Server: Kaineng
Name: “Kaide” (Kaine is just the account name)
Name: “Kaide” (Kaine is just the account name)
Are Charr Atheist like me?
You may want to read the Guild Wars 1 Story or play Guild Wars 1. The Flame Legion had found “gods” (the Titans) that helped them perform the devastating attack on Ascalon, which broke the Great Wall, also known as the Searing. The Titans later got killed by Humans (Guild Wars Prophecies, the Titan Quests, after you finished the main story) and so many of the Charr lost their faith, because what gods could be slain by humans? With the help of the female charr (Kalla Scorchrazer), the Iron, Ash and Blood Legion fought against the Flame Legion with their false gods, beat them, abandoned their gods and many swore to never believe in a deity again.
Text above was completely drawn from memory, some things may be wrong, but the overall story should fit.
(edited by Tar.2894)
Strictly speaking the Charr arent Athiests cause they accept the existance of powerful beings called ‘gods’. The human gods have had a very real presence on Tyria in the past and much of their legacy remains. However the Charr refuse to worship gods regardless of their source.
‘The Charr kneel to no one’.
Much of this is born out of the fact the Charr have had really bad luck when it comes to gods. There experiance with religion has been quite negative. Its to the point where a charr who actually wants to worship a god would potentially be treated as a dangerous criminal or at best an dangerous outcast.
Strictly speaking the Charr arent Athiests cause they accept the existance of powerful beings called ‘gods’. The human gods have had a very real presence on Tyria in the past and much of their legacy remains. However the Charr refuse to worship gods regardless of their source.
‘The Charr kneel to no one’.
Much of this is born out of the fact the Charr have had really bad luck when it comes to gods. There experiance with religion has been quite negative. Its to the point where a charr who actually wants to worship a god would potentially be treated as a dangerous criminal or at best an dangerous outcast.
Pretty much this. Charr have never had gods of their own. “Who made the Charr?” is not really a question the Charr ever bothered asking and while the Charr were around when the Human Gods actually lived in Tyria, they saw the gods as someone powerful to fight and conquer. Not kneel down and worship. It’s only after the Charr lost to humans that they started thinking “we might need gods on our sides” and that’s when the Flame Legion went and found the Titans. But of course, Titans were false gods on par with the Mursaat and Flame Legion used their new religious authority to do some terrible things to the Charr society. End result, Charr have gone back to their “no gods” way of thinking.
So no, Charr are not atheists because it is really not a matter of whether they believe in gods or not. They just don’t have gods of their own but they very much know that the human gods are very real and once inhabited Tyria. I would say Asura are more of an atheists while Sylvari are just agnostic. Both don’t have religions but philosophies they follower and the Asura eternal alchemy don’t actually have a deity per say. It’s more a statement of how the universe is a closed system and we are all part of that closed system.
My brain is shagging under the weight of changes… having six characters was not a good idea!
Strictly speaking the Charr arent Athiests cause they accept the existance of powerful beings called ‘gods’. The human gods have had a very real presence on Tyria in the past and much of their legacy remains. However the Charr refuse to worship gods regardless of their source.
^ this is right.
They’re not atheists. They do acknowledge that there are gods, but they just refuse to accept that they need to depend or rely on the gods. They turned to believing in themselves, and thus their industry and technology were born.
They’re not atheists. They do acknowledge that there are gods, but they just refuse to accept that they need to depend or rely on the gods. They turned to believing in themselves, and thus their industry and technology were born.
I have to disagree, they acknowledge beings that might be more powerful then them but not as “gods” . Just something worth a fight not worship.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods
As an atheist myself I have to say that is very similar to what I believe; if there are higher beings it does not automatically make them/him/her/it a “god” and worthy of worship.
(edited by Greyfur.1082)
[quote=102246;Greyfur.1082I have to disagree, they acknowledge beings that might be more powerful then them but not as “gods” . Just something worth a fight not worship.
[/quote]
This is backwards. The char see themselves as the most powerful race and refuse to awknowledge any race as being superior. They awknowledge the gods but refuse to worship them.
The exsistance of gods isn’t really disputed in Tyria. I dont think you can really be agnostic or athiest. Religious practices seem more political choice than spiritual.
From what I’ve been able to understand, the Charr don’t neccessarily see the human gods as “divine”. They completely accept that these are ultra-powerful beings whose abilities seems god-like in nature. The Charr respect power, so they give credit where it is due. (After all, the whole reason that Humans are even still alive on this continent was due to their “gods” alpha striking down the Charr leadership on the eve of the original final battle of the human invasion onto the continent.)
