Guild Wars 2

I wasn’t sure where to put this, since there are already several threads covering similar ground. But I think this idea is more to do with the many-dragon theory with how dragons consume magic anyway, but I could be wrong. Anyway, what I am about to posit is a theory on the origin of the Elder Dragons. Pretty big deal.

We know that the more magic imbued in a dragon minion by its master, the more power and self-determination it has. The most powerful (and usually, biggest) minions tend to be the ones with the most magic. Something we’ve missed, I think, is that of course this applies to non-dragon minions as well! The question of what happens when we kill an Elder Dragon got me thinking: what will happen to Zhaitan’s corpse? If an Elder Dragon dies, then the amount of magic that dragon has consumed is effectively “returned” to the world, free to be captured in magical items, like the Aspects, to radiate from the dragon’s corpse, or to be…wait for it, consumed by other Elder Dragons. Then, in order to reduce the world to a low level of magic once again, as is the Dragons’ purpose, each Dragon would need to consume more magic than before, as there is more “free” magic in the world (another way you could view would be to say that you have one less dragon, to consume the same amount of magic). But then, since we know that the amount of power one has is proportional to the amount of magic imbued in oneself, this would mean that the remaining Elder Dragons would have the potential to become more powerful than before! So by killing Zhaitan, we haven’t really decreased the amount of power that we need to overcome, only concentrated it into fewer places!

This works on a narrative level as well; the question since the end of the personal story has been how will the story maintain any sort of tension going forward, now that the races are unified and we have a Pact capable of killing Elder Dragons (and apparently without too much difficulty, although that might just be because there wasn’t much tension in the personal story to begin with)? I think most assumed that with the awakening of Mordremoth, the sylvari would turn out to be dragon minions and the unity of the races would fall apart (although given the recent souring of public opinion in Lion’s Arch against the sylvari, it wouldn’t surprise me if something like this could still happen), but now a more obvious answer appears: each Dragon is more dangerous than the last.

So where is the promised theory on the origin of the Elder Dragons? Well, what follows is speculation that, although it has nothing to disprove it, also has nothing solid to support it. All it has going for it is that it “fits”, and I believe it is the simplest explanation given the evidence we currently have. It comes from taking what was said above, about the remaining Elder Dragons becoming more powerful each time one of its brethren dies, and extrapolates backward, operating under the assumption of the many-dragon theory (that there are, or were, more dragons than jut the six we know of).

The theory would be this: long ago, when the world was young, there was a race of dragons that were spread across the world. Their memory can be seen in the architecture and culture of the Canthan Empire even to this day. Perhaps they were sentient, perhaps they were only sapient. At some point, they evolved, were given, or otherwise developed the ability to consume magic, which would increase the power of the individual who did so. It’d be as if humans, who are born with a variable inherent aptitude for magic, suddenly became able to simply take magic from others and become more powerful.

Survival of the fittest kicked in, and before long, the only dragons that were left were ones that could consume magic. The individuals of that race, greedy for more power, turned on one another, destroying each other and becoming each powerful with each death. They developed techniques for dominating and corrupting one another, enslaving weaker dragons to their service. Glint, Tequatl, and the Claws of Jormag are all descendants of these dragon champions, if not those dragons themselves.

The so-called “Elder Dragons” consumed all the magic of the world, in cycles of awakening and destruction. By 10,000 BE, they had reached an impasse – only six remained, each too powerful and different to be killed by any other. They converged on the continent of Tyria, circling one another’s domains. And the rest, as they say…

very nice Tamias. I likey.

In regards to the Elder Dragons consuming more magic and becoming more powerful, this is only true in the long term unless the rate of their consumption grows as well. And if it doesn’t, then it may mean that the time in which the Elder Dragons are awake grows, and perhaps even that one or two Elder Dragons alone could remain awake indefinitely. On a narrative, the very difference between the dragons, their means of corruption, and their “element” changes their difficulty in facing. With only corrupting corpses directly, Zhaitan would be the easiest to deal with in regards to its corruption because the others can corrupt living beings (thus it turns from “the fallen become our enemies” to “those we send become our enemies”).

As to your origin theory – this was more or less presented to me in the same mindset by Thalador some time ago. No means to debunk it, but I don’t think the Elder Dragons were of this possible ancient dragon race. Zhaitan looks far to un-draconic when we fight him, looking more like an eldritch abomination made to look somewhat draconian. Plus, can natural beings live without actual eating? Seems a bit weird to me (though possible…).

