Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone, I am going to present you my arguments supporting my theory about Anise being Livia.

First of all, yes, Livia is a necromancer. But she claimed to learn necromancy in a short time by working with Gadd. This indicates that a profession can be learned, not only to be born with. Video source

In 1080AE, Livia has been promoted to the leader of the Shining Blade (which means she became Master Exemplar, this is the title of their leader, although in Sea of Sorrows people called her a normal exemplar, which is strange, or maybe just a cosmetic mistake).
In 1256AE, Livia appeared to survive all these years, probably by the powerful magic of Scepter of Orr, or maybe sacrificing her soul for immortality. What is very disturbing – she was still the personal bodyguard of current Krytan monarch. Also, very important thing to mention – she was able to magically maintain her youthful appearance, indicating that she posessed mesmer skills. Livia has a narrow-minded devotion to the continuation of Queen Salma’s bloodline, no matter the means.

So basically, Livia probably guarded every Krytan king/queen throughout hundreds of years, proving what she said: “I would sacrifice myself ten times over, if it would protect my people”

And now the quotes Anise said at human personal story!
“Ruthless and efficient, eh? You remind me of …someone.” – Obvious reffer to Gadd (Look at this video)
“You have the LUXURY to do as you please, whereas I am BOUND by my duty to the queen.” – Sounds like a lich who sacrified her soul for a price – defending Krytan royal bloodline for eternity.
“Ah, understanding that shows true wisdom.” – after player character said “I can’t change my decision.” – That sounds like a lich who discovered this after selling her soul.

I couldnt find the quote where Anise claimed to be personal bodyguard of previous monarch, Jennah’s father, although I’m sure she said it. I wont let this go without any evidence, though. Jennah said “Anise has been my guardian since childhood”. Obviously Anise and Jennah look like they are the same age, could you imagine Anise defending Jennah-baby?! Here comes very disturbing rumor:
Screenshot

So… Livia being able to maintain her youthful presence. Isn’t it obvious? Livia couldn’t keep her name and presence all the time, it would creep people out: undead lich as a personal bodyguard of the human queen? She had to change herself.

I actually think that Livia, Evennia and Anise is a 3 women witch team that dedicated their lives to protect Kryta. All 3 of them are hundreds of years old.

Livia=Necromancer
Evennia=Monk and Guardian
Anise=Mesmer

Ignoring CHIPS’ fullout unsupported speculation…

I don’t see a similarity between Anise and Livia. While the “ruthless and effecient” and the Grenth lines are interesting similarities, the luxury and bound one? I don’t see that as “sounds like a lich who sold her soul” – especially given how nothing says Livia is a lich, especially since she isn’t rotten as all liches appear. She appears human, so her longevity is likely tied to the same as Magi Malaquire in GW1 who mentions having been with King Doric during the Siege of Jumah – that’d be over 1,000 years.

Furthermore, Anise is the childhood friend of Jennah and a mesmer, not a necromancer. This means that people – Jennah included – knew Anise as a child. If Anise was Livia, they wouldn’t know this. Furthermore, they knew Anise before she was a Shining Blade member – she joined the Shining Blade because she was a childhood friend of Jennah.

The fact that Anise has a known history kind of counteracts the theory that “Anise = Livia.” That’s ignoring the whole mesmer != necromancer thing.

Konig, I guess you didn’t read all my post…
Anyway, Vizier Khilbron was a lich, and he did mask his true appearance as well.
Can you please give me any source? How do you know “known history” of Anise? I would gladly read it if there is something I don’t know about.
btw. we don’t even know how to call longevity of Magi Malaquire, so I just used the term Lich (wiki: Often such a creature is the result of a transformation, as a powerful magician or king striving for eternal life uses spells or rituals to bind his intellect to his animated corpse and thereby achieve a form of immortality.)

I don’t recall the exact source for Anise’s history. It was either Edge of Destiny, an interview, or The Line of Duty (which a quick readthrough would be no unless I’m just misremembering “Anise defended Jennah as her personal guard while Jennah was a young princess”).

It should be noted that liches of GW are not the same as liches in standard fantasy – though in both cases, they’re undead, and in standard fantasy, often skeletons. Livia, by all intents and purposes, seems to be anything but undead. And therefore not a lich. Not to mention there’s no reason to claim she’s a lich – given an interview with Angel McCoy, “magical longevity” is indeed possible – that is, lengthening one’s lifespan via powerful magics. It would not be lengthening one’s lifespan if it is done via undeath.

And I wouldn’t use that gossiping citizen as reliable. Just read any of the Gossiping Citizen dialogues. None but the Great Collapse’s seem remotely reliable.

