Guild Wars 2

Last line for no spoilers, close now if you don’t want to see it!

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So, during last episode of Living World we learned that 1) Magic works similarly to light and has a spectrum; 2) Each dragon holds a major portion of some ‘frequencies’ of magic, and upon release of it, others (which may or may not include non-dragons) can get hold of said power. This is not much different from what Kormir did to Abbadon, for he was supposedly going to tear apart the Realm of Torment upon death, so in the end it seems like Tyria and the Mists are held together by a detailed balance of different kinds of magic.

But what about “corruption” then? In LS3E1 we saw people going crazy over large amounts of bloodstone magic consumption. Wouldn’t dragon corruption merely be another form of this magic sickness, just amplified and/or fine tuned by its bearer?

Now this wouldn’t be so relevant if it wasn’t for Aurene (still inside the egg back in Tarir) literally summoning us from the Ring of Fire to safeguard her, not to mention the many instances where the PC was hailed as “her champion”, and also the visions the PC has from time to time (we even knew “her” name beforehand!).

It may not seem like that right now, but there’s no way around this as far as I’m concerned: that thing’s a dragon, and it’s stockpiled on Glint and Mordremoth’s magic (even has the long face of its cousin), and it’s not communicating with us through “good vibes and the best of intentions”. No, if we truly are “Aurene’s champions” that must mean we are “corrupted” in a sense, right? I didn’t see this being addressed anywhere, and the PC+Dragon Watch seems completely oblivious to the fact that he/she has been going through hell and back just like any minion would do for its dragon. So what do you guys think? Even if Aurene is ‘good’, is that even good to us? Are we becoming what we seek to destroy?

You might be reading too deeply into the scenario. You’re not the first to put forth the idea that we’re becoming a dragon’s champion, but the champions have always been a different breed from the rank-and-file corrupted minions.

First off, bloodstone addiction is not the same as dragon corruption. There are many of the same signs, but the bloodstone addicts are more single-minded rather than mindless or guided like the dragon minions are. Plus, we were just far enough away to avoid the downside of the bloodstone exploding. Otherwise, everyone on that airship would’ve been affected, not just us.

Second, we don’t know much about Aurene outside of her being a dragon and Glint’s daughter. Yes, she sucked up some of Mordremoth’s power, and maybe that sped up her birth or maybe she’ll be working to keep magic in balance in place of the elder dragons, but how and if she’ll have her own domain still remain to be seen.

Third, and this is where I might be overreaching, but the champions tend to be far more independent of their dragons than the regular minions are. The Claw of Jormag, for instance, has a bit more freedom than the icebrood do, I think. Yes, they are still driven to do their master’s bidding, but they have a bit of freedom in exactly how they do that.

What Rognik said. For example, look at Glint and the Pale Tree. Both went against their masters wishes, something a minion cannot do. Champions are most likely independent agents that have a link to their dragon, though what keeps them linked may be some sort of strong bond between them. Said bond could be anywhere from familial, to friendship, to love.

This would also explain why the ED go absolutely insane whenever their champions betray them, because it’s a betrayal they absolutely cannot accept. Then again, could anybody ever accept their family, their friends, or their lover to betray them on that level?

maxwelgm.4315:

But what about “corruption” then? In LS3E1 we saw people going crazy over large amounts of bloodstone magic consumption. Wouldn’t dragon corruption merely be another form of this magic sickness, just amplified and/or fine tuned by its bearer?

According to Professor Gorr’s research, dragon corruption is essentially the draining and reimplementing of magic.

Given this information, basically the Elder Dragons drain all magic from their subject of corruption, then puts in varying amounts of their domain’s magic.

Bloodstone sickness, however, is solely the over-excess of magic that has been sitting in the Bloodstone for up to thousands of years.

Very different.

maxwelgm.4315:

No, if we truly are “Aurene’s champions” that must mean we are “corrupted” in a sense, right?

Pretty much my interpretation too, tinfoil hat or no.

The main difference is the levels of corruption – she isn’t altering our physical bodies with her magic. But that doesn’t mean she’s not overriding our free will with her own…

RyuDragnier.9476:

What Rognik said. For example, look at Glint and the Pale Tree. Both went against their masters wishes, something a minion cannot do. Champions are most likely independent agents that have a link to their dragon, though what keeps them linked may be some sort of strong bond between them. Said bond could be anywhere from familial, to friendship, to love.

