Taimi: Anyway, I discovered why ley energy is different when run through him, and it’s paradigm-shifting!
Taimi: The chak feed off ley energy, right?
Taimi: And we know that each dragon has a “domain” when it comes to their magic; Zhaitan’s was death, obviously.
Taimi: Well you know what’s guaranteed to give chak a bad stomachache? Death magic!
Taimi: Spencer filters “death” out of ley energy!
<Character name>: So magic is almost like light. Broken up into a spectrum.
Taimi: That’s a perfect way to think about it!
Taimi: Magic as we know it is like white light, composed of all the different types of dragon magic.
However when crafting Astralaria, Cosmic Power is separated into
It seems magic in the ley-lines is different in some way from ED magic.
I believe that dragon magic/energy is a much more concentrated form of ley magic.
Thoughts?
My thought is that Taimi doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Because not only what you mention, but that it contradicts established lore in the personal story/dungeons.
She isn’t a know it all, despite her attitude (and the Commander’s).
Based on what we’re told in the personal story and dungeons, “dragon magic” or “draconic energy” is literally the corruptive form of magic. What the Inquest, Snaff, Zojja, Gorr, and many others call ‘dragon magic’ solely refers to the magic which corrupts anything it touches. Despite knowing that dragons release magic naturally when sleeping/dead.
You seem to be implying that elementals, sapient plants, and djinn are basically dragon magic. But they do not corrupt nor imbue their magic in others. They seem to be closer related to the ley-line anomalies – which similarly do not corrupt or imbue magic – which form from even higher concentrations of magic.
And there is nothing relating djinn to “the draconic-enchanto consumption theory” of Gorr’s. Djinn do not eat magic. You might be thinking of imps there – or rather, demons in general whom are known to eat magic or souls depending on the type of demon (imps eat elemental magic; torment demons eat souls).
My thought is that Taimi doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Because not only what you mention, but that it contradicts established lore in the personal story/dungeons.
She isn’t a know it all, despite her attitude (and the Commander’s).
Based on what we’re told in the personal story and dungeons, “dragon magic” or “draconic energy” is literally the corruptive form of magic. What the Inquest, Snaff, Zojja, Gorr, and many others call ‘dragon magic’ solely refers to the magic which corrupts anything it touches. Despite knowing that dragons release magic naturally when sleeping/dead.
You seem to be implying that elementals, sapient plants, and djinn are basically dragon magic. But they do not corrupt nor imbue their magic in others. They seem to be closer related to the ley-line anomalies – which similarly do not corrupt or imbue magic – which form from even higher concentrations of magic.
And there is nothing relating djinn to “the draconic-enchanto consumption theory” of Gorr’s. Djinn do not eat magic. You might be thinking of imps there – or rather, demons in general whom are known to eat magic or souls depending on the type of demon (imps eat elemental magic; torment demons eat souls).
1. What is the contradiction?
2. Compare that to our reality
Both of these are technically correct. However commonly “corruptive” and “magnetic” refer to noticeable phenomena.
In testing the DEC theory it was shown that the degrees of power and sentience are related to the amount of energy imbued in a minion.
I consider elementals to be corruptions produced by non-sentient forces. The Djinn, having received much more energy, behave like higher level minions/player races. Neither consumes magic because they aren’t commanded to.
Masterless corruptions by high doses of magic:
etc
I think we’ll need a proper explanation of how corruption works/is made of because we have contrasting theories: Dragon magic was presented as a completely different form of magic (Asuran PS), not a single spectrum of it.
How does corruption work? It radiates just fine from powerful minions alone or they act like amplifiers for the Elder Dragon? How is corruption “undone” (Pale Tree, Glint)?
If corruption is a stronger part of the spectrum, as spheres of influence, coudn’t Six Gods “corrupt” as well? How come corruption doesn’t work on/empower already corrupted individuals but can be used to empower when absorbed by the dragon, isn’t this the principle on which Gorr’s Vacuumagic Polarizer was supposed to work on Zhaitan?
I think until Anet gives us more information linking these answers together is pure guessing.
(edited by Shirou.4862)
1. What is the contradiction?
- draconic magic is the corruptive form of magic
- all magic is dragon magic
- therefore all magic is corruptive
Not all magic is corruptive, though.
While the logic seems sound, the solution is, in the end, false. Therefore, one of the two must be false.
We know A is true, and we know C is false, therefore B must also be false.
In testing the DEC theory it was shown that the degrees of power and sentience are related to the amount of energy imbued in a minion.
Not really. The testing of Gorr’s theory only pointed out that dragon minions naturally absorb ambient magic, and that they can grow/become stronger when they absorb a significant amount of magic.
The intelligence and power part was tested later, separate of that initial theory. It proved to be accurate, but this is only true in relation to dragon minions – other entities need not apply.
I consider elementals to be corruptions produced by non-sentient forces. The Djinn, having received much more energy, behave like higher level minions/player races. Neither consumes magic because they aren’t commanded to.
Your considerations are unfounded. This is your error: you’re making an assumption with no backing for it.
We’ve even been told in the past that elementals are simply, well, animated elements.
On the other hand, corruption is an irreversible transforming agent. It takes Material A and makes it Material B (the dragon’s first domain). Whether that Material A is flesh, plant, earth, water, air, or even fire.
However, elementals remain the same element that they were made from – fire elementals are made of fire, always; ice elementals are made from ice, always; air elementals are made from lightning/air, always. No exceptions.
But dragon minions can literally be made from anything, whether the subject of corruption is corpse, living, plant, land – any can be turned into risen, any can be turned into icebrood, etc. etc. Only souls have been shown to be naturally immune to dragon corruption, and even then that’s questionable (Eir mentions Jormag’s corruption alters the soul – Risen Wraiths could very well be corrupted souls, even though he only imprisoned or outright ignored many other; and only Foefire ghosts are outright stated to be immune to corruption – and only Kralkatorrik’s at that).
While djinn are compared to elementals, they are not the same thing. Djinn – unlike elementals – have souls. These souls are made of elemental energies, but they are souls all the same. And mindless constructs like elementals, necromancer minions, and dragon minions do not have souls.
Dragon minions are not necessarily commanded to consume magic either – Gorr’s testing proves that they absorb magic innately. This is one of the lore inconsistencies around sylvari – they do not absorb magic innately.
Masterless corruptions by high doses of magic:
- The bloodstone crazed individuals.
- The foefire.
- Demons (in this case high doses of ether)
All three cases are false evidences.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
@konig
How do you know all magic isn’t corruptive?
I understand the burden of proof with showing the absence of things.
However the reason I brought up magnetism is that for centuries leyman only thought metal and ferromagnets were magnetic.
Then we learned that everything is partially magnetic.
What if all magic is corruptive but in different concentrations?
This may be convergent evolution. But there is a strong tendency for magic to shape the mind, and in greater amounts give sentience. Demons were a stretch, but its the same idea, things coalesce into thinking.
What if Sylvari are not inconsistent lore-wise? What if they are not corrupted?
I think we both know that regardless of what we decide in this thread, Taimi will be right because the writers say so.
It is up to the lore community to find out how.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
It is always possible that Taimi is only partially right. That this new line of thinking leads her to the proper conclusions, but that the first conclusion was not 100% accurate. Like any scientific hypothesis, you must put it through testing. I mean, if all magic was Dragon magic, and death and plant magic cancel each other out, would they not cancel each other out when they meet in the open world? Then, we would not have a magic over abundance, because the magic could just all cancel itself out. There has to be more to magic, some sort of understanding dealing with perhaps the Dragon domains. Who knows. I doubt we’ll gain much info on it from this update, but perhaps the next.
