Alternate Reality Tyria - What would you do?

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Posted by: azureai.9764

azureai.9764

Hey folks -

A common trope in comics is for the heroes to go to an alternate reality where history went even worse. Think “Flashpoint” or the Crime Syndicate in DC Comics; Age of Apocalypse or “House of M” in Marvel Comics; or even the new show “Man In the High Castle.”

If you were to craft a dark, new Tyria for your character to be stranded in for a while – what events would you mess with? Why? What would be the result of the change?

Have fun!

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

How about this one: Kralkatorrik was defeated by Destiny’s Edge because Logan decided to reject returning to Queen Jenna, Snaff/Glint are saved, but Jenna perished.

Let’s also correlate what we know about Elder Dragons thus far then, Zhaitan is still alive so I presume at some point he and the others will start producing minions with Kralkatorrik’s Magic. Plus Glint being alive and Snaff surviving means the group might still be together, though I imagine Logan would drift away in self-loathing…

Honestly though, I haven’t enough time right this second to jot down a synopsis of how things would play out for us, but I do presume we would be dealing with a much stronger set of Elder Dragons, and maybe even a ‘darker’ Logan. Hell, maybe Logan joins up with Scarlet for ‘reasons’, acting as a serious foil to her schemes. Like I said, lots of paths just from this one change.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

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Posted by: Fenom.9457

Fenom.9457

In scarlet’s war, the toxic alliance destroyed the rest of them (including briar herself), and built the Toxic Citadel, with the citadel itself being as large as the entire LA map and the surrounding area that’s technically the citadel (scout towers, barracks, turrets, armories, etc) reaches into bloodstone, gendaren, lornars, and Tengu land. This leads the Tengu to lose even MORE land, and they never leave the Dominion. When mordy rises, no one opposes him since he’s off in the middle of nowhere. ALL Sylvari (toxic, nightmare, regs) become Mordrem Guard. As the Toxic Alliance takes over Kryta, everywhere south of DR retreats into the Woodland Cascades after the inexplicable disappearance of all Centaurs in the area (future story explains it). Primordus creates a sinkhole over the Black Citadel and sieges it in an epic battle against the charr. The charr eventually retreat all the way back to the Blood Legion Homelands. The Ogres and Giants (they’re not extinct – it’s only known they’re nowhere near the current world, but in this one they found their way to our area.) Are in Blazeridge, making the Charr journey harder. The Iron Legion is so badly damaged that it causes a brief civil war over whether or not to dissolve Iron Legion survivors into the other legions or not. The Norn, without any help, remain trapped between Jormag in the north, Primordus in the east, Toxic in the west, and Zhaitan in the south (he spreads into lower Steamspur without proper opposition). The Asura modify Rata Sum, more than tripling its size and doing many other things to it, and raise their city tens of thousands of feet in the sky, away from the world. That way, they’re safe from all attacks except dragon champions, which the city is redesigned for handling those. None of the EDs care enough to get the city themselves.. for now. The grove is the biggest Blighted Tree, now known as the Shadow Foundry – nobody goes there. Basically, every race is either moved out or destroyed, which means this game’d have different regions, including some off the map, and go to our regions only in all out war expansions. Summary: The humans are in the Woodland Cascades (DR being abandoned before the Alliance invades, to save more lives.) with nowhere south to go. The norn are barely surviving, and are trapped but not actively under full attack. The Sylvari are all gone. The Asura are in the upper atmosphere, and have created so many other little floating things they practically have their own world. There are also some natural islands up there…… The charr are in the Blood Legion Homelands pretty much exclusively. Blazeridge is inhabited by Ogres and Giants (not lupis, that’s for another place and story). Crystal Desert is all Kralks. Orr and surrounding Steamspur and SOS is undead. Kryta is the Toxic Alliance, with exclusively krait(now called the Blood Empire.). Far Shiverpeaks is Jormag, with Central being Norn. Ring of Fire is only inhabited by a few Kodan sanctuaries, the last in the world. Other things happen there, but nothing major really. Tarnished Coast and Maguuma are entirely Mordremoth’s, except for the completely surrounded Dominion of Winds. Maguuma Wastes is.. unknown, as is Janthir and off-map places. Somewhere in the unending ocean is the DSD, which is sinisterly doing things elsewhere, which would be the biggest plot point later on. By then, the Largos, Quaggan, and non Empire Krait would be ALMOST wiped out.. but not quite.. though more races probs live down there anyway. Also beyond the map are many interesting places. Including a snow kingdom of people that are basically blue elves physically (more story for later), and lizard people (think Trandoshans (Star Wars) for appearance), in the dense forests. and a “forest” of thorn and briar, etc.. I can go on forever, but that’s the outline of this Central Tyria without anyone particularly heroic.

Want to read about a nice mini expansion to make Mordremoth and Zhaitan better?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Mini-Expansion-Vengeance/first#post6473305

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Posted by: Saurrec.6402

Saurrec.6402

How far back would the history change go? Imagine if the flame legion had defeated Kalla and the other legions if that happened I guess all the “Modern” charr would be renegade or enslaved, and humans would be on the verge of extinction probably.