It’s an explicit statement that Glint was only able to betray Kralkatorrik because the Forgotten used an ancient and powerful ritual to give her free will once again.

The Pale Tree (and Malyck’s tree by extension based on what we know) having their own free will is a strong question. The only way dragon minions – or champions – have free will is through some external magical force giving such. In Mawdrey’s case, it was the series of exotic magic, waters, and soil we fed. The obvious answer is that the cave full of seeds was, at some point, purified like Glint was. By whom, when, or why remains unknown – but it’s the only logical explanation given all the lore facts we know.

Dragon champions have, as Rognik said, some level of autonomy for how to go about their tasks, but ultimately they are all enslaved to their Elder Dragon’s will still, just like their mindless and nigh-mindless dragon minions.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Pale Tree (and Malyck’s tree by extension based on what we know) having their own free will is a strong question. The only way dragon minions – or champions – have free will is through some external magical force giving such. In Mawdrey’s case, it was the series of exotic magic, waters, and soil we fed. The obvious answer is that the cave full of seeds was, at some point, purified like Glint was. By whom, when, or why remains unknown – but it’s the only logical explanation given all the lore facts we know.

Dragon champions have, as Rognik said, some level of autonomy for how to go about their tasks, but ultimately they are all enslaved to their Elder Dragon’s will still, just like their mindless and nigh-mindless dragon minions.

I tend to believe that Mordremoth created his minions as empty vessels and only occupied their minds (fitting his domain ‘Mind’) when he awoke/became active. The Pale Tree and Sylvari were not empty vessels anymore, courtesy of Ronan,Ventari and the fact the Pale Tree was planted way before Mordremoth could control it, and thus were harder to occupy than his freshly created minions. Mordremoth was only able to turn Sylvari that were weaker of mind.
(Compare it to us humans. We tend to keep to the values and believes we got taught as children and usually view them as ‘normal’, shunning those who do not share these values and believes. Changing those views takes a lot of effort and outside influence).

maxwelgm.4315:

Last line for no spoilers, close now if you don’t want to see it!

==============

So, during last episode of Living World we learned that 1) Magic works similarly to light and has a spectrum; 2) Each dragon holds a major portion of some ‘frequencies’ of magic, and upon release of it, others (which may or may not include non-dragons) can get hold of said power. This is not much different from what Kormir did to Abbadon, for he was supposedly going to tear apart the Realm of Torment upon death, so in the end it seems like Tyria and the Mists are held together by a detailed balance of different kinds of magic.

But what about “corruption” then? In LS3E1 we saw people going crazy over large amounts of bloodstone magic consumption. Wouldn’t dragon corruption merely be another form of this magic sickness, just amplified and/or fine tuned by its bearer?

Now this wouldn’t be so relevant if it wasn’t for Aurene (still inside the egg back in Tarir) literally summoning us from the Ring of Fire to safeguard her, not to mention the many instances where the PC was hailed as “her champion”, and also the visions the PC has from time to time (we even knew “her” name beforehand!).

It may not seem like that right now, but there’s no way around this as far as I’m concerned: that thing’s a dragon, and it’s stockpiled on Glint and Mordremoth’s magic (even has the long face of its cousin), and it’s not communicating with us through “good vibes and the best of intentions”. No, if we truly are “Aurene’s champions” that must mean we are “corrupted” in a sense, right? I didn’t see this being addressed anywhere, and the PC+Dragon Watch seems completely oblivious to the fact that he/she has been going through hell and back just like any minion would do for its dragon. So what do you guys think? Even if Aurene is ‘good’, is that even good to us? Are we becoming what we seek to destroy?

Well then that comes to four possible outcomes:
1) Aurene turns out good and the pc accepts her eventually corrupted champion (most likely).
2) Aurene turns out evil and the pc never realizes that they are controlled and just do her bidding, eventually killing all the other dragons, destroy anyone in theyr way, no matter if friend or foe and stay loyal to Aurene.
3) Aurene turns out evil and the pc eventually realizes it.. accepts it as the lesser evil or goes insane from the mind control.
4) Aurene gets randomly killed like our dear mentors and cause riot in the community.

I hope for 2 or 3. The game needs a bit darker touch and this could be a perfect plot change, with not even the player realizing it/ beigh completely fine with it/ knowing but having no control or any way to change it, it could give the story the depth it needs.