Also, I have not once seen any line about Anise being Jennah’s father’s bodyguard. Just Jennah’s.

It should be noted, however, that Jennah appointed Anise as the leader of the Shining Blade. (As said in The Line of Duty)

Thats exactly my point – Anise defended Jennah when she was a princess, that means Anise is MUCH older than Jennah. They can’t be childhood friends. Maybe Jennah decided to choose the previous bodyguard because of sentiments
Anyway, you know ANet, they like to troll, mix funny jokes like quaggan army, with other strange rumors, and then making one of them to come true :P

Btw. I’m sorry but you didn’t show any reliable source about Anise’s past. The Line of Duty spoke nothing, and as far as I remember the only dialogue of Anise in Edge of Destiny is “we are mesmers, we can feel such power incoming” or something like that, when Kralkatorrik arose.

Anise and Jennah could have been childhood friends, and when Jennah started growing up, maybe around her teens, Anise was starting to become a bodyguard-esque figure, a lady-in-waiting. “Princess” could be any time up until ten years before the story (I think that’s how long she’s been queen), and we don’t know Jennah’s age. So Anise could totally be a bodyguard and personal friend.
For the quotes, she probably said Grenth and not Lyssa because of a guardian spirit, sort of saying “Pray that Grenth doesn’t take you/protects you from death”. The luxury/bound line is also more probably just referring to the fact that she can’t step down from the Shining Blade, or do whatever she wants like the PC/Logan (not sure who she’s talking to). Her duty as the Exemplar is to protect the Queen, so she’s bound

There’s a dialogue in the Grove, of all places, saying Jennah is almost thirty. That’d have her taking the throne somewhere in her late teens.

Anise’s past is still a mystery though, so you can’t deny my suggestions. Everyone can disagree, but you should admit my suspicions are not unfounded :c

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Furthermore, Anise is the childhood friend of Jennah and a mesmer, not a necromancer. This means that people – Jennah included – knew Anise as a child. If Anise was Livia, they wouldn’t know this. Furthermore, they knew Anise before she was a Shining Blade member – she joined the Shining Blade because she was a childhood friend of Jennah.

Keep in mind that queen Jennah (and the devs) could have created this fake childhood story to cover up the real truth behind Anise.

There is a resemblance between the two, but I’d rather say that, if anything, Anise is Livias daughter, mostly due to the fact that Livia was a necromancer, not a Mesmer.

And no, “May Grenth keep you safe.” is not an indication that she is a necromancer, it’s simply saying that she wishes you to stay alive, since Grenth is the god of the dead, so he decides if he takes you or not. If he keeps you save, you don’t die; it’s as easy as that.

I don’t see why Livia would have changed her appearance or created an entirely new persona for herself for that matter. In 1256 AE she looked exactly the way we last saw her in GW1, so why would she hide herself now?

The scepter of orr is able to “influence souls and the wielder’s energy” perhaps this would allow someone to change their magical profession with it? The Staff of the mists was able to manipulate the physical world, perhaps the scepter could manipulate the magical/spiritual world?

NinjaChris.9340:

I don’t see why Livia would have changed her appearance or created an entirely new persona for herself for that matter. In 1256 AE she looked exactly the way we last saw her in GW1, so why would she hide herself now?

Minor correction: She looked exactly the way we saw her in GW1, except that she had a stripe of white hair (I’m guessing in replace of that lighter-red stripe she had in GW1).

And this is a very good point, I think. If Livia didn’t bother changing her name and face 70 years ago, why would she now?

Furthermore, why would she go from leader to high ranking non-leader, to leader again? Also, to the OP saying that Livia in Sea of Sorrows was the “personal bodyguard” – I don’t think this is quite true. While she was the one ‘in charge’ during the related events of Sea of Sorrows, it seemed to me more that she joined because of the threat Orr poses which Livia knew how bad it was and knew Edair over-estimated said threat. She outright states she doesn’t care who takes the throne, so long as it is of the Salmaic dynasty (aka Queen Salma’s bloodline). If anything, she’d probably want to eliminate Edair given how poor for the throne he’d be, and promote getting his brother or sister on the throne instead (which may have happened, given King Roderick was the king’s name 50 years prior to GW2 – 20 years post-end of SoS). Either way, while she was advising the most out of the Shining Blade members, nothing says she was Edair’s personal bodyguard like Anise is to Jennah.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

NinjaChris.9340:

I don’t see why Livia would have changed her appearance or created an entirely new persona for herself for that matter. In 1256 AE she looked exactly the way we last saw her in GW1, so why would she hide herself now?

Minor correction: She looked exactly the way we saw her in GW1, except that she had a stripe of white hair (I’m guessing in replace of that lighter-red stripe she had in GW1).

