Guild Wars 2

Wanderer.3248:

If you want to stretch the meaning of demon to anything supernatural, then anything supernatural is a demon. Ta-da!

(In the original Greek, the word Daimon, was any lesser spirit (less than a god).

I think it’s a lot less confusing if we stick to the regular English usage of demon to refer to a malign creature of infernal origin. Sylvari don’t count, since they’re not malign. And I doubt dragons are of infernal origin.

The issue is that there is no “infernal origin” – there is no hell in Tyria. Closest you get to your typical Fire and Brimstone (thus infernal) afterlife is the Fissure of Woe… which is a good place to go.

Demons come from the Mists in general, which can be anything in terms of landscape.

If the stated canon definition of demon is “born from the Mists” then that’s what a demon is, regardless of what Christianity or ancient Greece calls them.

“Realm of Torment” is the hell of Guild Wars, as far as I see it.

It’s the prison they sent Shiro to at the end of Factions… and one underworld quest IIRC mentioned a bunch of souls being unfairly sent to the realm of Torment while the reaper was stuck.

It’s the worst place we know of, but it’s not like all evil-doers go there. Chaos Plains within the Underworld is where some criminals are sent, for example. And there’s the un-described “realm of travail” that’s mentioned alongside the realm of torment in cursing someone by Cobiah Marriner.

My point remains that the closest place to an infernal afterlife is the Fissure of Woe. And it also stands to mention that demons are born in places other than the Realm of Torment – Spawning Pools in the Underworld is one such place (a birthplace of (some) dryders). Imps and Fleshreavers are said to come (at least partially) from the Underworld too.

Well, true.

My take was the Realm of torment was the WORST place to be sent to.

In GW1, it was where all things tied to Abaddon went, not necessarily the worse place. Even good people who – knowingly or not – were affected by Abaddon went there.

Course, one could easily point to Grenth and Kormir being busy sorting through all the souls there, since Abaddon is dead dead.

Still, I’d label it the worst place post Abaddon dying :P.

That depends. The Realm of Torment was essentially Abaddon’s realm twisted by his madness – while the references to the Redeemed Realm found by dataminers is not official canon, Kormir may well have transformed it by now. The thing is that with the gods having been silent pretty much since, the people of Tyria have no idea of whether the Realm of Torment is still as the stories of the GW1 heroes described it or whether it’s become a land of sunshine and rainbows.

It’s a bit like Cantha since Zhaitan’s rise – we know what it was like when we last received word, but we have no idea of how it may have changed afterwards.

However, I have recently heard about the one reaper quest (which would’ve existed before nightfall maybe? Unless they tweaked the text) which mentions souls unfairly sent to the Realm of Torment.

And then they(the Envoys) say they will take Shiro someplace he can’t escape/will be forced to pay for his crimes, and he appears in the Realm of torment.

I’m more inclined to believe it’s simply the worst part of the underworld to be sent to.

Course, we’ve heard nothing about if Lyssa, Melandru, or Dwayna have ‘their own realms’ or how they might be :O.

Being put in a place of pain and agony that is reserved for those dealing with a certain individual would easily count as “unfairly sent” or being a place that Shiro would wish it were his end. The Realm of Torment was a prison after all – one that tormented its prisoners.

As to other gods’ realms… we have heard of Eternal Paradise by Canthans – which to me sounds like something that Dwayna’s realm would be called, especially given the GW2 lore about Dwayna wanting to make Tyria a paradise.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If the stated canon definition of demon is “born from the Mists” then that’s what a demon is, regardless of what Christianity or ancient Greece calls them.

I think part of the issue is that the stated canon definition of demon is more than simply being born from the mists. They are mists creatures born of corrupted shards of reality in the mists. That means that not all mist creatures are demons. Razah, for instance is specifically stated to not be a demon.

Since the mists are the building blocks of reality, we just might find out that all creatures have their origins in the mists.

The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind. From NF manual on Razah.

Demonic != demon

It’s a matter of interpretation, I guess, but just not being demonic doesn’t mean you’re not a demon. Like the stories that focus on a “good demon from hell” or an “overzealously evil angel from heaven”.

