Age of Giants

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

Thruln the Lost

My people have walked these mountains since before the humans came, since before the gods put limits on magic, since before the dragons slept, since the Age of Giants.

I always thought the dialogue of Thruln the Lost, last of the jotun storytellers, was strange. Almost nothing that he says is corroborated by any other source, so it seems clear that it’s almost all wrong in some way or another. But to what extent? The inaccuracies probably came about due to the oral nature of jotun record-keeping coupled with the fact that the number of storytellers have been declining, but there will have been some grains of truth in there, even if warped to a jotun perspective, to begin with. This thread attempts to re-examine Thruln’s dialogue in terms of recent clarifications on what actually happened in the history of magic, and pose the question of what new things we might be able to learn from Thruln’s dialogue.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

THE GODS

Thruln the Lost: “The gods once favored the giants, the jotun. They gave us magic and blessed us with knowledge of mechanical and magical things.”
Player: “What happened?”
Thruln the Lost: “The gods threatened to take magic from us. They were afraid we would use it against them. Our confusion was great, and the jotun kings began to fight among themselves.”
Player: “And then?”
Thruln the Lost: “The gods became unhappy with us. They took magic away from us and handed it in measured bites to their favorite races. My people have been sliding deeper and deeper into darkness ever since.”

At first glance, this is the most surprising of Thruln’s revelations, but is actually probably the easiest to explain. We know that the dragons had gone back to sleep, and the gods felt that it was safe to return the magic stored in the Bloodstone to Tyria, so they “unsealed” the Bloodstone and magic flowed back into the world. This is what Thruln means when he says that the gods once favoured the jotun, in the same way that the humans believe that they were the favoured ones, when first given magic.

Thruln interprets the withdrawal of magic and subsequent redistribution as the gods becoming unhappy with the jotun (more on that later), but as we all know, it was actually a response to the pleas of King Doric, who sought to end the wars that had broken out over the course of hundreds of years. The gods drew magic back into the Bloodstone and shattered it into pieces, limiting the power of magic.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

THE ARRIVAL OF THE HUMANS

Thruln the Lost: “The humans came in boats from across the great water. At first, they kept to the shores, but then they spread across the land and into our mountains.”
Player: “What then?”
Thruln the Lost: “In the beginning, humans lived like grawl. The gods had not yet noticed them. Their magic was primitive: fire, earth, air and water. My jotun ancestors helped them survive.”
Player: “What happened next?”
Thruln the Lost: “Humans collected on the high plains. Tribes became settlements. Settlements became a kingdom. And that was when the gods noticed them and betrayed the jotun.”

The humans were brought to Tyria from…somewhere across the Mists, and did not come with much magic of their own. The first known humans appeared in Cantha in 786 BE, and in Tyria and Elona around 200 BE. So Thruln saying they came from across “the great water” (presumably the Unending Ocean) doesn’t contradict any known lore, and actually gives us a clue as to what kind of point in history he is talking about here.

But Thruln must have his chronology a little confused somewhere. It would seem to suggest that the jotun had magic at a time that the humans did not, when as far as we know the gods unsealed the Bloodstone for everyone at the same time. From what Thruln says further down, the Age of Giants could well predate the gods unsealing the Bloodstone (which then would have acted to only further the greatness of the jotun and norn, rather than beginning it), so it’s possible that the jotun were helping the humans survive while also not having magic, but the fact that he says that the gods noticed the humans and betrayed the jotun after this, without any mention of the races being given magic, suggests that they did in fact have magic.

This, really, is part of a bigger discussion about several long-standing apparent inconsistencies in the history of magic. When the gods first gave magic to the races of Tyria, did they give it to everyone? If they didn’t give it to the humans, or the humans arrived after the first round of magic-giving and therefore didn’t get any until the second round, this would help to explain Thruln’s dialogue, but then all the human records seem to suggest that humans did get magic the first time round. This “first round”, according to humans, was in 1 BE, but Angel said that Doric’s plea to the gods came only after hundreds of years of wars. And as Thruln points out, the grawl seem to this day to have access only to very primitive magic, and the charr didn’t receive magic strong enough to rival the humans until 870 AE, according to the Ecology of the Charr. It could just be a consequence of biology – magical aptitude is in part, at least, inherent to an individual, so it makes sense that it’d be inherent to a race as well. Maybe when the Bloodstone was unsealed, magic reached different races at different rates, based on their proximity to the ley lines. More research needs to be done in this area, but until we know more we should regard Thruln’s explanation in this area with some suspicion, since there are far more solid sources that contradict him on this.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

THE DRAGONS

Thruln the Lost: “Stories of the ancient time of dragons are rare, mostly forgotten. When I was young, an old jotun came to our fire, and told us about a time before the dragons slept.”
Player: “What was is like?”
Thruln the Lost: “Magic was wild. The dragons were merciless conquerers. They had the entire world under their talons.”
Player: “What happened?”
Thruln the Lost: “They went to sleep, and the surviving races rebuilt. My jotun ancestors formed kingdoms. Giants, like the jotun and the norn, grew powerful. The chaos was tamed—until
now.”

