Are Sylvari Necromancers incapable of some of the self-sacrificial magic done in necromancy, including becoming a Lich?
Absolutely not, there’s Killeen in the the book Ghosts of Ascalon that was quite a competent Necromancer along with Trahearne.
I think that only Draconic energies can cancel each other out, otherwise it would be known that Necromancer would be at a disadvantage when fighting Rangers, it wouldn’t be a recent discovery. Dragon magic properties can’t be applied to the magic other creatures use
Sylvari have a more objective view of death that makes it more socially acceptable to meddle with death magic. See Undertaker Diarmad in Divinity’s Reach has interesting dialogue concerning this. ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undertaker_Diarmad )
(edited by Djahlat.9610)
Absolutely not, there’s Killeen in the the book Ghosts of Ascalon that was quite a competent Necromancer along with Trahearne.
I think that only Draconic energies can cancel each other out, otherwise it would be known that Necromancer would be at a disadvantage when fighting Rangers, it wouldn’t be a recent discovery. Dragon magic properties can’t be applied to the magic other creatures use
Sylvari have a more objective view of death that makes it more socially acceptable to meddle with death magic. See Undertaker Diarmad in Divinity’s Reach has interesting dialogue concerning this. ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undertaker_Diarmad )
Do we ever see them use spells that self corrupt?
Also plant and death cancel, so neither receives advantages.
Do we ever see them use spells that self corrupt?
Also plant and death cancel, so neither receives advantages.
To my knowledge, we haven’t seen NPCs of any race use the ‘Corruption’ subset of necro abilities- but sylvari PCs certainly have no greater difficulty using them.
As for what we do see, sylvari seem, if anything, to be the race that leans most heavily towards necromancy. The Nightmare Court is second only to the Ash Legion for prevalence of necromancers, and the sylvari can claim the two strongest (living) ones that we see in-game, Trahearne and Brangoire.
Trahearne is an example of a very powerful necromancer. True their bodies arent fit for necromancy, at oeast I havent seen any resurrected foliage yet. But plants dont neceissarily negate death. I mean, plants are just organic matter, too. They die, wilter. Even though its not shown ingame, Inthink you can make a dead oakheart.
And youre confusing one thing. The undead of Orr are risen. They are fundamentally different from normal undead because theyre corrupted with dragon magic. Sylvari are immune not because theyre plants but because theyre mordrem. Sylvari are not just made from plant magic. Theyre born from the pale tree, which is just a blighting tree thats not under mordremoth’s command.
Also, necromancy has a very light tone in this universe. You dont have to corrupt yourself at all. In fact, necromancers are very revered in human society because they are responsible for the last rites of their predecessors
(edited by Amaimon.7823)
It was mentioned a while back that sylvari tend to veer towards necromancy more than any other race – followed by humans and asura – because unlike the other races, sylvari do not view death as a ‘bad’ thing but just another part of life.
As for the first point about plant and death negating each other, this seems to be solely within the realm of draconic energy otherwise, as mentioned, it’d be a long known fact that plant magic (such as used by rangers) and death magic (such as used by necromancers) negate each other and wouldn’t be a recently discovered notion. Same with elementalists using fire and ice magic at the same (or subsequent) time.
About “no undead sylvari” and “Caladbolg neutralized Orr” – this is, again, all about draconic energies. Even then, the latter isn’t a case of plant and death magic neutralizing each other, given that the magic that utilized Caladbolg as a focal point was neither sylvari/Pale Tree magic, nor negated by Zhaitan’s corruption but overwhelming it. For no undead sylvari, we just know there are no risen sylvari and that’s a huge difference since risen are not traditional undead – we do not know if sylvari could be turned into traditional undead because we, simply, do not see traditional Tyrian undead in GW2. Though I’m doubtful we’ll ever see undead sylvari simply because of how fast sylvari corpses wither and rot – in Ghosts of Ascalon, mere minutes after her death, Killeen is withering and drying up.
As for the final bullet point, necromancy does not corrupt the self while using it. You’re mistaking a mere line of skills, purely mechanical at least, into a notion of the entire profession which is by far false.
Necromancers aren’t revered in Krytan or Ascalonian society. They’re grudgingly accepted and often outright feared by the more ignorant, either out of suspicion of being linked to the Risen or simply out of superstitious fear of dark magic. However, they’re accepted in part because they’re linked to Grenth, and because those in power recognise that the usefulness of necromancers outweighs the risk of one going rogue. Ghosts of Ascalon has a discussion of some of this, but there’s also evidence of anti-necro prejudice in GW1, and I think there is an ambient discussion or two around Kryta indicating that many humans there have a less than flattering view of necromancers.