As far as I’m aware, no one has ever demonstrated that spellcasters – whether dragon minions or not – don’t consume magic. Professor Gorr’s tests, after all, required him to approach Risen Abominations before he could obtain viable readings, suggesting that the magical signature of normal risen was little or no different to that of everyday spellcasters.
@konig
How do you know all magic isn’t corruptive?
Because we’ve seen huge amounts of magic used that doesn’t physically transform or mentally enslave individuals.
The Searing, The Cataclysm, Jade Wind, the battle of the gods that made the Crystal Desert, the ley anomalies, Thaumanova explosion.
None of those corrupt in anything even relatively close to the Elder Dragon’s corruption.
What if all magic is corruptive but in different concentrations?
The list above is a wide enough variety with high enough concentrations as to prove that such isn’t the case.
Unless you want to argue that a single case of an individual being turned into a dragon minion deals with more magic than the Searing itself, which is just ridiculous.
What if Sylvari are not inconsistent lore-wise? What if they are not corrupted?
They’re purified corruption – like Glint.
This is canon fact.
I think we both know that regardless of what we decide in this thread. Taimi will be right because the writers say so.
It is up to the lore community to find out how.
Doesn’t make things consistent. And no, it isn’t up to the lore community to “find out how” – it’s up to the writers to show us how. That’s a writer’s job, to create a believable world and story.
As far as I’m aware, no one has ever demonstrated that spellcasters – whether dragon minions or not – don’t consume magic. Professor Gorr’s tests, after all, required him to approach Risen Abominations before he could obtain viable readings, suggesting that the magical signature of normal risen was little or no different to that of everyday spellcasters.
Gorr actually points out that there is a decrease in magic around regular risen. But it wasn’t a big enough decrease to be able to say “the risen is the cause of it” without further evidence. In addition, there was a larger and, more importantly, undeniable decrease around larger/stronger risen (namely, the abomination).
Gorr gets readings from the edge of the swamp whilst the PC fights low-level minions and remarks that said levels aren’t strong enough to form a conclusion. This suggests that Gorr can pick up readings anywhere, regardless of the presence of minions, which is why I think that all beings can consume magic – it’s just that the consumption rate of higher-level dragon minions is greater than most other creatures.
Magic can neither be created nor destroyed. Why is it so hard to take the obvious analogy one step further and say that magic can transform?
Mists form Tyrian Leylines -> Dragons eat Leyline magic -> Dragon magic diffuses back into the Leylines over time, in the process becoming benign once again.
They’re all ultimately magic, just like all energy is ultimately still energy. The actual process for how Dragon magic becomes Leyline magic is pretty irrelevant, it’s fine for now to just understand that it does so over thousands of years.
If I took the speculation a step further, I’d say that the difference between Dragon magic and Leyline magic is that Dragon magic is actively “corruptive,” in the sense that its presence alone is enough to alter the landscape or beings exposed to it, either physically or mentally. Normal magic, if it is corruptive by this definition, is only corruptive in very specific instances (eg. sudden, forced infusion of a lot of magical energy causing someone to go insane or crave more of it).
@Konig
“Because we’ve seen huge amounts of magic used that doesn’t physically transform or mentally enslave individuals.”
I mean, just to play devil’s advocate, but you’re really going to ignore Bloodstone Fen? Massive concentration of magic, twisting individuals into beings that voraciously seek out and consume magic? They’re basically identical to Dragon minions in their behavior. And they’re corrupted by something decidedly not dragon magic.
(edited by Larynx.2453)
@konig “Because we’ve seen huge amounts of magic used that doesn’t physically transform or mentally enslave individuals.”
1. The Searing, The Cataclysm, Jade Wind, the battle of the gods that made the Crystal Desert,
2. the ley anomalies, Thaumanova explosion.
3. Captain grumpy
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
@Konig
“Because we’ve seen huge amounts of magic used that doesn’t physically transform or mentally enslave individuals.”
I mean, just to play devil’s advocate, but you’re really going to ignore Bloodstone Fen? Massive concentration of magic, twisting individuals into beings that voraciously seek out and consume magic? They’re basically identical to Dragon minions in their behavior. And they’re corrupted by something decidedly not dragon magic.
I didn’t ignore Bloodstone Fen. My first post explicitly talks about Bloodstone Fen and, more importantly, the fact that the Ring of Fire Bloodstone doesn’t have the same result on souls as proven by Captain Grumby.
Besides, one case of massive magic causing a change in mentality (but not physical form) does not mean all cases of massive magic causes corruption, which is a change in both mentality and physical form.
I’d say the fact that several cases of massive magic results in neither is more evidence the one or two cases of massive magic resulting in one or both.
@konig “Because we’ve seen huge amounts of magic used that doesn’t physically transform or mentally enslave individuals.”
- You are confusing concentration and size.
- Not all dragons can even enslave individuals
1. The Searing, The Cataclysm, Jade Wind, the battle of the gods that made the Crystal Desert,
- all of which are mist energy, Taimi linked Tyrian magic to Dragon magic.
- let’s go back to the magnetism analogy, concentration is important but so is composition. All matter is diamagnetic, only some is ferromagnetic.
- it doesn’t matter how concentrated or large mist energy is, it isn’t strongly corruptive, though I assume it can be induced into being so. That doesn’t stop it from being slightly corruption.
And what, exactly, is “Mist energy” for that matter? And how can you so easily say every major event that doesn’t match your explanation be this excluded, different form of energy?
And the Thaumanova explosion most certainly isn’t Mists related, but is a concentration of magic just like ley anomalies, and neither result in corruption.
2. the ley anomalies, Thaumanova explosion.
- how do we know that elementals don’t consume magic?
- do they not require magic to exist? Why else would they stay around sources of power?
Funny how your two points have nothing in relation to either ley anomalies or Thaumanova explosion.
Elementals require magic to form, but nothing indicates that they need magic to be sustained (exception being summoned elementals, probably because they’re given enough magic to be formed and not enough to be sustained as natural ones would be). If they needed to consume magic, then they couldn’t wander from sources of magic as we sometimes see happen.
3. Captain grumpy
- he became a ghost though right?
- aren’t only the living becoming crazed? And permanently. All the crazy ghosts I remember in bloodstone fen did not crave bloodstone and would act sane after being defeated.
Yes, The Ghost of Captain Grumby had become a ghost…
And no, as proven by the ghosts in Bloodstone Fen and Forsaken Thicket, the souls are also affected -if not even more affected – as the living are.
The crazy ghosts in Bloodstone Fen were drawn to the Bloodstone, as proven by the journals:
As anticipated, that brownnoser Phill was quick to take credit for my discovery regarding the spirits that are attracted to it, who can’t seem to leave it behind and pass on. Hard to imagine that anyone killed on the bloodstone could still be nearby, tethered for eternity to the bloodstone’s magic. The Chosen must’ve returned when they were freed at the Door of Komalie. What confusion or purpose would compel them to return to the place of their sacrifice? What binds them here? Bloodstone must be as much a drug for them as it is for the living. Their energy adds to the vortex of magic surrounding the bloodstone. Their deaths are a necessary sacrifice for the glory of the Unseen Ones, but a shame nevertheless.
The spirits of those killed on the stone are held within its energy field, unable to depart. In history, these souls were forced into auxiliary storage devices by our ancestors. But it was for the bloodstone’s magic that generations fought wars to determine who would control it. Even the Chosen could not stay away. once freed from their prison at the Door of Komalie, many seem to have returned. They’ve been seen haunting near the bloodstone.
I hate to prod, but Daniel seems to state that the Searing was an act of Mists magic and not Tyrian magic, but isn’t it widely believed that the magic from the Searing was caused by Elder Dragon magic, specifically Kralkatorrik’s? This article seems to suggest it, though I do not know the exact source.
