Guild Wars 2

Can mesmers sense magic the same way a necro can sense life force?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Nightmare_Unveiled

In this article they position two things. One that Kasmeer could sense the magical framework of the spell. And two that mesmers, and other concerned parties were arriving to investigate.

It could be possible that this was all simply because the spell in question was illusion magic.

However mesmers in gw1 could shutdown abilities as well as copy them. Thoughts?

Mesmer now is definitely not what they were in gw1. The scope of their power is much more broad and powerful.

I think it may have been because of it being illusion magic.

However, kasmeer seems to be much more potent than your average mesmer. She seems to also be getting gradually more powerful as the living story goes on and I bet she’ll be the first lore based chronomancer. Buuuuut, I think she’s a special case when it comes to that, since she can sense lies as well. It seems like she can sense anything false

Kasmeer was sent there because it was illusion magic, as mentioned in open world dialogue before that story instance was released.

“No clue yet. They’re krait. Naturally mysterious and—as we’ve covered—irritable. All I know is they’re up to no good, and there’s an anomaly in the water out there.”
→An anomaly? How’s that?
“An illusion, if Kasmeer’s right. There’s an area we can’t breech. An invisible barrier.”
→Why are you here?
“The Great and Gorgeous Mesmer Collective, or whatever they call themselves, contacted Kasmeer to come down and take a look. Seems they admire her for more than her looks.”

As to the initial question: Necromancers use magic too. They just can also use life force. It would be more accurate to try to argue “mesmers are to ether as necromancers are to life force”. Both professions utilize magic, as well as ether and life force even (as well as other magical professions like thieves, guardians, elementalists), but mesmers have a finer tuning with ether and necromancers have the same with life force.

Ether being the core form of ambient magic – or so given lore implies – while life force being the energy behind living (take too much and an individual dies – all magic users can tap into their own life force to strengthen their magic, at the risk of injury or death; for example, Koro Sagewind in GW1 tapped into her life force to create an army of illusions but died hours later).

In the Guild Wars 1 context, mesmers were able to manipulate energy and magic in a similar sense to necromancers being able to play shenanigans with their own health and that of their enemies. Mesmers weren’t unique in this, but they were the only profession that could steal or borrow skills off another profession, and generally they had a much wider range of ways they could manipulate their own energy or that of others than the other professions.

My suspicion is that all of the primary spellcasters can at least sense their own type of magic in use – there’s a short story where it’s mentioned that Marjory could tell if someone was a necromancer, for instance. Given the ability of mesmers to manipulate the magic of others, I’d suspect that they typically have a more advanced ability to sense magic (and recognise how best to disrupt it) then the other spellcasting professions. I don’t think any of this has ever been said anywhere officially, though, it’s mostly just the observation that in GW1, mesmers were the masters of manipulating magical energy.

vanderwolf.7084:

and I bet she’ll be the first lore based chronomancer.

Just a sidenote – that would already be Anise, considering what she does in this quest (whenever the PC fails at something):
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Party_Politics

Mesmers are the closest we get in GW to classic Arcanists from other universes, which weave magic in its purest form (‘ley’/‘(a)ether’) via words/thoughts/runes/aether-grams/gestures into complex mathematical structures until it fulfills the wished purpose, so I guess they have the deepest understanding of how spells manipulate the ether and are the only ones who can analyse the etherial structures to detect and recreate spells, while other professions may just have a basic understanding of magic and control it more indirectly. Magic in GW is in general something more intuitive – kids are able to cast spells by accident, dumb/primitive creatures can cast powerful spells, while you have to study several years to cast something useful in Warcraft.
As a civilized culture you get (of course) educated to control it better and use it properly (if you have the gift to cast spells), but I would guess only Mesmers and some scholars learn how to get to the nitty-gritty of the ether. Thats why they can use it in the most complex, most fine-tuned and efficient ways.

Agroman.7190:

vanderwolf.7084:

and I bet she’ll be the first lore based chronomancer.

Just a sidenote – that would already be Anise, considering what she does in this quest (whenever the PC fails at something):
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Party_Politics

I find it unlikely Anise manipulated time in that instance – doing that in such a large scale would be a magical feat unplausibly powerful. More likely she, as Kasmeer said, created a distraction, warped the player and Kasmeer out of the situation, and masked the suspicion with some mind bending magic.

Honestly, I find the mind bending thing more unlikely than time warping. It’s never really stated that mesmers can get directly into people’s head. But, any way you put it, the spell is ridiculously powerful.

Agroman.7190:

Honestly, I find the mind bending thing more unlikely than time warping. It’s never really stated that mesmers can get directly into people’s head. But, any way you put it, the spell is ridiculously powerful.