But if that had happened maybe the flame legion could have taken out kryta? And picture the charr even marching on the grove or Rata sum, although the charr probably would still be primitive and wouldn’t have all the modern tech they have now.

A physical disability hasn’t stopped me from being a Polite, Helpful, & Badkitten player.

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Posted by: Fenom.9457

Fenom.9457

How far back would the history change go? Imagine if the flame legion had defeated Kalla and the other legions if that happened I guess all the “Modern” charr would be renegade or enslaved, and humans would be on the verge of extinction probably.

But if that had happened maybe the flame legion could have taken out kryta? And picture the charr even marching on the grove or Rata sum, although the charr probably would still be primitive and wouldn’t have all the modern tech they have now.

My changes are mostly only a few years before the game and during.

Want to read about a nice mini expansion to make Mordremoth and Zhaitan better?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Mini-Expansion-Vengeance/first#post6473305

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Posted by: azureai.9764

azureai.9764

Go back as far in history as you’d like! Just be mindful that going back too far will mean literally nothing will be the same as it is now – at some point you’ll prevent folks from being born.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

How about this one: Kralkatorrik was defeated by Destiny’s Edge because Logan decided to reject returning to Queen Jenna, Snaff/Glint are saved, but Jenna perished.

I’ve ran this scenario before, and it has the potential to get a lot darker then the people who claim that Logan obviously made the wrong decision think:

First, Glint is still dead. Glint died before the point where Logan’s presence would have made a difference.

Ebonhawke is destroyed, and Jennah killed. This has the following effects:

First, the charr-human war effectively ends by default, since there is no longer an active front. However, without a truce or even the beginnings of one, neither side is able to effectively work with one another. Individuals in Lion’s Arch and multiracial organisations might be able to put old hatreds aside and work together, but by and large a much greater degree of hatred remains between the two than in the canon timeline. Keep in mind that Ebonhawke was the demonstration that humans and charr could fight together against a common enemy that later inspired others, possibly including the Vigil. (Soulkeeper doesn’t mention who her ‘surprising benefactors’ were, but I’d be surprised if Jennah isn’t one of them, particularly given that Vigil Keep is possibly on Krytan land).

Second, Caudecus is effectively in charge of Kryta again.

There are a variety of ways this could play out.

One is that there is resistance to Caudecus’ rule, possibly rallying around an heir revealed by the orders, plunging Kryta into civil war. If this civil war is still raging by the time Zhaitan (empowered by Kralkatorrik’s energy) decides to hit Lion’s Arch, there’ll probably be nothing stopping him from keeping going north and cutting Kryta in two.

The other is that Caudecus ends up in charge. While we don’t know just what policies Caudecus might have enacted once back in charge, he does seem to disregard the dragons as a threat and disparage cooperation with other races in general… although he might make an exception for villain factions that can be useful such as the Inquest and Nightmare Court (which doesn’t make things much better). So it’s likely that, even if a Pact does form (noting above that it’s possible that in this scenario there’s no Vigil, although it’s possible that a similar organisation might still arise), it won’t have the support from Kryta that Jennah grants it. Outlier possibilities are Caudecus deciding to take the dragons seriously once he’s in charge, or on the opposite side, Caudecus getting it in his head to take back Lion’s Arch.

Third, the effect on the charr is a bit of a wildcard. With the Brand weaker, they might have more resources to send to fighting dragons elsewhere. Alternatively, with the Brand weaker, and without the example of Ebonhawke, they might decide that fighting the dragons isn’t their job and stay out entirely.

Fourth, on Logan… I don’t think he’d be likely to go villain in this scenario. Part of Logan’s issues with Destiny’s Edge after EoD is that he knew he’d effectively sacrificed Snaff and a shot at Kralkatorrik in order to save Jennah, so he spends much of the early story of GW2 doubling down on protecting Jennah to make sure that sacrifice wasn’t in vain. If he’d ended up sacrificing Jennah instead, it’s likely that he’d have the same response in reverse: intensifying his efforts to fight against the dragons to make sure Jennah’s sacrifice wasn’t wasted. If there is a Vigil (or equivalent) in this timeline, Logan would probably be a founding member.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

How far back would the history change go? Imagine if the flame legion had defeated Kalla and the other legions if that happened I guess all the “Modern” charr would be renegade or enslaved, and humans would be on the verge of extinction probably.

But if that had happened maybe the flame legion could have taken out kryta? And picture the charr even marching on the grove or Rata sum, although the charr probably would still be primitive and wouldn’t have all the modern tech they have now.

I’m actually inclined to doubt that. The Flame Legion winning on the Plains of Golghein might have kept the charr united on paper… however, the Flame Legion underutilises its females, so four legions with enslaved femcharr might actually have less overall combat power than three with free femcharr. Throw in the possibility of diehard enemies of the Flame Legion continuing a resistance and the lack of a charr industrial revolution, and the charr might actually be less powerful overall.