That is a large theory, yes. The fact they’re purple in GW2 (were blue in GW1), the Searing Effigy especially being of purple flame and purple crystal, and in Blast from the Past it’s stated that the Flame Shamans enchanted the cauldrons. That line you refer to, though, comes from The Ecology of the Charr.
Thank you. I could of sworn it was from an official source, but I could not find it on any of the wikis. I would say that whether or not it came directly from Kralkatorrik, there is a pretty strong chance that it was Tyrian magic, not some magic channeled from the Mists.
@ konig
1. Can Primordius enslave individuals? Can Mordremoth (for non plants)?
2. Cosmic power
3. Ghosts and the bloodstone
Gorr gets readings from the edge of the swamp whilst the PC fights low-level minions and remarks that said levels aren’t strong enough to form a conclusion. This suggests that Gorr can pick up readings anywhere, regardless of the presence of minions, which is why I think that all beings can consume magic – it’s just that the consumption rate of higher-level dragon minions is greater than most other creatures.
4. If magic is like light
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
1. Can Primordius enslave individuals? Can Mordremoth (for non plants)?
- each dragons has limitations as to what they can corrupt.
- what if ley and thaumanova corruption is limited to elementals and anomalies?
Yes, Primordus can. We also see Mordremoth corrupt non plants. Twice.
Despite common belief, all Elder Dragons can corrupt the same things, however they have a specific “preference” on what and how they corrupt. Whether this “preference” is because it is easier for them given their sphere of power, or because of their personalities and personal goals/beliefs, remains unknown. But we do know that Zhaitan, Jormag, Kralkatorrik, Primordus, and Mordremoth can all corrupt living animals, dead animals, plants, land, air, and water.
Both the Ley Anomaly’s and Thaumanova’s explosion are pretty much beyond the amount of damage and magic as the simpler dragon corruption. To say they are “limited to” elementals and anomalies is to argue that corruption can occur without altering the physical shape or the mind, which is 100% not true in the case of dragon corruption as both is exactly and solely what dragon corruption is.
Simply put, elementals and anomalies are not corruption, because it does not change the material nor alter the mentality (or create a mentality in the case of corrupting inanimate objects into animate minions for dragon corruption). All elementals are, are animated, mindless elements. No different than an undead – which despite Tyrians (falsely) calling risen undead is not corruption.
2. Cosmic power
- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cosmic_Power
- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy_of_the_Mists
- if the Jade Wind is classed as mist energy, and it was a release of divine power, then the cataclysm/searing probably were too.
Unlike the Jade Wind’s magical origins, which is outright stated to be energies granted by Dwayna that got twisted, The Searing is – as stated in previous posts – heavily implied to be of Elder Dragon origin, and the Cataclysm’s origins are unknown. There is no reason to believe either is a result of divine power.
Furthermore, “all magic” would include divine magic. So by saying divine magic is exempt from this rule, then the rule is false.
3. Ghosts and the bloodstone
- the analogy to a drug is not dissimilar to corruption
- the Mordrem Vines die when the magic of Mordremoth leaves them
- the bloodstone crazed will die without consuming magic
- perhaps this is why the sylvari cannot completely sever their connection to the Dream.
- more research is required. Especially concerning Stephen point which I will replay to confirm.
Actually, it is dissimilar, because unlike a drug, corruption changes the physical matter to another form. Flesh gets turned to ice, crystal, fire, rock, or plant; plant gets turned to flesh or crystal. Etc.
The analogy to a drug is just done in relation to how junkie needs the drug to survive else they risk withdrawal that could potentially kill them if the addiction is too strong.
The “magic of Mordremoth” never left the vines. Mordremoth’s mind left them. Elder Dragon corruption of landscape – which is what those large vines are – are without sentience let alone sapience; their “living” state was caused solely by Mordremoth’s widespread telepathy allowing him to communicate, control, or even inhabit (as we see with Trahearne) his corruption and minions.
The Dream has no connection to dragon corruption as best as we can tell, beyond being what protects the sylvari from dragon corruption.
I notice you completely ignore, once more, the existence of Captain Grumby, who was killed atop of and by extension was within the Ring of Fire Bloodstone but remains fully sane, and the journals which state those killed and by extension were within the Maguuma Bloodstone are now crazed and drawn to the bloodstone.
4. If magic is like light
- rather than magnetism let’s use the analogy Taimi herself made.
- magic is almost like light.
- a extremely intense beam of light will not melt your flesh like a mild intensity of microwaves.
- all light is radiation
- it’s possible for all magic to be corruptive, but dragon energy is so corruptive it’s much more noticeable.
People take the “magic is like light” analogy Taimi made too seriously.
She only made that correlation regarding being divided into spectrums – something that, in all honesty, we knew for a long, long time. We just don’t know the exact details of the division.
@ konig
1. Grumby
2. “Primordus can affect the living.”
3. Cataclysm
4. The Searing
5. What do you think Taimi meant?
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
in my mind dragons have always represented chaos aka entropy. it stands to reason that there is a bit of chaos in everything in this imperfect world, as it also stands to reason that despite of this fact not all forces serve chaos.
the fact that we know where the evil aka chaos comes from is a bit of a 180 from other sources of pop culture topics dealing with this issue, mainly star wars. the fact that we don’t know where “good” magic comes from doesn’t mean it isn’t there, just that it hasn’t been revealed yet.
I’m guessing that this good magic is a representation of mother nature, the spirit of the planet. in short we should all become hippies and stop consuming things we don’t need.
- a extremely intense beam of light will not melt your flesh like a mild intensity of microwaves.
This… isn’t really true. You’re probably thinking of microwave ovens and the like, but if you had a similar concentration of energy of visible light, it would do a number on you as well (think of lighting fires with a magnifying glass).
I’ve previously divided Tyrian magic into three categories: dragon magic, ambient (or leyline) magic, and bloodstone magic. I stand by these characterisations: dragon magic has corruptive properties that the other two magic types do not (I’ll explain this in more detail later), while bloodstone magic has the property that magic from one bloodstone is difficult to combine with magic from another.
However, these forms of magic are interchangeable. Elder Dragons can consume magic of the other two kinds and convert it into dragon magic… and then it is released again as ambient magic as the dragon sleeps. Likewise, bloodstones convert magic that they absorb, and the magic that they release seems to eventually become ambient magic of the appropriate type… and it’s entirely likely that prior to the splitting of the original bloodstone, bloodstone magic was the same as ambient magic, with the bloodstone simply acting as a battery.
So in terms of the fantasy physics behind the properties we see, the three forms of magic probably aren’t actually all that different.
With regards to dragon magic – while we see in Bloodstone Fen that high enough quantities of magic are addictive, I don’t think this is the same as dragon corruption. The addictive properties of ambient and bloodstone magic seem to require exposure to really high concentrations of magic: we’ve only seen it in proximity to an exploding bloodstone (a cataclysm that, from what NPCs have said, would have made the Jade Wind, Searing, and Cataclysm look like squibs if Lazarus hadn’t sucked it back in) or in individuals who have directly interacted with bloodstone such as by implanting it into their flesh. Dragon magic, on the other hand, is corruptive at quite low concentrations – we see, in the Personal Story, examples of NPCs being corrupted by items that seem to be rather minor in terms of the magic that they carry.
So, what is the difference between dragon magic and ambient magic?
I think there’s a hint in that the Elder Dragons release ambient magic when they’re sleeping. This implies that ‘dragon magic’ is something that only happens due to some active manipulation by the dragon or a champion, which is not present when the Elder Dragon is quiescent. So, dragon magic is the same basic energy as ambient magic, but the dragon has done something to it to make it highly corruptive and to enslave those who come into contact with it to the dragon’s will.