In Edge of Destiny, it actually states that both queen jennah and countess anise can do just that (and other mesmers, probably depending on how powerfull they are) from EoD:

“We are mesmers. We know minds- how to touch them, how to turn them. Let us meditate on the mind of this storm.”

That’s the important line really, it goes on about how she enters the mind of the dragon and such. But is she and anise are powerful enough to enter the mind of a dragon, than i’m sure it’s hardly that big of a feat to manipulate the thoughts of a regular human.

Mesmers primarily use illusions and, in GW1, curses that affect other people’s perception. They (or at least some) are of course able to enter the mind of other beings, but controlling it directly is a different thing, and that is something we have no explicit lore about.

Edit: Admittedly, Snaff used direct mind control on Kralkatorrik, but that was only possible because Eir shot the dragon with special crystal-tipped arrows that allowed Snaff access to its mind. So that’s a different thing and hasn’t got anything to do with mesmerism.

To me, the statement Queen jennah makes in the book about being able to turn someones mind, suggests manipulation is possible for mesmers.

In gw1 mesmers were also very adapt at stopping people in their tracks, interrupting the attackes they had yet to make through mind magic, stopping someone from doing something by entering their mind is manipulating it.

It’s not like we’re talking about just any mesmers, but Countess anise, who’s known to be quite powerful.

Agroman.7190:

Honestly, I find the mind bending thing more unlikely than time warping. It’s never really stated that mesmers can get directly into people’s head. But, any way you put it, the spell is ridiculously powerful.

“Getting into people’s head” is exactly what the majority of the GW1 mesmer plethora of skills are about.

Mesmers, in general, can do two things: First, they can manipulate reality via ether. Second, they can directly alter people’s minds.

When the mesmer was released, there was an argument not unlike the current druid one where someone argued mesmers in GW2 weren’t true mesmers because they’re manipulating reality and that’s not what mesmers in GW1 did. While mostly true (there was some manipulation of reality in GW1), a dev came in to state that mesmers were always capable of doing both (of course, despite this the person continued arguing his point…).

It was also said in an interview with Angel that mesmers don’t like it being known that they can manipulate an individual’s perception of reality (“get directly into their mind”) to avoid fear propagating about the mesmer. Given GW1, either this is a recent thing thus explaining the overall movement towards reality manipulation over mind manipulation, or yet another thing Angel got wrong in interviews.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Agroman.7190:

Honestly, I find the mind bending thing more unlikely than time warping. It’s never really stated that mesmers can get directly into people’s head. But, any way you put it, the spell is ridiculously powerful.

“Getting into people’s head” is exactly what the majority of the GW1 mesmer plethora of skills are about.

Mesmers, in general, can do two things: First, they can manipulate reality via ether. Second, they can directly alter people’s minds.

When the mesmer was released, there was an argument not unlike the current druid one where someone argued mesmers in GW2 weren’t true mesmers because they’re manipulating reality and that’s not what mesmers in GW1 did. While mostly true (there was some manipulation of reality in GW1), a dev came in to state that mesmers were always capable of doing both (of course, despite this the person continued arguing his point…).

It was also said in an interview with Angel that mesmers don’t like it being known that they can manipulate an individual’s perception of reality (“get directly into their mind”) to avoid fear propagating about the mesmer. Given GW1, either this is a recent thing thus explaining the overall movement towards reality manipulation over mind manipulation, or yet another thing Angel got wrong in interviews.

In the reveal Robert mentions difficulty finding time magic that will work with lore.

Is there anything in chrono that reminds you of gw1?

This comes immediately to mind.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“Getting into people’s head” is exactly what the majority of the GW1 mesmer plethora of skills are about.

Mesmers, in general, can do two things: First, they can manipulate reality via ether. Second, they can directly alter people’s minds.

When the mesmer was released, there was an argument not unlike the current druid one where someone argued mesmers in GW2 weren’t true mesmers because they’re manipulating reality and that’s not what mesmers in GW1 did. While mostly true (there was some manipulation of reality in GW1), a dev came in to state that mesmers were always capable of doing both (of course, despite this the person continued arguing his point…).

It was also said in an interview with Angel that mesmers don’t like it being known that they can manipulate an individual’s perception of reality (“get directly into their mind”) to avoid fear propagating about the mesmer. Given GW1, either this is a recent thing thus explaining the overall movement towards reality manipulation over mind manipulation, or yet another thing Angel got wrong in interviews.

I don’t doubt that or disagree with it. Perhaps I’m having some difficulty explaining what my point is, English is not my native language.