Additionally, the allied legions after the rebellion resulted in a more palatable society than the charr would have been under the Flame Legion, which might change the attitudes of other parties. In EOTN, there are indications that the norn and asura might have been starting to lean towards the human side of the charr-human war, but it’s likely that when the shamans were overthrown and replaced with a much more palatable system of government, any impetus towards the charr being regarded as a common threat to everybody would have been lost. Now, it’s unlikely that either would have been filling front-line battalions against the charr, but if the humans had been able to persuade the asura to fully support the fighting (as opposed to simply selling gate services), it could have made a big difference.

There’s also the possibility that humans could have supported a simmering charr rebellion (through intermediaries), keeping the charr weakened enough to achieve the upper hand.

So in the short term, it might be beneficial to humanity.

In the longer term, though, the charr industrial revolution is lost. It’s possible that this might be compensated for somewhat by faster development among the humans and asura, particularly if humans were able to copy and improve on dwarf technology as the charr did in the core canon, but it’s likely that between the loss of the charr industrial revolution and the loss of the charr contribution in soldiers, Tyria would be less well equipped to fight the dragons when they arose.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

Abaddon > was stronger and more entelligent than the other 5 gods combined. It was only the brute force of Balthazar combined with the others that made the war a stalemate until abaddon made a small slipup and he got imprisoned for all eternity.

WHAT IF ABADDON DIDN"T MAKE THE ONE LITTLE SLIP UP AND BEAT THE OTHER FIVE

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

That’s incorrect: he was stronger than two combined (and it’s not even said that it’s any two: there is a distinct hierarchy, and being stronger than Grenth and Lyssa combined is not necessarily being stronger than, say, Dwayna and Balthazar), not all five.

However, let’s say that, for the sake of argument, he did win the War of the Gods. At this point in time he’s angry, but still sane: we’re probably not looking at a Nightfall scenario. His goals at this point would probably be a mix of enshrining the Margonites as masters of the world, and expanding use of magic in the world. So he’d probably fully unlock the Bloodstones, followed by a series of high-magic wars as the Margonites (probably a mix of still-human and ‘ascended’ Margonites) and other followers take whatever land they want… probably destroying half of it in magical catastrophes in the process.

You then have a world which has magic going wild – possibly comparable to where it is in Tyria now, possibly even more so. What happens then depends on how much the awakening of the Elder Dragons can be accelerated due to a high degree of magic. If their awakening can be substantially changed by how much magic they have (from what we’ve seen, it seems as if it can be pushed backwards or forwards by about fifty years or so, but we don’t know if it can be changed by more than that) then the Elder Dragons might start waking up soon afterwards: which might answer once and for all the question of whether a god can beat an Elder Dragon.

If the awakening of the Elder Dragons is something that can’t be hastened by more than a century, though, there might be over a thousand years of high magic levels before the dragons start to awake. In such a Tyria, there’s probably no incentive to develop non-magical technology, so it’d probably be a repeat of the battle between the elder race and the dragons from the last awakening… however, Tyria (or what’s left of it) would likely be united behind Abaddon, and would have had centuries to learn how to use that magic. There’s a good chance that Abaddon and his armies would be able to put the dragons down.

The question would then become… where does the magic go after the dragons are defeated? Without some means of containment, we’d probably be looking at the destruction of Tyria, and the fact that the gods had to appoint Kormir to absorb Abaddon’s power – rather than have one of them absorb it themselves – suggests there’s a limit to how much power one god can absorb. Being the god of knowledge, though, it’s likely that Abaddon would have a plan for this. Given how much Abaddon likes to empower his followers, there’s a good chance that this plan would involve raising his favourites to become a new pantheon of gods.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

In such a scenario, would it be propable that Abaddon drains the magic that the dragon releases, becoming a god-elderdragon himself? (I always thought it was abaddon versus the pantheon, I’m gonna have to look up a source if it was only two gods. But abaddon was known to be the most intelligent or strategically apt god, would he war against a full pantheon if he wasn’t confident he could win?)

As for Lazarus, I don’t think he would exist (in his current state) if abaddon became and maintained a godlike presence on tyria.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

As I noted, the fact that the gods waited for a replacement for Abaddon (which was apparently “a choice only a mortal could make”) suggests that there was some reason the gods imprisoned Abaddon rather than finishing him off and having one of them claim his power. It’s possible that whatever reason they have wouldn’t stop Abaddon from just slurping it all up, though.