And this is a very good point, I think. If Livia didn’t bother changing her name and face 70 years ago, why would she now?

Furthermore, why would she go from leader to high ranking non-leader, to leader again? Also, to the OP saying that Livia in Sea of Sorrows was the “personal bodyguard” – I don’t think this is quite true. While she was the one ‘in charge’ during the related events of Sea of Sorrows, it seemed to me more that she joined because of the threat Orr poses which Livia knew how bad it was and knew Edair under-estimated said threat. She outright states she doesn’t care who takes the throne, so long as it is of the Salmaic dynasty (aka Queen Salma’s bloodline). If anything, she’d probably want to eliminate Edair given how poor for the throne he’d be, and promote getting his brother or sister on the throne instead (which may have happened, given King Roderick was the king’s name 50 years prior to GW2 – 20 years post-end of SoS). Either way, while she was advising the most out of the Shining Blade members, nothing says she was Edair’s personal bodyguard like Anise is to Jennah.

Think you meant under-estimated there if not I will just remove this post.

Minor correction: She looked exactly the way we saw her in GW1, except that she had a stripe of white hair (I’m guessing in replace of that lighter-red stripe she had in GW1).

Or maybe its always been white. She just dyed it red in GW1.

Mysteries mysteries.

On a more serious note, I personally don’t think Anise is Livia. Livia is probably pulling the strings behind the scene instead. She will reappear in Kryta’s more dire moment.

Although in GW1, the Lich Vizier Khilbron was able to change his appearance without the help Scepter of Orr. And Vizier Khilbron was a necromancer. So being a mesmer or not has nothing to do with pretending to be someone else. Neither does having the Scepter of Orr a requirement.

Orrians were naturally powerful spellcasters though, and being an even more powerful one seems to have been a requirement of Orrian Viziers (per Under Siege as Trahearne automatically suspects a vizier when powerful magic is shown). So I wouldn’t list what Khilbron can do – pre or post mortem – as something “common” for necromancers or liches, or even wielders of the Scepter of Orr (especially given his ties to Abaddon as well).

Using Khilbron as a base for non-Orrians seems full of folly to me.

I mean, Vizier can teleport large distances and is constantly floating (though this latter may be part of whatever illusion keeps him looking human-like). Neither are typical necromancy.

Another mystery: Livia (Anise) almost blurted out how old she (at least) is…xD also, in the A Society Function, Livia says something like “we nobles have many masks, but these are much less obvious/visible”

Also, how SHE could know about this ancient Krytan law? She isn’t historian neither. Her knowledge in history should be limited to Shining Blade history across years etc.

Who says she isn’t a historian? Given the fact that she’s the master of the Shining Blade, I’d be shocked if she didn’t have a more-than-basic history lesson. At least of the past 250 years since the White Mantle were formed.

And I’m not sure what your A Society Function line has to do with Anise possibly being Livia.

I mean she didn’t speak only about other nobles, she included herself in the line. She said she hides behind a mask too

Well, she is a noble, and she was talking about nobles in general. I wouldn’t read to much into it. People would talk like that even if they didn’t include themselves.

And besides, she’s the head of an organization that specializes in covert activities in Kryta (aside from protecting the crowned royalty that is). Of course she wears a mask! I’d be more shocked if she excluded herself from nobles or mask-wearers and consider her suspicious in that scenario.

You still didn’t negate my screenshot “evidence”, which is strange, because you obviously want to deny everything in my theory :P

Your screenshot? Yeah, I did.

“Who says she isn’t a historian? Given the fact that she’s the master of the Shining Blade, I’d be shocked if she didn’t have a more-than-basic history lesson. At least of the past 250 years since the White Mantle were formed.”

Or do you mean the “…or so I’ve been told” bit? Alright, I’ll give you a scenario that happened less than five minutes ago:

My parents were just talking with me over a family member’s wake I and my father and sister went to last weekend (good ol’ Uncle Sam). And in this conversation we go to the stories of the older members of my dad’s side of the family. One of which is about my great grandmother’s reaction over my grandfather’s eldest younger brother (the oldest of his younger brothers that is). My dad says that my great grandmother was histerical during the funeral, screaming that she hadn’t seen the body and cannot tell whom he was (he was killed in WWII by artillery so it was closed coffin and all). He says she was leaping at the coffin trying to get it open, and ends that bit with “or so I’ve been told.”

My father wasn’t around then, so he can only tell me what he’s been told. That’s all the phrase means. Same goes for Anise. My father isn’t hiding some hidden fact that he’s 70 years old or older. Why would it be any different for Anise? It’s a very common phrase for safeguarding yourself on historical second-hand information for the chance you get proven wrong.