Of course the mesmer is largely about messing with other people’s minds. What I am trying to say is that they do not directly control people’s thoughts but rather ‘guide’ them in a certain direction using spells. Theit victims don’t just become brainwashed puppets. My point is that they can influence minds, but propably not flat out read them. Which I believe would be necessary in order to achieve something as extreme as what Anise did in Party Politics without involving some time warping.

Agroman.7190:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“Getting into people’s head” is exactly what the majority of the GW1 mesmer plethora of skills are about.

Mesmers, in general, can do two things: First, they can manipulate reality via ether. Second, they can directly alter people’s minds.

When the mesmer was released, there was an argument not unlike the current druid one where someone argued mesmers in GW2 weren’t true mesmers because they’re manipulating reality and that’s not what mesmers in GW1 did. While mostly true (there was some manipulation of reality in GW1), a dev came in to state that mesmers were always capable of doing both (of course, despite this the person continued arguing his point…).

It was also said in an interview with Angel that mesmers don’t like it being known that they can manipulate an individual’s perception of reality (“get directly into their mind”) to avoid fear propagating about the mesmer. Given GW1, either this is a recent thing thus explaining the overall movement towards reality manipulation over mind manipulation, or yet another thing Angel got wrong in interviews.

I don’t doubt that or disagree with it. Perhaps I’m having some difficulty explaining what my point is, English is not my native language.

Of course the mesmer is largely about messing with other people’s minds. What I am trying to say is that they do not directly control people’s thoughts but rather ‘guide’ them in a certain direction using spells. Theit victims don’t just become brainwashed puppets. My point is that they can influence minds, but propably not flat out read them. Which I believe would be necessary in order to achieve something as extreme as what Anise did in Party Politics without involving some time warping.

Well in Edge of destiny they managed to enter the mind of kralkatorrik, and see through his eyes. Queen jennah, with the help of anise, was able to enter and see what the dragon saw, read the darkness inside. For a short while before kralkatorrik kinda threw them out, but being able to enter the mind of a dragon and see the darkness within it is no small feat, now imagine countess anise doing such with a mere human, i doubt she’d have any issues reading their minds and manipulating memories so they forget what just happened. I’m not talking about anise making them brainwashed puppies, just that they can manipulate the thoughts of a person. Most likely through blocking certain memories.

Agroman.7190:

Of course the mesmer is largely about messing with other people’s minds. What I am trying to say is that they do not directly control people’s thoughts but rather ‘guide’ them in a certain direction using spells. Theit victims don’t just become brainwashed puppets. My point is that they can influence minds, but propably not flat out read them. Which I believe would be necessary in order to achieve something as extreme as what Anise did in Party Politics without involving some time warping.

Human storyline, Missed Opportunity/Circus storyline. It’s all about mesmer magic being used to brainwash people.

Many people suspect that Jennah brainwashed Logan and that’s why he so quickly fell in love and ran off to her when preparing to fight Kralkatorrik. And not without reason, given we know that mesmers can enter people’s minds.

Jennah, Anise, and Snaff all (attempted in the first two cases) to read Kralkatorrik’s mind.

Macha from Sea of Sorrows is a mesmer that constantly used telepathy.

I’d kind of say that mesmers are capable of the proverbial mind kittens.

So… yeah, they are capable of such.

I doubt the mind of Kralkatorrik can be compared to that of a human. The Elder Dragons aren’t sentient in the way humans are (except perhaps Mordremoth). More like forces of nature. Perhaps it isn’t even as complex for a mesmer to touch a mind as large as that of an Elder Dragon.

Edit: I don’t see where Macha’s telepathy necessarily involes mind reading. I don’t recall any point in the book where it was clear that she knew what Coby was thinking. The grizwhirl story I’d argue uses hypnotic spells rather than direct mind access. So I really don’t say that it is impossible to make someone a brainwashed puppet, but rather that it’s difficult and you don’t achieve it by directly scripting a person’s thoughts.

The Elder Dragons very much are sentient – and sapient. The novel not only shows Kralkatorrik’s mind in a metaphorical sense, but depicts his perspective of the fight with Destiny’s Edge a few times, and how he intentionally sends his minions to thwart the being trying to enter his mind (Snaff).

Zhaitan throughout the personal story reacts – albeit at a distance, so all we hear are mighty roars – to his forces losing. Every time a champion of his dies, he roars. First in anger, then in fear. He had emotions, he was reacting. That is sentience. That is sapience.

The whole “Elder Dragons are forces of nature” that ArenaNet throws at us has been stated to be from the common Tyrian’s perspective due to their sheer power, and their distance.

But it isn’t true. They’re more than mindless beings.

They think. They react. They desire.

Re: Macha. If she can implant her communication, then with the proper training a mesmer can implant thoughts. Think Inception but with a lot less action.