Inc.4753:

I tend to believe that Mordremoth created his minions as empty vessels and only occupied their minds (fitting his domain ‘Mind’) when he awoke/became active. The Pale Tree and Sylvari were not empty vessels anymore, courtesy of Ronan,Ventari and the fact the Pale Tree was planted way before Mordremoth could control it, and thus were harder to occupy than his freshly created minions. Mordremoth was only able to turn Sylvari that were weaker of mind.
(Compare it to us humans. We tend to keep to the values and believes we got taught as children and usually view them as ‘normal’, shunning those who do not share these values and believes. Changing those views takes a lot of effort and outside influence).

Destroyers are empty vessels. In GW1, they’re described to be literally mindless without the Great Destroyer (aka without a dragon champion) to direct them.

But you cannot bring destroyers over to the side of good.

Nor can you give a mind through mere tender and nurturing – and no magic – to a creature without such.

Nor are dragon minions – any of them – capable of breaking free of their master’s will.

Nor are dragon minions exempt from their master’s will while the Elder Dragon sleeps (see: Drakkar, Svanir, Great Destroyer and all of GW1 destroyers, risen Gigatnicus Lupicus, Scarlet Briar, potentially the Tower of Nightmares and Nightmare Court though that never got confirmed/denied).

Simply put: Mordremoth does not need to be awake to have his minions be brainwashed thralls. No Elder Dragon does. And you cannot simply win over dragon minions with what is effectively the “power of love” – they made this explicitly clear in the Personal Story and Sea of Sorrows. This is one of the core foundations of what dragon minions are, and why they are so horrific.

Well I stand corrected, bloodstone high and dragon corruption are profoundly different in nature, but that doesn’t solve the issue of a [newborn, perhaps benevolent, but still very powerful] dragon adopting us (the walking machine of doom and destroyer of worlds, mary sue of the mary sues, master of nature, etc etc.) as her champion, i.e mental slavery until she explicitly decides to (or someone else does) cleanse us of her own magics.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Inc.4753:

I tend to believe that Mordremoth created his minions as empty vessels and only occupied their minds (fitting his domain ‘Mind’) when he awoke/became active. The Pale Tree and Sylvari were not empty vessels anymore, courtesy of Ronan,Ventari and the fact the Pale Tree was planted way before Mordremoth could control it, and thus were harder to occupy than his freshly created minions. Mordremoth was only able to turn Sylvari that were weaker of mind.
(Compare it to us humans. We tend to keep to the values and believes we got taught as children and usually view them as ‘normal’, shunning those who do not share these values and believes. Changing those views takes a lot of effort and outside influence).

Destroyers are empty vessels. In GW1, they’re described to be literally mindless without the Great Destroyer (aka without a dragon champion) to direct them.

But you cannot bring destroyers over to the side of good.

Nor can you give a mind through mere tender and nurturing – and no magic – to a creature without such.

Nor are dragon minions – any of them – capable of breaking free of their master’s will.

Nor are dragon minions exempt from their master’s will while the Elder Dragon sleeps (see: Drakkar, Svanir, Great Destroyer and all of GW1 destroyers, risen Gigatnicus Lupicus, Scarlet Briar, potentially the Tower of Nightmares and Nightmare Court though that never got confirmed/denied).

Simply put: Mordremoth does not need to be awake to have his minions be brainwashed thralls. No Elder Dragon does. And you cannot simply win over dragon minions with what is effectively the “power of love” – they made this explicitly clear in the Personal Story and Sea of Sorrows. This is one of the core foundations of what dragon minions are, and why they are so horrific.

Actually – Every Elder Dragon is different. Every dragon except Mordremoth’s are empty husks. However, the very nature of Mordremoth’s ‘domain’ of magic – (Plant) life and mind, change that standard paradigm. Mordremoth’s minions are not merely created – they grow. That said – the change of the Sylvari is from Ventari’s Tablet, and the magic powering it that purified the Pale Tree’s seed.

Sartharina, nothing you said is factual. At all.

Read Edge of Destiny – or just simply look at the story of Glint – and you’d know hands down that Kralkatorrik isn’t an “empty husk”. An empty husk would not hunt down and kill Glint because she broke free of his enslavement.