Off the top of my head, I think House Durheim of the Kurzicks is the only human society where necromancers are regarded as being the profession to be. It’s usually, at best, one choice among many, with others being viewed as more honourable.
Among the other races:
Asura might be the race where necromancers come closest to being revered. They have no prejudice against death magic, and some of their best golemancers have been necromancers. Now, I get the impression that golemancy does not actually require necromancy and can be done, possibly using different means, by a number of professions: at worst, though, necromancers among asura seem to be regarded as being similarly on par with mesmers or elementalists, maybe a little lower due to having less ability to bend the laws of physics in their favour.
Charr have their general prejudice against magic, but necromancers seem to be less prejudiced against than some others. I suspect this might be because necromancers were always associated with Ash rather than Flame, but I don’t think this has ever been officially confirmed.
Norn seem to have a similar attitude to humans regarding necromancy, being wigged out by the idea of they or anyone they know being animated as a minion… but they have the norn ‘judge everybody on their own merits’ attitude.
Regarding sylvari, and coming back to the original topic:
Sylvari appear to have no prejudice against necromancy, but it tends to be an uncommon choice among sylvari nonetheless: most sylvari prefer to associate themselves with life rather than death. However, those who do choose necromancy are simply viewed as being a little odd rather than being a potential threat.
From what we see ingame, there appears to be no hindrance towards sylvari learning the sort of “clean” forms of necromancy that are available to player characters. Trahearne’s goes a little beyond what player characters could do, with things like being able to summon multiple Flesh Golems.
However, it is possible that sylvari aren’t able to go that one step further into the sorts of things liches and their ilk pull off. They may face some limitation that they cannot animate sapient undead as was done by Khilbron and Joko, or be animated as undead (sapient or otherwise) themselves. Essentially, it’s possible that they can achieve lesser workings of death magic without problem, but something about their nature might mean that they are incompatible with more powerful forms of death magic.
If this is the case, however, we’re unlikely to find out short of a direct conflict with Palawa Joko or some other non-Risen lich.
Necromancers aren’t revered in Krytan or Ascalonian society. They’re grudgingly accepted and often outright feared by the more ignorant, either out of suspicion of being linked to the Risen or simply out of superstitious fear of dark magic. However, they’re accepted in part because they’re linked to Grenth, and because those in power recognise that the usefulness of necromancers outweighs the risk of one going rogue. Ghosts of Ascalon has a discussion of some of this, but there’s also evidence of anti-necro prejudice in GW1, and I think there is an ambient discussion or two around Kryta indicating that many humans there have a less than flattering view of necromancers.
The average necromancer is shunned, perhaps, but the onces that take care of the final rites for humans are revered though, that’s been mentioned several times. Its because the final rites are a very important part in the griefing process of humans, and not having had those is considered a big failure (or however you want to call it). But then again, since the necromancers in charge of these rites are revered while the freelance necromancer is shunned, maybe they’re not considered necromancers by the common folk, but more something along the line of priest or ritualist.
Do note, revering and not being scared of are not mutually exclusive. It’s possible to hold great respect for someone, but still be scared of them because you don’t understand how their work works
That’s priests, and the priests who perform the final rites aren’t necessarily priests of Grenth, let alone necromancers. It seems that the performers of the final rites are the priests of whatever deity the fallen (or their family) was closest to – for instance, in the Ossuary of Unquiet Dead story step, the rites we see being performed are being performed by a priestess of Lyssa, who is most likely a mesmer.
@konig. I never said it was all of necromancy, there are many branches to each field. Now this was more seen in Gw1, but there was a sizable part of necromancy that involves damaging the self in exchange for power.
As to your other point we don’t know whether dragon fire/ice is ele fire/ice. It could be ele fire/ necro ice. In which case it wouldn’t be well known as it would simply resemble melting/extinguishing, and bad mixtures would be blamed on the bloodstones. Also I think we have been using plant magic (besides the druids) only recently.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
That ‘damaging the self’ is just a case of bloodletting. Literally, shedding your blood to fuel your spells. Hence why it’s called “Blood Magic”.
If Taimi’s right, then it’s definitely not necro ice because there’s no dragon that has that. Zhaitan was death magic and had no relation to ice; Jormag is ice but has no relation to necromancy.
Plus, it’s all ice magic, not “ele ice magic” or “necro ice magic”.
Which is where the whole ‘all magic is dragon magic’ thing Taimi presented messes up because if all magic is the same as dragon magic and certain kinds of magic cancel each other out then it should have been a long known fact that they would. Ergo, by logic, Taimi must be wrong on one side or the other.