Re: Grizwhirl. I disagree, but without explicitness it’s hard to argue anything beyond interpretation. It’s been too long since I played the storyline, but what I do recall is that it seemed more than just hypnotic spells (and aren’t those in of themselves brainwashing?). I also recall that you fall under the effects of the Grizwhirl if you choose to go to the secret meeting rather than ransack Uzolan’s place, and the effects are that everyone turns into monsters though you still hear their actual words (and you actually beat the crap out of Logan the Ogre).

I didn’t say that the dragons aren’t sentient at all, but that they aren’t sentient in the way humans are. They have a much more primal consciousness, I’d argue. I’d even say that is also the case with Mordremoth, in a way, eventhough he appears to do more precise thinking by himself instead of distrbuting it among his champions, being the dragon of mind.

I disagree concerning Macha. Perhaps it already took her proper training to implant communication? Later in the book, it is implied that the Krytan navy uses mesmers to communicate across ships in just the same way as Macha does, only over a greater distance. Prince Edair surrounded himself with an elite force, so I believe it is fair to assume that telepathic communication isn’t a basic spell.

Concerning the grizwhirl storyline, I have to admit that I also didn’t play it in a long time, so won’t say much. But as I said, I don’t want to deny a Mesmer can brainwash people. I simply think it isn’t an easy thing to do and it doesn’t come via directly scripting thoughts, at least in most cases. Elsewise, I couldn’t think of any reason why Tyria wouldn’t be completely controlled by mesmers. :P

Agroman.7190:

I simply think it isn’t an easy thing to do and it doesn’t come via directly scripting thoughts, at least in most cases. Elsewise, I couldn’t think of any reason why Tyria wouldn’t be completely controlled by mesmers. :P

Well in this case we look at the subject that’s being discussed, Countess anise, she isn’t just any mesmer, she’s quite powerfull. So while maybe yes not just any mesmer would be able to do this, i’m more than confident Anise would.

Agroman.7190:

I didn’t say that the dragons aren’t sentient at all, but that they aren’t sentient in the way humans are.

Sentience is sentience regardless of race or species.

Agroman.7190:

They have a much more primal consciousness, I’d argue. I’d even say that is also the case with Mordremoth, in a way, eventhough he appears to do more precise thinking by himself instead of distrbuting it among his champions, being the dragon of mind.

So does Kralkatorrik and by any indication, the other Elder Dragons.

Dragon champions are independent in their personality and actions, by in large. There is no indication that Elder Dragons “distribute” their mind or thinking amongst their champions.

Agroman.7190:

I disagree concerning Macha. Perhaps it already took her proper training to implant communication? Later in the book, it is implied that the Krytan navy uses mesmers to communicate across ships in just the same way as Macha does, only over a greater distance. Prince Edair surrounded himself with an elite force, so I believe it is fair to assume that telepathic communication isn’t a basic spell.

Complexity or basicness is irrelevant. If it can be done, it can be done. We know Anise is one of the two most prominent mesmers in Tyria – Jennah being the other. Few – if any – exceed their abilities. If it can be done, they’d be able to do it no doubt.

Agroman.7190:

But as I said, I don’t want to deny a Mesmer can brainwash people.

Isn’t that what you very much said before, however? That mesmers do not mess with people’s minds. This was why you think Anise didn’t do such – because, to quote, “It’s never really stated that mesmers can get directly into people’s head.”

Since just about every GW1 mesmer did that, I’m doubtful that its impossible, nor do I believe that it’s challenging.

Agroman.7190:

Elsewise, I couldn’t think of any reason why Tyria wouldn’t be completely controlled by mesmers. :P

Because it’s too much work, requires too much coordination, and requires being taught in techniques which aren’t commonplace in the modern era (think like comparing a tank operator of WWII’s era to a modern tank operator – their skill sets will be rather different, don’t you think?).

But let’s presume that a mesmer can mind control 5 other people. That means there’d have to be 1 mesmer for every 5 non-mesmers. If some aren’t controlled, then they’ll likely notice – over time – that mesmers are mind controlling others. And if that happens, revolt happens. Prejudice against mesmers that aren’t mind controlling, mass mayhem, genocide – or professioncide rather – occurs.

@dsslive: Agreed. That, however, would also lay close at hand that she could indeed be capable of warping time in a situation such as the one during Party Politics. Which was my original point.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sentience is sentience regardless of race or species.

Still, the human mind can hardly be compared to that of an Elder Dragon. I would argue that reaching into something as large and raw as a dragon’s mind is easier than getting into that of a human, but that it’s much more dangerous for the mesmer and harder to control anything within it due to its vast primal nature.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So does Kralkatorrik and by any indication, the other Elder Dragons.