Very much like how Spear of Torment demons look like mockeries of centaurs, or Herald of Nightmares demons look like Ntouka Birds. And just how imps consume magic and grow in size and power as they do and demons consume souls – I think that the Elder Dragons are effectively demons that are made in mimicry of the ancient dragon race, and have since found means of changing and enslaving other beings from all that magic they consumed – perhaps in a similar means to how Abaddon changed the Margonites (you got to admit, there is a similarity there in terms of physical changes).

Do we even see natural Dragons? We see Drakes yet they have been seen in the Fissure of Woe so for all we know they too are Demons.

Most Plant monsters are called Demons(especially the Ibogas and Jacarandas created by Nightfall) including Urgoz(after going mad with rage after his forest was ruined).

Sylvari, Trees, Juggernauts and Thorn Wolves are the only Plants confirmed to not be Demons(created by Magic or otherwise).

Margonites are Demons incase you forgot. Magically changed beings are all Demons.

We do know that there were some plant monsters made from elementalist magic. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unnatural_Growths

ehh, I’d question that definition of demon. A-net seems to categorize them as mutations rather than lump them all up as demons.

“What make certain plants sentient and others not is due to mutations caused by an excessive amount of magic in the area”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jacaranda

How is that not Demon? We’re treating Elder Dragons as Demons so why should Elementalist created Plants be any different?

Why would juggernauts be any different? They are changed by magic. By your definition, they are demons.

Good point! Juggernauts are Demons. Demons of a sort that’s allied with Humans like Grentches and Razah.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Total_Corruption shows that the Plants are Demons.

On a related note: Trees and Sylvari’s place as either Demon or natural are ambiguous since we don’t know if Trees are magicborn Demons or if Sylvari are created by Mordremoth and thus Demons.

Terrorwebs aren’t in the ingame Demon family yet have Demonic Fangs for a reason.

The Nightmares of the Underworld have Demonic Remains for a reason. Titans are called Demonic Servants of Abbadon for a reason.

That shows that those plants are demons. And the common themes with the plants labeled as demons seems to be corruption from evil magic.

edit: yep, it’s the “evil” but not just any evil. Evil from the mists

“demons find ways into our world, where they feast on suffering, despair, and the vital energy of intelligent creatures.” " Whether they appear as monstrous humanoids, bestial abominations, or radically inhuman horrors, they share many of the same aspirations: the strong consume or dominate the weak, reveling in their feasts and victimization. As they are not native to the real world, demons hold an abiding hatred of its denizens."
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Demon

Even Urgoz? According to the Manual his followers weren’t altered by the Jade Wind and yet are still called Demons.

If Plants created by Elementalists aren’t considered Demons then Koing’s claim that Elder Dragons are Demons is flawed.

Considering the Nightmares of the Underworld are Demons would it be logical to assume all Nightmares are Ghosts turned Demon?…. Or not?

I’d go with a-nets definition of demon. As for Konigs theory on the ED’s being demons. They may well be. We have no idea where they came from or really the intention behind their actions. All we know is that they were here before the gods. Are they here to revel in the misery they cause or are they just very intelligent, hungery animals/forces of nature? We don’t know yet.

edit: There seems to be a lot of corruption going on with Urgaz.

Urgoz: Breathe deeply the corruption of the forest…share its agony!
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Urgoz

and an awful lot of them are “maddened”. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Category:Urgoz%27s_Warren_NPCs

Some kind of Elemental or Nature Spirit of a high and powerful class I’d assume.

if you’re referring to the ED’s, I’m more inclined to lean toward this as well. My own personal theory encompasses the Eternal Alchemy and the Norn outlook of the Spirits. That ED’s, Spirits of the Wild and gods are all different types of beings within the same categorization. perhaps ED’s are the embodiment of ancient primordial powers.

Erm, Mickey, Dustfinger.

Changed beings are not demons. Demons are 1) creatures living within the Mists directly, and 2) made directly from the Mists – many are malevolent by nature, and most look like incomplete or messed up copies of other things. A few rare (in the whole scope of things) are like Razah, a complete copy and not as malevolent.

Margonites are only demons in the notion that they were changed into demons; the act of being changed isn’t what made them demons, but what they were changed into. Though one can argue that they’re not “real” demons and this would be true – half of the whole “Margonites are demons” come from mechanics.