You might be right, but don’t have to. ANet could purposely hide such secret behind a common phrase. After all, people seek mysteries hidden between the lines. When you are trying to rationalize every bit of my speculations, I’m afraid you will get disappointed if this mystery will be confirmed. I’m not trying to convince you to believe in my theory, I’m just asking you to not close your mind against it. I accept your side, that you don’t agree with it, but please admit this mystery has some potential.

I’d actually be pleasantly surprised if I’m proven wrong. Thus far, all my theories on the living story has proven right if proven/debunked. I would love for myself to be wrong somewhere. Especially if it wasn’t completely lorebreaking.

But you’re basically saying someone who is sarcastic is only pretending to be sarcastic. If you look at the direction ArenaNet goes… They aren’t good at hiding these kinds of plot twists. I mean, look at Khilbron in Prophecies or Abaddon in Nightfall. Everyone knew long before the twist behind them was shown what the twist was (that Khilbron was the loch and Abaddon would be the final boss).

This theory has enough potential that I’d agree with it… If it wasn’t ArenaNet. Or if it didn’t counteract the establishment of Anise’s character. Or if the two looked remotely alike. As is, it just doesn’t seem at all likely and all support for it is extremely flimsy – insanely so.

Sublimatio.6981:

Thats exactly my point – Anise defended Jennah when she was a princess, that means Anise is MUCH older than Jennah. They can’t be childhood friends. Maybe Jennah decided to choose the previous bodyguard because of sentiments

I will kindly point you in the direction of the Vel’Sharen of the Drowtales Universe. In the Vel’Sharen Clan, which is also the ruling clan of the Drow Empire, young members of the Clan who are born to the ruling family are gifted with adoptive twins almost at birth. These adoptive twins are trained from birth for the sole purpose of acting as the personal bodyguard and body-double of the actual noble for whom they are the adoptive twin of.

If Guild Wars was using the same concept of “Adopt a Bodyguard” that Drowtales uses, then yes, Anise could very easily be the same age as Jennah. They could very easily have been trained at the same school, seeing as how both Anise and Jennah are Mesmers of extraordinary power. In fact I think it is very likely that this is what happened given what is known about Anise, not to mention that this is essentially the role that Ladies in Waiting have always served for Princesses. It makes far more sense for this to be the case than it does for Anise to be a centuries old Lich.

Sublimatio.6981:

First of all, yes, Livia is a necromancer. But she claimed to learn necromancy in a short time by working with Gadd. This indicates that a profession can be learned, not only to be born with. Video source

This is a misunderstanding of the actual dialogue.

What Livia actually says is:

“But I’ve learned a great deal about necromancy in the short time I’ve known him”

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbItuAjkwgs#t=01m10s

What this means, is that she simply has learned a lot of things from him in a short time, but it doesn’t mean she has actually learned to be a necromancer from Gadd. The dialogue simply implies that while Gadd is difficult to work with, he knows a lot, and a lot can be learned from working with him.

What we do know, is that any line of magic can both be self taught, and can be something you’re naturally born with. But this dialogue has nothing to do with that.

Sublimatio.6981:

Also, very important thing to mention – she was able to magically maintain her youthful appearance, indicating that she posessed mesmer skills.

Wait what?! How did you conclude that she used mesmer skills to maintain a youthful appearance? Aren’t there other magical ways to stay young? Necromancers control life and death after all.

Sublimatio.6981:

And now the quotes Anise said at human personal story!
“Ruthless and efficient, eh? You remind me of …someone.” – Obvious reffer to Gadd (Look at this video)

Or she could be referring to Jennah… or Livia. If she is referring to Livia, then that means Anise has met Livia, but also that they are two different people (unless she has a split personality). More likely she is referring to either herself or Queen Jennah. Heck, she could be referring to the White Mantle even.

Sublimatio.6981:

“May Grenth keep you safe.” – Showing her necromancer tendency. (Why not Lyssa?!)

Grenth decides over death. Keep in mind that many humans believe in all the Gods, and not just the God of their profession. So a mesmer could worship Lyssa, yet pray to Grenth for safe guidance. It’s really not that odd.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Sublimatio.6981:

Thats exactly my point – Anise defended Jennah when she was a princess, that means Anise is MUCH older than Jennah. They can’t be childhood friends. Maybe Jennah decided to choose the previous bodyguard because of sentiments

I will kindly point you in the direction of the Vel’Sharen of the Drowtales Universe. In the Vel’Sharen Clan, which is also the ruling clan of the Drow Empire, young members of the Clan who are born to the ruling family are gifted with adoptive twins almost at birth. These adoptive twins are trained from birth for the sole purpose of acting as the personal bodyguard and body-double of the actual noble for whom they are the adoptive twin of.