Dragon champions are independent in their personality and actions, by in large. There is no indication that Elder Dragons “distribute” their mind or thinking amongst their champions.

Perhaps distribute was the wrong word for it. I always had the impression that the Elder Dragons let, or at least that Zhaitan lets his champions do most of the thinking and commanding for him, while he himself is largely the corruption/desire that fuels the champions.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Complexity or basicness is irrelevant. If it can be done, it can be done. We know Anise is one of the two most prominent mesmers in Tyria – Jennah being the other. Few – if any – exceed their abilities. If it can be done, they’d be able to do it no doubt.

You were talking of ‘proper training’, so I picked that up. That aside, I have no doubts Anise and Jennah are propably the most powerful mesmers alive and can pretty much do everything that is possible with that form of magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Isn’t that what you very much said before, however? That mesmers do not mess with people’s minds. This was why you think Anise didn’t do such – because, to quote, “It’s never really stated that mesmers can get directly into people’s head.”

Since just about every GW1 mesmer did that, I’m doubtful that its impossible, nor do I believe that it’s challenging.

As I said, I’m having difficulties to express what my point is while writing this in English. My native language is German. I absolutely don’t want to say that mesmers cannot mess with people’s head. There has been some misunderstanding in that. My point is that I highly doubt they can just take over another guys thoughts and do with them whatever they want, but that they depend a lot on trickery, hexes and illusions to pull the strings. I’m basically saying that mesmers don’t just do hostile takeover, because if they could do that all the time, there wouldn’t be any need to get in a fight. And I figured that in order to intervene as drastically as Anise does in Party Politics, a direct takeover would at least be partially necessary.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Because it’s too much work, requires too much coordination, and requires being taught in techniques which aren’t commonplace in the modern era (think like comparing a tank operator of WWII’s era to a modern tank operator – their skill sets will be rather different, don’t you think?).

I find the comparison a bit lacking, because modern tanks are pretty much better at everything when comparing them to WWII ones. A GW2 mesmer has a lot more raw power and a lot more reality altering than a GW1 mesmer, but the latter can interrupt spells in the fraction of a second and put hexes on other people’s minds which I believe would win in a direct fight. But actually, I believe mesmers still use interrupting spells and hexes, they just don’t fit well into GW2’s combat system.

Maybe you’re right and direct brain control is possible for a very skilled mesmer (and by ‘direct brain control’, once again, I don’t mean messing with minds via hexes, illusions, etc, I mean direct takeover). Still, I’d argue that it is extremly complex and advanced to do it. So I agree with the ‘too much work/coordination’ part. Which leads me to…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But let’s presume that a mesmer can mind control 5 other people. That means there’d have to be 1 mesmer for every 5 non-mesmers. If some aren’t controlled, then they’ll likely notice – over time – that mesmers are mind controlling others. And if that happens, revolt happens. Prejudice against mesmers that aren’t mind controlling, mass mayhem, genocide – or professioncide rather – occurs.

Once again, I totally agree. However, if mesmers could turn people on a regular basis, they could simply crush a revolt before it even started. This is why I doubt that they simply get into other people’s heads by such direct means.

However, I must admit that under the assumption that direct mind warping is difficult to do and something for more advanced mesmers, it is plausible that Anise did use something like this in Party Politics, given that she appeared to be very absent whenever Canach tried to talk to her. Still, I believe some time warping was involved as well.

On mind reading: I must confess I’m a bit confused as to why we’re getting hung up on the Elder Dragon snag. In that same book, Jennah enters Logan’s mind to experience his memories, and later on Faolain does the same thing with Caithe. We don’t need to hone in on Kralkatorrik and try to extrapolate on whether it’d work on normal races when we have concrete examples like those. Granted, neither of the subjects put up much mental resistance; Logan wanted Jennah in his head, and Caithe was a feverish wreck at the time.

On mind control: Again, the grizwhirl is an uncomfortably indirect example. It’s asuran magitech, and as much as I think on it I can’t name any magitech that emulates a spell or vice-versa. (Maybe asura gates, but compared to portals they work on an entirely different scale.) Mesmer magic, as has been debated above, is usually about illusions, not mind control- that is, changing the input, not the output. I know it sounds like semantics, but it’s an important distinction, since illusions allow for the possibility of the victim catching on to what’s happening and then refusing to act accordingly. The only candidate for outright mesmer mind control that I can think of is the Court spellbinders in Brisban Wildlands, but as they only ply that magic on skritt, whose minds are suggested to operate in a fundamentally different manner and, in a sense, are more basic, the example may be of limited applicability to other races. In that instance, it seemed to be a planted overriding directive, one the skritt were unable to refuse or resist.