Urgoz is not a demon – Urgoz is a forest spirit, a spirit of the land (much akin to the Spirits of the Wild) who had gone insane from the petrification of the Echovald Forest (his home, land, and in a way, his self) – kind of similar to Minotaur Spirit’s rampaging when the Sons of Svanir hunted minotaurs down constantly (see norn personal story “Honor the Spirits” or w/e it’s called). And he isn’t corrupting so much as driving folks insane. Something that can be done with even mundane means (torture, isolation, sleep deprivation, etc.).

We are not considering Elder Dragons to be demons, rather it is my theory that they are a type of demon.

Juggernauts are not demons. They are constructs. The mobile plants are not demons, they’re magically affected plants.

Ah, nice. We see that the corruption that creates a new demon begins in the mists. The corruption affects some of the new shards of creation. (as the mists are the building blocks of reality). If comes from the large malignant forces already in the mists. Where those “demon lords” (Lords of anguish http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lords_of_Anguish) come from, who knows? definitely the mists but why are they malignant?

Dreadspawn Maw creates Torment Creatures, Abbadon creates Margonites, the Terrorweb Queen creates Terrorwebs, Kanaxai creates Oni and Grenth creates Grentches.

Why do you theorize that Elder Dragons are Demons again? Is it because Zhaitan is Eldritch Abomination to your mind? Most undragon-like thing I see about it is the multiple heads/wings/tails and even that dosen’t seem all that absurd for a Dragon Lich.

It may just be my tired mind but I see a Pale Tree analogy here. The mists create things. malice enters the mists through beings like Abbadon, Lord Jadoth, etc. now evil is created and propogated. In essence, the mists becomes corrupted.

The same way the Nightmare court is trying to corrupt the dream.

The Guild Wars Nightfall manuscripts define ‘demon’ thus:

Outside the world we know, other dimensions exist, realms beyond what we can see and experience. Civilized humans know that when they die, their souls pass on into the Mists, the realm of the afterlife. Some spirits linger in this world, or find ways to walk back into the realm of flesh…yet there are other creatures who watch them and wait, drawn to the energy of countless souls.
Sometimes souls are not enough. In dimensions alien to the physical world, sentient entities scheme of ways to enter the realm of flesh, dreaming of the havoc they can wreak. Just as ghosts can defy death by returning to the land of the living, demons find ways into our world, where they feast on suffering, despair, and the vital energy of intelligent creatures.
Demons are more than creatures of the Mists—they are made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power. Whether they appear as monstrous humanoids, bestial abominations, or radically inhuman horrors, they share many of the same aspirations: the strong consume or dominate the weak, reveling in their feasts and victimization. As they are not native to the real world, demons hold an abiding hatred of its denizens. They are also ruthlessly intelligent, more than willing to enter into arrangements that allow them to routinely prey on humans and other foolish living creatures.

I’m not sure Elder Dragons fit this. Everything we know about the Dragons says that they are a natural force within Tyria, just as much a part of the world as the grawl, or the dwarves. They have a role within Tyria’s ecosystem, and some kodan believe they are a force for balance. I mean, everything comes from the Mists if you follow it back far enough, but Dragons in particular seem to each embody a different aspect of nature, rather than standing opposed to it.

Imps gaining size and power with magic absorption isn’t evidence enough for the Dragons being demons, imo—natural-born creatures, like Ploink’s raptor are subject to exactly the same phenomenon. Zhaitan’s appearance was far more draconic, for most of development, and was likely changed to make it appear more distinctive than a generic fantasy dragon (Primordus, who we have also seen in the flesh, looks a lot more like a traditional dragon). Ree kinds of picks up on this in this interview and suggests that one of the reasons for Zhaitan’s appearance is due to the long campaign of weakening by the Pact before we encounter it.

Although this does remind me of something else. drax’s theory that the Dream is a part of the Mists would mean that the sylvari are, in a sense, demons, although not necessarily malign ones. We know that with a suitable template, demons can exist without necessarily being evil. In fact, much of the description of Razah is also reminiscent of the sylvari – think of all the talk of human templates, and needing a purpose.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Dreadspawn Maw creates Torment Creatures, Abbadon creates Margonites, the Terrorweb Queen creates Terrorwebs, Kanaxai creates Oni and Grenth creates Grentches.