What the Charr seem to have an issue with is the concept of divinity. It sort of follows the whole “Epic Rules Handbook” philosophical question in D&D. At what point does an extremely powerful spellcaster start to be classified as a “god” when they are already capable of god-like acts which could even include nearly eternal life? The Charr thought that they had their own set of gods, but these ended up being just extremely powerful mortal constructs. Who is to say that the Human gods aren’t the same way?
We are Test Group F. (Don’t ask about what happened to the previous Test Groups.)
I would say that you first need to define ‘atheist’. If atheist means that you believe that there is no such thing as a ‘god’, then the charr are not atheist, as they acknowledge that the human ‘gods’ are actual beings. On the other hand, if you define ‘atheist’ as someone who follows no god (god being an external, supernatural being) then they are. They have no ‘god’ of their own, unless it be themselves.
Charr Ranger – Honestead of the Tyrian Misfits(HOME) – Ehmry Bay
The Charr are atheist in that they don’t worship any “creator” deities of any sort.
Rather, they are believers of the physical world, and liken the human gods to creatures of powerful magic they hope to conquer rather than worship.
Charr are just like me….and they probably wouldn’t want to live in Texas either.
Hey Texas isn’t that ba—-oh who am I kidding? lol
I’ve been here for nearly two decades and still some days I don’t understand the natives.
The Charr are atheists in the sense that they won’t worship any beings with greater power, but rather find a way to kill them and settle that little discussion once and for all.
Elona, Land of the Golden Sun….and undead…and poison. The travel brochure lied okay?!
Kaine.3501 I would like to invite you to our godless guild (secular and atheist friendly) if you play on Gate of Madness
http://godless.guildlaunch.com
Wiser With Age said it better then I could
The Charr thought that they had their own set of gods, but these ended up being just extremely powerful mortal constructs. Who is to say that the Human gods aren’t the same way?
After reading all of the comments this is what I’ve gathered….
Charr are Atheist…because they realize that even if something is superior in power that does not make it a God. They learned this lesson when their Titan Gods were struck down by the humans. So in essence if the human Gods were struck down by something more powerful than them…how could they possibly be Gods?
Server: Kaineng
Name: “Kaide” (Kaine is just the account name)
Name: “Kaide” (Kaine is just the account name)
Kaine.3501 I would like to invite you to our godless guild (secular and atheist friendly) if you play on Gate of Madness
http://godless.guildlaunch.com
Wiser With Age said it better then I couldThe Charr thought that they had their own set of gods, but these ended up being just extremely powerful mortal constructs. Who is to say that the Human gods aren’t the same way?
The Six can have children? Grenth is Dwayna’s son and was born on Tyria. Balthazar has a half brother and sounds like he killed his father held his spot before him. Kormir was a human only 250 years ago. They arent the same as titans.
Frankly this is just getting into issues of definition. What is a god? In GW2 the closest definition we have is that of the Six since they have been seen actively in the game world lore prior and we know the power they represent is very real and apparently eternal (look at Abaddon’s power from nightfall).
They are gods in the way the Greek mythology had gods so yes they are really just vastly more powerful entities. Even the humans dont argue this point. Infact as far as I know only the Kodan seem to have a religion that parallels the real world modern day defination of god.
For this reason its hard to call them Atheists. Its not that they dont believe the Gods are real. They just dont believe they or anything for that matter is worthy of worship. Even if a god was shoved in their faces and they had undeniable proof Id say they would be unwilling to worship it. Thats not really Atheism.
In truth, Id say alot of Atheists are probably closer to the Asura belief in Eternal Alchemy which is more a religion of Science.
Pretty much what everyone else is saying. While atheists believe in no god, the Charr do acknowledge their existence, just refuses to worship them.
In truth, Id say alot of Atheists are probably closer to the Asura belief in Eternal Alchemy which is more a religion of Science.
I would disagree. Asura are magical beings like leprechauns or more appropriately, Dobby from Harry Potter. They use magitech. The Asura are the embodiment of magic according to them in game. Their “science” IS magic. Their name for that proverbial higher power is the eternal alchemy and their science & religion aren’t two different things. Asura are the most mystical race in Tryia as well as the most advanced.
Sorry to disapoint, but the only true “atheist” (though agnostic would be closer to reality) are the Sylvari, because being so young, as a race, they never saw any of the gods.