Now, that said- puppeteering bodies without the mind’s consent, while never yet seen with a mesmer, has been observed in a surprising range of circumstances.

Agroman.7190:

Still, the human mind can hardly be compared to that of an Elder Dragon. I would argue that reaching into something as large and raw as a dragon’s mind is easier than getting into that of a human, but that it’s much more dangerous for the mesmer and harder to control anything within it due to its vast primal nature.

I wouldn’t compare them either.

But I think a many-thousands-year-old intelligent mind that has read the memories of everything it created (said ‘everything’ rising in the millions) would be superior, not inferior, to the human mind.

Agroman.7190:

Perhaps distribute was the wrong word for it. I always had the impression that the Elder Dragons let, or at least that Zhaitan lets his champions do most of the thinking and commanding for him, while he himself is largely the corruption/desire that fuels the champions.

Letting others command armies is vastly different than not being intelligent.

Agroman.7190:

My point is that I highly doubt they can just take over another guys thoughts and do with them whatever they want, but that they depend a lot on trickery, hexes and illusions to pull the strings. I’m basically saying that mesmers don’t just do hostile takeover, because if they could do that all the time, there wouldn’t be any need to get in a fight. And I figured that in order to intervene as drastically as Anise does in Party Politics, a direct takeover would at least be partially necessary.

I would argue that “a lot of trickery, hexes, and illusions to pull the strings” is a “hostile takeover”.

It’s not on the same level as, say, dragon corruption where the very foundation of free will is overridden, nor is it on the same level as the rewriting the Geth in Mass Effect 2 in which the personality is fully and totally changed while still retaining free will.

But it would still be forms of brainwashing and overall making another belief something that you want them to – which is the very foundation of the Grizwhirl, and the argument of what Anise did during Party Politics, which is nothing more than implanting thoughts, not enforcing change (which seems to now be what you’re talking about).

Agroman.7190:

I find the comparison a bit lacking, because modern tanks are pretty much better at everything when comparing them to WWII ones. A GW2 mesmer has a lot more raw power and a lot more reality altering than a GW1 mesmer, but the latter can interrupt spells in the fraction of a second and put hexes on other people’s minds which I believe would win in a direct fight. But actually, I believe mesmers still use interrupting spells and hexes, they just don’t fit well into GW2’s combat system.

The point was more that the common mesmer of GW1 and the common mesmer of GW2 utilize different skills.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Again, the grizwhirl is an uncomfortably indirect example.

It made people see illusions.

Recall this interview:

Esprits d’Orr : Are the illusions created by mesmers visible to anybody or only to the caster and the spell target ?

Angel McCoy : This depends. Casting an illusion that can only be seen by one person is an extremely advanced skill as it requires getting directly into an individual’s mind. Only the most skilled of mesmers can do this, and mesmers don’t talk about this ability. If people were to find out that mesmers could do this, it would prejudice people against mesmers and damage the trust and love mesmers work so hard to inspire in others.

No documentation of this ability exists outside the Mesmer community because the targets of this kind of spell don’t realize they’ve been duped. No one else can corroborate their experience either, so…it’s often explained away as battle fatigue. Even within the mesmer community, knowledge of this kind of spell is “need to know” only, which means only the most elder and experienced are initiated into the circle.

What the question is asking about? That is exactly what the Grizwhirl does. And Angel says that yes, it exists.

Though Angel apparently forgot that every mesmer did this in GW1. Which isn’t surprising given how many other times she messed up in lore interviews, which resulted in her and Bobby Stein saying that they’re “secondary lore” (I’m serious, until Angel, no interview ever contradicted in-game lore – certainly not on enough continuous occasions to require devs saying that lore is no longer canon).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Elder Dragons very much are sentient – and sapient. The novel not only shows Kralkatorrik’s mind in a metaphorical sense, but depicts his perspective of the fight with Destiny’s Edge a few times, and how he intentionally sends his minions to thwart the being trying to enter his mind (Snaff).

Zhaitan throughout the personal story reacts – albeit at a distance, so all we hear are mighty roars – to his forces losing. Every time a champion of his dies, he roars. First in anger, then in fear. He had emotions, he was reacting. That is sentience. That is sapience.

The whole “Elder Dragons are forces of nature” that ArenaNet throws at us has been stated to be from the common Tyrian’s perspective due to their sheer power, and their distance.

But it isn’t true. They’re more than mindless beings.

They think. They react. They desire.

Re: Macha. If she can implant her communication, then with the proper training a mesmer can implant thoughts. Think Inception but with a lot less action.

