Guild Wars 2

I must have missed a huge part of the story, but as I recall playing a human in GW1 I seemed to have spent a LOT of time killing Charr who were destroying my home?

So why now are we all buddy-buddy?

Because Charr won?

Because it’s been 250 years, the charr have overthrown their Flame Legion overlords, and the two races now have a peace treaty that have groups on both sides trying to undermine the treaty and re-ignite the war. Yes, you missed pretty much ALL of the story.

As for destroying your home, technically humans destroyed the charrs’ home first, so after hundreds of years of back-and-forth, they’re calling it a draw.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lore

Well that’s interesting.

I like the flame legion though. I want quests that involve destroying humans.

AstralDusk.1670:

Because it’s been 250 years, the charr have overthrown their Flame Legion overlords, and the two races now have a peace treaty that have groups on both sides trying to undermine the treaty and re-ignite the war. Yes, you missed pretty much ALL of the story.

As for destroying your home, technically humans destroyed the charrs’ home first, so after hundreds of years of back-and-forth, they’re calling it a draw.

Pretty much this. The Ascalon area originally belonged to the Charr long before the the humans took it over.

In any case maybe the OP hasn’t made it far enough into the story to reach ebon hawk and learn about the Queen and the treaty with the charr yet.

On second thought. Ebon Hawk wasn’t part of my personal story (which is odd because it’s one of the coolest looking cities/areas in the game) as a charr, you just have to go there to learn about it. You also get hints about it when Logan is near and doing the story missions for dungeons.

P.S. Visit Gwens grave while you’re there. I did as a charr and it felt like sacrilege.

Wait, we’re buddy buddy withe the charr? Does that mean I shouldn’t have sent the flea collars to Butcher’s Block?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Wait, we’re buddy buddy withe the charr? Does that mean I shouldn’t have sent the flea collars to Butcher’s Block?

Not buddy buddy really. They just have a treaty to work together against the dragons. The charr and humans still hate each other very much. They just realize that if they don’t work together the dragons will likely kill everyone.

Are you missing something? Yes, a truckload of lore. I suggest you read about it as writing the full story in a forum post would be the equivalent of writing a wiki page (something that already exists).

Gasoline.2570:

Because Charr won?

The Flame Legion won, the Charr (as a race) rely on no one but themselves and as such have no right to take credit because the majority of the power behind the flame legion was not theirs. As much as they claim to be so great, they charr never accomplished anything without help from otherworldly powers. They’ve spent the last 200 years attempting to beat down the walls of a single city (ebonhawke) and failed in spite of superior numbers and technology. Frankly, the Charr are sissies.

Conncept.7638:

Gasoline.2570:

Because Charr won?

The Flame Legion won, the Charr (as a race) rely on no one but themselves and as such have no right to take credit because the majority of the power behind the flame legion was not theirs. As much as they claim to be so great, they charr never accomplished anything without help from otherworldly powers. They’ve spent the last 200 years attempting to beat down the walls of a single city (ebonhawke) and failed in spite of superior numbers and technology. Frankly, the Charr are sissies.

And then they go and cry about how Rurik cowardly snuck behind their lines and used Stormcaller on them.
Never mind that they have an entire legion devoted to covert activities and they had basically destroyed the entire nation with the Searing prior to that.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Conncept.7638:

Gasoline.2570:

Because Charr won?

The Flame Legion won, the Charr (as a race) rely on no one but themselves and as such have no right to take credit because the majority of the power behind the flame legion was not theirs. As much as they claim to be so great, they charr never accomplished anything without help from otherworldly powers. They’ve spent the last 200 years attempting to beat down the walls of a single city (ebonhawke) and failed in spite of superior numbers and technology. Frankly, the Charr are sissies.

And then they go and cry about how Rurik cowardly snuck behind their lines and used Stormcaller on them.
Never mind that they have an entire legion devoted to covert activities and they had basically destroyed the entire nation with the Searing prior to that.

Mind you, most of that was when the Flame Legion was in control of their society and the shaman caste had a lot riding on their worship of their gods. And as we’re all aware, Flame Legion charr are certifiably insane.

It’d be so much more entertaining to get the Separtists aimed at the Flame Legion, so we could sit back and watch the fun.

I’d really love to have something akin to Ascalonian fractal, but from humans point of view. Currently the anti-human racism in this game really irritates me.

Isslair.4908:

I’d really love to have something akin to Ascalonian fractal, but from humans point of view. Currently the anti-human racism in this game really irritates me.

What anti-human racism? Humans just aren’t the center of the continent since the charr finally won semi-decisively in Ascalon, Elona and Cantha are cut off, and the other races moved into the neighborhood. With four other races, one of whom has had a rocky history with humankind in the past . . . is it surprising that humans aren’t the center of the world?

And consider, the asura look down on humans but they look down on everyone. Norn look down on humans only because they are not norn; they can still earn the right to be respected. Sylvari don’t CARE really, they’re very neutral on the racial politics. The centaurs have always been at odds with Krytans . . .

So, really, what we’re looking at? The charr don’t like humans very much, but they have reasons to. The centaurs hate humans but, again, they have a reason to. At least the charr are willing to say “screw it, fine, just don’t bother us anymore” and get on with the civil war against the Flame Legion.

AstralDusk.1670:

Because it’s been 250 years, the charr have overthrown their Flame Legion overlords, and the two races now have a peace treaty that have groups on both sides trying to undermine the treaty and re-ignite the war. Yes, you missed pretty much ALL of the story.

As for destroying your home, technically humans destroyed the charrs’ home first, so after hundreds of years of back-and-forth, they’re calling it a draw.

The Japanese might be congenial, but they have not forgotten hiroshima and nagasaki, and I do not forget ascalon.