Or look at the lore of Jormag: he actively takes in willing converts over enslaving others like Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik do.

Mordremoth wasn’t life either, just plant and mind. No where, ever, is he ever referred to as “life”. His domain of mind magic has nothing to do with his intelligence – it’s shown in Heart of Thorns that his domain of mind gave him abilities of mass telepathy and the ability to transfer his mind across his corruption (and with his fast spreading plant magic domain, effectively made him immortal).

Furthermore, it’s a well established piece of lore that a mere stone tablet and mere words cannot purify dragon corruption, which enslave’s one own will. And there was no magic behind Ventari’s Tablet, at all.

And besides that, if it was Ventari and his tablet that freed the Pale Tree… how the hell did Malyck and his tree get free from Mordremoth?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And besides that, if it was Ventari and his tablet that freed the Pale Tree… how the hell did Malyck and his tree get free from Mordremoth?

Nothing says that Malyck was free of Mordremoth’s grip. Maybe his entire tree were the first mordrem we met, activated only after Mordremoth’s awakening. Still too much of the errant sylvari – not Soundless, nor a Dreamer, nor in Nightmare – to really know what’s going on with him and his origins. Too many unanswered questions, and no map to clue us in. Yet.

He doesn’t behave like a minion, though.

We’ve seen how minions behave when their master is sleeping – Svanir, the Destroyers, etc. The dragon is their overriding concern even if the dragon is sleeping (Svanir was following orders from Drakkar, the Destroyers were worshiping the sleeping Primordus and probably funneling magic to him somehow).

Malyck was not thinking about Mordremoth at all, from what we can see, including a ritual intended to probe his origins.

Actually we never saw any minion sylvari, the way they should be. all the mordrem we saw in HoT are former Pact members, sylvari who could not resist the call of Mordremoth. The rest of the mordrem we saw were copies of dead bodies or seemingly corrupted wildlife.
Like I said in another thread I am not sure how Malyck should be now treated because the more we learn about the world, the less he himself makes any sense in this world. For example, how does he know how to fight or talk if he has no connection to any Dream, or any conciousness that teach him what his purpose is? Rumors are that the content got scrapped from HoT and I could totally see why : whatever his fate is, there will be inconstancies.
If he turns out to be a minion, then why did he look so not minion like in PS if champions life cycle is independent of their master’s (like Great Destroyer and minions and Primordus). If he is still independent from Mordremoth then how did he manage without access to the Dream ?
Also why do all sylvari look humanoid? Beforehand it was explained that there were so because the Pale Tree (and logically Malyck Tree) were planted on dead human bodies which she copied but since episode 2 it seems like Blighting Trees copying dead bodies only got created after Zhaitan’s death…..

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Inc.4753:

…

Destroyers are empty vessels. In GW1, they’re described to be literally mindless without the Great Destroyer (aka without a dragon champion) to direct them.

But you cannot bring destroyers over to the side of good.

Nor can you give a mind through mere tender and nurturing – and no magic – to a creature without such.

Nor are dragon minions – any of them – capable of breaking free of their master’s will.

Nor are dragon minions exempt from their master’s will while the Elder Dragon sleeps (see: Drakkar, Svanir, Great Destroyer and all of GW1 destroyers, risen Gigatnicus Lupicus, Scarlet Briar, potentially the Tower of Nightmares and Nightmare Court though that never got confirmed/denied).

Simply put: Mordremoth does not need to be awake to have his minions be brainwashed thralls. No Elder Dragon does. And you cannot simply win over dragon minions with what is effectively the “power of love” – they made this explicitly clear in the Personal Story and Sea of Sorrows. This is one of the core foundations of what dragon minions are, and why they are so horrific.

Can we for a moment entertain the thought that the Pale Tree (and Sylvari by extention) are not corrupted until at least after it has sprouted from its seed? All we know is that the seed was found in a cave, guarded by what presumably are Mordrem. The origin of the seed is, afaik, unknown. It could very well be that it was not created but just collected by Mordremoth (thin argument incoming: why store the seeds for such a long time and risk losing them if you can create new ones yourself?). This would mean the Pale Tree and Sylvari never were dragon minions and thus never had to break free of its will and never needed to be changed by hugs and kisses.

Unless there is some dialogue in HoT that I can’t recall, all we have to go on are Wynne’s words:

Wynne: We come from the jungle dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it.
Caithe: You’re lying!
Wynne: I saw it in my Dream. And if Faolain knew, she wouldn’t keep it a secret.