Why do you theorize that Elder Dragons are Demons again? Is it because Zhaitan is Eldritch Abomination to your mind? Most undragon-like thing I see about it is the multiple heads/wings/tails and even that dosen’t seem all that absurd for a Dragon Lich.

Dreadspawn Maw and Terrorweb Queen are procreating. Abaddon (not Abbadon) isn’t creating but changing. We have no proof that Grenth created the Grentches (rather we have evidence to say that’s not the case ), and Kanaxai doesn’t create either, he changes.

I already explained why I theorize ED are demons. Read above. It has nothing to do with their corruptive abilities, but the fact they survive off of magic. Imps, a type of demon, feed off of elemental magic and grow bigger and stronger as they feed off of more elemental magic – very similar to Elder Dragons, except the imps are more restricted in what they can and cannot consume (if they eat magic that isn’t of their element, they die). Similarly, other demons (dryders, torment demons, Margonites) consume souls, which are heavily implied to be tied somehow to magic – and Jormag also consumed a soul before (Owl Spirit).

Tamias.7059:

I’m not sure Elder Dragons fit this. Everything we know about the Dragons says that they are a natural force within Tyria, just as much a part of the world as the grawl, or the dwarves. They have a role within Tyria’s ecosystem, and some kodan believe they are a force for balance. I mean, everything comes from the Mists if you follow it back far enough, but Dragons in particular seem to each embody a different aspect of nature, rather than standing opposed to it.

People say they have a natural role, but almost all ties to nature and natural roles come from NPC speculation, the Tyrian’s point of view, and them simply not understanding the true nature (for lack of a better word) of the Elder Dragons.

In fact, by upholding the stance that they are a natural force here, you are arguing against your own “survivors of an ancient race” theory from earlier.

As we learn from Edge of Destiny, Jormag and Kralkatorrik are both very much malignant – we see into their very thoughts. So they aren’t the impassive forces the Zephyrites and others take them to be, as those third person perspectives are overruled by the first person thoughts.

Tamias.7059:

Zhaitan’s appearance was far more draconic, for most of development, and was likely changed to make it appear more distinctive than a generic fantasy dragon (Primordus, who we have also seen in the flesh, looks a lot more like a traditional dragon). Ree kinds of picks up on this in this interview and suggests that one of the reasons for Zhaitan’s appearance is due to the long campaign of weakening by the Pact before we encounter it.

Ree also says that the art in the cinematics is how the players perceives Zhaitan would look like, before actually seeing it. How something was during development isn’t so important as the final result – which is what we see in-game. We sadly do not know what Zhaitan looked like before being weakened, sans from the Sea of Sorrows very generic description of “Dark, tattered wings, as if something long dead was rising from the grave.” (page 65) which doesn’t give much (though does give the mental image Zhaitan may have been undead himself like many presume just from him controlling undead). We don’t really see much of Primordus – just a head and neck, leaving the rest of the body to look like whatever ArenaNet wants it to look like.

But even so, imps are fairly draconic looking, wouldn’t you say?

Tamias.7059:

Although this does remind me of something else. drax’s theory that the Dream is a part of the Mists would mean that the sylvari are, in a sense, demons, although not necessarily malign ones. We know that with a suitable template, demons can exist without necessarily being evil. In fact, much of the description of Razah is also reminiscent of the sylvari – think of all the talk of human templates, and needing a purpose.

Drax wasn’t the first to come up with the theory – not publicly, at least. I mentioned it over a year ago on these forums. So it isn’t just “Drax’s theory.” (No, it doesn’t matter, but ever since the “WoodenPotatoes theories that <insert common theory presented on the forums>” spread – attribution to theories has bothered me).

Though I wouldn’t say sylvari are demons even if that theory rings true – because their bodies are not born from the Mists, but the Pale Tree. They’re much more akin to the kodan Voices, and less so to the norn Havrouns, whom have mental ties to the Mists.

Aside from diet, and leathery wings, I don’t see much similarity between imps and dragons.

Bats and pterraodons shared appearance and diet. As do sharks and dolphins, or Crocodiles and Ambulocetus.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

People say they have a natural role, but almost all ties to nature and natural roles come from NPC speculation, the Tyrian’s point of view, and them simply not understanding the true nature (for lack of a better word) of the Elder Dragons.

In fact, by upholding the stance that they are a natural force here, you are arguing against your own “survivors of an ancient race” theory from earlier.