The humans may have taken the land first, but they did not use WMD’s on civilian populations to do it.

I accept the idea of a peace treaty, but believe the charr fully deserve their perpetual war with the ghosts of the millions they’ve tortured and starved in the searing.

I laugh whenever Rhytlock gets pasted in dungeons, he thieves from the honored dead.

For one, shouldn’t this thread be in the Lore section?

Anyways, that aside as others have stated there’s plenty of NPC dialogue to show that, while there is a push for a peace treaty between Humans and Charr, there is certainly still tension between the two races.

As for the Peace, consider it a very pragmatic solution to the overwhelming problems each Race is currently facing. Without the Treaty, Kryta would be effectively entrenched in war with both the Centaurs on their doorstep AND supplying Ebon Hawk with the resources to combat the Charr advance on what’s left of their territory in Ascalon. NPC’s even comment on the exhorbitant cost of using Asura Portals for the war effort, yet alone the cost in lives and other valuable resources that could be better spent pushing back the Centaurs invading their homeland. Then of course there’s the rampant bandit problem that is heavily suggested to be linked to the White Mantle as well as the Caudacus attempting to usurp the throne and causing trouble as well, though I think it’s been suggested that he’s more interested in Power for himself than potentially linked to the White Mantle. Could be wrong on that one.

Secondly, the Charr are still bogged down in 4 military war efforts that consume money, resources, and manpower. Where before they were fighting Ebonhawke, the last human refuge in Ascalon and an effective thorn in their side. They also have to contend with the immortal ghosts of Ascalon who continually respawn to cause them trouble all across their territories in Ascalon near the wall. There’s also the Charr Civil War against the Flame Legion still attempting to dominate the Charr and reclaim their lost glory. And of course we can’t forget that since Kralkatorrik’s awakening, the Charr also have to work towards containing the corrupting influence of the Brand from spreading further. If they don’t, any victory they do achieve over getting Ascalon will be for nothing if the land turns into a large corrupted domain of the Crystal Dragon.

Even with the treaty though, the Charr and the Humans still have to spend resources trying to round up the last Renegades and Seperatists who want nothing more than to continue the war between Humanity and Charr. Further if the Gold Legion does regain control over the 3 High Legions, you can bet your bottom that they’ll throw out whatever Peace Treaty Jennah managed to put on the table and take another crack at World Domination.

So long story short, ending this conflict allows both Humans and Charr to put more resources in very real presents that exist on their doorstep. By pulling back Charr from the war against Ebonhawk, they free up supplies and men to better contain Ghosts and the Brand which loom very ominously over Charr lands and just north of the Ebonhawke. A peace between both, though not welcome with open arms by either party, is a clear and pragmatic decision to face decidely larger threats.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Humans just aren’t the center of the continent ..

It’s not about center. It’s about the whole attitude.

Ascalonian fractal – we kill humans, cliffside – we kill humans, who is the “failed” member of Destiny’s Edge – human, which race has virtually no presence in story missions – yup humans, etc.

I can understand the wish to stay away from the standard human-centric worlds in fantasy. But anet overdid it. By a lot.

Isslair.4908:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Humans just aren’t the center of the continent ..

It’s not about center. It’s about the whole attitude.

Ascalonian fractal – we kill humans, cliffside – we kill humans, who is the “failed” member of Destiny’s Edge – human, which race has virtually no presence in story missions – yup humans, etc.

I can understand the wish to stay away from the standard human-centric worlds in fantasy. But anet overdid it. By a lot.

And I’m glad. Because humans are generic as kitten. Have you been to queensdale? There is nothing I could describe human zones as with anything less than “extremely generic”.

Besides, I’m really not feeling what you’re saying. Humans are everywhere.

Writetyper.1985:

Isslair.4908:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Humans just aren’t the center of the continent ..

It’s not about center. It’s about the whole attitude.

Ascalonian fractal – we kill humans, cliffside – we kill humans, who is the “failed” member of Destiny’s Edge – human, which race has virtually no presence in story missions – yup humans, etc.

I can understand the wish to stay away from the standard human-centric worlds in fantasy. But anet overdid it. By a lot.

Because humans are generic as kitten. Have you been to queensdale? There is nothing I could describe human zones as with anything less than “extremely generic”.

Besides, I’m really not feeling what you’re saying. Humans are everywhere.

yes, because the asura lowbie zones are so very non-generic.

plasmacutter.2709:

Writetyper.1985:

Isslair.4908:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Humans just aren’t the center of the continent ..

It’s not about center. It’s about the whole attitude.

Ascalonian fractal – we kill humans, cliffside – we kill humans, who is the “failed” member of Destiny’s Edge – human, which race has virtually no presence in story missions – yup humans, etc.

I can understand the wish to stay away from the standard human-centric worlds in fantasy. But anet overdid it. By a lot.

Because humans are generic as kitten. Have you been to queensdale? There is nothing I could describe human zones as with anything less than “extremely generic”.

Besides, I’m really not feeling what you’re saying. Humans are everywhere.

yes, because the asura lowbie zones are so very non-generic.

Well… yeah. Sarcasm is pointless if it’s true.

Isslair.4908:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Humans just aren’t the center of the continent ..

It’s not about center. It’s about the whole attitude.

Ascalonian fractal – we kill humans, cliffside – we kill humans, who is the “failed” member of Destiny’s Edge – human, which race has virtually no presence in story missions – yup humans, etc.

I can understand the wish to stay away from the standard human-centric worlds in fantasy. But anet overdid it. By a lot.

And you’re overlooking a lot to lay this on anti-human sentiment.

Ascalonian Fractal – I’ll give you this one since it’s readily apparent it’s happening during one invasion of Ascalon. So, it was going to be the humans getting beaten up on, regardless. Spoiler alert, Ascalonians lose. They will always lose.