Re: Grizwhirl. I disagree, but without explicitness it’s hard to argue anything beyond interpretation. It’s been too long since I played the storyline, but what I do recall is that it seemed more than just hypnotic spells (and aren’t those in of themselves brainwashing?). I also recall that you fall under the effects of the Grizwhirl if you choose to go to the secret meeting rather than ransack Uzolan’s place, and the effects are that everyone turns into monsters though you still hear their actual words (and you actually beat the crap out of Logan the Ogre).

it’s a bit like lovecraftian horror really, the various entities are sapient, but for the most part (there are a few exceptions who interact with humans “normally”, like Nyarlathotep) are just so alien that they seem almost bestial.

it’s like how an ant would view a human: some unknowable gigantic thing that crushes and destroys. it clearly doesn’t react to any pheromones, so it’s probably not sentient, and there’s absolutely nothing that can be done against it. it’s justa force of nature that you can only TRY to survive against.

of course, being humans, we know we aren’t unstoppable forces of nature, we’re just humans, and we are obviously sapient, we just don’t know how to understand the ants.

against the elder dragons, we are the ants.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Mesmer magic, as has been debated above, is usually about illusions, not mind control- that is, changing the input, not the output. I know it sounds like semantics, but it’s an important distinction, since illusions allow for the possibility of the victim catching on to what’s happening and then refusing to act accordingly.

Thank you – this sums up really well what I was trying to say the entire time.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I wouldn’t compare them either.

But I think a many-thousands-year-old intelligent mind that has read the memories of everything it created (said ‘everything’ rising in the millions) would be superior, not inferior, to the human mind.

I didn’t call the mind of an Elder Dragon inferior to that of a human or unintelligent, but more primal and simply different, sentient in a more alien way.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The point was more that the common mesmer of GW1 and the common mesmer of GW2 utilize different skills.

I know. But comparing the two makes it kind of clear that there wouldn’t be any sense to assume that mesmers just put aside what they commonly used in GW1, because it would be wasting a massive advantage. This is why I found the tank example a bit lacking, because it’s fair to assume that modern day tanks are better at pretty much everything.

Agroman.7190:

I didn’t call the mind of an Elder Dragon inferior to that of a human or unintelligent, but more primal and simply different, sentient in a more alien way.

“Primal” implies “less intelligent”, which is not what I would call the Elder Dragons.

Agroman.7190:

But comparing the two makes it kind of clear that there wouldn’t be any sense to assume that mesmers just put aside what they commonly used in GW1, because it would be wasting a massive advantage.

From a design perspective, this was done for the obvious change of style – GW2 is “flashier” than GW1, focused more on seeing the effect of things than reading words and images.

From a lore perspective, this could be explained away as a case of fear of stigmatism happening like with necromancy. It’s not showed well – like a lot of such things in GW2’s lore – but people fear necromancy more than any other profession. Part of it is simply the overlying tone of using corpses (something only sylvari lack), but a good portion is also the heavy overtone of necromantic threats (Zhaitan). Mesmers had apparently cobbled together a group – human only or multiracial is unknown – and they banned the use of this magic for one reason or another, and that reason is most likely fear of being treated the same as necromancers.

I wouldn’t necessarily put “primal” on a level with “less intelligent”. Perhaps “less civilized”, yes, but that isn’t the point.
Berserkers (by which I explicitly only mean the Warrior specialization) for example also rely on primal anger to gain power, but that doesn’t necessarily make them less intelligent than other fighters.
The mind of an Elder Dragon is so large and so heavily focussed on destroying/assimilating/devouring/etc that I can’t really see them wasting any thoughts about the subtleties that concern human beings, which are very much what a mesmer has to deal with in order to manipulate their enemies. I believe with all that missing, it shouldn’t have been such a big deal for Anise and Jennah to merely “touch” the mind of Kralkatorrik, who had just awakened and was pretty much on rampage. Perhaps an Elder Dragon’s mind is even so large that they don’t even notice something as small as a human mind. Manipulating anything within and even staying connected with it after Kralky has noticed what’s going on is a different story.

Edit: The question raised by the idea that mesmers perhaps banned those spells out of fear is – why now, if it was deemed acceptable during GW1?

Agroman.7190:

I wouldn’t necessarily put “primal” on a level with “less intelligent”. Perhaps “less civilized”, yes, but that isn’t the point.
Berserkers (by which I explicitly only mean the Warrior specialization) for example also rely on primal anger to gain power, but that doesn’t necessarily make them less intelligent than other fighters.
The mind of an Elder Dragon is so large and so heavily focussed on destroying/assimilating/devouring/etc that I can’t really see them wasting any thoughts about the subtleties that concern human beings, which are very much what a mesmer has to deal with in order to manipulate their enemies. I believe with all that missing, it shouldn’t have been such a big deal for Anise and Jennah to merely “touch” the mind of Kralkatorrik, who had just awakened and was pretty much on rampage. Perhaps an Elder Dragon’s mind is even so large that they don’t even notice something as small as a human mind. Manipulating anything within and even staying connected with it after Kralky has noticed what’s going on is a different story.