Nothing much new here. Thruln saying that “magic was wild” in the past probably refers to the fact that before the Bloodstone wkittentered, magic was much more powerful. It seems to suggest, as speculated above, that the jotun giant-kingdoms predate the first unsealing of the Bloodstone.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

THE AGE OF GIANTS

Thruln the Lost: “The Age of Giants was a time when all the world’s giants ruled Tyria. Your people, my people, we had magic like you will never know. Wherever we walked, the ground shook.”
Player: “My norn ancestors too?”
Thruln the Lost: “The other races looked up to the norn and the jotun. We were superior to all other races, and we were gaining on the gods.”
Player: “What happened?”
Thruln the Lost: “The Age of Giants ended when magic was stolen from us. You norn turned to your Spirits of the Wild to redeem your strength and self-respect. We jotun have had no one and nothing to pull us from the quicksand.”

Thruln the Lost attributes the end of the Age of Giants to the gods taking magic from the jotun, which may or may not be true in general but for the specific case of the jotun, we have first-hand evidence that the main conflict was over blood. Elder Thruln (a different character, the ghost of an ancient giant-king) tells the player that the jotun civil war arose out of power, arrogance, and jealousy. He also states that “Our blood is the blood of the mountains”, and “In it, there is power”. I feel like there is some hidden meaning in this statement, perhaps tying into what I said above about magical aptitude being hereditary?

In not this dialogue, but the one above, Thruln says that that giants like the jotun and norn grew powerful. This suggests that there are other giant races that may have reigned in the Age of Giants. This is exciting to me, and if this thread gets completely derailed into research and discussion on the other giant races, I’d be fine with that. The other “giant” races are, as far as I can tell,

  • True Giants, now extinct. It’s unknown if they have any relationship with the other giant races.
  • Giants, of course. The age of this race is not exactly known, but if they’re related to the other races, it’s going to be very old. And the fact that at least some of the giants in Guild Wars (such as the Bull Trainer Giants) are actually probably what we’d now call ogres, suggests that they are indeed related, in some way.
  • Ogres, a race old enough to call even the norn, who were around for the Age of Giants, a young race (from dialogue with Warmaster Forgal Kernsson, if the player is Vigil and chooses to help the ogres of Agrak Kraal). In Guild Wars, ettins, yeti, and jotun were all considered “ogres”, and could pass disease to one another.
  • Kodan, who believe themselves to be the oldest sentient race. The kodan began their spread across the world after a “great storm”. Prior to this, they had been bounded by the seas, but the great storm, which did not end though “month after month and season after season passed”, created the icebergs which the kodan now use for their Sanctuaries. I believe that this great storm was in fact the influence of the Elder Dragon Jormag in its previous rise, which would make the kodan older than that. The kodan also believe that the norn are descended from a lost kodan tribe who spiritually lost their way during the great storm, so this would also help us date the norn.
  • Ettins, trolls, and yeti. Not much is known about them, and if any more detailed lore on these three races exists, then it has yet to be compiled into one place.

The only races that we know reigned during the Age of Giants are the jotun and norn, but we also know that they are not the only two. According to this blog post, “we wanted to make the ogres an old race and follow that with the jotun, since the two species are interlinked”. Interlinked how? Culturally, historically, or physiologically? My bet is all three – the ogres, too, probably reigned during the Age of Giants. The kodan have consistently maintained a culture since the great storm, so they are a strong candidate. As for the rest, your guess is as good as mine. A race being primitive doesn’t necessarily exclude it – just look at the jotun. For all we know, all of them could have once been counted among the giant-kings.

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Posted by: Avariz.8241

Avariz.8241

Initially, before, I thought the same as you. However after reading your essays, I was prompted to think further, and now I speculate that the Gods of Jotun might not be the gods of men. Surely, your Thurin would have called the gods of men, The Six.

For one thing, since the Gods of Jotun were active before the time the Elder Dragons sleeps, then they can not be the Six. This is because the Six only arrived on Tyria after all the Elder Dragons have all gone to sleep.

But then again one possibility is the Six subsequently at a later date joined the pantheon of the initial God/s of Jotun when the god/s was/were replaced by the new arrivals as the Jotun themselves were by other races that included men.

(edited by Avariz.8241)

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Wait, could the “gods” he talks about possibly be tied to the Jotun kings?