Cliffside, you’re killing cultists, isn’t that so? We did that a lot in Guild Wars 1. A LOT. We killed a cult leader, three . . . no, four times total that I’m aware of.

The failed member of Destiny’s Edge is . . . all of them. Logan left to choose duty over friendship, Snaff was killed (probably a bigger failure), Eir couldn’t keep things under control, Rytlock flat out quit, and Caithe is so broken by all of this she winds up sorely tempted to go to the Nightmare Court if the Dream is any indication.

And humans do have presence in story missions, but central? We’re talking about a story which was being crafted to get all the races together to go take on Zhaitan. I don’t think the asura got a big fragment either . . .

Of course, there was the attack on Lion’s Arch where asura were responsible for all kinds of crap going on. And the Sons of Svanir, who are also made into Icebrood, are mostly norn, and they’re a rather big danger. But, naturally, this also is anti-human sentiment because Lion’s Arch is . . . a multicultural hub for the civilized world.

Most of the people who are in the Order’s higher ranks are human. They also manage to be effective and useful.

Writetyper.1985:

plasmacutter.2709:

Writetyper.1985:

Isslair.4908:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Humans just aren’t the center of the continent ..

It’s not about center. It’s about the whole attitude.

Ascalonian fractal – we kill humans, cliffside – we kill humans, who is the “failed” member of Destiny’s Edge – human, which race has virtually no presence in story missions – yup humans, etc.

I can understand the wish to stay away from the standard human-centric worlds in fantasy. But anet overdid it. By a lot.

Because humans are generic as kitten. Have you been to queensdale? There is nothing I could describe human zones as with anything less than “extremely generic”.

Besides, I’m really not feeling what you’re saying. Humans are everywhere.

yes, because the asura lowbie zones are so very non-generic.

Well… yeah. Sarcasm is pointless if it’s true.

Please provide a survey of a significant portion of the playerbase which shows metrica is any less generic than queensdale.

The only thing I see are different architecture and more mechanical enemies.

plasmacutter.2709:

The humans may have taken the land first, but they did not use WMD’s on civilian populations to do it.

I present Exhibit B: The Foefire. The Ascalonians definitely did use a magical equivalent of a terror weapon on the charr. It’s so bad the ghosts continue to rise and can’t seem to be permanently destroyed in a broad enough way to achieve a pure victory.

Writetyper.1985:

Tyria in the Prophecies days was highly generic fantasy, a collision of several dozen cliches thrown into a blender and then someone hit “frappe”. Cantha and Elona had much better defined cultures, but Tyria? Boy did they get shafted . . . even the non-human races were very generic.

(Yes I included the charr. They were very fricking generic bad guys until someone got them some development in EOTN.)

plasmacutter.2709:

Writetyper.1985:

plasmacutter.2709:

Writetyper.1985:

Isslair.4908:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Humans just aren’t the center of the continent ..

It’s not about center. It’s about the whole attitude.

Ascalonian fractal – we kill humans, cliffside – we kill humans, who is the “failed” member of Destiny’s Edge – human, which race has virtually no presence in story missions – yup humans, etc.

I can understand the wish to stay away from the standard human-centric worlds in fantasy. But anet overdid it. By a lot.

Because humans are generic as kitten. Have you been to queensdale? There is nothing I could describe human zones as with anything less than “extremely generic”.

Besides, I’m really not feeling what you’re saying. Humans are everywhere.

yes, because the asura lowbie zones are so very non-generic.

Well… yeah. Sarcasm is pointless if it’s true.

Please provide a survey of a significant portion of the playerbase which shows metrica is any less generic than queensdale.

The only thing I see are different architecture and more mechanical enemies.

“Please provide a survey for every opinion posted on forums to prove said opinion”

No, use common sense. Look at it. It’s 100% some generic medieval town. Every single generic RPG is set in something like that. Generic medieval architecture. Generic landscape. Generic medieval NPCS. Generic missions (Help the farmers to farm!). Generic weapons, generic dialogue and generic enemies. You’d have to be insane to call a jungle with high tech diminutive geniuses and advanced technical triangular architecture, in a fantasy game, generic.

Humans are just humans. If I wanted to see humans I’d go kittening anywhere. It’s boring to see humans in a major role unless they’re an extremely well developed character. This is why major FPS games often have their characters described as boring and undeveloped, because it’s some “grim and edgy guy with a history in the army who makes funny one-liners”. We’ve literally seen it all before, in one cliche or another.

Maybe if the main humans were canthan or elonan? That’s cool, a bit exotic, a bit off the beaten path. But no. Krytans are like literally every other human country from generic fantasy games or movies.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

The humans may have taken the land first, but they did not use WMD’s on civilian populations to do it.

I present Exhibit B: The Foefire. The Ascalonians definitely did use a magical equivalent of a terror weapon on the charr. It’s so bad the ghosts continue to rise and can’t seem to be permanently destroyed in a broad enough way to achieve a pure victory.

It would not have happened had the charr not “nuked” the area, men, women, children, and elders, with burning crystals, killing millions, burning the crops and rendering the land un-arable, sentencing the unlucky survivors to perpetual famine.

The foefire was a final, desperate act of vengeance by a doomed king and people, and continues to mete justice to this day on a race which chose the most dishonorable of combat methods.

The plight the charr face is the hand of karma.

No, use common sense. Look at it. It’s 100% some generic medieval town. Every single generic RPG is set in something like that.

The phantasy star series had nothing like that, nor mass effect, nor swtor… and on and on.

plasmacutter.2709:

No, use common sense. Look at it. It’s 100% some generic medieval town. Every single generic RPG is set in something like that.

The phantasy star series had nothing like that.