(5000 charrs)
To draw an (imperfect) analogy here, let’s look at radio communication. A basic radio emission at a given frequency will be received by a typical radio as a simple tone – you can use it to communicate by stopping and starting the signal (the general principle behind Morse code and the like) but that’s about it. However, you can encode a signal into a continuous transmission by modulating the signal, varying its frequency or amplitude (which is where the terms FM and AM come from) so that additional information is carried by the transmission.
I suspect dragon magic operates under a similar principle. Fundamentally, it’s the same as other forms of magic on a similar level of the spectrum. However, while ambient magic is typically a blank slate, the Elder Dragons have encoded their own signal into it that gives the magic additional properties, including the corruptive nature. I don’t expect that it’s exactly analogous to the modulated radio signal analogy, but essentially the Elder Dragons have put an enchantment on their magic that stamps it as theirs and leads to it trying to transform those who come into contact with it into minions. A mortal can interact with fairly high concentrations of regular magic reasonably safely (we glide on ley lines, for instance) since it’s a blank slate – however, doing so with dragon-corrupted magic exposes the mortal to the “signal” mixed into the magic by the dragon, which then attempts to corrupt the mortal. Similarly, after the splitting of the Bloodstones, bloodstone magic appears to have carried with it an enchantment, or signal, that prevents the use of magic from multiple bloodstones simultaneously.
So it’s the same basic energy, but modified in a way that gives it additional properties that magic in a “clean” form does not have. It’s possible that the destructive interference between opposing forms of dragon magic (which does not appear to be seen in ambient magic) is a side effect.
It’s possible, maybe even likely, that Mists energy is similarly the same basic energy as Tyrian magic, but the different origins of the two forms of magic place a different ‘stamp’ on each, such that in practice Mists energy has different properties to Tyrian magic.
@drax not exactly. Actually I might have had the analogy backwards. Since microwaves are low frequency, equal amounts visible light would have more energy.
Also know one is debating the types of magic. We are debating what type of transformation these are.
I believe it’s structural
One of the theories is pseudo chemical
The problem I have with that is that magic is described as an energy
I may not have gotten all the viewpoints down. I revisit this thread after the living story.
I cant understand your reasoning. not all magic is corruptive, therefore not all magic is dragon magic, unless there are some benevolent dragons out there.
@drax not exactly. Actually I might have had the analogy backwards. Since microwaves are low frequency, equal amounts visible light would have more energy.
Correct.
Also know one is debating the types of magic. We are debating what type of transformation these are.
I believe it’s structural
- If all magic is dragon magic then all magical forms must be phases rather than conversions.
- and all magic would be corruptive
- my assumption is that like diamagnetic matter most magic would be very weak sources of corruption
- however some magic would naturally do it better than others
One of the theories is pseudo chemical
- there are different types of magic and they have distinct compositions
The problem I have with that is that magic is described as an energy
- how do dragons change the composition of energy?
I may not have gotten all the viewpoints down. I revisit this thread after the living story.
Well, there’s still not a lot of information about what magic IS.
There’s the analogy comparing it to the spectrum of light… however, as discussed above, with light certain parts of the spectrum are inherently more energetic than others. Here, the “frequency” doesn’t seem to have have any relationship with energy: there’s no evidence to suggest that mesmer magic is inherently more powerful than necromancy or vice versa, for instance. It’s possible that such relationships do exist, but it seems that the “spectrum” of magic is more about having different energies than different properties.
(Of course, the different frequencies of light do have different properties, but that is purely based on how the energy of the photons influences how it interacts with matter: the changes in the properties of magic seem to go deeper than that).
Non-dragon forms of magic appear to have the capability to addict people and drive them insane in extremely large concentrations. However, this is not the same as dragon corruption. Dragon corruption instills absolute loyalty to the dragon over all other loyalties: apart from this, sapient dragon minions actually behave in a fairly rational manner.
(It’s worth noting that the Elder Dragons themselves possibly have magic addiction, but the main drive of their minions is to serve the dragon. They collect magic in order to provide it to their dragon, not because they’re addicted themselves).
According to Taimi’s theories, dragon magic has the same spectrum as other magic, and appears to have all of the same properties as ambient magic. However, dragon magic has an additional property, that it corrupts those who come into contact with it and twists them into dragon minions. Regular magic does not do this: as noted above, magic addiction and minionhood result in different behaviours and are not equivalent.
So, dragon magic seems to be basically the same as normal magic, except with something extra.
Which is why I brought up the analogy of modulated radio waves. A modulated radio wave has all the properties of an unmodulated wave of the same frequency… but thanks to the modulation, it has an extra property on top. The dragons appear to have done something similar with the magic they’ve claimed: it has some extra property that makes it corruptive.
However, to reiterate: magic addiction as seen in Bloodstone Fen and minionhood do not appear to be the same.
1. Grumby
-snip quotes-
- was the ring of fire bloodstone ever unstable to the point of magical vortex?
- Grumby tells us the souls of the RoF stone are also bound yet as you say he is sane. He doesn’t appear to crave its magic like those of the Fen stone.
- perhaps we are witnessing two phenomena
- ghosts are bound to bloodstones they are slain on
- leaking magic corrupts the mind
I don’t think that the “magical vortex” is a literal thing, but more metaphorical to the fact that the Bloodstones grow with more magic, are effectively absorbing magic, and souls are magic.
In other words, this “magical vortext” isn’t because of any instability. Which would mean that yes, the Ring of Fire Bloodstone would have such as well.
Nowhere does Grumby tell us about other sacrifices on the RoF Bloodstone (he says “for” not “on” the bloodstone), and he never once mentions bound souls.
If leaking magic corrupted the minds of those nearby, then the White Mantle would have been corrupted for hundreds of years. Our GW1 characters would have become addicted.
2. “Primordus can affect the living.”
-snip quotes-
- what I take from this is that physical transformation is variable
- perhaps ley magic has the easiest time with pure elements
- either way proximity and exposure is important
- Primordius and Mordremoth encase things first when corrupting non preferential substances
- jumping into zommoros house will turn you temporarily into an anomaly
- perhaps the skin is being covered in ley energy for the same procedure
“physical transformation is variable” is obvious. Every Elder Dragon’s corruption happens and appears differently. But what is pointblank said there is that even Primordus can corrupt the living.
Basically, every Elder Dragon can corrupt the same materials, but they corrupt those same materials in different ways, and they become different things.
Mordremoth doesn’t encase things when corrupting. He tosses corpses and living beings into Blighting Trees to preserve them, not to corrupt them, so that he can then make copies of their non-degraded form.
As for ley magic: It doesn’t corrupt “pure elements” and we have a hell of a lot of proximity and exposure with failed ley anomalies.
What happens in the Mystic Forge is still an unknown, but it is very clearly different from the permanent and irreversible effects of dragon corruption – we know this because the anomaly form is only while within the Mystic Forge.
3. Cataclysm
-snip quote-
- orr was lost beneath the sea when Abbadon was still overseeing water.
- either way elementals are no less intelligent than destroyers
What does Abaddon’s title and supposed domain over water have to do with the Cataclysm? The Cataclysm had nothing related to water. Yes, it sunk beneath the waves… but it sunk in general. If anything, that’s earth related.
But if you watch the cinematic featuring the Cataclysm during Victory or Death, what we see is a light blue light (er… bright blue light?) appearing as buildings literally sink straight down. This bright blue light is very much the same as the bright blue light seen in the center of Thaumanova – the same shade as the magic traveling along ley lines at the end of Season 1 and at the end of Heart of Thorns.
Which gives a very heavy hint that the Cataclysm was affecting ley energy.
-5000 body length-
4. The Searing
-snip quote-
- its possible the searring was powered by kralkatorrik.
- he is believed to be a dragon of crystal and possibly air, and crystals falling from the sky seems like him.