And it’s already been stated, since Prophecies, that all creatures can trace themselves back to the Mists.

Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.

Well if you prefer to call them all demons, then do so. Changing their name won’t change anything. A more interesting question is whether dragons come from the mists, or have any connection to the mists.

Demonic means “of, relating to or suggesting of a demon”. if razah isn’t demonic then he really has nothing to do with demons at all. Much less being one.

There are no good demons from hell in GW. Demons are defined as corrupted shards of existence that have gained a malignant sentience. And that they share the same aspirations. To feast on suffering, despair, and the vital energy of intelligent creatures. the strong consume or dominate the weak, reveling in their feasts and victimization.

So if it is a creature of the mists who is not evil, it is not a demon. it is simply a creature of the mists. The demon page also says that demons are corrupted shards of reality in the mists. Without the corruption of that shard, it isn’t a demon. it is simply a mist creature.

if the stated canon definition is a corrupted and evil mist creature then a non evil mist creature isn’t a demon. It is simply a mist creature because there is no infernal place with which to define that all creatures from that place are demons.

There is no hell in GW. Demons are defined as “made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power.”. They are often born in what the Order of Whispers calls corrupted shards – such as that which formed the Dreadspawn Maw.

The thing about the corrupted shard of existence comes from this guy who states “Throughout the Mists there exist corrupted shards of existence where demons spawn.” But unless you’re going to claim the Spawning Pool a “corrupted shard of existence” which is even ruled as part of the main Underworld by a Reaper (one would think, given the malign nature of demons, Grenth and his Reapers would purge demons from the Underworld if they’re ‘corrupted’), then it’s clear that not all demons are born from these so-called “corrupted shards of existence”. And besides that, what exactly is the Order of Whispers’ checklist for what makes the shard of existence “corrupted” or not? Being evil? Being unnatural? Being twisted by another being? We don’t know – perhaps this is bias talking, hmm? Given how zealous the Whispers could be against demons in Nightfall, it wouldn’t be far fetched to believe they’d say all demons must come from corrupted parts of the Mists, and just to justify their actions.

Demons are “made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power.”

defined as …… malignant sentience

That means no “good demons”.

There is a lot of mental gymnastics you are doing to try and make it happen. Razah is confirmed “not demonic”. that means he is not a demon and not related to a demon. That means there are creatures of the mist that simply aren’t demons.

There’s a huge semantical debate around that, but I’ll have to leave it to interpretation. Because “not demonic” to me does not necessarily mean “not demon” – just “not like a standard demon”.

But here’s something for you to consider. Your prize example, Razah, was born from the Realm of Torment – specifically the Heart of Abaddon which is stated to be the deepest part of the Realm of Torment, where Abaddon was imprisoned while twisting the minds of all nearby (per the Abaddon’s Gate description and the gw.dat description of Heart of Abaddon).

Would this not count as “born from a corrupted shard of existence”?

We really hold no indication for how Razah would be if not for the players’ intervention – nor do we know what has become of Razah in the years since. Having “gained malignant sentience” may not have to be immediate, but then again you have the semantics of where such a description would end. Is total and complete apathy comparable to being malignant? Is being unfeeling, malignant?

Razah fits everything about a demon except his personality and, somewhat, his appearance.

I believe Dustfinger’s point is that the personality is literally half of what defines a demon (or one-third, depending on how you break down that sentence- the point still stands).

That said, we don’t actually have an official term for non-malignant mist creations, so for the time being demon is as good a word for them as any other.

That^.

Though there is no official term it does seem clear to me that demon is the wrong term. It seems pretty evident that there are non-demon mist beings. and equally evident that part of the qualification of being a demon is the drive to cause suffering and despair.

“Demonic” is an umbrella term that encompasses anything to do with a demon including being one. So “not demonic” can only mean Razah isn’t a demon. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demonic

Basing Razah’s “demon-ness” on where and how he is created without all the qualifiers (evil) is like basing a charrs “norn-ness” based on a charr being copulated in tyria.