What you just said means nothing, star wars has nothing like that either. I’ve never played it, in that case it sounds like it’s not very generic?

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

The humans may have taken the land first, but they did not use WMD’s on civilian populations to do it.

I present Exhibit B: The Foefire. The Ascalonians definitely did use a magical equivalent of a terror weapon on the charr. It’s so bad the ghosts continue to rise and can’t seem to be permanently destroyed in a broad enough way to achieve a pure victory.

It would not have happened had the charr not “nuked” the area, men, women, children, and elders, with burning crystals, killing millions, burning the crops and rendering the land un-arable, sentencing the unlucky survivors to perpetual famine.

The foefire was a final, desperate act of vengeance by a doomed king and people, and continues to mete justice to this day.

The plight the charr face is the hand of karma.

I suppose you could look at it like that . . . but if we’re going to be completely honest? The Foefire counts as I labeled it, the motivation behind it being used or the fact “the charr did it first” doesn’t excuse it.

Please note, I do like the humans in this game. I just noticed even way back in the ages before it was called “Guild Wars: Prophecies” that King Adelbern was a lil . . . cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

The humans may have taken the land first, but they did not use WMD’s on civilian populations to do it.

I present Exhibit B: The Foefire. The Ascalonians definitely did use a magical equivalent of a terror weapon on the charr. It’s so bad the ghosts continue to rise and can’t seem to be permanently destroyed in a broad enough way to achieve a pure victory.

It would not have happened had the charr not “nuked” the area, men, women, children, and elders, with burning crystals, killing millions, burning the crops and rendering the land un-arable, sentencing the unlucky survivors to perpetual famine.

The foefire was a final, desperate act of vengeance by a doomed king and people, and continues to mete justice to this day.

The plight the charr face is the hand of karma.

I suppose you could look at it like that . . . but if we’re going to be completely honest? The Foefire counts as I labeled it, the motivation behind it being used or the fact “the charr did it first” doesn’t excuse it.

Please note, I do like the humans in this game. I just noticed even way back in the ages before it was called “Guild Wars: Prophecies” that King Adelbern was a lil . . . cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

The reality was this:
The land was rendered hostile to human life, the charr were breaking down the doors. The ascalonians were already walking-dead. The question was not whether they would continue and survive, the question was how many of these dirty, honorless scum would they take with them on their way out.

The foefire was a stroke of genius, it reaches out from the grave to insure the charr always know the suffering they inflicted. I suspect it will continue until the consciousness of the entire charr society turns from its arrogance and learns remorse.

This includes not plundering the graves of the fallen (Rhytlock). You never see humans plunder charr graves.

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

The humans may have taken the land first, but they did not use WMD’s on civilian populations to do it.

I present Exhibit B: The Foefire. The Ascalonians definitely did use a magical equivalent of a terror weapon on the charr. It’s so bad the ghosts continue to rise and can’t seem to be permanently destroyed in a broad enough way to achieve a pure victory.

It would not have happened had the charr not “nuked” the area, men, women, children, and elders, with burning crystals, killing millions, burning the crops and rendering the land un-arable, sentencing the unlucky survivors to perpetual famine.

The foefire was a final, desperate act of vengeance by a doomed king and people, and continues to mete justice to this day.

The plight the charr face is the hand of karma.

I suppose you could look at it like that . . . but if we’re going to be completely honest? The Foefire counts as I labeled it, the motivation behind it being used or the fact “the charr did it first” doesn’t excuse it.

Please note, I do like the humans in this game. I just noticed even way back in the ages before it was called “Guild Wars: Prophecies” that King Adelbern was a lil . . . cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

The reality was this:
The land was rendered hostile to human life, the charr were breaking down the doors. The ascalonians were already walking-dead. The question was not whether they would continue and survive, the question was how many of these dirty, honorless scum would they take with them on their way out.

The foefire was a stroke of genius, it reaches out from the grave to insure the charr always know the suffering they inflicted. I suspect it will continue until the consciousness of the entire charr society turns from its arrogance and learns remorse.

I’m not denying it was important, just saying if you look at it objectively, from outside either the charr or the human sides’ perspectives? Terror weapon almost on the order of the Searing Cauldrons. (By the way, since we turned around and used one . . . what does that say about the Pact? . . .)

Actually, an end condition is somewhat known, and it was supposed to involve the twin to King Adelbern’s sword (wielded by Prince Rurik) arriving and somehow it would allow the King to go to his rest knowing his final retribution was not in vain. Only problem is that Rytlock has it, and he’s not giving it up. Also seeing it in the hands of a charr kind of made King Adelbern flip his crown.

This includes not plundering the graves of the fallen (Rhytlock). You never see humans plunder charr graves.

. . . the charr are plundering the graves? I was under the impression they’re there to try beating down the ghosts until they go quiet. And that nobody is supposed to go into the Ascalonian Catacombs – Rytlock goes in there to stop Eir from meddling about since she doesn’t know enough about the Foefire ghosts.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ascalonians lose. They will always lose.

The problem is – it’s the only place in a game where we’re forced to join one single race and kill another race. And coincidently it’s humans we’re up against.
Are there fractals where you’re transformed into humans to kill charr? Exactly.
And no – norns don’t count cause they’re already corrupted and that’s like killing risen.

Cliffside, you’re killing cultists, isn’t that so?

They’re humans. I wouldn’t say anything if there were other races among cultists. Are there? No, cause this game is explicitly anti-huamn.
And I don’t care ‘bout gw1, we’re talking about GW2 here.

all of them

Nope they’re ain’t. Others are a regular heroes with some drama prblems. Logan is a deliberate joke from anet, see “Retreat” and “Save Yourselves!”.