- you have also implied corruption should affect more than preferences, but the people weren’t changed by the searing.
- so was dragon magic used in the searing if only specific things were changed?
- i see this as further proof. Something the devs imply to be dragon magic not corrupting according to our expectations.
Not all magic within the Elder Dragons corrupt. We know this by the fact that they release magic while hibernating or dead.
As I said in my first post, “dragon magic” by every other individual is a reference to the corrupting magic actively exuded by the Elder Dragons.
It does not refer to the non-corrupting magic passively exuded by the Elder Dragons.
Given that Kralkatorrik was asleep in 870 AE, when the Cauldron was given to the Flame Legion and when the Flame Legion later enchanted the other Searing Cauldrons, it would be obvious that while the cauldrons were empowered by the crystal domain that is Kralkatorrik’s domain, it was not empowered by the actively exuded “dragon magic” (aka the corrupting magic) of Kralkatorrik.
In short: this is not further proof of your argument, which is “all magic is dragon magic” followed by “all cases of heavy magic that are not mists magic results in corruption” but rather is direct proof against the latter claim – as we have a case of heavy magic tied to an Elder Dragon (ergo, not mists magic) which does not corrupt.
Seems like you’re forgetting your own argument…
5. What do you think Taimi meant?
I literally stated what she meant. Magic is divided into spectrums – or domains, spheres, w/e you want to call them – in a similar way that light is divided into spectrums (or colors even). This is something we’ve known since forever.
She did not mean that light and magic are divided the same way, or that they function the same way (which you claimed).
@ konig
1. Grumby
2. Cataclysm
3. The searing and nomenclature
@ drax
We don’t know a lot about magic, except we know that it is an energy.
Every single term and analogy in this discussion has been in physical terms:
No one has conceptualized a change in composition.
Are we saying that corruption is a entirely new particle?
Because if not we have to acknowledge that any physical shift from mist to ley to dragon to whatever is a not a change in form but in structure.
And you cannot gain a property that is not shared in part by the other phases.
All magic is dragon magic, just as all magic is ley magic, just as all magic is mist magic.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
1. Grumby
That doesn’t say they were sacrificed on the bloodstone. He could be referring to the White Mantle we killed, or the dwarves that were part of the assault who died.
2. Cataclysm
-snip-
- previously you believed that the cataclysm was Abaddon magic in part because of where the souls ended up.
I never, ever claimed such.
The souls ended up in the Realm of Torment because of Abaddon’s manipulation. It has nothing to do with the origin of magic. Any individual who was “touched by Abaddon” as they said (which basically means ever, at any point, encountered Abaddon’s agents whether they knew it or not) were sent to the Realm of Torment.
3. The searing and nomenclature
- I don’t disagree they actively and passively extrude magic.
- the problem with the term dragon magic.
- Kralkatorrik passively exudes ley magic of a particular domain
- you are saying the cauldrons were powered by a dragon’s magic but not dragon magic.
Like I’ve stated, explicitly, the terminology “dragon magic” or “draconic energy” is only ever used in the game in reference to the corrupting magic actively exuded by Elder Dragons and their minions.
The sole exception to this is Taimi and her new “theories”.
One way to look at it (though I’d say it oversimplifies) is this: Elder Dragons take ley energy and turn it into draconic energy or they can release it as ley energy again.
This was what everyone but Taimi is effectively telling us, when we combine all the notes.
We also know that ley energy is, effectively, the culmination of multiple “spectrums” of magic – we’ve known that magic has multiple “domains” or “spectrums” from the beginning, it’s just that we’ve not known the exact division of it.
The Searing, by all indication, was empowered by ley energy within Kralkatorrik. Similarly, the Six Gods took ley energy within Zhaitan to empower the Bloodstones.
The theory that Taimi presents which isn’t contradictory is that each Elder Dragon only absorbs certain “domains” of ley energy magic. Which would mean that the Searing was empowered by “crystal and sky ley energy” rather than “crystal and sky dragon magic”.
What is known not to be the case is that ley energy corrupts. If magic is corruptive, it is draconic energy, by all indications of what we know.
In other words – another oversimplification explanation is thus: “All draconic energy is ley energy ,but not all ley energy is draconic energy.” Which is where Taimi falls short (and you as well): she thinks because all of one (draconic) is always another (ley), that the reverse must be true, but that isn’t the case.
By all indication, draconic energy is merely a warping of ley energy.
Now, the reaction of individuals with the Maguuma Bloodstone is currently a mystery – it could be a nature of the magic sealed within that particular bloodstone, or it could be a nature of bloodstones in general. We’re not sure, as we only have one example of a non-Maguuma Bloodstone’s influence on an individual (Grumby). There is always the possibility of an outlier. But as it stands, there is no indication that the other four bloodstones would have the same effect on individuals as the Maguuma Bloodstone.
On top of this, besides draconic energy the Maguuma Bloodstone is the sole example of corruption by magic. And this is the critical point. This means that not all magic is corruptive – because we’ve seen magic in greater concentrations than both dragon corruption and the Maguuma Bloodstone without any corruptive effects.
Of course, this is all based on current data. Future data (be it in the forms of retcons like Taimi’s so-called theories, or in the forms of proper tying and expanding of lore like Caudecus’ manipulations) may change this.
@ drax
We don’t know a lot about magic, except we know that it is an energy.Every single term and analogy in this discussion has been in physical terms:
- magnetism, light, radios
- concentration, frequency, wavelength
- etc
These are analogies. All we know about magic is based on its observed properties: as far as we know there has been no Tyrian equivalent of Maxwell who’s figured out what magic actually is.
No one has conceptualized a change in composition.
To continue the analogy, it’s possible for a change in structure to result in a change in apparent properties.
Polarised light appears to interact with certain forms of matter in a different way to unpolarised light. An amplitude-modulated radio transmission is interpreted by crystal radio as voice, when an unmodulated transmission wouldn’t be. It’s still all photons, but the way they are arranged influences how they interact with matter. However, we wouldn’t say that all electromagnetic radiation is polarised and/or modulated just because some is.
Dragon magic has a property that regular magic does not, in that it corrupts. Bloodstone madness requires much higher concentrations of magic, and does not result in the same effects as dragon corruption. Therefore, it has a property that other magic does not.
We don’t know if this is the result of a difference in composition, a difference in structure, or some other change that isn’t covered in our analogies. However, it has a property that other forms of magic does not, and therefore it is improper to say that other forms of magic that do not have this property is the same as dragon magic.
The distinction might be as small as the distinction between modulated and unmodulated radio transmissions, which influences the way it interacts with creatures and objects. However, the distinction is clearly there, and it is improper to claim that all magic is dragon magic when it is clear that not all magic has the properties associated with dragon magic.
And you cannot gain a property that is not shared in part by the other phases.
All magic is dragon magic, just as all magic is ley magic, just as all magic is mist magic.
if youre making the argument that different types of magic exist everywhere to a minute degree then I can agree to that.
I cant agree to all magic is dragon magic. that’s like saying because entropy exists everywhere all is chaos, which is clearly false. it matters what magic is dominant.
@konig
Well that depends on the events of the thaumanova reactor.
Inquest Technician (2): Great. Studying chaos magic wasn’t enough. Oh no. Scarlet has to harness it and amplify it and agitate it.
Inquest Technician (1): Leave it to a sylvari to foul up machinery. She doesn’t even recognize chaos magic. Says it’s something else entirely.
Inquest Technician (2): Come on. Let’s get out of here. Whatever that energy is, I’ve had enough.
Scarlet Briar: I told the Inquest chaos energy was a misnomer. Mind you, dragon energy is tricky, so I can see how they flubbed it.
Scarlet Briar: At least they helped identify the network of magical channels that crisscross the globe. That was a breakthrough.