Regarding Abaddon’s power before the war, and his choice to go to war: Largely, he was angry, and even then it seems like the war was a series of steps rather than him deciding from the outset to attack the other gods. It started with the Margonites attacking the holy sites of other gods in retaliation for magic being weakened, and then the Forgotten retaliated with extreme force against the Margonites… and then Abaddon weighed in to rescue the Margonites. It’s not particularly clear what exactly happened after that, but it probably became a case of Abaddon feeling that he was committed and might as well try… and being the most powerful god individually, he probably at least had a chance if he was able to divide and conquer, particularly if he’d already started recruiting demonic allies and dark gods such as Dhuum and Menzies. (I think I saw a mention that he managed to defeat, but not destroy, two before the other three ganged up on him and took him down, but I’m not certain about that one – it was a long time ago that I saw that if I did, and a lot of the prerelease information about Abaddon is no longer available.)

Not sure why you bring up Lazarus, but it is highly unlikely that Lazarus would be in his current state. Odds are that in this scenario, the mursaat would have stayed out of Tyria, surrendered to Abaddon, or been destroyed.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

It started with the Margonites attacking the holy sites of other gods in retaliation for magic being weakened, and then the Forgotten retaliated with extreme force against the Margonites… and then Abaddon weighed in to rescue the Margonites. It’s not particularly clear what exactly happened after that, but it probably became a case of Abaddon feeling that he was committed and might as well try…

Is this order right? I thought the margonites were normal humans UNTIL the forgotten hunted them down and abaddon gave them the magic. The order you describe makes it sound like the margonites already had magic before abaddon broke the seal on the bloodstones.

I brought up Lazarus because the stage is currently being set for him to play a very big role in whatever’s gonna happen to all the magic

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Second, Caudecus is effectively in charge of Kryta again.

There are a variety of ways this could play out.

Something missed is that, in either situation it’s unlikely humans would contribute to the Pact. This means little to no human advice in the Pact’s technologies, which includes the airships.

No airships – or slower development of them – means the crucial weaponry against Zhaitan is never made/not made in time.

Kryta falling to Caudecus prior to 1325 AE could spell the defeat of the Pact in its first campaign.

It started with the Margonites attacking the holy sites of other gods in retaliation for magic being weakened, and then the Forgotten retaliated with extreme force against the Margonites… and then Abaddon weighed in to rescue the Margonites. It’s not particularly clear what exactly happened after that, but it probably became a case of Abaddon feeling that he was committed and might as well try…

Is this order right? I thought the margonites were normal humans UNTIL the forgotten hunted them down and abaddon gave them the magic. The order you describe makes it sound like the margonites already had magic before abaddon broke the seal on the bloodstones.

They were called Margonites before they were turned into the demonic entities. Margonites were a human nationality at the time they defaced the Temple of the Six and the Forgotten retaliated with war.

Abaddon “weighing in to rescue” the Margonites is when he turned them into demonic entities.

<hr>

Here’s a scenario not thought up:

What if Doric was never crowned king?

In the immediate, this means:

  • Kryta is never established by Doric’s son, Mazdak. Thus, in turn, could never be colonized by Elona in 300 AE who wouldn’t have, in turn, spread north into centaur lands. The Centaur War would not exist, Thorn would never have ruled. But at the same time, with charr’s victory in Ascalon (if it still happened) and Zhaitan’s eventual rise, there’d be no human lands in Central Tyria.
  • The wars sparked by Abaddon’s gift of magic is never pleaded to end. The Five may not have rescinded the ‘gift’ and Abaddon may never have rebelled. If the gift was never rescinded, humanity might have either destroyed itself or proved capable of repelling against things like the Searing, especially if the Six never had infighting or civil war (they may still have, due to the Margonites defacing the statues of the other gods being the sparking situation). But with magic more free in the world, the Elder Dragons may have woken sooner too.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

[Quote]

It started with the Margonites attacking the holy sites of other gods in retaliation for magic being weakened, and then the Forgotten retaliated with extreme force against the Margonites… and then Abaddon weighed in to rescue the Margonites. It’s not particularly clear what exactly happened after that, but it probably became a case of Abaddon feeling that he was committed and might as well try…

Is this order right? I thought the margonites were normal humans UNTIL the forgotten hunted them down and abaddon gave them the magic. The order you describe makes it sound like the margonites already had magic before abaddon broke the seal on the bloodstones.

They were called Margonites before they were turned into the demonic entities. Margonites were a human nationality at the time they defaced the Temple of the Six and the Forgotten retaliated with war.

Abaddon “weighing in to rescue” the Margonites is when he turned them into demonic entities.[/quote]
[/quote]

My bad. By normal humans I meant not yet having magic. And wasn’t the demonic transformation a result of being locked into the realm of madness (foundry of failed creations at the time)

Bb codes are a hell on the cellphone

(edited by Amaimon.7823)

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Remember that the whole thing Abaddon was disagreeing with the gods over was the limiting of magic- all of the conflict happened after the bloodstone was split, meaning that magic was already in a very similar state to what we had in GW1 (although the separate spellcasting professions may not have developed yet.) The Margonites very much had magic, as did the Forgotten, and the other humans, and the rest of the world.