As for using plant magic in the past… maybe, maybe not. Rangers have always been a bit questionable about their magic. Plus, with gw2 rangers using all elements (fire, lightning, ice, and earth/plant), seems to me that they’re using the same kinds of magic as elementalists and dervishes but focused more on plants than the raw elements. One could call the entire sphere of all elemental magic as ‘nature magic’ really.
Which, again, makes the Season 3 “revelations” to be weird as hell.
Which is where the whole ‘all magic is dragon magic’ thing Taimi presented messes up because if all magic is the same as dragon magic and certain kinds of magic cancel each other out then it should have been a long known fact that they would.
Omg thanks that’s what I was trying to say in my previous answer but didn’t really know how to phrase it.
Concerning plant magic, aren’t all Sylvari capable of it? I remember an interview (with Ree Soesbee I believe) where they would explain racial skills, and Sylvari’s efficiency at plant-shaping magic, especially to build their habitats and clothes and whatnot. They’re a recent race, but still more ancient to Tyria than the Druids (the elite spec, not the extinct civilization)
Sylvari are plant zombys – their bodys are based on human corpses, some facial skins show this and their mordrem cousins show it as well – you can’t be more necromanth as a sylvari!
Ask thraherne!
That ‘damaging the self’ is just a case of bloodletting. Literally, shedding your blood to fuel your spells. Hence why it’s called “Blood Magic”.
If Taimi’s right, then it’s definitely not necro ice because there’s no dragon that has that. Zhaitan was death magic and had no relation to ice; Jormag is ice but has no relation to necromancy.
Plus, it’s all ice magic, not “ele ice magic” or “necro ice magic”.
Which is where the whole ‘all magic is dragon magic’ thing Taimi presented messes up because if all magic is the same as dragon magic and certain kinds of magic cancel each other out then it should have been a long known fact that they would. Ergo, by logic, Taimi must be wrong on one side or the other.
As for using plant magic in the past… maybe, maybe not. Rangers have always been a bit questionable about their magic. Plus, with gw2 rangers using all elements (fire, lightning, ice, and earth/plant), seems to me that they’re using the same kinds of magic as elementalists and dervishes but focused more on plants than the raw elements. One could call the entire sphere of all elemental magic as ‘nature magic’ really.
Which, again, makes the Season 3 “revelations” to be weird as hell.
Damaging the self also includes certain curses, not just bloodletting.
Calling it all ice magic is confusing. Ele and necro have magic that make ice. But because of the bloodstones the cannot be the same type of magic. Moreover there is an ice and a water dragon.
You are focusing too much on the names. Death doesn’t line up with what we know too be death magic. It only uses the reanimation/poison part.
Presumably the water dragon will also cancel with kralkatorrik somehow in this way.
There are no contradictions. Warmth would have canceled cold from the beginning.
The Bloodstones stopped being important. Devs confirmed this. Their separation of magic was thinned even by GW1’s time (explanation for secondary professions) and have only furthered since due to the increase of magic in the world (namely by the Elder Dragons).
And, tbh, you’re the one too focused on names if you feel the necessity to rename them.
And there is a contradiction:
Necromancy doesn’t cancel out ranger magic. Just as it doesn’t cancel out monk magic (“life”). Just as an elementalist’s fire magic (or guardian’s fire, or berserker’s fire) cancel out an elementalist’s ice magic (or a necromancer’s ice).
No magic ever cancels each other out… except when used by the Elder Dragons, and even then, the only case we see is a pair of two very unique, very rare, and very weak creatures that can barely be called dragon minions (for all we know, it isn’t the explosion of plant/death magic, but rather the explosion of magic that damaged the Unstable Icebrood Abomination).
So there is a contradiction. It cannot logically be that both “all magic is dragon magic” and that “dragon magic is divided into a spectrum where different types of magic cancel each other out”. Otherwise we would have seen this canceling out.
Regardless of the labels you want to put on the divisions of magic.
The Bloodstones stopped being important. Devs confirmed this. Their separation of magic was thinned even by GW1’s time (explanation for secondary professions) and have only furthered since due to the increase of magic in the world (namely by the Elder Dragons).
And, tbh, you’re the one too focused on names if you feel the necessity to rename them.
And there is a contradiction:
Necromancy doesn’t cancel out ranger magic. Just as it doesn’t cancel out monk magic (“life”). Just as an elementalist’s fire magic (or guardian’s fire, or berserker’s fire) cancel out an elementalist’s ice magic (or a necromancer’s ice).