You wrote;
Taimi is not the sole exception.
Regardless after playing the recent story I realize that future data, and most likely more Taimi retcons are coming.
This discussion is not as pressing until after Taimi has entered omadds machine.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
And you cannot gain a property that is not shared in part by the other phases.
All magic is dragon magic, just as all magic is ley magic, just as all magic is mist magic.
if youre making the argument that different types of magic exist everywhere to a minute degree then I can agree to that.
I cant agree to all magic is dragon magic. that’s like saying because entropy exists everywhere all is chaos, which is clearly false. it matters what magic is dominant.
No. I am saying that magic is an energy, and all physical process work along a continuum.
@ drax
“Polarised light appears to interact with certain forms of matter in a different way to unpolarised light. An amplitude-modulated radio transmission is interpreted by crystal radio as voice, when an unmodulated transmission wouldn’t be.”
Your examples do not support the idea of discrete states.
Partial polarization exists and would at different intensities produce the same result. And an unmodulated transmission that occurred at that frequency or amplitude would still be picked up as noise, that’s partially how they did morse code.
If dragon magic was analogous to the former, extremely intense ley magic would still be corruptive, but probably not as much as moderately intense dragon magic that was completely polarized.
If dragon magic was analogous to the later, extremely intense ley magic would partially corrupt, and certain natural phenomena may completely corrupt.
Perhaps rather than saying all magic is dragon magic it is more appropriate to say there is ley magic, dragon ley magic, dragon magic, ley mist magic, ley mist dragon, dragon mist, and whatever other things we haven’t discovered.
All processes by definition have half-way points. They may not be fully stable in them. But they have to exist.
There has to be more variations that we assume.
@daniel
do you think non corruptive dragon magic exists? in the gw2 universe I mean.
after I typed the question I started digging around and found this:
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Albax
so if dragon corruption could be an abnormal state, what may be causing it?
THE PLOT THICKENS
also glint is an interesting phenomenon. how I would love to have a nice q&a with her.
(edited by Stand The Wall.6987)
@ drax
“Polarised light appears to interact with certain forms of matter in a different way to unpolarised light. An amplitude-modulated radio transmission is interpreted by crystal radio as voice, when an unmodulated transmission wouldn’t be.”Your examples do not support the idea of discrete states.
Partial polarization exists and would at different intensities produce the same result. And an unmodulated transmission that occurred at that frequency or amplitude would still be picked up as noise, that’s partially how they did morse code.
You’re still extending the analogy too far – just because we’re using light-based analogies doesn’t mean that magic is anything like light except in that it has a kind of “spectrum”.
However, let’s consider the modulated signal analogy. Yes, an unmodulated radio transmission still gets picked up, but it carries less information than a transmission that is modulated in a particular way (and even absolute on-off-on-off techniques such as Morse code could be seen as a kind of extreme amplitude modulation for encoding information into a radio or other electromagnetic transmission).
We can transfer computer code in this way. That includes viruses, which can infect a computer and cause it to do things that it shouldn’t. However, we wouldn’t say that all electromagnetic radiation is infected just because electromagnetic radiation can be used to transmit a virus.
Dragon corruption can be thought of as a virus, which is carried by magical energy and is able to infect pretty much anything. When it infects a sentient creature, dragon corruption rewrites the loyalties and motivations of the creature, so that the creature’s overriding loyalty and motivation is to serving the dragon. The infection also brings about physical changes, the nature of which depends on the dragon and possibly also on the type of magic. There is no ‘halfway point’ such as you describe – a particular “packet” of magical energy is either carrying the dragon corruption virus or it isn’t. Under this model, we call magic that carries the virus ‘dragon magic’, which is distinct from magic that does not carry the virus.
Other forms of magic might have different ‘code’. For instance, the exclusivity effect of bloodstone magic could be because the magic from each bloodstone carries ‘code’ that identifies the bloodstone it came from and prevents anyone from simultaneously using magic carrying the identifier of a different bloodstone. Magic drawn from revenant legends through the Mists might form a carrier wave through which the legend can communicate with the revenant, while also coming ‘pre-programmed’ so that the revenant can just activate the spells offered by the legend rather than having to shape the magic into a specific effect themselves as a more conventional spellcaster might have to.
As I’ve stressed a few times, we don’t know what the actual structure and composition of magic is. One of these analogies may be on the mark, or it may be something else we haven’t thought of. All we know is its observed properties.
And from those observed properties, we know that ‘dragon magic’ is inherently corruptive even in small amounts. Other forms of magic are not corruptive in the same way as dragon corruption even in large amounts (again, I stress that the symptoms of bloodstone madness are easily differentiated from those of dragon corruption). From observed properties, there is a distinction.
It may be that the distinction is as small as between an electromagnetic transmission that carries a computer virus and one that doesn’t, but that distinction is there, and it results in noticeably different properties of dragon magic compared to other forms of magic.
@Drax
I am not trying to a priori see the eternal alchemy. But we know enough about magic to talk about it in the abstract. The analogies are just metaphysical guesswork to see if Taimi’s statement could make sense.
For instance, even though no one knows the composition we could decide that the ley>dragon conversion wasn’t based on concentration because of the variance in high-magic events.
Now several analogies and arguments in this thread are distinctions in nomenclature:
1: All p resembles x
2: q does not resemble x
3: therefore q is not p
This is valid, but is not sound. The first statement is false, and this affects the conclusion.
We could say that the “virus” in inactive in Sylvari, but it defeats the usefulness of the definition. Perhaps everything could contain the inactive form. This is not to argue from analogy, rather that the analogy doesn’t work. There are halfway points even for computer viruses.
I understand what you are trying to say. There are specific distinctions between types of magic that can be used categorically.
What I am currently thinking, and what Taimi may be as well, is that our distinctions are superficial in some way.
For instance there are several different types of ice. They have different names, and that’s fine. But it’s the same substance.
@stand the wall
I do not think dragon corruption is an abnormal state, The All showed us the dragons were linked to the balance of the planet. Can something essential be wrong? Radiation warps matter, but it isn’t abnormal.
We know non-corruptive dragon magic exists because that is what Sylvari and Mawdrey are.
The thing you linked was corrupted by mist magic. We don’t know whether mist magic is just ley magic from domains not found on Tyria, or if there is a larger difference.
Regardless because it uses the word “corrupted” this is useful lore for understanding the terminology.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
dragon corruption being abnormal is a stretch I admit, although its very possible for it to work. perhaps the dragons were meant to only restore magic levels through benign siphoning. if I had to point a finger for sake of argument, it would be at the mursaat. cant trust those floaty freaks. anyway I don’t mean to derail the thread or anything.
They may all be phases of the same basic substance/energy, with subtle differences that lead to different properties but still the same basic stuff. We call that substance/energy ‘magic’.
Saying that “all magic is dragon magic” is, to draw on your new analogy, like saying that all water is Ice VII. It is demonstrably false, as not all magic has the properties of dragon magic.
@stand the wall
You could be right. It would make some sense. The Mursaat can avoid the Elder Dragons by phasing out of Tyria. This seems to be unique to them. Perhaps in their greed they used the dragons to routinely wipe out the other races so Tyria would only belong to them.
However we need more info.
@drax
I understand your argument, and I respect the necessity for nomenclature.
However I do think something is wrong with our operational definition.
For instance:
Here is one way to resolve the terminology of Scarlet and Taimi.
We discussed before not knowing the composition of magic, but I actually think we know more than previously discussed.
There are observable elements of fenmagic (the magic of the bloodstone fen bloodstone).
My first assumption is that this is the Denial stone.
My second assumption is that the magic is nearly entirely chaos magic due to how the bloodstones were divided.
There are some unusual occurrences. Certain areas of unstable fen magic have shifted.