And humans do have presence in story missions

Granted, I haven’t finished the Whispers story yet, but in Priory and Vigil all I see are norns, charrs, sylvari, asuras. No humans with some actual dialogue lines and significant roles.
Vigil – it’s about charr and norns. Priory – sylvari and asuras all the way (with some strange charrs added in). “All races together” mah kitten.

Most of the people who are in the Order’s higher ranks are human. They also manage to be effective and useful.

Not in a meaningful way. In actual story missions it’s all about charr tanks, asuran demolitionists, sylvari scouts and norn hunters.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

The humans may have taken the land first, but they did not use WMD’s on civilian populations to do it.

I present Exhibit B: The Foefire. The Ascalonians definitely did use a magical equivalent of a terror weapon on the charr. It’s so bad the ghosts continue to rise and can’t seem to be permanently destroyed in a broad enough way to achieve a pure victory.

It would not have happened had the charr not “nuked” the area, men, women, children, and elders, with burning crystals, killing millions, burning the crops and rendering the land un-arable, sentencing the unlucky survivors to perpetual famine.

The foefire was a final, desperate act of vengeance by a doomed king and people, and continues to mete justice to this day.

The plight the charr face is the hand of karma.

I suppose you could look at it like that . . . but if we’re going to be completely honest? The Foefire counts as I labeled it, the motivation behind it being used or the fact “the charr did it first” doesn’t excuse it.

Please note, I do like the humans in this game. I just noticed even way back in the ages before it was called “Guild Wars: Prophecies” that King Adelbern was a lil . . . cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

The reality was this:
The land was rendered hostile to human life, the charr were breaking down the doors. The ascalonians were already walking-dead. The question was not whether they would continue and survive, the question was how many of these dirty, honorless scum would they take with them on their way out.

The foefire was a stroke of genius, it reaches out from the grave to insure the charr always know the suffering they inflicted. I suspect it will continue until the consciousness of the entire charr society turns from its arrogance and learns remorse.

I’m not denying it was important, just saying if you look at it objectively, from outside either the charr or the human sides’ perspectives? Terror weapon almost on the order of the Searing Cauldrons. (By the way, since we turned around and used one . . . what does that say about the Pact? . . .)

Actually, an end condition is somewhat known, and it was supposed to involve the twin to King Adelbern’s sword (wielded by Prince Rurik) arriving and somehow it would allow the King to go to his rest knowing his final retribution was not in vain. Only problem is that Rytlock has it, and he’s not giving it up. Also seeing it in the hands of a charr kind of made King Adelbern flip his crown.

My point exactly.

Even today, the charr deserve their fate of perpetual war with the ghosts of those they’ve already tortured and slain.

Since they seem to have no conscience, Adelberne gave them one obstinate enough to keep reminding them until, perhaps another 250 years from now, they get the hint. (that even in war, there are some places you just DON’T go)

Isslair.4908:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ascalonians lose. They will always lose.

The problem is – it’s the only place in a game where we’re forced to join one single race and kill another race. And coincidently it’s humans we’re up against.
Are there fractals where you’re transformed into humans to kill charr? Exactly.
And no – norns don’t count cause they’re already corrupted and that’s like killing risen.

It wouldn’t matter if you were humans defending the city, the end result is going to be: “retreat to save yourselves or die in a blaze of glory”. I also find it odd that you forgot the strange fractal which looks somewhat like a Rata Sum-like structure having been left in ruins. The fractals hate on more than just the humans.

Cliffside, you’re killing cultists, isn’t that so?

They’re humans. I wouldn’t say anything if there were other races among cultists. Are there? No, cause this game is explicitly anti-huamn.
And I don’t care ‘bout gw1, we’re talking about GW2 here.

You should care about GW1. That’s where this whole thing started, mind you.
Now, honestly? You can’t use an argument result to satisfy proof for the argument. “You’re beating up on humans because the game hates humans. Therefore this is proof that the game hates humans, because you are beating up on humans.”

That is like this: In Kryta you are encouraged to beat up on centaurs who are attacking the human settlements trying to push the centaurs out from their old lands. Therefore the game supports human supremacy, because humans are trying to push out the centaurs and the game supports it.

all of them

Nope they’re ain’t. Others are a regular heroes with some drama prblems. Logan is a deliberate joke from anet, see “Retreat” and “Save Yourselves!”.

What am I looking at for those? They’re skills, one for a Warrior, one for a Guardian, both shouts which used to be used on builds using Warriors in GW1 due to the fact “Save Yourselves!” was considerably overpowered some of the time. Logan would probably be a Paragon (like his ancestor) if such a class existed in GW2, as he just about fits the bill.

And humans do have presence in story missions

Granted, I haven’t finished the Whispers story yet, but in Priory and Vigil all I see are norns, charrs, sylvari, asuras. No humans with some actual dialogue lines and significant roles.
Vigil – it’s about charr and norns. Priory – sylvari and asuras all the way (with some strange charrs added in). “All races together” mah kitten.

Most of the people who are in the Order’s higher ranks are human. They also manage to be effective and useful.

Not in a meaningful way. In actual story missions it’s all about charr tanks, asuran demolitionists, sylvari scouts and norn hunters.

You do need to actually check out the Whispers storyline. The main mentor is a charr, but not your typical charr. You deal with a human internal matter to open it up. Most of the higher ups you talk with are humans, including Riel Darkwater.

I haven’t checked out the other two, but I know that the Priory was founded at least in part by a human (Durmand the Historian) so you have human influence there . . . even if there’s more active asura (which shouldn’t surprise you since the Priory is about research and knowledge).

And the Vigil was founded by a charr . . . so saying there’s not many humans in there doesn’t seem surprising. Norn? The charr respect the norn ever since they were pushed out of Bjora Marches :P

plasmacutter.2709:

AstralDusk.1670:

Because it’s been 250 years, the charr have overthrown their Flame Legion overlords, and the two races now have a peace treaty that have groups on both sides trying to undermine the treaty and re-ignite the war. Yes, you missed pretty much ALL of the story.