If Guild Wars was using the same concept of “Adopt a Bodyguard” that Drowtales uses, then yes, Anise could very easily be the same age as Jennah. They could very easily have been trained at the same school, seeing as how both Anise and Jennah are Mesmers of extraordinary power. In fact I think it is very likely that this is what happened given what is known about Anise, not to mention that this is essentially the role that Ladies in Waiting have always served for Princesses. It makes far more sense for this to be the case than it does for Anise to be a centuries old Lich.

Or, even more simply, Anise, could be just a few years older than Jennah. Five or even ten years isn’t such a big deal when you’re around your thirties (particularly since in Tyria, humans do seem to preserve their youth and vitality beyond what would be expected even in modern society – consider how old Adelbern was at the time of the Searing, let alone the time of the Foefire), but when you’re in your teens or younger that’s huge. It’s entirely reasonable that a relatively small age gap could have lead to the situation where Anise was considered responsible enough to play a part in the young princess’ protection, while being close enough in age for the young Jennah to regard her as a peer rather than part of the previous generation.

It’s an interesting theory, there certainly is something peculiar about Anise, she could have picked up Mesmer-ism as a secondary profession. Not entirely sure why she’d pretend to be Anise, though, she was still around and prominent for when Zhaitan woke up and Orr popped back up. Her becoming a lich was a rumor for her youthful appearance, along with her sacrificing prisoners. It’d probably be more likely that when she disappeared that she went off and had a kid, since I don’t see a reason for her to hide for 60 years, with about half of which being as Anise.

Approximately quoted new ambient dialogue from LS ep 4.

This is pretty much my theory of choice now.

Yeah I did notice that instantly I knew someone will necro my old thread!

It is far more likely for her to be strongly related to Salma, than it is for her to be related to Livia.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’d actually be pleasantly surprised if I’m proven wrong. Thus far, all my theories on the living story has proven right if proven/debunked. I would love for myself to be wrong somewhere. Especially if it wasn’t completely lorebreaking.

But you’re basically saying someone who is sarcastic is only pretending to be sarcastic. If you look at the direction ArenaNet goes… They aren’t good at hiding these kinds of plot twists. I mean, look at Khilbron in Prophecies or Abaddon in Nightfall. Everyone knew long before the twist behind them was shown what the twist was (that Khilbron was the loch and Abaddon would be the final boss).

This theory has enough potential that I’d agree with it… If it wasn’t ArenaNet. Or if it didn’t counteract the establishment of Anise’s character. Or if the two looked remotely alike. As is, it just doesn’t seem at all likely and all support for it is extremely flimsy – insanely so.

Well, there are all the times that you argues until you were blue in the face that Scarlet wasn’t corrupted.

“Or she could be referring to Jennah… or Livia. If she is referring to Livia, then that means Anise has met Livia, but also that they are two different people (unless she has a split personality). More likely she is referring to either herself or Queen Jennah. Heck, she could be referring to the White Mantle even.”

I’m not so sure that she would be referring to Jennah since she isn’t exactly someone I would describe as “ruthless”. However, Gadd was ruthless and efficient.

If she simply said “You remind me of Queen Jennah” then that would be fine. I see no reason why Anise would hide the name of whom he reminded her of. However, Countess Anise deliberately hides the name of the person whom she is referring to.

I imagine that Countess Anise does not want to say who he reminds her of BECAUSE doing so would give away her age. If she said Gadd, then the secret’s out.

I think you should drop the Lich theory. I would also go with Aniise being a part of Livia’s bloodline over being actually Livia, although I used to think the same thing. It would make sense for them to be related though and have held the same office.

Don’t ever try and hold ArenaNet to lore though. They will change it on you in an instant and the next thing you know, something really cool or really ham-fisted will come out of it. There is no middle ground.

What was the line again about being reminded?

Frankly, I think the fact she’s a mesmer causes people to over analyze and nitpick into her statements, as if everything is an illusion. MIGHT BE TRUE… but still.

I do think she’s up to something but I’m not so sure she’s Livia. Guess we’ll see if she ends up having the Staff in her possession. That being said, maybe she’s a relative or a protege looking for her/legacy?

DarcShriek.5829:

Well, there are all the times that you argues until you were blue in the face that Scarlet wasn’t corrupted.

My argument has always been that it wasn’t confirmed. People took it as an absolute without confirmation of such.

With Episode 3’s release, however, it was confirmed for sylvari players.

And I was never blue in the face.