They follow the formula “This magic is unstable and has materialized in the form of a ____”
Now, I recognize that these floating magenta/pink circles do not outwardly resemble their associated phenomena. It is plausible they are denial magic acting like bits of induced reality, especially because mesmers are fully capable of mimicing magic from other professions.
What is noticeable is the divisions they naturally undergo
All of them explicit or implied domains of the Elder Dragons. It might appear as if the water domain is missing but if you examine the glider skills it’s possible to stabilize the chaos magic into a water field. Moreover one can focus it into a key line.
Perhaps chaos magic actually is a mixture of all or most of the dragon domains. And is itself an erratic form of ley-magic.
The Margonites share all of the properties of dragon magic except the hive mind, which given the Sylvari is not a necessary aspect. And we know they are etheric, the same substance as mesmer/chaos magic.
Perhaps corruption is simply unstable chaos magic changing reality into one of the dragon domains.
All water is not ice. But all water contains radioactive particles in stable configuration.
Given how none of the dragon domains, including death magic, fully match up with a school or type within, perhaps each school, and mortal magic, are stable configurations of dragon magic.
For instance ice, water, fire, sky, crystal could be the basis of elemental magic.
The magic of the thaumanova reactor behaved like the fen areas. This time converting a little more before burning out.
Perhaps dragons domain when properly separated have a significantly longer half life.
That’s all I can think of for now. I may add to or clarify this later.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
Well that depends on the events of the thaumanova reactor.
-snip quotes-
You forget two more quotes which are even more important:
Ellen Kiel: "Just the basics: the facility was intended to study chaos magic, but the Inquest and their so-called “specialist,” Scarlet, pushed things in dangerous new directions."
PC: How so?
Ellen Kiel: “They claimed there was a link between the Thaumanova’s chaos energy and Elder Dragon energy. They ramped things up past the point of safe operation, and the reactor melted down.”
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Captain_Ellen_Kiel/dialogue#After_5
Scarlet is the only one who claims that the two (chaos magic and draconic energy) were the same there. However, Scarlet is a pathologic liar and, furthermore, research after it – which includes Scarlet’s claims – show that it was, indeed, a mixture of chaos and draconic energies mixing.
Basically, when you combine all of the dialogue surrounding that you get that her monologue was not talking about all of the energy going into the reactor being draconic energy, but rather the energy that she egged the Inquest chief into adding to the reactor was draconic energy.
Which is a very important differentiation.
So yes, Taimi is the sole exception.
- How much dragon energy do you think was present in the reactor?
- Even a little should cause corruption, right?
- And if there was none then the first known experiments with dragon energy happened with Kudu at CoE, not at the thaumanova reactor.
Regardless after playing the recent story I realize that future data, and most likely more Taimi retcons are coming.
This discussion is not as pressing until after Taimi has entered omadds machine.
- Not one of the inquest participating in Scarlet’s Thaumanova experiments were corrupted by the dragon energy they were dealing with.
- In the fallout of the Thaumanova reactor, the dragon energy split into non corrupted areas. And no one since has been corrupted through proximity.
Not all of the magic at Thaumanova was chaos magic. Thaumanova was essentially a power plant, like Luminates, based on regular magic. The Inquest happened to be doing experimental work on dragon magic (unknowingly), it interacted with ley line magic, and everything went boom. The majority of the magic there is regular magic, dragon magic was just a perturbation that destabilised it.
If anything, this provides evidence that there IS a distinction between dragon magic and ley line magic.
- Neither the Sylvari, nor Mawdrey behave like our definition of Dragon Magic. Even if they can be disregarded as free corruption, it still requires updating our definition.
That’s a separate issue, but to use the virus analogy, sylvari, Mawdrey, and Glint all appear to essentially be cases of things that were infected, the virus was removed, and then the virus was inoculated against. However, some of the effects remain: Mordremoth still had a ‘back door’ into sylvari minds, for instance.
Here is one way to resolve the terminology of Scarlet and Taimi.
- Taimi’s exact phrase was : “Magic as we know it is like white light, composed of all the different types of dragon magic.”
- what if she was being literal?
- what if dragon magic is a component, not a conversion, of ley magic?
She’d just jumped to a conclusion. I don’t think she was being particularly careful about her word choice there.
My takeaway from that is that “magic as we know it” has the same spectrum as dragon magic. However, regular magic doesn’t corrupt creatures into dragon minions.
Perhaps chaos magic actually is a mixture of all or most of the dragon domains. And is itself an erratic form of ley-magic.
Possible.
The Margonites share all of the properties of dragon magic except the hive mind,
Really? We don’t know the process of how the Margonites became demons except that, quite literally, “a god did it”, and that margonite demons consume souls. Consumption of souls may be consumption of magic by another means, but I don’t think Margonites and dragon minions are equivalent.
@konig, replay the fractal
All of the icebrood are teleported in by rips in space time. Same with the branded, etc. That’s why we don’t see any icebrood inquest.
I am not concerned whether all of the chaos magic was dragon energy. Only that we agree some of it was. Because if so, Scarlet referred to some amount of magic as dragon energy, and no one was corrupted by it before or after. Ergo Taimi is not the only exception.
@ drax
Margonites and Dragon Minions
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
IF I understand the vision in Omadd’s machine correctly, the dragon’s spheres of influence are part of the eternal alchemy. I interpet as meaning the dragons have been here from the beginning of Tyria, absorbing and then releasing magic. If that’s the case, unless new magic is being created, then all magic should be contaminated with dragon magic. The only other way for non dragon magic to exist is that something is cleansing magic from dragon corruption. Where is new magic being created, or what is cleansing magic.
Margonites and Dragon Minions
- corrupted by exposure to magic.
- sterile, with a necessity to convert
- known for consuming a substance
- underwent a physical transformation that grew worse over time.
Margonites and Dragon Minions
- corrupted by exposure to magic.
- sterile, with a necessity to convert
- known for consuming a substance
- underwent a physical transformation that grew worse over time.
- Source? I don’t think we’ve ever actually been given how the Margonites became Margonites beyond “Abaddon did it.”
- There’s that line in the Skritt story, but I think that was unreliable narrator. We see Risen laying eggs, Blighting Trees generating minions, and so on… dragon minions clearly can make more of themselves.
- “Known for consuming a substance” is so broad as to be useless. Humans are known for consuming food, water, and oxygen.
- The Margonite wiki page says that, but I’d need a primary source – it’s been a while since I’ve read up on Margonite stuff, and the wiki pages are notoriously unreliable when it comes to lore (it has a LOT of speculation posted as fact). Either way, though, “a physical transformation that grows worse over time” is so broad as to be useless as evidence. Aging counts, for instance.
IF I understand the vision in Omadd’s machine correctly, the dragon’s spheres of influence are part of the eternal alchemy. I interpet as meaning the dragons have been here from the beginning of Tyria, absorbing and then releasing magic. If that’s the case, unless new magic is being created, then all magic should be contaminated with dragon magic. The only other way for non dragon magic to exist is that something is cleansing magic from dragon corruption. Where is new magic being created, or what is cleansing magic.
The magic the Elder Dragons eat is cleansed in their digestion, and exuded as uncorrupted magic when they sleep.
However your idea is theoretically possible if the Elder Dragons don’t cleanse it 100%.
My currently theory is that corruption is just radioactive magic that has been split in specific ways. So like all atoms contain radioactive particles, all magic contains dragon energy.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
Margonites and Dragon Minions
- corrupted by exposure to magic.
- sterile, with a necessity to convert
- known for consuming a substance
- underwent a physical transformation that grew worse over time.
- Source? I don’t think we’ve ever actually been given how the Margonites became Margonites beyond “Abaddon did it.”