As we learn from Edge of Destiny, Jormag and Kralkatorrik are both very much malignant – we see into their very thoughts. So they aren’t the impassive forces the Zephyrites and others take them to be, as those third person perspectives are overruled by the first person thoughts.

They can be malign and still natural. In the framework above, they are a race that consumed themselves in greed for power, and for all we know possessing that level of power is corruptive anyway. We know they aren’t impassive – they’re frequently described as greedy, for example. We know what motivates them, it’s just that they’re so powerful and so single-minded in their pursuit of their goals that they appear to be impassive forces of nature. They aren’t forces of nature, but they are natural (or so the theory goes, anyway).

Actually, I think most mentions of the Dragons being natural aren’t in-game, like you say, but interviews and articles. I’m not going to look now, but one I can think of off the top of my head is this one, where Angel speaks of the “natural role” of the Dragons, and “[the citizens of Tyria are] as much a natural part of the world as are the dragons”.

Tamias.7059:

Ree also says that the art in the cinematics is how the players perceives Zhaitan would look like, before actually seeing it. How something was during development isn’t so important as the final result – which is what we see in-game. We sadly do not know what Zhaitan looked like before being weakened, sans from the Sea of Sorrows very generic description of “Dark, tattered wings, as if something long dead was rising from the grave.” (page 65) which doesn’t give much (though does give the mental image Zhaitan may have been undead himself like many presume just from him controlling undead). We don’t really see much of Primordus – just a head and neck, leaving the rest of the body to look like whatever ArenaNet wants it to look like.

But even so, imps are fairly draconic looking, wouldn’t you say?

Yeah, absolutely. And like the Dragons, they seem to “pick” an element, or a kind of magic, which this theory doesn’t account for. But there’s nothing actually connecting imps and Dragons, and it goes against all the things we think we know about the Dragons being natural as opposed to otherworldly (as above).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though I wouldn’t say sylvari are demons even if that theory rings true – because their bodies are not born from the Mists, but the Pale Tree. They’re much more akin to the kodan Voices, and less so to the norn Havrouns, whom have mental ties to the Mists.

If you believe that the Dream is a (meta)physical location, as you said in this thread, then the sylvari physically occupy both Tyria and the Dream during development. They grow inside pods on the Tree, but they also physically exist inside the Dream, which, according to that theory, is inside the Mists. So if the Dream is in the Mists, then the sylvari do, in a sense, come from the Mists, since the Dream is where they mentally and emotionally develop. It’s just that their physical form is created in Tyria. The main difference between sylvari and demons, then, would be that the sylvari maintain a connection with the Mists (albeit a weaker one) after they come into the world.

The mists are the building blocks of reality. Not everything in the mists is demonic. The link says that demons come from shards of existence that get corrupted.

edit: The lore says razah specifically isn’t a demonic entity. And, the similarities between Razah and the sylvari seem suspiciously similar.

“The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.”

“Razah is one such creation. It has sprung into being a fully-formed adult. It has the knowledge and capabilities of a human, but lacks common sense. As a result, it asks odd questions about human emotions, contemplates human motivations, and attempts to duplicate human mannerisms. Razah is a contradiction: more than human in some ways, and less than human in others. It needs an identity, a personality, and a purpose. Hopefully, it will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Razah

Dustfinger.9510:

The mists are the building blocks of reality. Not everything in the mists is demonic. The link says that demons come from shards of existence that get corrupted.

edit: The lore says razah specifically isn’t a demonic entity. Though, the similarities between Razah and the sylvari seem suspiciously similar.

“The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.”

“Razah is one such creation. It has sprung into being a fully-formed adult. It has the knowledge and capabilities of a human, but lacks common sense. As a result, it asks odd questions about human emotions, contemplates human motivations, and attempts to duplicate human mannerisms. Razah is a contradiction: more than human in some ways, and less than human in others. It needs an identity, a personality, and a purpose. Hopefully, it will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Razah

It seems that this is saying that Razah is physiologically identical to demons, but not called a demon purely because of his personality and attitude. So the definition of a demon would seem to be something created from the Mists, but also “evil”. It’s a bit of a nebulous definition, but on physiological terms, Razah is a demon, and so too are the sylvari (if the theory holds).