The Margonites were turned into demons by Abaddon’s ‘blessings’ during the course of the war, later on when things had fully escalated. It’s implied that all the ones we see in the Realm of Torment were transformed before their imprisonment, although we don’t know for sure. Either way, though, it was a deliberate action on Abaddon’s part- being locked in just drives souls insane and turns them purple, it doesn’t make them into demons.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

My bad. By normal humans I meant not yet having magic. And wasn’t the demonic transformation a result of being locked into the realm of madness (foundry of failed creations at the time)

Firstly, realm of torment – and it contained the foundry of failed creations during gw1’s time, but the place may not have existed during the time of the Exodus (the realm of torment also has far more than just the foundry of failed creations).

And the demonic transformation was during that war before the Exodus – Abaddon even created the Horde of Darkness out of some of those transformed humans.

They had magic at the time, as the war happened after Abaddon’s gift of magic. Basically, the timeline as best we know is:

  1. Multiple gods are granting magic in small doses over a long period of time (implication/personal interpretation is that the scripture events include these small doses).
  2. Abaddon grants magic in a huge dose.
  3. Margonites, already having Abaddon as their patron god, go a bit overzealous and deface Temple of the Six.
  4. Forgotten enact retribution and wage war with the Margonites.
  5. Around this time (may be before, during, or slightly after the above two points), wars occur elsewhere, a city called Jumah is under siege with King Doric as witness during his trek to Arah, where he pleads to three of the Six Gods in Arah.
  6. Abaddon hears Jadoth’s plea, and destroys a nearby Forgotten fleet and turns Jadoth into the demonic entity most Margonites would become.
  7. Abaddon begins turning more Margonites into demonic entities.
  8. Around this time (may be before, during, or slightly after the above two points), the Five Gods restrict magic again and sunder the Bloodstone (this final part may occur later on, we’re not sure).
  9. The other Five Gods see Abaddon’s interactions and reacts violently.
  10. Abaddon lays siege to the Gates of Heaven with the Horde of Darkness.
  11. Abaddon is bested by the Five Gods and sent to the Realm of Torment, along with the Margonites transformed already. There are still some Margonites remaining as humans, and they move to the Crystal Desert to build towers out of their ships at Thirsty River, led by King Khimaar.

On an aside, we know that there was a small amount of magic in the world even before the Six Gods began gifting it in small doses, because the Elder Dragons naturally leaked magic out while hibernating and they had been hibernating for a few thousand years already. It just was not a commonplace thing – rare enough for magic to be considered a creation from the gods.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

My bad. By normal humans I meant not yet having magic. And wasn’t the demonic transformation a result of being locked into the realm of madness (foundry of failed creations at the time)

Firstly, realm of torment – and it contained the foundry of failed creations during gw1’s time, but the place may not have existed during the time of the Exodus (the realm of torment also has far more than just the foundry of failed creations).

And the demonic transformation was during that war before the Exodus – Abaddon even created the Horde of Darkness out of some of those transformed humans.

They had magic at the time, as the war happened after Abaddon’s gift of magic. Basically, the timeline as best we know is:

  1. Multiple gods are granting magic in small doses over a long period of time (implication/personal interpretation is that the scripture events include these small doses).
  2. Abaddon grants magic in a huge dose.
  3. Margonites, already having Abaddon as their patron god, go a bit overzealous and deface Temple of the Six.
  4. Forgotten enact retribution and wage war with the Margonites.
  5. Around this time (may be before, during, or slightly after the above two points), wars occur elsewhere, a city called Jumah is under siege with King Doric as witness during his trek to Arah, where he pleads to three of the Six Gods in Arah.
  6. Abaddon hears Jadoth’s plea, and destroys a nearby Forgotten fleet and turns Jadoth into the demonic entity most Margonites would become.
  7. Abaddon begins turning more Margonites into demonic entities.
  8. Around this time (may be before, during, or slightly after the above two points), the Five Gods restrict magic again and sunder the Bloodstone (this final part may occur later on, we’re not sure).
  9. The other Five Gods see Abaddon’s interactions and reacts violently.
  10. Abaddon lays siege to the Gates of Heaven with the Horde of Darkness.
  11. Abaddon is bested by the Five Gods and sent to the Realm of Torment, along with the Margonites transformed already. There are still some Margonites remaining as humans, and they move to the Crystal Desert to build towers out of their ships at Thirsty River, led by King Khimaar.

On an aside, we know that there was a small amount of magic in the world even before the Six Gods began gifting it in small doses, because the Elder Dragons naturally leaked magic out while hibernating and they had been hibernating for a few thousand years already. It just was not a commonplace thing – rare enough for magic to be considered a creation from the gods.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

From what I recall of the Nightfall history and prerelease information, 5 and 8 actually happened before 3: the Margonites started attacking the holy sites of the other gods, including the Temple of the Six, in retaliation for the other gods weakening Abaddon’s gift.