The “Betrayal”/magic taking being their infighting causing a chunk of the magic to be lost?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The mention of the gods always seemed odd to me. But not for any reason brought up in this thread. Rather for this reason:

“The closest thing that the jotun have to “religion” is their firm, avowed belief that their blood is magical—that it is powerful, and akin to the divine. Each clan of jotun reveres their ancestors and can trace their lineage back to some powerful giant-king of lore. Many of the tales of these giant-kings have taken on the feel and tenor of religious myths, and each clan calls to their legendary blood to empower them, see them through trials, and ensure them victory. While it cannot be said the jotun “worship” their ancestors, they certainly attempt to emulate them through conquest, single-minded self-absorption, and personal pride.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Savage_Pride_of_the_Jotun#Religion

The jotun do not worship. They hold no gods. So it seems weird that Thruln would all of sudden say “yes, we had gods” when all else says otherwise.

At first glance, this is the most surprising of Thruln’s revelations, but is actually probably the easiest to explain. We know that the dragons had gone back to sleep, and the gods felt that it was safe to return the magic stored in the Bloodstone to Tyria, so they “unsealed” the Bloodstone and magic flowed back into the world. This is what Thruln means when he says that the gods once favoured the jotun, in the same way that the humans believe that they were the favoured ones, when first given magic.

Thruln interprets the withdrawal of magic and subsequent redistribution as the gods becoming unhappy with the jotun (more on that later), but as we all know, it was actually a response to the pleas of King Doric, who sought to end the wars that had broken out over the course of hundreds of years. The gods drew magic back into the Bloodstone and shattered it into pieces, limiting the power of magic.

I do not think this is so. From The Savage Pride of the Jotun:

Some historians believe that the age of jotun magic may even pre-date the coming of the human gods and the creation of the Bloodstones.

Far from definitive proof, but argument enough against it. This also fits with the very first thing you quote of Thruln – especially if we take the “age of jotun magic” to be equivalent to the Age of Giants (which Thruln’s dialogue suggests).

From what Thruln says further down, the Age of Giants could well predate the gods unsealing the Bloodstone (which then would have acted to only further the greatness of the jotun and norn, rather than beginning it), so it’s possible that the jotun were helping the humans survive while also not having magic, but the fact that he says that the gods noticed the humans and betrayed the jotun after this, without any mention of the races being given magic, suggests that they did in fact have magic.

In your first post, you quoted Thruln saying that the Age of Giants was before the Elder Dragons fell asleep.

This means that it predates even the seers creation of the Bloodstone, let alone the Six Gods’ unsealing of it.

And his line about the gods not noticing humanity is contradicted by records in Cantha and Tyria, where the Six Gods knew of them well before-hand. Even the fact that they brought humanity to the world contradicts this.

To me, Thruln’s lines about the gods all stem from one thing:

The jotun’s pride. They are outright said and shown to be an immensely prideful race. They come off as too prideful to say they or their ancestors are the cause of their problems. They certainly are too prideful to worship another race’s gods, and as I quoted from the blog post on jotun, don’t worship any gods at all; the blog also states that they revere their ancestors – so unless they’re calling their ancestors gods, it comes off as Thruln is projecting the blame (perhaps not his own doing but his tale is doing it nonetheless). The only jotun in the entirety of the game that I have ever seen acknowledging the jotun’s faults is the ghost of Elder Thruln in the norn Defeat Our Ancient Foes storyline.

I don’t think there’s some deeper meaning to Thruln the Lost blaming the gods – it seems like it is all just him trying to pass the buck of the jotun’s fall away from the jotun themselves.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

Age of Giants

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Initially, before, I thought the same as you. However after reading your essays, I was prompted to think further, and now I speculate that the Gods of Jotun might not be the gods of men. Surely, your Thurin would have called the gods of men, The Six.

However, we know that he’s talking about the Six Gods because of the ties to humanity. Unless he is saying that another set of completely unknown gods began to favor humanity – which just seems unlikely.

Hence why I hold the stance of Thruln the Lost passing the blame from his prideful race to someone else entirely.

But then again one possibility is the Six subsequently at a later date joined the pantheon of the initial God/s of Jotun when the god/s was/were replaced by the new arrivals as the Jotun themselves were by other races that included men.

Unlikely. Upon arrival – according to the Orrian History Scrolls – Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar each did a rather godly deed. Though nothing prevents that source from being wrong too.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

I don’t think there’s some deeper meaning to Thruln the Lost blaming the gods – it seems like it is all just him trying to pass the buck of the jotun’s fall away from the jotun themselves.