And yeah, as I said above, the similarities are definitely there. Razah clearly had a “suitable human template”, and in the case of the sylvari, the “suitable human template” is whatever inspired the Pale Tree (which we’re saying here is an agent of the Mists) to interpret and create the sylvari in the image of humans (I still wanna say the corpses of Ronan’s family, but Malyck’s sylvari would suggest otherwise). Razah’s identity, personality, and purpose were given to him by Abaddon, but they were taken away with the Ascension of Kormir, leaving him without any of those things. The identity and personality of the sylvari is guided by the Ventari Tablet, and the purpose, well…that’s the question on everyone’s lips at the moment (collectively, at least – individual sylvari are given purpose by their Wyld Hunts or Dark Hunts, depending on affiliation). Malyck’s sylvari, on the other hand, seem to have the same template as those of the Pale Tree, and an identity and personality much closer to human (like Razah, actually).

Another way to look at it: Razah’s name comes from the Latin tabula rasa (meaning “blank slate”), as does, apparently, his personality. The sylvari have a very literal slate, and it is not blank. Malyck’s sylvari, on the other hand, have nothing like that as far as we know, which is why the Knight of Embers believed that they would fall to Nightmare much more easily. They are, like Razah, a blank slate.

Don’t rely to much on this analogy, by the way – it does not account for the major difference between the sylvari and Razah, namely their continued connection to the Mists. Mind you, Razah is described as sharing “a connection with all things spiritual”, which is why be default he is a powerful Ritualist.

An an amusing aside, duplicate versions of Razah in the player’s party will be named “Mysterious Entity”, although I’m sure that’s just a coincidence.

Tamias.7059:

It seems that this is saying that Razah is physiologically identical to demons, but not called a demon purely because of his personality and attitude. So the definition of a demon would seem to be something created from the Mists, but also “evil”. It’s a bit of a nebulous definition, but on physiological terms, Razah is a demon, and so too are the sylvari (if the theory holds).

And yeah, as I said above, the similarities are definitely there. In the case of the sylvari, the “suitable human template” is whatever inspired the Pale Tree (which we’re saying here is an agent of the Mists) to interpret and create the sylvari in the image of humans. The identity and personality of the sylvari is guided by the Ventari Tablet, and the purpose, well…that’s the question on everyone’s lips at the moment. Malyck’s sylvari, on the other hand, seem to have the same template as those of the Pale Tree, and an identity and personality much closer to human (like Razah, actually).

Another way to look at it: Razah’s name comes from the Latin tabula rasa (meaning “blank slate”), as does, apparently, his personality. The sylvari have a very literal slate, and it is not blank (incidentally, we know this does not account for the other major difference between the sylvari and Razah, namely their connection to the Mists). Malyck’s sylvari, on the other hand, have nothing like that as far as we know, which is why the Knight of Embers believed that they would fall to Nightmare much more easily. They are, like Razah, a blank slate.

Calling Razah a demon is like saying that Mylack is Nightmare Court, only, he just happens to be good. That doesn’t make sense since the base standard is Mylack and the corrupted version is the courtiers.

Since demons are corrupted versions, I’d say Razah isn’t a demon but that demons are evil (due to corruption) versions of beings like Razah. I’d question why we are trying to make the evil and confirmed corrupted version of the creatures as the standard.

And the definition a-net has supplied specifically states that demons are corrupted and evil. Motivated to feed on the misery they cause. if razah doesn’t fit that definition then he isn’t a demon. No matter what other relation is there.

edit; changed the example from “sylvari” to “mylack” for accuracy.

Dustfinger.9510:

Calling Razah a demon is like saying that Mylack is Nightmare Court, only, he just happens to be good. That doesn’t make sense since the base standard is Mylack and the corrupted version is the courtiers.

Since demons are corrupted versions, I’d say Razah isn’t a demon but that demons are evil (due to corruption) versions of beings like Razah. I’d question why we are trying to make the evil and confirmed corrupted version of the creatures as the standard.

And the definition a-net has supplied specifically states that demons are corrupted and evil. Motivated to feed on the misery they cause. if razah doesn’t fit that definition then he isn’t a demon. No matter what other relation is there.

edit; changed the example from “sylvari” to “mylack” for accuracy.