While the first part seems pretty clear, the second sentence tells us where her information came from. As the Dream ‘is capable of showing not only the past and present, but also possible futures’ (wiki), the combined image of their past with Mordremoth, a future where the Pale Tree would not have been taken by Ronan and the future (now reality) where Sylvari are turned to the Dragon could still explain Wynne’s words.

Inc.4753:

Can we for a moment entertain the thought that the Pale Tree (and Sylvari by extention) are not corrupted until at least after it has sprouted from its seed?

Here’s the problems with that “entertainment”

1. Sylvari are ‘made to serve the jungle dragon’ – Malyck is a sylvari. Ergo, either both Malyck’s tree and the Pale Tree were corrupted then somehow turned good after planting, or they were corrupted as seeds.
2. There is at no point a chance for mordrem to corrupt the Pale Tree after planting the seed without Ronan and Ventari knowing.
3. There is further at no point a chance to purify the corrupted Pale Tree if it was corrupted after planting the seed. As mentioned above, dragon minions must be purified in some manner – the manner can change, as we prove between Glint and Mawdrey – but in both cases require exotic magics that neither Ventari nor Ronan (nor anyone else seen at the camp in GW1) had to any knowledge or indication.

Inc.4753:

The origin of the seed is, afaik, unknown. It could very well be that it was not created but just collected by Mordremoth (thin argument incoming: why store the seeds for such a long time and risk losing them if you can create new ones yourself?).

Because there has been only one situation of losing dragon minions in the past before: Glint.

Mordremoth may not of known about Glint, or Mordremoth may have though its minions greater than being purified – which makes sense given that Mordremoth has a bit of a god complex (which is reasonable given that it is as powerful as gods, “creates life”, and is nigh immortal).

Inc.4753:

This would mean the Pale Tree and Sylvari never were dragon minions and thus never had to break free of its will and never needed to be changed by hugs and kisses.

Unless there is some dialogue in HoT that I can’t recall, all we have to go on are Wynne’s words:

Wynne: We come from the jungle dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it.
Caithe: You’re lying!
Wynne: I saw it in my Dream. And if Faolain knew, she wouldn’t keep it a secret.

While the first part seems pretty clear, the second sentence tells us where her information came from. As the Dream ‘is capable of showing not only the past and present, but also possible futures’ (wiki), the combined image of their past with Mordremoth, a future where the Pale Tree would not have been taken by Ronan and the future (now reality) where Sylvari are turned to the Dragon could still explain Wynne’s words.

Mordremoth’s words: “It’s time to come home.” Mordremoth and various mordrem – and non-corrupted sylvari – all throughout HoT acknowledge that sylvari origins are from, ultimately, Mordremoth. There are so many lines it’s near impossible to have not seen them. Not to mention ArenaNet’s own words during promotions of HoT.

Further, the Dream doesn’t show alternate presents, so it wouldn’t show a future where the Pale Tree didn’t get taken by Ronan because Ronan already took the seed over 225 years prior to Wynne’s information from the Dream. Any “potential future” would be taking place after 1302 AE at the earliest. But the future showed is very close to the future that happens – the differences between A Light in the Darkness and the outcome of the Personal Story are very thin, mainly being that Trahearne never gave a speech in that one camp (that we, the player, saw; there was no Dream version of the Pact Commander so that speech could have happened while we were off gallivanting elsewhere) and where we fought the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan/met King Reza (royal tomb versus Artesian Waters).

draxynnic.3719:

He doesn’t behave like a minion, though.

We’ve seen how minions behave when their master is sleeping – Svanir, the Destroyers, etc. The dragon is their overriding concern even if the dragon is sleeping (Svanir was following orders from Drakkar, the Destroyers were worshiping the sleeping Primordus and probably funneling magic to him somehow).

Malyck was not thinking about Mordremoth at all, from what we can see, including a ritual intended to probe his origins.

Then again, Mordremoth is the dragon of the Mind. This might have been part of his initial plan, to create a sentient race that integrates with the other races, then turns traitor as soon as he wakes up enough of the sylvari get close enough. We didn’t see ANY mordrem until Scarlet Briar drilled in Lion’s Arch, so we don’t know what their default behaviour is. We also don’t know where the initial mordrem minions come from. The humanoid ones, the archers and the warrior types, are corrupted sylvari, but what about the husks? The wolves? The terragriffs?