As for destroying your home, technically humans destroyed the charrs’ home first, so after hundreds of years of back-and-forth, they’re calling it a draw.

The Japanese might be congenial, but they have not forgotten hiroshima and nagasaki, and I do not forget ascalon.

The humans may have taken the land first, but they did not use WMD’s on civilian populations to do it.

I accept the idea of a peace treaty, but believe the charr fully deserve their perpetual war with the ghosts of the millions they’ve tortured and starved in the searing.

I laugh whenever Rhytlock gets pasted in dungeons, he thieves from the honored dead.

Okay, well, that’s actually a heavily prejudiced viewpoint, and the Japan analogy is faulty. The charr nation that exists now is heavily opposed and mostly ashamed of the charr nation that destroyed Ascalon, so the analogy would only work if America had revolted, set up an entirely new nation, and Japan still held -that- new country responsible. The whole point of the current human/charr tension is that each side is trying to remind themselves that what happened in the past was done by different nations, different cultures, different generations. All human/charr conflict at this point is vestigial racism.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It wouldn’t matter if you were humans defending the city, the end result is going to be: “retreat to save yourselves or die in a blaze of glory”.

Yeah, because this whole Ascalon fractal is really stupid.
Not only it is racist against humans, it also forces itself on player.
You’re suddenly transformed into a charr and forced to kill innocent kinsmen (not some crazed monsters or corrupted beings). It’s really horrible from any point of view.

I also find it odd that you forgot the strange fractal which looks somewhat like a Rata Sum-like structure having been left in ruins.

What of it? Harpies are just generic mobs. A single raving asura who doesn’t even die in the end? Really?

“You’re beating up on humans because the game hates humans. Therefore this is proof that the game hates humans, because you are beating up on humans.”

There are TWO fractals devoted solely to killing humans. There are NONE fractals devoted to killing any other playable races (corrupted norns are basically risen, so one can’t count that).
Plain and simple.

The main mentor is a charr

Yeah, kinda proves my point.
Humans, of all races, have the least screen time in GW2. And the most they can hope to be – is some random lionsguard dying to risen mob on Claw Island.

Isslair.4908:

The main mentor is a charr

Yeah, kinda proves my point.
Humans, of all races, have the least screen time in GW2. And the most they can hope to be – is some random lionsguard dying to risen mob on Claw Island.

Or, you know, Commander of the Pact, there’s that. Oh, and heading the Order of Whispers? There’s that too.

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

The humans may have taken the land first, but they did not use WMD’s on civilian populations to do it.

I present Exhibit B: The Foefire. The Ascalonians definitely did use a magical equivalent of a terror weapon on the charr. It’s so bad the ghosts continue to rise and can’t seem to be permanently destroyed in a broad enough way to achieve a pure victory.

It would not have happened had the charr not “nuked” the area, men, women, children, and elders, with burning crystals, killing millions, burning the crops and rendering the land un-arable, sentencing the unlucky survivors to perpetual famine.

The foefire was a final, desperate act of vengeance by a doomed king and people, and continues to mete justice to this day.

The plight the charr face is the hand of karma.

I suppose you could look at it like that . . . but if we’re going to be completely honest? The Foefire counts as I labeled it, the motivation behind it being used or the fact “the charr did it first” doesn’t excuse it.

Please note, I do like the humans in this game. I just noticed even way back in the ages before it was called “Guild Wars: Prophecies” that King Adelbern was a lil . . . cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

The reality was this:
The land was rendered hostile to human life, the charr were breaking down the doors. The ascalonians were already walking-dead. The question was not whether they would continue and survive, the question was how many of these dirty, honorless scum would they take with them on their way out.

The foefire was a stroke of genius, it reaches out from the grave to insure the charr always know the suffering they inflicted. I suspect it will continue until the consciousness of the entire charr society turns from its arrogance and learns remorse.

This includes not plundering the graves of the fallen (Rhytlock). You never see humans plunder charr graves.

Why do you assume that Rhytlock ‘plundered’ a grave to gain Sohothin?

Rhytlock never mentions where he got Sohothin. The only lore reference to him plundering it is in Logan’s accusations, which given his prejudiced views on Charr at the beginning of Destiney’s edge, doesn’t really give them any weight.

Also, you seem to have totally overlooked (the human) Dougal Keane who is quiet famous for his involvement in plundering graves, and not just those of humans.

Having said that Dougal Keane is also very instrumental in the forging of the alliance between Humans and Charr. Shame he is resigned to bumming around in Lion’s Arch these days.

I’m also finding it hard to believe that you’re suggesting genocide (the foefire). Is more justifiable than the Charr turning to higher powers (the titans), and committing the searing, to gain lands that were once theirs. The Humans weren’t native to Tyria. They pushed the Charr/Centaur/Grawl etc. out of their own lands.

The humans ARE the bad guys in Tyria.

Pants.8315:

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

The humans may have taken the land first, but they did not use WMD’s on civilian populations to do it.

I present Exhibit B: The Foefire. The Ascalonians definitely did use a magical equivalent of a terror weapon on the charr. It’s so bad the ghosts continue to rise and can’t seem to be permanently destroyed in a broad enough way to achieve a pure victory.

It would not have happened had the charr not “nuked” the area, men, women, children, and elders, with burning crystals, killing millions, burning the crops and rendering the land un-arable, sentencing the unlucky survivors to perpetual famine.

The foefire was a final, desperate act of vengeance by a doomed king and people, and continues to mete justice to this day.

The plight the charr face is the hand of karma.