Demons are, by definition, evil, yes – but corrupted? Demons are created the way they are, sometimes in a mockery of existing beings (although I suspect this was mainly to save ANet’s 3D modellers from having to create new meshes), sure, but they aren’t created by taking those beings and twisting them (with the exception of the Margonites). All I am stating is that the sylvari according to this theory, and Razah, are demons in a sense. Not necessarily demons, but they could become demons through their actions (so the Nightmare Court would qualify as demons, I suppose). But all this is semantics, really. The crux of the argument over whether or not the Elder Dragons are demons really rests on whether they come from the Mists or not, rather than what terminology we decide to use for Razah.

The “demon” link says: “Demons are malicious creatures born from shards of existence within the Mists that have turned corrupted.”

that doesn’t necessarily mean a being needs to be made and then twisted. But a shard of reality definitely needs to be corrupted in order to create the demon the way it is. So the corruption is necessary.

I think the semantics of razah is important because labeling him as a demon is misleading. and it will only cause problems later on if we do get confirmation of where the ED’s come from.

e.g.: Say we know they come from the mists. They still might not be demons since a demon has a specific goal. To feast on suffering and despair. Do the ED’s do this or are they simply hungry for magic?

Taimas, you seem to take the “natural role” and “like nature” in the Elder Dragons’ description to mean “from Tyria.” With the exception of one line by Angel McCoy in the E’Spirits interview, all usage of the “nature” is referring to them being like forces of nature – blizzards, sandstorms, etc. Not that they’re native.

Even Angel’s line, which is just saying that biologically they balance magic in the world by consuming and releasing it, doesn’t say they’re native.

Natural != native

You know, you guys have me thinking a bit. Most things found in the Mists are mockeries (to some extent) of creature existing in other planes of existence, such as Tyria. I have to wonder if the magic consuming demons found within the Mists aren’t mockeries of the Elder Dragons. I mean, we’re looking at Elder Dragons and saying that they act like Imps, but in reality, ED’s have been around longer, so by all means imps are acting like ED’s.

So by all means, Konig could be right, but there is a distinct possibility that ED’s are natural to Tyria. As to the theory at hand, the physical form of ED’s wouldn’t be a deterrent in my mind to them having originated as regular dragons in an early draconian race. I mean, what does that kind of concentration of magic do to the physical form of something?

We don’t know how old imps are in existence, actually – so there’s no proof that “EDs have been around longer.”

I think there may be a 7th dragon. That new dragon finisher looks way different from anything we currently have in-game.

The PvP rank finisher? I doubt it holds much lore relevance. The GW1 PvP rank emotes never did. Though that dragon finisher looked more like a Saltspray Dragon come to think of it. This looks like a non-crystallized lightning-attuned Glint. Going off of the dulfy images (which don’t show much at all).

Well, it looks way too fleshy to be something Kral came up with. Perhaps a sky ED based Dragon Champion or… Or perhaps it is one of Glint’s children?

Or perhaps unrelated to the Elder Dragons and lore. It would make sense to have it looking different than the Elder Dragons or their champions, since it would cause people to think – more so if it ever gets a story tie in (Anet wants to explain more and more things into the lore… “town clothing” are now old fashion trends!) – that players are somehow harnessing power of the Elder Dragons.

But I did say a non-crystallized Glint. But that’s just going off of the general shape and color. Though Glint never looked crystalline tbh, even in the GW2 concept art.

She was crystalline-ish, but nowhere near the degree of the Shatterer. She’s more a case of what you’d expect it you took a classic heraldic dragon and turned its scales, horns, claws and the like to crystal, but didn’t change the overall structure.

On a possible connection between sylvari and demons – it’s an interesting analogy to make, but I think the distinction is that the sylvari have a physical body which was created through a biological reproduction process in Tyria, while demon bodies emerge spontaneously from miststuff. There’s certainly a connection between sylvari souls and the Mists, but I’m inclined to think that all souls are, to a greater or lesser extent, connected to the Mists – sylvari just retain a stronger connection to a specific part of it (if the theory is true).

In fact, a commonly held theory is that all souls are born from the Mists. The distinction is that some souls inhabit a physical body on Tyria or some other world early enough in their life that they don’t recall anything from beforehand. Others, for whatever reason (lack of bodies, perhaps) are not so lucky and are stuck with one of the imperfect copies made in the Mists.

Another possibility that leaves less disembodied souls around is that one of the properties of the Mists is that it responds to the presence of any suitable body by creating a soul for that body. Since, to a greater or lesser extent, the Mists touch every part of Tyria, this would mean that every body capable of housing a soul would be infused with one by the Mists.