No magic ever cancels each other out… except when used by the Elder Dragons, and even then, the only case we see is a pair of two very unique, very rare, and very weak creatures that can barely be called dragon minions (for all we know, it isn’t the explosion of plant/death magic, but rather the explosion of magic that damaged the Unstable Icebrood Abomination).
So there is a contradiction. It cannot logically be that both “all magic is dragon magic” and that “dragon magic is divided into a spectrum where different types of magic cancel each other out”. Otherwise we would have seen this canceling out.
Regardless of the labels you want to put on the divisions of magic.
Canceling implies equal and opposite. There is nothing equal between the divisions of dragon magic and regular.
Even if the bloodstone no longer applies, the spellcasters still largely stick to the preexisting divisions..
Perhaps we could accidentally partially cancel something. But would we have the technology to recognize that? Or would heat and cold cancelling just be consider a natural phenomenon.
I don’t understand how it would be obvious.
You’re directly claiming that not only what Taimi says, but also what we see happen in-game, is false.
We see when fighting the Unstable Abomination in S3E3 that death and plant magic cancel each other out in equal quantities, not that plant overrides death (which, again would be noticed with necromancy vs ranger magic), but that both plant cancels out death and death cancels out plant.
I would disagree that spellcasters still largely stick to divisions – we see a lot more magic that would be considered preservation magic throughout all professions (professions being more capable of healing on a broad spectrum), as well as, potentially, destruction and aggression.
And I think that a necromancer using a spell and the spell being fully negated with harmful aftereffects if a ranger use a nature spell next to them would indeed be “having the technology to recognize that”. Or an elementalist using fire and ice magic adjacent/at the same time resulting in their magic going kaboom in a very literal sense, for that matter.
Death and plant magic being in the air next to each other in E3 causes physical harm to the creatures tied to the other magic. So at the very least, risen would have a natural weakness to sylvari/rangers, and mordrem would have a natural and very physical weakness to necromancy, if not the professions themselves, but this was never ever noted.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Or an elementalist using fire and ice magic adjacent/at the same time resulting in their magic going kaboom in a very literal sense, for that matter.
Come to think of it, this is probably worth stressing. Best I remember, what we saw in that fight wasn’t powers getting negated or canceled out. When the minion acting as a vessel for one kind of magic died, we saw the energy leave its body and cause a violent reaction with vessels imbued with the other kind of magic, creating a very conspicuous explosion. One would imagine somebody would’ve taken note if Trahearne had given off gouts of sap every time he cast a spell.
@Konig. I believe you have misunderstood.
“Canceling implies equal and opposite. There is nothing equal between the divisions of dragon magic and regular.”
All magic is dragon magic, but the regular divisions aren’t 1:1 in concentration or composition to their corrupted forms.
We can assume corruption is highly concentrated based on the theory of dragonic-enhanto consumption and its parallels to djinn production/Unnatural Growths.
It’s likely the magic inside dragons, which they exude during sleep, is less concentrated. This is why Primordius, Jormag and Mordremoth can’t make vine/mordem+death-touched minions, but they don’t explode upon receiving large amounts of opposing magic..
Without a thaumanova reactor, mortals won’t experience any surprising explosions. All uninteresting cancellations are seen as the status quo. Noticeable but lackluster interactions like:
Moreover I don’t think equal low dose cancellations would be common during experimentation. I doubt the domains perfectly align with schools of magic. The bloodstones appear to arbitrarily mimic the aspects of the Gods rather than the dragon domains. And like light, only complementary bands in the spectrum of magic would cancel.
We know for a fact the spellcasters largely stick to the schools because we were told as much by Angel McCoy.
I love that idea, as do many people living in Tyria. The reality, however, is that only the most powerful have the time and energy to do this. It’s like getting two doctorate degrees, one in medicine and one in engineering. Few have the time to do this, and usually, an individual doesn’t want to turn her back on everything she’s already learned to start a new magical discipline. She’d much rather continue advancing her knowledge in the discipline she’s invested decades in. Some, however, may dabble and experiment with specific spells. If a master elementalist can find a mesmer to teach her to produce an illusion, then she may explore ways to combine them. Most professions keep their secrets close to their chests though. And, the danger of a conflict between magical energies and thus, an explosion, is very real.
“Dabbling” with a specific spell is not mastering a highly concentrated interdisciplinary spell to produce magic of the exact band equivalent to a domain.
I think you give the mages too much credit, and you downplay the importance of 200+ years of progress in Tyria.
Your computer is using the RGB model of light. It took 200+ years after Newton’s Opticks for the trichomatic theory of color vision to be developed, and the correct wheel to be establish.
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