What’s not clear from what I recall is whether this was in response to Abaddon being angry that the decision was made without consulting him (and the Margonites became aware that he was angry and started attacking holy sites thinking it would please him), or whether the Margonites were just throwing a tantrum about having their magic taken away.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Silvercyclone.1462

Silvercyclone.1462

A reality where Scarlett didn’t destroy Lions Arch.

I’m pretty sure most of the players would love to see this since the old LA was far better than the crap we have now. I’d pay money for them to bring it back even for a few weeks a year.

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Posted by: Tiefsee.3647

Tiefsee.3647

Place the seed of the pale tree in orr….

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

From what I recall of the Nightfall history and prerelease information, 5 and 8 actually happened before 3: the Margonites started attacking the holy sites of the other gods, including the Temple of the Six, in retaliation for the other gods weakening Abaddon’s gift.

What’s not clear from what I recall is whether this was in response to Abaddon being angry that the decision was made without consulting him (and the Margonites became aware that he was angry and started attacking holy sites thinking it would please him), or whether the Margonites were just throwing a tantrum about having their magic taken away.

Here’s the two links of fan-translations for that pre-release information:

http://guildwiki.gamepedia.com/Talk:Abaddon/Archive_1#Background_story_on_Abbadon

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/76125-why-abaddon-turned-evil/page-2?&#entry2100579

The latter has more details. While it does talk about the Margonites’ actions after talking about the Bloodstone, there’s no direct correlation created between the two events. It’s kind of a ‘fade to black, meanwhile elsewhere…’ situation. So they could be happening in any order, but they happened in roughly the same time period.

Though you’d be right, most likely the acts with the Bloodstone came before the Margonites pulled their stunts.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: azureai.9764

azureai.9764

Place the seed of the pale tree in orr….

Neat idea, but it’s somewhat impossible. Orr didn’t rise from the sea until 1219 AE. Ventari died near the fledgling Pale Tree in 1180 AE.
_

This actually leads me to an interesting AU that I was banding about. What if Ventari didn’t die near the Pale Tree and didn’t leave the tablet?

The Pale Tree would have become Mordremoth’s minion, and started pumping out Sylvari much more like the Mordrem. Rata Sum and the humans would have had EVEN MORE dragon minions on their doorstep. In the case of the humans, I think that would spell Kryta’s doom.

The Pact, which was formed under the auspices of the Sylvari, would never have formed without someone the three Orders all came to trust. And without Trahearne, would anyone have noticed the oncoming invasion of Claw Island and Lion’s Arch?

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

Place the seed of the pale tree in orr….

Neat idea, but it’s somewhat impossible. Orr didn’t rise from the sea until 1219 AE. Ventari died near the fledgling Pale Tree in 1180 AE.
_

This actually leads me to an interesting AU that I was banding about. What if Ventari didn’t die near the Pale Tree and didn’t leave the tablet?

The Pale Tree would have become Mordremoth’s minion, and started pumping out Sylvari much more like the Mordrem. Rata Sum and the humans would have had EVEN MORE dragon minions on their doorstep. In the case of the humans, I think that would spell Kryta’s doom.

The Pact, which was formed under the auspices of the Sylvari, would never have formed without someone the three Orders all came to trust. And without Trahearne, would anyone have noticed the oncoming invasion of Claw Island and Lion’s Arch?

Orr wasn’t completely sunken, just mostly, Livia went there to find the scepter of Orr to my understanding. Although the area was likely still full of Orrian undead making it an unlikely place for a bunch of passivists to go.

I find it incredibly unlikely that Ventari and his tablet is what kept the pale tree from becoming a blighting tree. Her freedom had to have come from elsewhere, otherwise we could reason with Dragon minions, but this is not the case. Though the Tablet likely had a huge impact on the Pale Tree’s outlook on the world and It would be interesting to know if she might have been more violent without Ventari’s influence.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

Place the seed of the pale tree in orr….

Neat idea, but it’s somewhat impossible. Orr didn’t rise from the sea until 1219 AE. Ventari died near the fledgling Pale Tree in 1180 AE.
_

This actually leads me to an interesting AU that I was banding about. What if Ventari didn’t die near the Pale Tree and didn’t leave the tablet?

The Pale Tree would have become Mordremoth’s minion, and started pumping out Sylvari much more like the Mordrem. Rata Sum and the humans would have had EVEN MORE dragon minions on their doorstep. In the case of the humans, I think that would spell Kryta’s doom.

The Pact, which was formed under the auspices of the Sylvari, would never have formed without someone the three Orders all came to trust. And without Trahearne, would anyone have noticed the oncoming invasion of Claw Island and Lion’s Arch?

Orr wasn’t completely sunken, just mostly, Livia went there to find the scepter of Orr to my understanding. Although the area was likely still full of Orrian undead making it an unlikely place for a bunch of passivists to go.

I find it incredibly unlikely that Ventari and his tablet is what kept the pale tree from becoming a blighting tree. Her freedom had to have come from elsewhere, otherwise we could reason with Dragon minions, but this is not the case. Though the Tablet likely had a huge impact on the Pale Tree’s outlook on the world and It would be interesting to know if she might have been more violent without Ventari’s influence.