Either way, the main distinction with sylvari is that the soul then goes into the Dream, albeit maintaining enough of a connection to the host body that they’re unlikely to be seperated.

drax, while we’re on the subject of connectedness to the Mists, I was wondering if there was any way that the Rage of Koda tied into your ideas?

Glint may be more like the ‘crystal’ dragons originally were (If the dragons had distinct types before Elder dragons came along).

Shatterer simply seems to be a construct of rock, earth, and crystal.

Or Kralkatorrik wanted to make his Lieutenant more like himself(the current art of Kralkatorrik looks alot like The Shatterer).

Dragons can have many Champions though it’s stated Kralkatorrik has only one Lieutenant at a time and they all look the same(all are Shatterers).

A Lieutenant may be the highest ranking of Dragon Champions.

I think the “Lieutenant, one at a time” thing made have been changed.

Because there are many claws of Jormag, and the dragons in Zhaitan’s service, yet both were called Lieutenants at one point IIRC.

Im pretty sure that comment was specifically in regards to the Shatterer, and not lieutenants in general.

Yeah. Because they mentioned Shatterer as Kralks Lieutenant, and there was one Shatterer at a time.

I’ve not heard it referred to as such for other dragons as far as I know.

Kralkatorrik seems to only want one Lieutenant among his Champions and he wants said Lieutenant to look like minature versions of him(as the artwork clearly shows).

Glint has crystal scales and was likely shaped by Kralkatorrik(out of what I don’t know).

Have any of you noticed that the Chaos Crystal Caverns have it’s crystals start off as purple then slowly degenerate to green? Could any of the Drakes be Branded?

Glint is obviously a real dragon and not a construct, you know, as the fact she laid eggs which hatched.

Possibly an Branded River Drake? She is a Dragon Champion?

“The Shatterer” is the lieutenant that guards the Dragonbrand. There’s only one Shatterer at a time, but not necessarily only one dragon lieutenant of Kralkatorrik’s at a time. This is a situation unique to the Shatterer and the Shatterer alone (as far as we know). Each of Zhaitan’s lieutenants got different names/titles, and as mentioned there’s multiple Claws of Jormag which implies shared titles amongst many at a single time.

@Mickey: Given Warden Ilyra’s line about Glint regaining free will, it seems highly likely she was some sort of sapient being before being corrupted.

Chaos Crystal Caverns seems unrelated to Kralkatorrik and the Dragonbrand – the kind of crystals in there are completely different than branded crystals. Though incidentally enough, the branded crystals do have a shared model object in the northwestern skritt caves of Dredgehaunt Cliffs.

@Kalavier: Considering those “eggs” were completely transparent, I wouldn’t go so fast to call them proper eggs. Because, you know, they were transparent – and we saw nothing inside…

@Mickey2: If she was a branded drake, I’d go Sand Drake – seems closer, lacking wings and all, and is closer to Glint’s overall known locations (Orr and Crystal Desert). Or an extinct species altogether – like dragons. ;P

Tamias.7059:

drax, while we’re on the subject of connectedness to the Mists, I was wondering if there was any way that the Rage of Koda tied into your ideas?

Nothing beyond what we’ve already been told, basically – the Voices spend more time in communion with the Mists than the religious castes of any of the other races, and this is stressful to their minds. There seems to be a correlation between the Rage and external stress, so its probable that a contributing factor is the Voice seeing all the worst possible outcomes in the Mists.

Well, one hatched into a baby dragon at the least… :P

“hatched” or “transformed” though. We see Branded Crystals spawning Branded but they weren’t eggs laid by a branded minion (given that branded humans come out and all that).

“Baby dragon” to me implies it was able to grow. a construct/branded style thing couldn’t as far as I can tell.

But if she ‘regained’ her free will, that likely means she was around before becoming a champion, and thus can’t have been ‘formed’ or made by Kralk in the same way the shatterer obviously is (the whole he explodes and have many floating parts in his wings :P)

If you want to stretch the meaning of demon to anything supernatural, then anything supernatural is a demon. Ta-da!

(In the original Greek, the word Daimon, was any lesser spirit (less than a god).

I think it’s a lot less confusing if we stick to the regular English usage of demon to refer to a malign creature of infernal origin. Sylvari don’t count, since they’re not malign. And I doubt dragons are of infernal origin.