a set of linked primary quests to compare it to GW1 mechanics.

. . . they’re about the same length, and none of the instances are as long as missions were so far. So just looking at it, what we have is like the slice in Kryra (first time through) in Prophecies – everything seems to be all about the Shining Blade vs White Mantle, and with the undead presence making things ugly.

Meh. At least it’s competently done and more in tune than the first two thirds of LS1 with how the story is flowing around characters rather than seeming to bubble up through the content.