I suppose you could look at it like that . . . but if we’re going to be completely honest? The Foefire counts as I labeled it, the motivation behind it being used or the fact “the charr did it first” doesn’t excuse it.

Please note, I do like the humans in this game. I just noticed even way back in the ages before it was called “Guild Wars: Prophecies” that King Adelbern was a lil . . . cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

The reality was this:
The land was rendered hostile to human life, the charr were breaking down the doors. The ascalonians were already walking-dead. The question was not whether they would continue and survive, the question was how many of these dirty, honorless scum would they take with them on their way out.

The foefire was a stroke of genius, it reaches out from the grave to insure the charr always know the suffering they inflicted. I suspect it will continue until the consciousness of the entire charr society turns from its arrogance and learns remorse.

This includes not plundering the graves of the fallen (Rhytlock). You never see humans plunder charr graves.

Why do you assume that Rhytlock ‘plundered’ a grave to gain Sohothin?

Rhytlock never mentions where he got Sohothin. The only lore reference to him plundering it is in Logan’s accusations, which given his prejudiced views on Charr at the beginning of Destiney’s edge, doesn’t really give them any weight.

Also, you seem to have totally overlooked (the human) Dougal Keane who is quiet famous for his involvement in plundering graves, and not just those of humans.

Having said that Dougal Keane is also very instrumental in the forging of the alliance between Humans and Charr. Shame he is resigned to bumming around in Lion’s Arch these days.

Rytlock got it before meeting Logan, who let him keep it as a sign of their brotherhood . . . which means it’s a sore spot between the two (like most everything else). Where did it come from? I don’t know how he got it but . . .

Rurik died in the Ring of Fire, so unless the sword was lost in the Frost Gate where he died, it’s unknown how the sword made it back to the mainland.

The Foefire was a terrible act done by a ruthless, bitter, insane king. He knew he could not win. He knew he could not hand his crown down to his son. He knew that his army would route, and fail to uphold their duty to the crown. So in his bitterness he executed his entire nation in order create for himself a fully reliable army that would not die, would not lose morale, and would not betray him. It would be like France turning every civilian into a cyborg in order to halt the German invasion in WWII. It is an act of genocide, and no matter the situation it is inherently evil. No one that every played GW1 could look at King Adlebern’s actions late in the story and say that he wasn’t wrong. My Guild Wars 1 Ascalonian would have fought the king in order to save what lives he could and attempt to retreat to Ebonhawke (remembering that there were exits into the catacombs).

Now I’m not saying that the Charr were right in performing the Searing, or that they deserved their land back. What I am saying is that old rivalries need to end. War is an endless cycle that makes monsters on both sides.

Now your problem with the Whispers story has absolutely no footing. Yes there is 1 charr who is your mentor, but the entire rest of the story has to deal with Minister Caudecus, his daughter, members of the ministry, human members of the Order of Whispers, etc. I am pretty sure that the overwhelming number of humans involved overrule the one charr that is. I also want to note that one of the Preceptors (leaders) of the Order of Whispers is a human, and without giving up too much info so is the Master of Whispers (Ultimate Leader).

Fractals are histories/futures. The point that Tobias was trying to make is that in the Asura fractal they don’t even give the asura a fighting chance. Their entire city is in shambles, and there is only one remaining being. So yes you have to fight the humans in the ascalonian fractal, but that is the way history happened. And yes you have to fight humans in the Colossus, but in all honesty, my GW1 character killed more humans than any other race. GW1 was, in all honesty, the most anti-human game, not GW2. You see in GW1 humanity reigned, then out of nowhere two of the civilizations were destroyed, and the third became controlled by an evil magical race. In GW2 the humans are struggling, but they are standing on their own two feet. They were fighting tooth and nail against one of the most technologically advanced races, and they won based on the fact that their foe gave up. Humanity is in pain, but they are THE most tenacious race on the face of Tyria. They will never give up, they will never surrender, and I don’t care if the combined force of the Sylvari, Norn, Charr, and Asura fall on them, they will find a way to survive.

But I don’t like the charr….They made it so we cant wear capes in this game =(

Another thing to note, since GW2 humanity has actually made a little bit of growth as a nation, much like the others. I mean sure between both games we lost contact with cantha, which is entirely human because they wiped the floor with any other races, and Elona, which was sadly lost to a lich (human lich). Sure Ascalon was finally lost between the stories, but you have to admit that slippery slope began in GW1 not GW2. But other races have had losses between the stories as well. At least the humans didn’t have an Elder Dragon come through and ravage their homelands (noting that the dragonbrand was created when the region was entirely under charr control). The Norn lost all of their homelands to Jormag.

Humanity has certain advantages over the other races that are very noticeable throughout the game. Humanity favors wisdom over the pursuit of knowledge, unlike the asura, which is why the asura have so many fatal accidents with their experiments. Humanity has much history with the world which gives them a distinct advantage against the sylvari who are new, and though they aren’t naive, their lack of knowledge has gotten them into tough situations. Humanity has been on the losing side of a war with one of the most brutal armies in Tyria which has given them a distinct advantage when it comes to defense, tactics, and, interestingly enough, it has given them an advantage in siege warfare. And lastly, they have a major advantage to the norn in the fact that they can put away their own personal legend in order to work together to do greater things.

Now my first post may have been out of line in saying that humanity could/would survive a combined assault by all the races, but what I meant was honestly simple. Humanity has a hundred smaller attributes that when pieced together makes them just as strong, and possibly stronger, than any of the other races out there.

Methal.9045:

But I don’t like the charr….They made it so we cant wear capes in this game =(

I’m pretty sure that thiefs are what made capes disappear from this game, not charr.