Edit: The question raised by the idea that mesmers perhaps banned those spells out of fear is – why now, if it was deemed acceptable during GW1?

I don’t think mesmers banned those spells. What happened was hexes became represented either by conditions or by the phantasm/clones. Skills like backfire they tried to put on the torch but it was not possible. So gw2 mesmer should be combined with gw1 when you assume mesmer ability.

What the mesmer collective did was make certain skills only known to probably the human nobility. Spells that not only would cause fear but would also unbalance the power of a monarchy that had a monopoly on mind controlling political rivals.

Well, the nobility part is heavy speculation, but plausible.

Still, I don’t see the need for restriction for something that was commonly used by mesmers beforehand if we assume they did it out of fear to be in the same spot as necros, who are in that spot because of the negative things associated with undead (Khilbron, Zhaitan, Joko, etc). But as Konig said, that’s propably due to Angel McCoy messing up lore.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t think mesmers banned those spells. What happened was hexes became represented either by conditions or by the phantasm/clones. Skills like backfire they tried to put on the torch but it was not possible. So gw2 mesmer should be combined with gw1 when you assume mesmer ability.

I agree. I think there comes a point where some apparent differences in function between GW1 & 2 professions is simply game mechanics.

GW1 illusions weren’t specifically visible to only the person affected, anyone could see when someone was afflicted by a mesmer’s phantasm for instance, just because it wasn’t a purple entity on the field doesn’t mean the function wasn’t identical in lore.

Likewise I think a lot of the mesmer’s mind affecting/influencing spells are still there just not so explicitly stated through spell names like panic or guilt. Confusion is sort of the catch all for the reactionary hexes from GW1 so skills like empathy are inferred to still be there when mesmers inflict confusion, likewise mesmers interrupt abilities are all mental manipulation as opposed to warriors or rangers who just interrupt someone with a knock over the head. So that is to say mesmers invoke panic, or guilt, etc. in their target to interrupt them.

Agroman.7190:

I wouldn’t necessarily put “primal” on a level with “less intelligent”. Perhaps “less civilized”, yes, but that isn’t the point.
Berserkers (by which I explicitly only mean the Warrior specialization) for example also rely on primal anger to gain power, but that doesn’t necessarily make them less intelligent than other fighters.
The mind of an Elder Dragon is so large and so heavily focussed on destroying/assimilating/devouring/etc that I can’t really see them wasting any thoughts about the subtleties that concern human beings, which are very much what a mesmer has to deal with in order to manipulate their enemies. I believe with all that missing, it shouldn’t have been such a big deal for Anise and Jennah to merely “touch” the mind of Kralkatorrik, who had just awakened and was pretty much on rampage. Perhaps an Elder Dragon’s mind is even so large that they don’t even notice something as small as a human mind. Manipulating anything within and even staying connected with it after Kralky has noticed what’s going on is a different story.

Primal is not destructive but primitive – or first. Primitive tends to mean less advanced, less intelligent, and less civilized.

As for “not noticing”, you need to read (or re-read) Edge of Destiny. Because Kralkatorrik most definitely noticed Snaff and Jennah/Anise. Jennah/Anise reeled because of Kralkatorrik’s mind. Snaff definitely saw something comprehensible even upon first looking into Kralkatorrik’s mind. And I’ll note that Kralkatorrik definitely noticed Snaff before he began manipulating.

Agroman.7190:

Edit: The question raised by the idea that mesmers perhaps banned those spells out of fear is – why now, if it was deemed acceptable during GW1?

Times change.

Though, IIRC, all dialogue on mesmerism in GW1 was more about conjuring phantasms and interrupting foes rather than the non-beginner skills we see which were about getting into your opponent’s mind per skill name and action. So even in GW1, the more “direct mind manipulation” tended to not be the commonly taught stuff.

I read Edge of Destiny pre-release, so it’s been a while, admittedly, since I found that book to be absolutely horrible. The “not noticing” part was just an unconnected idea that came to my mind, hasn’t got much to do with my actual point, but I do remember that Kralkatorrik noticed Snaff – however that was a different kind of mind control. Nevermind.

Times change, yes, but I don’t see the point of regressing in something as potent and powerful as mesmer magic, given that since GW2, or at least since the Living Story, Anet is very keen on presenting Tyria as a very.. let’s say more sophisticated and open-minded world concerning international matters (which I find to be quite annoying, but that’s a different story). But I don’t recall the GW1 beginner dialogues on mesmerism either, so that might be true.