Didnt we find the scepter of orr already in gw1? And then it got lost with the Lich kn the Ember Island chain. I did hear livia git it now, but i dont think it ever found its way back to orr, hardly considering it sank i doubt anyone would go there

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Posted by: azureai.9764

azureai.9764

I find it incredibly unlikely that Ventari and his tablet is what kept the pale tree from becoming a blighting tree. Her freedom had to have come from elsewhere, otherwise we could reason with Dragon minions, but this is not the case. Though the Tablet likely had a huge impact on the Pale Tree’s outlook on the world and It would be interesting to know if she might have been more violent without Ventari’s influence.

Dragon Champions like Glint and the Pale Tree seem to retain some level of independence – they have to in order to do their work. But to truly be free of influence, to make up their own minds on things – that seems to take some kind of intervention.

For Glint, that intervention was the Forgotten’s ritual. For the Pale Tree, it’s presumed that was the intervening presence of Ventari’s tablet. Assuming that’s true, the AU of a Blighted Pale Tree would be entertaining.

Maybe the charr would make some nice chopped salads.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Ventari’s tablet has no magical properties, unlike the Forgotten’s ritual which is explicitly stated to have given Glint free will.

While Dragon champions do have some level of independence, they have no free will – their will is still the Elder Dragon’s will. They are still slaves. It’s just that they can go about choosing how to serve the will – but they must still serve it.

Ventari’s tablet’s actions toward the Pale Tree is closer to Glint hearing the thoughts of her victims. Those thoughts allowed Glint to sympathize with the races and led to her betraying Kralkatorrik. By the implication, she had regained her free will (underwent the ritual) already at that point.

Basically meaning that the ritual did not change Glint’s loyalties, but rather it gave her the chance to change her loyalties.

So if Ventari never lived near the Pale Tree, then it would be less likely that she would be a Blighting Tree, and more that she just wouldn’t have the morals she does. This could lead her to being evil, but it would be an independent evil or a willing following of Mordremoth – too little is really known about the Pale Tree’s motivations, or how she knew about Glint’s egg, to really be certain.

Ogden makes mention that he is part of a group that pays attention to things like the PC’s vision of the egg – he somehow knew about it despite no one mentioning anything. This implies that Ogden and the Pale Tree – either directly or through intermediaries were in communication and agreed to give the PC the vision of the egg. If so, then there may have been influences other than Ventari that drove the Pale Tree to act the way she has been acting. Meaning that even without Ventari’s teachings, the Pale Tree may still be on the path of good.

However, the most likely situation would be that the Pale Tree would be like Malyck’s tree – though we don’t know much about said tree, we know that it’s not a Blighting Tree.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

It’s one of the reasons why it was a crying shame that Malyck got dropped from HoT, since that would have given us a data point for sylvari that were not influenced by the tablet.

However, the point about free will is an important one. Dragon champions have discretion in that they can choose how to serve their dragon, but do not have the free will to choose not to. Freed dragon minions gain the ability to choose not to, but can choose to serve nonetheless. This is a loophole that Mordremoth exploited with the sylvari: he can’t simply assume their loyalty as he can with his regular minions, but he can bombard them with his thoughts until they don’t recognise where Mordremoth ends and they begin any more. The method he uses would probably work against any race if he had the mental connection.

From Malyck, however, it looks like without the Tablet the sylvari would have been fairly human in their thinking (which makes sense: fernhounds act a lot like dogs) – Malyck largely behaves how you’d expect a human might act in those circumstances. The main effect of the Tablet seems to have been to polarise the sylvari: instead of having a broad spectrum from good to evil, the sylvari who follow the Tablet are good while those who follow Nightmare are mostly sadistic torturers and murderers, with little in between. Those who might otherwise be inclined to be neutral are pushed by the Tablet towards good, while those who just aren’t compatible with the Tablet’s philosophies get pushed into the Nightmare Court, when otherwise they might just be a little overly ruthless in their goals. (One of Cadeyrne’s tipping points, for instance, was being told not to kill the young krait – objectively speaking, he has a point. It is far more likely that those krait will become a threat to the sylvari in the future than not.) Without the Tablet, you’d have a more balanced spectrum: although it’s possible that the interaction between Dream and Nightmare still pushes them more towards the extremes.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

I understood the tablet of ventari to be a guideline for a life that the elder dragon has trouble corrupting you nits not a magical barrier, but rather a way to tell when the dragon is messing with your memories and thoughts since the actions of ventari contradict the will of the dragon. Ghe reason i accepted this theory is because the nightmare doesnt have the tablet, but they have a sheer hatred for servitude, claiming the ED is worse than ilk if the pale tree, meaning they too will defy thoughts of servitude as a replacement for ventaris tablet. Making the soundless the most vulnerable sylvan

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

That could well be an influence, yes. The Tablet can’t be the be-all-and-end-all of sylvari being able to fight against Mordremoth as some people have claimed, but a strong sense of purpose does seem to be have been one of the best indicators for being able to resist Mordremoth. The polarisation I spoke of has probably helped there to be more sylvari that have that strength of purpose, whether that sense of purpose was to follow the ideals of Ventari’s tablet, or a strong desire for freedom.