Meanwhile all the oders either have gods of their own (Human and Norn, yes I know the Spirits of the Wild are no gods in the world of Tyria but they are the equivalent for Norn socity), or simply refuse to worship the gods as the other races, chosing their own path (Char and Asura)
Yeah fincrn once again, the Asura quite embrace their proverbial higher power and are the most mystical race on the map. “We all have a place in the eternal alchemy.” They don’t refuse or deny anything.
The sylvari’s tantamount to a deity is the pale tree and the dream is like their answered prayer.
Yeah, once we understand that no (playable) race believes in any omnipotent divine beings, we kinda have to broaden our working definition of “god”, from what it is among real-world monotheists, in order to usefully discuss religion and philosophy among those races. Upon doing that, I don’t see any reason not to include the Eternal Alchemy, the Pale Tree, and the Spirits of the Wild alongside the six human deities.
Charr are secular (by part Nay Theist since Pyre – tv trope this) , Humans polytheistic, Sylvari monotheistic, Norn shamanistic and Asura a weird combination of monistic and agnostic.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
I would say that “atheistic” appropriately describes the charr. They acknowledge that the human “gods” exist, but do not recognize them as gods. The charr just recognize them as powerful creatures.
For a real-world example, the ancient Egyptians worshiped their pharaohs as gods. I acknowledge that those pharaohs actually existed, but that does not make me theistic because I do not recognize them as gods.
Most of you are just making up whatever you want it to be and ignoring what is actually explained through the game at which point this conversation becomes pointless.
Most of you are just making up whatever you want it to be and ignoring what is actually explained through the game at which point this conversation becomes pointless.
Care to point out anything specific that is just being made up?
Feeling guilty hippocampus?
Sure I’ll point out that a great deal of your last post was pure self created embellishment. Care to provide either in game or Arenanet sources for anything you’ve said?
You want me to provide specific in-game sources for the claim that the Asura believe in the Eternal Alchemy, the Sylvari worship the Pale Tree, and the Norn have a spiritual connection with the Spirits of the Wild?
Have you, like, played this game at all?
Or do you take issue with my claim that none of the playable races have an omnipotent deity? Do you have any ArenaNet sources that say they do? Because all the ones thus mentioned in this thread aren’t (if it can be killed, it’s not omnipotent; if it doesn’t actually do anything, it’s not omnipotent).
(edited by Hippocampus.8470)
The problem with matching real-world faiths with fantasy worlds where the divine is as self-evident as the existence of mountains is that real-world faiths are based on belief (belief in a god, belief in many gods, belief there is no god, etc.), which by its very nature, relies on not knowing. This includes atheism.
I don’t know if you could really say the Sylvari worship the Pale Tree. She is their mother in that they were all actually born from her. So they revere her as a mother.
The closest thing they have to religion would be Ventari’s tablet. And the closest thing they have to hell would be Nightmare.
I’d recommend reading: http://guildwars2roleplay.wikispaces.com/A+Comprehensive+Guide+to+All+Things+Sylvari
(edited by Rpgtabbycat.5869)
why are we even bringing our own beliefs into this discussion?
usually somewhere
Let me just finish off this thread by answering the original question:
“Are Charr Atheist like me?”
No.
In the real world, atheism has nothing to do with worship and everything to do with belief. We have different words for people who believe in deities but don’t worship them.
In Guild Wars, faith and religion are very different concepts, because the races of Tyria build these on the foundation that the beings they beseech are in fact real things. They place their faith not on the reality of these beings but on their ability to rely on them for blessings. The power of gods is a real force in the world, and requires no faith.
The question of “what is a god” is a good one, because knowing that these beings called gods are real certainly changes how people are able to perceive them. The charr claim that they killed their gods—they acknowledge the status of these beings as gods, and they acknowledge the Six Gods of the humans. A “god” is just a being of immense power that can grant this power to other beings in exchange for devotion. Or such a being is made a “god” by devotees.
Tyrians don’t sweat the details. A god is a god. You worship it or you don’t.
The norn Spirits are not unlike gods, though they aren’t considered in quite the same way because of their origin in the world. The Eternal Alchemy is more of a philosophical idea among the asura that unifies their ideas of magic and science. It’s not a “religion” and there are no temples.
Sylvari are considered truly “agnostic” but only in terms of the six human gods—they’re the only race that never experienced the influence of the human gods, and since the human gods no longer answer human prayers, sylvari aren’t sure what it is the humans are praying to, or if they were ever there. All they hear are stories.