Oh yeah, absolutely. Having thought about it, I think the purpose of Thruln (narratively) isn’t particularly to hint at some as-of-yet unrevealed lore (although there may be nuggets of it in there, which when devoid of context are unidentifiable), but to demonstrate how the different races have such wildly varying interpretations of the same event in history, and to prime the player for revisions of the human perspective of history that we are used to.

I do think this was quite poorly communicated, though. At launch, I , for one read Thruln’s dialogue and shocked that they had such important lore mentioned by one NPC in a city, and never mentioned by anyone else again. It makes a lot more sense if you think of Thruln’s purpose not as revelatory but emblematic of the multiple possible interpretations of history.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Jotun don’t have a religion now. But since the current “religion” is traced back to the giant kings and we know they fell to coveting powerful blood of the mighty giant kings after they lost magic they may well have abandoned any gods when they lost the magic.

or, they acjnowleged the gods as gods but just didn’t worship them. Similar to how the charr do today.

However, I also suspect that there are grains of truth in Thrulns accounting. But since it is NPC’s view it is most likely flawed in some way. Probably many ways. Maybe the jotun saw the seers as ‘gods’. maybe he is speaking of some of the older gods like melandru, whom even the charr acknowledge and whom the humans say is the oldest god. Possibly melandru was part of a different pantheon that included lost personalities before the newer members of the current six took over

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

The Jotun civil war and the loss on magic are different happenings. We even don’t know how much time passed between these two.

In another personal story we fight the Jotun king who gained power from Jormag.

Nice post. Haven’t considered to search for elder gods by now, but everything looks like there are some native gods of Tyria.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: Zenyatoo.4059

Zenyatoo.4059

“But Thruln must have his chronology a little confused somewhere. It would seem to suggest that the jotun had magic at a time that the humans did not, when as far as we know the gods unsealed the Bloodstone for everyone at the same time. "
I dont believe this is bad chronology. Part of the concern is what the original bloodstone actually did. We know it contained non-elder dragon magic. But that’s the extent of our knowledge.

Consider, the jotun must have been up and about before the 10,000 year ago elder dragon awakening. Else they could not have fought, and been in the tome of rubicon.

Secondly, its unlikely that the bloodstone prevented the usage of, or the distribution of ALL magic. The bloodstone was created by the seers, not the gods. And while we do not have an exact date on the gods appearance in tyria, it seems as if it may have been sometime AFTER the creation of the bloodstone.

Additionally, as we know from asuran technology, the elder dragons themselves bleed magic out into the world while sleeping. The bloodstone was specifically non elder dragon magic. Which still leaves 6 potent magical energy sources in the world, including one right under Arah.

AND, we can assume that the gods are capable of harnessing elder dragon magic (when splitting the bloodstone, and even creating their city in Arah, they did so over the top of Zhaitan, most likely because of the innate magical power there)

Essentially the jotun had some form of magic before the gods showed up.
It got sealed into the bloodstone by the seers (for whatever purpose)
The gods show up, and either they began to harness the bloodstones magic, or that of the dragons. This they shared with specific races, including the Jotun.
Sometime later, the gods decide, “hey screw these Jotun and Norn guys”
A lot later, abaddon decides that ALL races deserve magic, not just the ones that are favored, and goes to unseal the bloodstone. For this and the subsequent war, he is punished.
The bloodstone is sundered into 5 pieces.

Given that the norn are not mentioned (as far as I know) in the tome of rubicon, it seems that the age of giants the jotun spoke of was probably post elder dragon awakening and defeat. The seers would have been mostly wiped out, the mursaat would have already phased out of the world. The dwarves were most likely under the mountains. The forgotten probably chilling wherever it is they hung out. Leaving the Jotun as the dominant race in Tyria (the continent)

The question is whether the actions of the gods led to the Jotun downfall. And what those actions were. It seems unlikely that merely withholding magic could cause such rapid devolution, civil war or not. Especially as the Jotun should have had access to the elder dragon magic. Perhaps the gods did something a little more drastic, or perhaps the jotun did some very very stupid (think Nuclear bomb WW3 type stupid) and blasted themselves back into the stone age.

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Posted by: Avariz.8241

Avariz.8241

Sorry my computer crashed after I had written a long version and now I had to go out so I had make do with a truncated version.

There were a time of Age of Giants for Tyria’s pre dawn pre historical past, but giants of that age are a genus different from the Jotun and Norn.

The genus of that age were made up of a number of a few species. I believe an example of the genus can be shown by the smaller species of giants that currently exist as the dead remains of the risen giant champions on orrian Cursed Shore.

I think Thuln were referring to his own genus composed of Jotun, Norn, Ogre, and Ettin.

In the same way I believe the Age of Dragons should really refer to the genus of dragons in Tyeria’s pre dawn pre historical past and should not be referred to the Elder Dragons.

(edited by Avariz.8241)