However, I think the Pale Tree would still have had free will from Modremoth without the Tablet. She may have independently chosen to serve him anyway… that’s hard to say.

Possibly a more likely scenario, if the Pale Tree hadn’t been exposed to Ventari’s philosophies, is this:

Without the tenets of Ventari’s tablet to guide them otherwise, the sylvari go to war against the asura in retaliation for the experiments performed on Malomedies and the Secondborn. At some point, it’s likely that the asura will find some way to bring humans into the war, likely in exchange for asura technology to use against the centaurs and charr.

Most likely result is that the Grove is then destroyed in fairly short order by combined human-asura forces. Subsequent asura support for humans in the charr-human war (note that even in the core canon, charr consider that asura favoured humans, although the asura remained formally neutral) further isolates the charr diplomatically, entrenching a charr-against-the-world attitude. There is no Destiny’s Edge as we know it, and little chance of a coordinated interracial effort against the dragons.

Alternatively, the Grove proves able to stalemate the conflict. In this scenario, a desperate Pale Tree might be motivated to willingly enter Mordremoth’s service in exchange for her survival and the survival of her children. Again, Destiny’s Edge and the Pact as we know them do not exist.

Possibility 3 is that some peace is brokered before the fighting goes too far. We’ve seen evidence that the Dream itself has its own goals, so even without the Tablet, the Dream might issue Wyld Hunts aimed towards ending the conflict. Another possibility could involve humans, particularly human followers of Melandru, recognising that the sylvari aren’t mindless monsters and brokering a peace. Under this possibility, the timeline might proceed in a manner similar to how it occurs in canon, but there would likely be more sylvari-asura animosity.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

Place the seed of the pale tree in orr….

Neat idea, but it’s somewhat impossible. Orr didn’t rise from the sea until 1219 AE. Ventari died near the fledgling Pale Tree in 1180 AE.
_

This actually leads me to an interesting AU that I was banding about. What if Ventari didn’t die near the Pale Tree and didn’t leave the tablet?

The Pale Tree would have become Mordremoth’s minion, and started pumping out Sylvari much more like the Mordrem. Rata Sum and the humans would have had EVEN MORE dragon minions on their doorstep. In the case of the humans, I think that would spell Kryta’s doom.

The Pact, which was formed under the auspices of the Sylvari, would never have formed without someone the three Orders all came to trust. And without Trahearne, would anyone have noticed the oncoming invasion of Claw Island and Lion’s Arch?

Orr wasn’t completely sunken, just mostly, Livia went there to find the scepter of Orr to my understanding. Although the area was likely still full of Orrian undead making it an unlikely place for a bunch of passivists to go.

I find it incredibly unlikely that Ventari and his tablet is what kept the pale tree from becoming a blighting tree. Her freedom had to have come from elsewhere, otherwise we could reason with Dragon minions, but this is not the case. Though the Tablet likely had a huge impact on the Pale Tree’s outlook on the world and It would be interesting to know if she might have been more violent without Ventari’s influence.

Didnt we find the scepter of orr already in gw1? And then it got lost with the Lich kn the Ember Island chain. I did hear livia git it now, but i dont think it ever found its way back to orr, hardly considering it sank i doubt anyone would go there

We found the scepter in Kryta, gave it to the Khilbron and it was lost after we killed Khilbron in the Ring of Fire, but the cut scene specifically showed it being teleported away before the volcano erupted. In the epilogue of Eye of the North we see Livia finding it, and I thought I remembered reading that she found it in Orr, but I do not have a source on that.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Livia mentions that she’s planning to go to Orr at the end of War in Kryta, IIRC. It’s not explicit on whether she found it there or whether she just picked up the trail there, though. We’re shown a cinematic of her finding it in a swampy location, but it was originally found in a Krytan tomb – the point to which it teleports to might not be in Orr.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

It was at the end of Eye of the North, she mentions planning to go to Arah. But as said, it’s not explicit for where Livia found the Scepter of Orr (nor is it explicit that said trip ever panned out). We just know she spent some time in Orr (where in Orr is unknown), had found the Scepter of Orr (where she found it is unknown), and didn’t have it for a long time, but while she did have it she studied it intensely.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: azureai.9764

azureai.9764

Alternatively, the Grove proves able to stalemate the conflict. In this scenario, a desperate Pale Tree might be motivated to willingly enter Mordremoth’s service in exchange for her survival and the survival of her children. Again, Destiny’s Edge and the Pact as we know them do not exist.

I think this scenario is the more interesting storytelling narrative. If you were to send a character to an alternative timeline, this would be a more compelling world where your character could learn more before (hopefully) going back to the standard Tyria.