- There’s that line in the Skritt story, but I think that was unreliable narrator. We see Risen laying eggs, Blighting Trees generating minions, and so on… dragon minions clearly can make more of themselves.
- “Known for consuming a substance” is so broad as to be useless. Humans are known for consuming food, water, and oxygen.
- The Margonite wiki page says that, but I’d need a primary source – it’s been a while since I’ve read up on Margonite stuff, and the wiki pages are notoriously unreliable when it comes to lore (it has a LOT of speculation posted as fact). Either way, though, “a physical transformation that grows worse over time” is so broad as to be useless as evidence. Aging counts, for instance.
- I would ask Konig about sources for the wiki page. He wrote/approved it, including the line “Since that time their constant exposure to Abaddon’s power has transformed them into the demons encountered in Elona.”
- If souls are magical then both are known for consuming magic.
- Too be fair there are also breeding pools for demons. That doesn’t stop the vast majority of demons/margonites and minions from being sterile.
- As for physical transformation. They became more demonic and less humanoid. The same trend as dragon corruption (i.e become less flesh and more ice).
IF I understand the vision in Omadd’s machine correctly, the dragon’s spheres of influence are part of the eternal alchemy. I interpet as meaning the dragons have been here from the beginning of Tyria, absorbing and then releasing magic. If that’s the case, unless new magic is being created, then all magic should be contaminated with dragon magic. The only other way for non dragon magic to exist is that something is cleansing magic from dragon corruption. Where is new magic being created, or what is cleansing magic.
The magic the Elder Dragons eat is cleansed in their digestion, and exuded as uncorrupted magic when they sleep.
However your idea is theoretically possible if the Elder Dragons don’t cleanse it 100%.
My currently theory is that corruption is just radioactive magic that has been split in specific ways. So like all atoms contain radioactive particles, all magic contains dragon energy.
You’re answer does not appear to make sense. If dragons cleanse magic of dragon corruption, then where does dragon magic come from?
@konig, replay the fractal
All of the icebrood are teleported in by rips in space time. Same with the branded, etc. That’s why we don’t see any icebrood inquest.I am not concerned whether all of the chaos magic was dragon energy. Only that we agree some of it was. Because if so, Scarlet referred to some amount of magic as dragon energy, and no one was corrupted by it before or after. Ergo Taimi is not the only exception.
- your definition is very suspect.
See Crucible of Eternity. The Inquest very obviously have a method of handling draconic energy without being corrupted by it. Clearly, this means that they never touch it directly.
The environments of the Thaumanova city, however, very clearly change – it’s not all teleportation. That ice across the SW corner of Thaumanova is not teleported in; the overgrowth in SE corner of Thaumanova is not teleported in; nor is the floating bubbles making the air almost water-like in NE corner of Thaumanova teleported in. The environment of the city itself was changed into mirroring aspects of Jormag, Mordremoth, and the Deep Sea Dragon.
@ drax
Margonites and Dragon Minions
- corrupted by exposure to magic.
- sterile, with a necessity to convert
- known for consuming a substance
- underwent a physical transformation that grew worse over time.
However, Margonites do not have a hive mind. They are not mentally corrupted, which dragon corruption does.
We also do not know how they were transformed – while magic is the obvious solution, we do not know the type or procedure of magic, whether it was merely exposure or a very complex ritual, etc. etc.
And they do not have “a necessity to convert”.
I also do not recall any case of either dragon corruption or the Margonites “growing worse over time”.
IF I understand the vision in Omadd’s machine correctly, the dragon’s spheres of influence are part of the eternal alchemy. I interpet as meaning the dragons have been here from the beginning of Tyria, absorbing and then releasing magic. If that’s the case, unless new magic is being created, then all magic should be contaminated with dragon magic. The only other way for non dragon magic to exist is that something is cleansing magic from dragon corruption. Where is new magic being created, or what is cleansing magic.
The vision in Omadd’s Machine doesn’t show the Eternal Alchemy – which is the inner workings of all things – but instead shows The All – which is the inner workings of Tyria and six bodies of power that are tied somehow to the Elder Dragons (there is reason to suspect whether the six spheres were the Elder Dragons themselves or not – some lore in the Durmand Priory / Hidden Arcana implies otherwise).
There’s also heavy indication that there were dragon races – from the various dragons in Cantha to the bone dragons found in Tyria, and the giant draconian skulls found in the Crystal Desert (once suspected to be Giganticus Lupicus but now rather disproven).
The Elder Dragons do not release “contaminated” magic when they hibernate / release magic. They only do so when awake and actively corrupting.
As to what they corrupted going away, that’s harder to explain as we’ve not seen anything to show that the physical or magical dragon energy can be changed… best indication we have is the theory that the Orrian History Scrolls describing the Six Gods’ arrival being Balthazar and Melandru getting rid of old dragon corruption – but that would only explain such between the current and previous dragonrises, and not from before then.
Perhaps dragon corruption simply “fades” over a long period of time (thousands of years).
You’re answer does not appear to make sense. If dragons cleanse magic of dragon corruption, then where does dragon magic come from?
Think of it like this:
Is the Elder Dragon awake?
Yes → Exudes “corrupted” magic
No → Exudes “cleansed” magic
Thus the Elder Dragons function as both purifier (when sleeping) and corruptor (when awake). Or that’s what I think drax is saying.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
@Konig
You are contradicting yourself.
The Searing changed the environment in ways mirroring Kralkatorrik. But as you said that does not make it corruption, or dragon energy. You can’t turn around and say the opposite for the Thaumanova Reactor because your definition is incongruous with its aftermath.
Did the dragon energy cleanse itself during the explosion? Was there forgotten magic in the reactor? Perhaps a process we don’t understand.
Regardless, canon dragon energy is not acting like its counterparts.
IF I understand the vision in Omadd’s machine correctly, the dragon’s spheres of influence are part of the eternal alchemy. I interpet as meaning the dragons have been here from the beginning of Tyria, absorbing and then releasing magic. If that’s the case, unless new magic is being created, then all magic should be contaminated with dragon magic. The only other way for non dragon magic to exist is that something is cleansing magic from dragon corruption. Where is new magic being created, or what is cleansing magic.
Your post made me think, what if what you said and Taimi’s theory go hand in hand. While we know that Elder Dragons have specific spheres of magic, it is unknown why they cannot feed from the magic of other spheres unless the Dragon that maintained it is dead. It could be that some ancient magical law forces them to adhere to only wherr they have domain, or if it is merely to keep some sort of diplomacy and not start a war. But it could make sense that basically there are two main types of Tyrian magic. Ley magic and Dragon magic. They both coexist with Elder Dragon magic being a twisted form of ley magic. Basically, that the Elder Dragon consumes the full color spectrum of magic, but something (whether intentional or not) forces them to only retain the magic of their domain and release the rest.
Then, the magic that they retain gets twisted within them and becomes what we call Dragon magic. This Dragon magic then, for another unknown reason, gets exuded from their bodies while they rest, and even possibly to a degree while they are active. This exuded magic is still Dragon Magikittenil it, in nature, interacts with it’s opposed domain and it’s corruption is negates eventually leading it to reenter the flow of ley magic as put cleansed magic. I am intrigued, because if this theory is correct, then we could possibly take Steve’s magic (assuming it opposes Kralkatorrik’s magic) and cleanse the Brand!
Essentially, my working assumption is that releasing corrupted magic, or “dragon magic”, is something that the dragons and their minions have to choose to do. When they’re sleeping (or dead), most of the magic they release is uncorrupted because they’re not actively corrupting it.
Mind you, Narcemus’ idea is an interesting one – that when energies of opposing dragons interact, they cleanse one another. This could be how Caladbolg was able to cleanse Zhaitan’s corruption from the Source of Orr.
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