Unless any of you have a good counter, I’m going to work under the theory that sylvari are sleeper agents, totally normal until Mordremoth activates them. It’s only thanks to the Dream and strong willpower that prevents all sylvari from succumbing. Where did the Dream come from? Absolutely no idea.

If they were sleeper agents, then they’d be like the sylvari seen in Verdant Brink events – normal looking, integrated with the others, but not allied. They’d know their origins, and their purpose. They’d not be going “why am I here?”

Basically, if they were sleeper agents, they’d know that they were, and there wouldn’t be any resisting Mordremoth.

Because Elder Dragons do not provide free will. And you can be sapient without free will (dragon champions are).

There are two types of sleeper agents, at least in fiction: those who know they are sleeper agents, lying to everyone; and those who don’t, and are activated. In this case, the sylvari are the latter kind, triggered by Mordremoth speaking in their mind.

And how do you know that Mordremoth’s minions are not sentient? We never studied the mordrem like we did the others. We can’t even compare them to the other dragons, because by his very nature (having the Mind aspect), he can potentially bestow something the other dragons can’t: conscious thought. In fact, to prove the opposite, that elder dragons can have sentient thoughts, I point to Glint. Sure, the Forgotten had to cleanse her with magic first, but I doubt that magic granted her her powers, to write the Flameseeker Prophecies, to befriend the heroes when they arrived in her lair. There is a dragon minion that was sapient, with or without free will.

As a quick point of information: Dragon minions can be sapient. It’s up to the dragon how much energy to invest in a particular minion, and more energy allows for greater intelligence.

We even see a glimpse into the minds of some sapient dragon minions in Edge of Destiny. They have similar personalities to what they had before, including recognising familial bonds (as long as their family members are also corrupted). It’s just that they have two urges that override everything else: serve the dragon, and kill or corrupt all who aren’t corrupted.

Malyck doesn’t have those urges. He has no idea of who he is.

We’re starting to get into the territory of Carl Sagan’s dragon in the garage here, but suffice to say, all the evidence we have points to Malyck being independent of Mordremoth, or at least as much as any sylvari is.

I’m not sure if this post has moved too far past this point or not, but do you think it’s possible the Pale Tree was so disconnected from Mordremoth’s influence is because it grew in a river infested with bloodstone magic? The bloodstones were, in fact designed to hide or hold things (a thing. Magic) from dragons.

Or do you think it was too far down the river to really matter? I think the water around the Pale Tree in EotN lacked the buff you get further up river.

Hrrrmn. I think it’s too far out. I don’t remember if the buff was in Arbor Bay, but I don’t think it was: I think it was limited to the Maguuma region (Arbor Bay was Tarnished Coast in GW1, and the Ullen River emptied out further north in what is now the Caledon.)

I think, personally, that it’s far more likely that the cave full of seeds that Ronan found had somehow been purified already, before it was taken and brought to it’s current location.

Rognik.2579:

There are two types of sleeper agents, at least in fiction: those who know they are sleeper agents, lying to everyone; and those who don’t, and are activated. In this case, the sylvari are the latter kind, triggered by Mordremoth speaking in their mind.

There’s a problem with this theory, however:

Why would Mordremoth, with its god complex and belief that all others are beneath any form of interest beyond those who have killed another Elder Dragon (Destiny’s Edge, Trahearne, and the Pact Commander), something that hadn’t happen in multiple cycles of waking, bother to plant a race into society without them being enslave to his will when the very nature of dragon corruption is to have all minions enslaved to their will?

And the second problem is the ending to the first: why would the sylvari not be enslaved if not purified against Mordremoth’s intentions? They don’t need free will to be sleeper agents, and giving them free will creates the possibility that they would rebel.

Rognik.2579:

And how do you know that Mordremoth’s minions are not sentient? We never studied the mordrem like we did the others. We can’t even compare them to the other dragons, because by his very nature (having the Mind aspect), he can potentially bestow something the other dragons can’t: conscious thought.

Because not a single one of the “grunt” minions talk, or behave in any way that differentiates them from other mindless dragon minions: wandering about killing all in sight.

Dragon minions can typically be labeled into three categories, which I dub: Grunts, Lieutenants, and Champions.