Narcemus.1348:

Methal.9045:

But I don’t like the charr….They made it so we cant wear capes in this game =(

I’m pretty sure that thiefs are what made capes disappear from this game, not charr.

really and for true? how so?

The theif’s weapons skills have them jumping up and down and all around making all kinds of issues with the cape. I think it’s more of an issue than like a tail coming through the cape anyways.

plasmacutter.2709:

AstralDusk.1670:

Because it’s been 250 years, the charr have overthrown their Flame Legion overlords, and the two races now have a peace treaty that have groups on both sides trying to undermine the treaty and re-ignite the war. Yes, you missed pretty much ALL of the story.

As for destroying your home, technically humans destroyed the charrs’ home first, so after hundreds of years of back-and-forth, they’re calling it a draw.

The Japanese might be congenial, but they have not forgotten hiroshima and nagasaki, and I do not forget ascalon.

The humans may have taken the land first, but they did not use WMD’s on civilian populations to do it.

I accept the idea of a peace treaty, but believe the charr fully deserve their perpetual war with the ghosts of the millions they’ve tortured and starved in the searing.

I laugh whenever Rhytlock gets pasted in dungeons, he thieves from the honored dead.

humans also decided to do the equivalent of saying “well looks like we’re losing, time to pour radioactive waste on this place so nothing can live here”

and let’s not forget that the humans did this on the word of a god who’s one thought is “cause more war” and who pussied out and ran away as soon as the dragons woke up

and now the humans are getting attacked by the centaur, a race they stole the lands of and tried to enslave.

honestly, humans are no better than krait, except krait are actually native to tyria, so wait, they’re WORSE than krait, they’re pretty much alien invaders

Lolwat? Saying every human enslaved centaurs is kind of like saying that every human is responsible for the Foefire. The thing about humans in the game (kind of like real life) is that they’re kind of a lot of them, and though I won’t defend Adelberns crimes, you can’t really judge the peasants, knights, and others who died in the Foefire and turned into twisted caricatures of themselves for what happened.

Likewise, you can’t really say all Humans enslaved centaurs when in reality, the only humans who have been historically documented doing that was the nation of Kourna. Similar to how Humans enslaved centaurs, humans also helped to free those centaurs. So what are we? Saviours or slavers in this black and white world of yours.

But since we’re going on about everybody’s sins, lets please not forget the entire effects of the Searing. Not only did the Charr nuke an entire kingdom, but they showed in that one moment of time that their desire was not purely to regain the land they had lost. Their armies swept south into Orr, which eventually lead to the Cataclysm (an event that would not have happened had the Vizier not been pressured to do something about the huge army on the Orrian doorstep) but they also marched over the Shiverpeaks and almost destroyed Kryta. Last I checked, the Charr didn’t have any claims to either of those countries, but hell why not right? What’s a few thousand slaughtered humans if it means more land, eh?

Also since you know, we’re using Adelbern’s sins to paint all of humanity black that means we cannot overlook the Searing or its ramifications just because the Gold Legion were in charge. I mean, if we’re going to judge entire races by their leadership, then this is technically how you have to do it.

Unfortunately for this way of thinking, you can’t judge entire nations by their leaders. The entire point of these moments is that these leaders were driven to the edge of madness and desperation. Was Adelbern wrong in what he did? Of course, but why did he do it? Narcemus touched on it, but I don’t think he followed through enough. Adelbern had lost everything. Think about it. He lost his son, his heir, but more than that he lost a good portion of his kingdom to the migration, he lost the faith of his people. What’s more, when the Charr were finally at his doorstep, in his eyes he had lost his Kingdom as well. He was a man with nothing left to lose. I always saw Adelberns descent into madness, and it was madness, a sad story, watching everything get stripped away from this man who in the end only wanted to defend his homeland. And that’s what it was, it was his homeland. The Charr can say the same thing all they want, but Adelbern and all the Ascalonians who died there were also born there.

These issues were never meant to be black and white, especially with humanity. Humanity in the game has spawned some of the greatest villains. From Vizier Khilbron (who has arguably killed almost as many Orrians as the Charr), to Shiro and Varesh and Joko. However Humanity has also had some of the greatest heroes in the game as well, and to judge them only by their villains is a slight to every player who took part in Tyria’s history 250 years ago.

You know, I never noticed, but humanity is about the only race whose racial enemy isn’t entirely black an white. I mean Sons of Svanir and Nightmare Courtiers are explained as being completely corrupted and unable to be brought back, from my understanding. And the Flame Legion is very power hungry as are the Inquest. I have honestly only ever seen human bandits ever second guessing their decisions to join their faction. Humanity has never been black and white, they have always been multiple shades of grey.

I also wanna say that I mentioned what you said in your second paragraph. “War is an endless cycle that makes monsters on both sides.” It’s like saying the philistines or the Israelites deserve Israel, the only thing that will come of it is more warfare, and in the end all that comes from it is death on both sides, and people willing to go to the side of evil to get what they want.

Pants.8315:

I’m also finding it hard to believe that you’re suggesting genocide (the foefire). Is more justifiable than the Charr turning to higher powers (the titans), and committing the searing, to gain lands that were once theirs.

The Charr ate, worked to death or killed for sport every human they captured. GW1, especially the bonus mission pack, made that clear. GW2 reinforced the stupidity of surrendering to the Charr. The Charr conquered a lot of human land, but where are the human descendants of the slaves they took?. Surrender was never an option. The Charr would have killed every human the Foefire did, anyway. The Foefire killed people that were about to be butchered, be worked to death or suffer other atrocity and it killed a military force. The Searing destroyed everything – the civilians, the towns, the forests, the fields – everything. Rytlock complained that Aldeburn would not surrender, but, let’s face it, the Charr never gave them that option. The Foefire was like the victim shooting the killer as the victim dies.