Sylvari can see the influence of the gods of other races, such as the grawl or the hylek, and come to different conclusions about gods in general. The sylvari themselves simply do not worship anything, and the belief they put in the Dream and their Mother Tree, and their thoughts on their afterlife are all based on verifiable fact.
Some sylvari question beyond this fact, to what created the world, and what created the Pale Tree and the Dream, but all they really do is question. Sylvari love to question.
That’s the long and short of it. (Source: the Guild Wars 2 Wiki pages about all this stuff.)
(edited by Naught.2316)
In Guild Wars, faith and religion are very different concepts, because the races of Tyria build these on the foundation that the beings they beseech are in fact real things. They place their faith not on the reality of these beings but on their ability to rely on them for blessings. The power of gods is a real force in the world, and requires no faith.
The question of “what is a god” is a good one, because knowing that these beings called gods are real certainly changes how people are able to perceive them. The charr claim that they killed their gods—they acknowledge the status of these beings as gods, and they acknowledge the Six Gods of the humans. A “god” is just a being of immense power that can grant this power to other beings in exchange for devotion. Or such a being is made a “god” by devotees.
Tyrians don’t sweat the details. A god is a god. You worship it or you don’t.
Very well stated. You have summed this up quite well – what people seem to be missing is that our personal experiences with religion don’t apply in worlds like Tyria where deities are clearly present, even if they are somewhat detached. Atheism and many of our other real world belief systems simply would not apply if a particular pantheon of deities appeared tomorrow and made their power known. Regardless of whether people worshiped them or not, there really is no denying that they exist.
Yea the word “god” is defined differently in Tyria vs Earth, so Charr are definitely not atheists in that there is no belief required (no belief to refuse) – gods are real in Tyria. Charr just don’t worship any currently.
Sylvari are agnostic and since the six god’s arent around anymore they are the closest thing to athiest till the gods show themselves again.
It seems to me that the eternal alchemy is like totally the Force man.
Before flames please recognize that this HAD to be done. Also for adding to discussion, I think the Asura rock and their beliefs are better flowing, IMHO.
Sylvari are agnostic and since the six god’s arent around anymore they are the closest thing to athiest till the gods show themselves again.
They are around, they just aren’t directly influencing anything anymore. They are acting through their priests, hence you can be blessed.
Vaxra – Sword/Dagger Ranger
in the char start of the story in the movie it says " WIth the use of machinery We defeated our Gods" basically said they killed they gods to show they are superior
“One man cannot be the Hero alone”
Charr know of the existence of gods as a fact, but don’t believe in any false unproven gods.
Any self-respecting Earth atheist would believe that a god exists if there was proof, but there is no proof or evidence of any of Earth’s gods being real, only of the very opposite, that they were made-up.
Humans in Earth believe in gods just because of lack of skeptical, critical thinking, lazy custom, blind faith, lack of shared information and/or unproven hearsay.
But believing that the existence of a proven god as a fact doesn’t stop you from being an atheist.
They know of gods, but they don’t follow any, and won’t believe in the false gods made up by the Flame Legion or anyone else. They won’t accept the rule of any creature that gains enough power and decides to call themselves a god either.
The key of being an atheist is not believing false made-up gods like grawl do all the time, so that makes charr the very epitome of atheism.
They are just not ‘atheists like you’ because in Tyria, unlike on Earth, there’s actual gods proven to exist, with statues made by Malchor and all, and the definition of ‘god’ may not be the same for the ‘real’ Tyrian gods and the Human made-up ones.
I found this quote by Jeff Grubb which I thought was pretty relevant:
Jeff Grubb: The Great Dwarf can best be thought of as collective consciousness of the dwarves themselves (indeed, in making the prophesy of the Great Dwarf defeating the Great Destroyer coming true). Has anyone MET the Great Dwarf, and found him to be a real being? Well, that has not happened.
The whole question of gods is based upon culture. The humans have tangible, powerful beings that they can interact with – hence, gods. The spirits of the norn also fit that description, so humans would call these beings “gods” as well. Norn would disagree. And describe the human gods as being “Spirits of Action” of the humans – Balthazar is obviously War, and should be spoken of as such. Kormir is Knowledge, and calling her Kormir is a quaint human thing.
Similarly, the humans would say that asura have no gods, or that they worship some concept. The asura would say that the Eternal Alchemy is obviously a true way of looking at the universe, and that that human gods were merely functions in that equation (really BIG functions, but functions nonetheless).
And while the Charr recognize the humans gods as powerful patrons, they reject those patrons as being all-powerful or worthy of veneration. Indeed, such worship makes the worshippers weak.