Grunts are mindless (in the case of those created out of inanimate objects like destroyers and mordrem oft are) and nigh-mindless (in the case of those created out of bodies, like risen, icebrood, and branded oft are) and are overall fairly week. Their actions are, when no lieutenant or champion present, largely restricted to “wander aimlessly and kill all non-minions”.

Lieutenants are stronger and smarter, they react to the world and – when a corrupted being (living or dead) – they have a semblance of their old personality to them (such as many veteran risen we see throughout Orr, like Kitah’s Conjurer – or the risen on the Indomitable in Sea of Sorrows that drax talks about though he named the wrong novel). They tend to function solo, but react – often with speech and tauntings – to others in more than a “see it, kill it” manner that grunts function in.

The champions, the strongest and smartest group, are those capable of leading armies. They’re capable of having true conversations, and can even opt out of fighting non-minions, and are capable of wide strategies.

Mordrem Guard subvert this categorization for the same reason sylvari do, though the reason is left unanswered. They are a literal anomaly.

Mordrem, such as the wolves, trolls, husks, thrashers, saurians, hylek, grunts, etc. all appear to – largely – be of the grunt variety. Some do escape that, but they’re the more powerful ones and – like the Megadestroyer – can function on smarter levels.

We never actually see or hear about Mordremoth “bestowing conscious thought” – his domain of mind was literally, to the best of all our knowledge, restricted to telepathy with those that shared his corruption, transferring his consciousness to his corruption on a 1:1 scale (so in theory he could have taken over some mordrem like how Harbinger takes over Collectors in ME2… sadly, Mordremoth never did), and create a copy of his mind in Trahearne (why Trahearne and not some minion far far away? Probably because Trahearne wasn’t truly corrupted).

Rognik.2579:

In fact, to prove the opposite, that elder dragons can have sentient thoughts, I point to Glint. Sure, the Forgotten had to cleanse her with magic first, but I doubt that magic granted her her powers, to write the Flameseeker Prophecies, to befriend the heroes when they arrived in her lair. There is a dragon minion that was sapient, with or without free will.

All Elder Dragons can create minions with sapience. I never said they couldn’t – in fact, I explicitly stated they can and do, and that most of these times they are dragon champions (such as Glint was).

We see many dragon minions that are sapient – most being risen, and most following Gorr’s discoveries: the more powerful they are, the smarter they are, and they are more powerful and smarter because more corrupted magic was put into them.

Squee.7829:

I’m not sure if this post has moved too far past this point or not, but do you think it’s possible the Pale Tree was so disconnected from Mordremoth’s influence is because it grew in a river infested with bloodstone magic? The bloodstones were, in fact designed to hide or hold things (a thing. Magic) from dragons.

Or do you think it was too far down the river to really matter? I think the water around the Pale Tree in EotN lacked the buff you get further up river.

Tarnished Coast never had the maguuma healing waters in GW1, definitely don’t in GW2. I don’t think that’s close enough to those waters.

Furthermore, if this was what gave the Pale Tree freedom, then the High Priests of Arah would have broken free of Zhaitan’s enslavement, as they had bloodstone shards – and those are no doubt more powerful than the theoretical bloodstone-powered waters.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

or the risen on the Indomitable in Sea of Sorrows that drax talks about though he named the wrong novel).

Actually, I was referring to the branded ogres in Edge of Destiny – there are brief sections which are written from their perspective.

Only one such ogre, the chieftain which to me seems to have been made a dragon champion (directing all the other minions and all that), so I wouldn’t say that’s a good argument.

Um… My argument is that sapient dragon minions retain their original goals, as long as those goals don’t conflict with the overriding goals of serving the dragon and killing or corrupting those who don’t. As evidenced by the chieftain still caring about avenging his children – that did not conflict with loyalty to the dragon – but loyalty to the dragon was still over all. The context being that if Malyck was corrupted, he would still have “serve the dragon and kil/corrupt those who don’t” as his primary goal.

This seems to apply to the nonsapient minions, too, but they do so by repeating their actions pre-corruption in an automated fashion without real awareness of what’s going on (such as the farmers in Orr who continue to try to farm the dead soil of Orr).

I honestly don’t know why you’re fighting me on this.

(There are, incidentally, brief sections from the POV of the regular ogres when Jennah casts her illusion.)